Big Holes - Little Holes

[Davenpete]

Something I've been pondering recently - WHY do US 45s have big holes when their 78s, LPs and EPs have small holes like British releases necessitating the use of adapters when switching between vinyl formats?

Dx

[Winsford Soul]

32 minutes ago, Davenpete said:

Something I've been pondering recently - WHY do US 45s have big holes when their 78s, LPs and EPs have small holes like British releases necessitating the use of adapters when switching between vinyl formats?

Dx

Dave. That's one of those questions of life that we all would have thought of at some stage on this mad soul journey we have taken Good luck with your quest  

[Scooterboy]

8 minutes ago, Winsford Soul said:

Dave. That's one of those questions of life that we all would have thought of at some stage on this mad soul journey we have taken Good luck with your quest  

Er...I had never thought of it until now.

I hang my head in shame...

 

[Simon T]

Jukeboxes? Preponderance of them in US to UK. Higher turn over of records in the US and need for the bar, diner owners to have to 'dib' them?

[Winsford Soul]

16 minutes ago, Scooterboy said:

Er...I had never thought of it until now.

I hang my head in shame...

 

And deservedly so Chris

[The Yank]

According to Steve Propes and Jim Dawson' book  "45 rpm- The Heroes & Villains........" , it was  a matter of convenience and to minimize stress on the records. Record changers which made it possible to stack discs on top of each other were popular. They found out that with 78's, that the records were getting chipped  or cracked. So, to minimize damage on the 45's, engineers found out that a large center hole reduced friction and other stresses from record changers.

[45cellar]

I found this on YouTube.

It appears that RCA Auto change Players for 45's may have had something to do with this.

 

[Rick Cooper]

As Simon T has already said I understood the large hole was mainly because of the jukeboxes. Trying to get the small hole of a record onto a spindle was probably too hard for the selection system, easier to have large hole and a bevelled dome. 

In the mid 1960s my dad had a Garrard turntable that instead of the Dansette type 45 stacking system had a large hole stack adaptor that could be fitted in the small centre hole of the turntable. It wasn't much use as he only played LPs and I didn't have any US singles. He got rid of the turntable just as it would have been useful, I've never seen another one.

[Davenpete]

Interesting - that they didn't then adopt the pop-out centres we did here, or that conversely juke box suppliers had to dink out the centres over here whereas juke box interest took primacy in the Colonies.
Another point is that 33 1/3 EPs like Willie Mitchell etc remained undinked (even when made for juke boxes - my old Driving Beat EP even included platic JB selection tabs and little promo repros of the cover). 
Dx

Edited February 11, 2021 by Davenpete

[The Yank]

Just a few clarifications- some companies did try out pop- out centers but it never really caught on. 45 rpm EP's did have large center holes, EP's that played at 33 had the small center holes . 

 

[The Yank]

On 10/02/2021 at 11:41, Simon T said:

Jukeboxes? Preponderance of them in US to UK.

I don't think jukeboxes had anything to do with 45's having large center holes. The 1st jukebox to play 45's wasn't produced until over a year and a half after 45's were being manufactured.  From Billboard November 4, 1950- 

Edited February 11, 2021 by The Yank

[Pga1]

9 hours ago, Rick Cooper said:

As Simon T has already said I understood the large hole was mainly because of the jukeboxes. Trying to get the small hole of a record onto a spindle was probably too hard for the selection system, easier to have large hole and a bevelled dome. 

In the mid 1960s my dad had a Garrard turntable that instead of the Dansette type 45 stacking system had a large hole stack adaptor that could be fitted in the small centre hole of the turntable. It wasn't much use as he only played LPs and I didn't have any US singles. He got rid of the turntable just as it would have been useful, I've never seen another one.

Hello Rick, I used to have a few various adaptors. I still have one like you mentioned and it's still in its cardboard box. It's a cream / beige colour if I remember. Not sure where it is but it's definitely here somewhere. I'll have to try and dig it out now or it'll bug me, cheers, pete

[Rick Cooper]

7 hours ago, Pga1 said:

Hello Rick, I used to have a few various adaptors. I still have one like you mentioned and it's still in its cardboard box. It's a cream / beige colour if I remember. Not sure where it is but it's definitely here somewhere. I'll have to try and dig it out now or it'll bug me, cheers, pete

Hi Pete,

After a quick search it seems the record player my dad had was a Garrard Type A from the late 50s early 60s. A YT video shows one in use but, although the commentary mentions the 45 stacking adaptor it doesn't show one. It looks like the one in 45cellar photo but , as you say, was a cream colour. It seems odd that a UK company would make a turntable that could only use large holes 45s for multiple plays. Maybe the industry thought large holes would become the norm here. The turntable could also play at 78, 45, 33 and 16 and stack 10 inch as well as 12 inch LPs so it looks like they were trying to cover all bases.

 

 

Thanks to @The Yank for helping with the large holes question. Is there any info or photos from when 7 inch 45s were first introduced in the US and why the large hole was introduced?

Edited February 12, 2021 by Rick Cooper

[The Yank]

The 1st 45 produced was "Pee Wee The Piccolo" on Dec. 7.1948. The 1st 45 released was Eddy Arnold "Boquet Of Roses" on March 31, 1949. The larger center hole was used  to reduce friction and minimize damage on the 45 discs.

 

[The Yank]

One of the 1st advertisements for 45's - 

 

[Rick Cooper]

36 minutes ago, The Yank said:

One of the 1st advertisements for 45's - 

 

My reading of the RCA advert is that the 45 disc had the large hole specifically for the RCA invented automatic record changer. The problem of damage and wear to previous 78s was solved by "non-breakable vinyl plastic". I can't see a large hole reducing friction providing the holes were always accurate and a consistent diameter. The old small hole wouldn't have any friction as the spindle turned with the turntable. I've had a few UK discs that were a very tight fit on the spindle but played fine. I suppose removing a tight fit record could lead to damage on the brittle edge of a 78 but vinyl has a lot more give.

[45cellar]

I think that on an auto change system the large hole records would drop more horizontal and less likely to tilt than a small hole record would.

The small hole auto change required the arm to steady the stack of records.

[The Yank]

55 minutes ago, Rick Cooper said:

. I can't see a large hole reducing friction providing the holes were always accurate and a consistent diameter. The old small hole wouldn't have any friction as the spindle turned with the turntable. I've had a few UK discs that were a very tight fit on the spindle but played fine. I suppose removing a tight fit record could lead to damage on the brittle edge of a 78 but vinyl has a lot more give.

Hi- Just wanted to let you know this is not a "theory" I came up with. I took the information from a book. I happen to agree with the authors. If you don't- I think you should contact them and tell them why you think their information is wrong.  Thanks ! 

     Here's a group of RCA executives promoting the new 45 record and turntable in April of 1949- 

 

[Davenpete]

Whilst I don't disagree that they may have THOUGHT it reduced friction, by definition the greater surface area of the inside of the large hole would have resulted in greater friction, not less. I'm still intrigued as to why this wasn't thought an issue in the UK.

Dx

[45cellar]

This explains the large hole auto change system quite well.

Worth watching from 5 minutes in.

 

[Pga1]

Hello Rick, while looking for something else today I've found one of the spindle adaptors. Boxed as well. Model R,C. 80 for 7" , 10" & 12" records, printed on the box. It's a shame I'm tech useless as I would have sent photo, cheers

[Rick Cooper]

57 minutes ago, Pga1 said:

Hello Rick, while looking for something else today I've found one of the spindle adaptors. Boxed as well. Model R,C. 80 for 7" , 10" & 12" records, printed on the box. It's a shame I'm tech useless as I would have sent photo, cheers

I found this picture for the Garrard rc 80. The big column shown here is the same as the one I remember on my dad's turntable and like the US RCA one. They didn't seem to catch on here so we got stuck with the old system that had a habit of dropping 2 or 3 singles at a time.

 

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/garrard/rc80.shtml

 

[Pga1]

Hello Rick, thank you. Yep, that's exactly the same one as I have here. Must have come from one of our old stereograms. I remember our first stand alone turntable and separate speakers (barring old Dansettes) I'd come from all nighter at coalville or Wigan oldies and collected jumping at the go go album I'd ordered. Got home and deck was temporarily set up on the kitchen table. My mum and dad were dancing together to ' Percy wggins' and they both said ' we like this one our Pete'  and I'm thinking nooo my street cred, you're to old to like this. Always makes me smile when I think back, cheers

[Pga1]

Ps. As a young sprog, Garrard was king and ownership bragging was allowed, cheers

[45cellar]

This one is different.

I haven't seen one before.

It even handles LP's

 

[45cellar]

On 14/02/2021 at 16:23, Rick Cooper said:

I found this picture for the Garrard rc 80. The big column shown here is the same as the one I remember on my dad's turntable and like the US RCA one. They didn't seem to catch on here so we got stuck with the old system that had a habit of dropping 2 or 3 singles at a time.

 

https://www.vinylengine.com/library/garrard/rc80.shtml

 

The small hole auto changer did have a habit of dropping more than one at a time.

The amount of label scrub when trying to position them over the spindle too.

I would never dream of pushing out the center of a UK record but can't help but love the large hole center records for handling and ease of use. Especially with a tapered adapter on a single play deck.

Together with the large hole auto changer they are perfectly engineered and more positive in operation.

Those RCA Engineers certainly knew their stuff.