specials "I can't find another" on Sansu?

[Ljblanken]

I just noticed that Soulfulkindamusic lists the Specials single as being on Sansu (as well as the Satch issue)... I have never seen one on Sansu. Anyone have a pic? Just curious...

 

https://www.soulfulkindamusic.net/specials.htm

 

[Robbk]

I've never seen  a Specials' record on Sansu (no surprise, as it's from 1976).  But I'm pretty sure I have a Specials' record from '61 or '62 on a dark green Sara Record, the colour of which looks like Sansu's.  Sara was a subsidiary of James Kirchstein's Cuca Records, located in Sauk City, Wisconsin (southwest of Milwaukee).  But, because of the 15 years difference in their timing, they most likely wouldn't be mistaken for each other, and most likely are not the same group.

Of course, you all know that Cuca had mainly Caucasian Pop and Country artists other than Harvey Scales and The 7 Sounds.  But, its subsidiary, Sara Records, had a fair amount of Milwaukee and Chicago late '50s and early '60s R&B (no mid or late '60s Soul of which I am aware, however).  So, perhaps The Specials on Sara were from Chicago.  Unfortunately, I'm stuck in L.A. away from most of my 45s, so I can't look it up. 

I didn't find The Specials on 45- Cat's Sara Records discography, and Global Dog doesn't have a San-Su discography.  It is neither listed on 45 Cat's nor Discog's SanSu discography.  But, both of those websites' discographies are very far from being complete.  My Premiers' record on Sara is also not on those discographies.

Interesting discovery: While googling for The specials on Sara, I found a photo of James Kirchstein's building complex, which housed Cuca's studio, and a record shop/music store, and a novelty/toy shop, at different times, and it had a logo for Cuca, Sara, AND NIGHT OWL RECORDS on the top of one side of the building!!!!  So, now I know that in late 1963,  when Don Talty and Jan Bradley wanted to release her Curtis Mayfield-written and co-produced "Behind The Curtains", after Chess refused to lease any more Mayfield-related productions, it WASN'T Mayfield-Talty-Bradley who owned that label, but, rather, Talty and Bradley went to Talty's old colleague, James Kirchstein to press it up.  Talty was originally from Wisconsin (I'm pretty sure from Milwaukee), so the two of them must have crossed paths, because the music industry there was very small, and had very few people involved.  I have since seen several other Night Owl records that I never saw while living in Chicagoland (which basically includes Wisconsin up to Milwaukee) while they were released.  ALL of them were Hard Rock, Garage, Country and Rockabilly.  I'm really surprised Kirchstein didn't release "Behind The Curtains" on Sara Records.  But, maybe Jan saw The Night Owl logo, and wanted her record to have that cool-looking label. 

I've since been reading The Cuca Records' website, and now I've learned that Don Talty had Jan Bradley record ALL her cuts for Talty's Formal Records, including "Mama Didn't Lie" at Cuca's studio!!!  The R&B producers (almost all from Chicago) who got their releases recorded and pressed by Cuca, went there because it was so far from big cities that almost no R&B producers knew about it.  So, while recording there, no one could steal their songs.

Here's a photo of Cuca's building, with the Cuca, Sara, Night Owl, and C&W label, Polka Dot Records' logos prominently shown.  Also below are two different coloured Sansu label designs from 1976, one of which might have been used on The Specials' SanSu record.

Edited October 17, 2020 by Robbk

[Ljblanken]

Wow! That is a lot of info!

[Robbk]

23 hours ago, Ljblanken said:

Wow! That is a lot of info!

Yes, I see now that I probably should have started another, separate thread about Kirchstein's labels, and just posted on this one about The Specials on Sansu, given that the group on Sara is probably not the same group.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Robbk

[Martyn Pitt]

13 hours ago, Ljblanken said:

I just noticed that Soulfulkindamusic lists the Specials single as being on Sansu (as well as the Satch issue)... I have never seen one on Sansu. Anyone have a pic? Just curious...

 

https://www.soulfulkindamusic.net/specials.htm

 

You could always ask Dave Rimmer whose site it is, he is a member on here.

 

 

[Robbk]

I would guess that the SanSu group is a different group - NOT the Chicago group that was on Satch Records.

[Sebastian]

Specials on Sansu must be a mistake.

The Satch release being from 1976 is also a mistake, it's from 1968 or 1969.

[Trev Thomas]

 does anyone know where the satch label originates from ?

[Ljblanken]

8 hours ago, Martyn Pitt said:

You could always ask Dave Rimmer whose site it is, he is a member on here.

 

 

Does anyone know him? (I do not). I would be curious as to where the info comes from. They even list a specific number for the issue on Sansu (#1013).

[Robbk]

11 minutes ago, Trev Thomas said:

 does anyone know where the satch label originates from ?

Chicago.

[Martyn Pitt]

7 minutes ago, Ljblanken said:

Does anyone know him? (I do not). I would be curious as to where the info comes from. They even list a specific number for the issue on Sansu (#1013).

I do, if I flag his name he may see this thread and answer the question, either that or you could send him a message @Dave Rimmer

[Frankie Crocker]

11 minutes ago, Trev Thomas said:

 does anyone know where the satch label originates from ?

Chicago would be my guess, but Rob’s encyclopaedic knowledge would confirm this...he has just posted as I type this... On my first trip to Chicago in 1991, I found two copies at Beverley’s Records - both mint unplayed distributor stock. Nobody wanted it back then so I let the spare copy go for next to nothing. Never seen it on Sansu though.

[Frankie Crocker]

8 minutes ago, Robbk said:

Chicago.

I knew it... But, I have a soulful record on Night Owl, probably blue-eyed and admittedly a cover version, but it bears comparison to the Stax version even though it could be a garage band - name that tune!

[Robbk]

9 minutes ago, Frankie Crocker said:

Chicago would be my guess, but Rob’s encyclopaedic knowledge would confirm this...he has just posted as I type this... On my first trip to Chicago in 1991, I found two copies at Beverley’s Records - both mint unplayed distributor stock. Nobody wanted it back then so I let the spare copy go for next to nothing. Never seen it on Sansu though.

The Specials had 2 releases on Satch.

[The Yank]

There are THREE Specials releases on Satch.

[Frankie Crocker]

1 minute ago, Robbk said:

The Specials had 2 releases on Satch.

Three actually - 512, 514 and 515. I have two of them, and am chasing 514. On the first release, there seem to be two label variations plain text and italic - does anyone know why?

[Robbk]

11 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

I knew it... But, I have a soulful record on Night Owl, probably blue-eyed and admittedly a cover version, but it bears comparison to the Stax version even though it could be a garage band - name that tune!

I only knew The Jan Bradly on Night Owl, other than a lot of Hard Rock, Garage, and some Lily-White Pop.  What is the name of the group and song on Night Owl, and Stax version group?  I'd guess it was a White Group.  Kirchstein seemed to have a policy of channeling black artists to Sara, other than Harvey Scales on Cuca, and Jan Bradly on Night Owl.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Robbk

[Frankie Crocker]

1 minute ago, Robbk said:

I only knew The Jan Bradly on Night Owl, other than a lot of Hard Rock, Garage, and some Lily-White Pop.  What is the name of the group and song on Night Owl, and Stax version group?  I'd guess it was a White Group.  Kirschstein seemed to have a policy of channeling black artists to Sara, other than Harvey Scales on Cuca, and Jan Bradly on Night Owl.

I’m waiting for another to turn up so keeping it quiet. I will confirm it if anyone posts it though.

[Robbk]

31 minutes ago, Frankie Crocker said:

Three actually - 512, 514 and 515. I have two of them, and am chasing 514. On the first release, there seem to be two label variations plain text and italic - does anyone know why?

I have 514, "Fool For Your Love"/"Baby You Need Me".  I have the Italic group name version.  I thought I had 515 "I Can't Find Another", as well, and have 512 ("You Stood Me Up").  So, I knew there were 3, I just forgot.

Billy McGregor, and Jan Jones who sang lead were involved in Satch, as well as James Finch.  I wonder who arranger "D.S." was?

Satch's Heno Music seems to be one of Billy McGregor's publishers, as it is also with him on Fay and LaSalle Records, along with Jump Jackson.  So, I'm guessing that Heno Music represented the partnership of McGregor and Jackson, because McGregor used different publishers on his other labels.

We had a thread about Satch in 2013, with Bob A. The Yank, myself, and others on this thread, where we discussed all this.

Edited October 15, 2020 by Robbk

[The Yank]

12 minutes ago, Frankie Crocker said:

On the first release, there seem to be two label variations plain text and italic - does anyone know why?

Not sure about the variations but I have an early release (??) of #512 that has handwritten publisher and release#'s and a different publisher (Merrill ) for "You Stood Me Up" - 

 

[Frankie Crocker]

5 minutes ago, The Yank said:

Not sure about the variations but I have an early release (??) of #512 that has handwritten publisher and release#'s and a different publisher (Merrill ) for "You Stood Me Up" - 

 

Yes, the italic variation. Could this be a first pressing? The more common plain text variation evidently sold well, so I wondered if this was based on early sales of the italic release?

[Robbk]

6 minutes ago, The Yank said:

Not sure about the variations but I have an early release (??) of #512 that has handwritten publisher and release#'s and a different publisher (Merrill ) for "You Stood Me Up" - 

 

Maybe Merrill was McGregor alone, or him together with a financial backer, who withdrew out of the deal, and McGregor then brought in Jump Jackson instead, and they formed Heno Music for their new partnership?

[Robbk]

5 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

Yes, the italic variation. Could this be a first pressing? The more common plain text variation evidently sold well, so I wondered if this was based on early sales of the italic release?

I'm pretty sure I remember seeing the Italic versions first.  So, they would have been earlier, and the first press runs would have been smaller runs, before they knew if they would sell.

I remember hearing both "You Stood Me Up" and "Fool For Your Love" played on WVON.  Both had some decent local sales.  Even flip side "Everybody Say Yeah" got some plays.  So there probably were second, larger press runs of 212 and 214.  Which left a lot of boxes of them in distributorships like United and others, because they didn't do as well as had been expected.  But, I don't remember "I Can't Find Another" getting played.

Edited October 15, 2020 by Robbk

[The Yank]

I would think the copy I posted would have been the 1st pressing since there is no release # on the labels and a different publisher for "You Stood Me Up". 

[Robbk]

4 minutes ago, The Yank said:

I would think the copy I posted would have been the 1st pressing since there is no release # on the labels and a different publisher for "You Stood Me Up". 

That HAS to be right, based on logic.

[The Yank]

1 minute ago, Robbk said:

That HAS to be right, based on logic.

  Sometimes Record companies don't use logic though.   

[Robbk]

Just now, The Yank said:

  Sometimes Record companies don't use logic though.   

I saw it sometimes in my own company (unfortunately).

[Blackpoolsoul]

18 hours ago, Sebastian said:

Specials on Sansu must be a mistake.

The Satch release being from 1976 is also a mistake, it's from 1968 or 1969.

I thought that, interesting it turns up here ( maybe this was copied from Dave?)

https://hideki1997.stars.ne.jp/sansu-label45.html

All that Allen Toussaint stuff turned up last year from a flea market, maybe it will turn up as proved

https://www.nola.com/entertainment_life/keith_spera/article_6630dda4-ca7c-11e9-aca0-9fd44bb0a169.html

Edited October 16, 2020 by Blackpoolsoul

[Robbk]

20 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

I thought that, interesting it turns up here ( maybe this was copied from Dave?)

https://hideki1997.stars.ne.jp/sansu-label45.html

All that Allen Toussaint stuff turned up last year from a flea market, maybe it will turn up as proved

https://www.nola.com/entertainment_life/keith_spera/article_6630dda4-ca7c-11e9-aca0-9fd44bb0a169.html

ALL those artists are from New Orleans, or somewhere else in The Deep South.  It seems strange that Chicago's Specials don't belong with them.  The Specials recorded "I Can't Find Another" in the late '60s for Satch.  And this SanSu list of master tapes makes it look like they re-recorded their old song in New Orleans, in a Funk Style in 1976.  But, somehow, I have trouble believing that same Specials Chicago group stuck together from 1969 through to 1976.  It looks like there has been some kind of mistake and transposition of information.  I can't believe that a different Specials group recorded a song with the same title as another, earlier Specials group.  So something seems wrong here.  I think they put the wrong song title for the 1976 recording, and it is the 2-parter with the different title, listed on Discogs, or whatever discography I saw.

[Blackpoolsoul]

On 16/10/2020 at 05:20, Robbk said:

ALL those artists are from New Orleans, or somewhere else in The Deep South.  It seems strange that Chicago's Specials don't belong with them.  The Specials recorded "I Can't Find Another" in the late '60s for Satch.  And this SanSu list of master tapes makes it look like they re-recorded their old song in New Orleans, in a Funk Style in 1976.  But, somehow, I have trouble believing that same Specials Chicago group stuck together from 1969 through to 1976.  It looks like there has been some kind of mistake and transposition of information.  I can't believe that a different Specials group recorded a song with the same title as another, earlier Specials group.  So something seems wrong here.  I think they put the wrong song title for the 1976 recording, and it is the 2-parter with the different title, listed on Discogs, or whatever discography I saw.

I am thinking down the same lines.

The type-set and printing on the labels (Sansu) "looks" very "Chicagoee" (is that a new word  ?)

I always thought that The Specials were very related, changed their name from/to The Cassadons on Beltone as the credits seem very similar

Edited October 17, 2020 by Blackpoolsoul

[Robbk]

On 15/10/2020 at 23:51, Blackpoolsoul said:

I am thinking down the same lines.

The type-set and printing on the labels (Sansu) "looks" very "Chicagoee" (is that a new word  ?)

I always thought that The Specials were very related, changed their name from/to The Cassadons on Beltone as the credits seem very similar

Beltone was a subsidiary of Satch.  The letters "SA on The Cassadons' record stand for Satch.  James Finch, was producer on both labels, and songwriter on both, and McGregor's name isn't on the Beltone record, and neither is Heno Music.  So, I'm guessing that Satch was a partnership between James Finch and Billy McGregor, and Beltone was just Finch alone, or Finch partnered with someone with a name starting with the letters "Pa", given that the music publisher was Fipa Music.  There was a mid '60s Chicago Soul label titled "Fipa", and I've seen Fipa Music on other Chicago mid '60s Soul records on Fipa, and other labels.  As far as the two groups, they have a bit of a different sound.  On Satch, both Finch, and Jan Jones sang lead on different songs. Maybe The Cassadons are Finch on lead, with one or two group roster changes?  Or maybe they are the same group, just with only Finch on lead. 

"Chicagoee" is difficult to spell conventionally.  I would use "Chicagolike", or "Chicagoish".  But I disagree with you there, about the two 1976 Sansu label designs looking similar to mid '70s Chicago records, either in label design or print font.  I don't think they look alike enough to imply that the 1976 Sansu Specials' release could have been printed in Chicago.  In any case, we haven't seen a scan of it.  

Edited October 17, 2020 by Robbk

[The Yank]

1 hour ago, Robbk said:

 There was a mid '60s Chicago Soul label titled "Fipa", and I've seen Fipa Music on other Chicago mid '60s Soul records on Fipa, and other labels. 

I've never heard of the Fipa label- did you mean Fip ? 

 

[Robbk]

7 hours ago, The Yank said:

I've never heard of the Fipa label- did you mean Fip ? 

 

No, I meant Fipa Music.  And I thought there was also a record label connected.  But, I must have been confusing Fip with Fipa, regarding the label.  And FIP Records' music publisher was Fipi, so I must have gotten Fipi confused with Fipa.  In any case, Floyd Smith's FIP Records bears no relation nor connection to James Finch, or The Satch people, that I can tell.

[Blackpoolsoul]

14 hours ago, Robbk said:

Beltone was a subsidiary of Satch.  The letters "SA on The Cassadons' record stand for Satch.  James Finch, was producer on both labels, and songwriter on both, and McGregor's name isn't on the Beltone record, and neither is Heno Music.  So, I'm guessing that Satch was a partnership between James Finch and Billy McGregor, and Beltone was just Finch alone, or Finch partnered with someone with a name starting with the letters "Pa", given that the music publisher was Fipa Music.  There was a mid '60s Chicago Soul label titled "Fipa", and I've seen Fipa Music on other Chicago mid '60s Soul records on Fipa, and other labels.  As far as the two groups, they have a bit of a different sound.  On Satch, both Finch, and Jan Jones sang lead on different songs. Maybe The Cassadons are Finch on lead, with one or two group roster changes?  Or maybe they are the same group, just with only Finch on lead. 

"Chicagoee" is difficult to spell conventionally.  I would use "Chicagolike", or "Chicagoish".  But I disagree with you there, about the two 1976 Sansu label designs looking similar to mid '70s Chicago records, either in label design or print font.  I don't think they look alike enough to imply that the 1976 Sansu Specials' release could have been printed in Chicago.  In any case, we haven't seen a scan of it.  

I will follow your lead on Chicagolike (sounds nicer)

Found these connected on publishing which still possibly points that way ?

Is Heno connected to Armand "Jump" Jackson

Born : March 25, 1917 in New Orleans, Louisiana. 
Died : January 31, 1985 in Chicago, Illinois. 

Edited October 18, 2020 by Blackpoolsoul

[Robbk]

Yes.  Heno Music was either Jump Jackson's alone, or a partnership of Jackson and Billy McGregor.  I have some La Salle and Fay Records with both Billy McGregor and Jump Jackson's name on them, and you see McGregor's name on The Summits' record. All the "sweet Soul" records I had on both La Salle and Fay had Heno Music and both Billy McGregor's and Jump Jackson' name on them.  The Blues records don't seem to have McGregor's.  Jackson's name is not connected with Satch.  Interesting that Jackson was originally from New Orleans.  So, it may be that, in 1976, McGregor brought his Specials back to work with his friend and his ex-1960s colleague, Jackson, to do a Funky version of one of their old Satch songs.  And ex-New Orleans resident, Jump Jackson, was then working for his old New Orleans friend and colleague, Allen Toussaint, and for the latter's Sansu Records.  So, maybe there was no information transposition error, after all? 

[Kenb]

On 15/10/2020 at 18:38, The Yank said:

Not sure about the variations but I have an early release (??) of #512 that has handwritten publisher and release#'s and a different publisher (Merrill ) for "You Stood Me Up" - 

 

which Jan Jones is this?

is it the 'Independent Woman' Jan Jones?

Is it the 'Ascot label' January Jones?

or someone other Jan Jones? ( man or woman)

[The Yank]

According to "Soul Harmony SIngles 1960-1990", Jan Jones and John Finch were in the Specials. 

[Chalky]

Who is the Jan Jones on the Specials 45s?  Discogs someone has put him/her down as the jan Jones on Day-Wood?

[Kenb]

1 hour ago, The Yank said:

According to "Soul Harmony SIngles 1960-1990", Jan Jones and John Finch were in the Specials. 

Cheers.

In that case maybe Willie Simmons and Cornelius Charles were also.

[Robbk]

1 hour ago, The Yank said:

According to "Soul Harmony Singles 1960-1990", Jan Jones and John Finch were in the Specials. 

I also read that these 2 shared the role as lead singer.  The Jan in The Specials is a man.   But, the January Jones on Ascot and 20th Century Fox was a woman, who lived on The East Coast.  The male Chicago R&B singer who might get confused for a Jan Jones, was JUNE Jones, of R&B VGH group, June and The Januarys.  I don't recall any male Jan Jones in a group other than The Specials. 

Edited October 18, 2020 by Robbk

[Robbk]

27 minutes ago, Kenb said:

Cheers.

In that case maybe Willie Simmons and Cornelius Charles were also.

This would be interesting to find out.

[Robbk]

1 hour ago, Robbk said:

I also read that these 2 shared the role as lead singer.  The Jan in The Specials is a man.   But, the January Jones on Ascot and 20th Century Fox was a woman, who lived on The East Coast.  Also, I don't hear any female voices in any of The Specials' Satch cuts.  The Cassadons is a possibility for a female singer in the background, but not the lead.  So my vote is that Jan Jones in The Specials is a man, and that January Jones on the East Coast labels has no connection to The Specials.  The male Chicago R&B singer who might get confused for a Jan Jones, was JUNE Jones, of R&B VGH group, June and The Januarys.  I don't recall any male Jan Jones in a group other than The Specials. 

 

Edited October 18, 2020 by Robbk

[Blackpoolsoul]

7 hours ago, Kenb said:

which Jan Jones is this?

is it the 'Independent Woman' Jan Jones?

Is it the 'Ascot label' January Jones?

or someone other Jan Jones? ( man or woman)

January Jones (the stage name of Jacqueline Allison) pop vocalist

[The Yank]

1 hour ago, Kenb said:

Cheers.

In that case maybe Willie Simmons and Cornelius Charles were also.

 On Soulhawk's "You Stood Me Up" on you tube, someone listed the rest of the group as Russell Jarvis,

Joe Johnson and Donald Lowe. Can anyone verify this ? 

Edited October 18, 2020 by The Yank

[Blackpoolsoul]

1 hour ago, The Yank said:

 On Soulhawk's "You Stood Me Up" on you tube, someone listed the rest of the group as Russell Jarvis,

Joe Johnson and Donald Lowe. Can anyone verify this ? 

I love the other stuff too

"This group was from West Chesterfield in the heart of Chatham on the south side of Chicago. They all attended Harlan high school. The group had two leading singers, Jan Jones and Finch. Jan was exceptional in everything but made bad choices. I thought Finch had the VOICE. Rumor has it that on payday they got robbed by Management which led to the break up."

This probs explains why they just vanished

[Robbk]

35 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

I love the other stuff too

"This group was from West Chesterfield in the heart of Chatham on the south side of Chicago. They all attended Harlan high school. The group had two leading singers, Jan Jones and Finch. Jan was exceptional in everything but made bad choices. I thought Finch had the VOICE. Rumor has it that on payday they got robbed by Management which led to the break up."

This probs explains why they just vanished

The question is whether or not they were resurrected in 1976.

[The Yank]

Another strange item I just noticed on Soulfulkindamusic is Wand #1141-

Honey Bees- "Never In A Million Years"/ "Let's Get Back Together".

Anyone ever seen one??

 

[Robbk]

1 hour ago, The Yank said:

Another strange item I just noticed on Soulfulkindamusic is Wand #1141-

Honey Bees- "Never In A Million Years"/ "Let's Get Back Together".

Anyone ever seen one??

 

I've seen one, many years ago (as well as a few scans of other copies (or, one other copy). However, even more rare is a third Don Juan Mancha - Johnny Terry Detroit production (after "Marvin Jones' "Dearly Beloved") - "She Broke His Heart" by The Just Brothers, from Empire Records, listed as Wand 1144, before it was also farmed out to Garrison.  Only THAT one, I have never seen.  So, I'm somewhat convinced Wand never did press that one up before Garrison got it.  I've always wondered if Garrison was a partly-owned subsidiary of Scepter-Wand at that time.  Otherwise, why would Florence Greenberg lease records from Travler Productions (Montgomery/Terry/Mancha) just to turn around and lease them to a completely independent, much smaller company, with weaker marketing power?  I think Garrison had the same distributors pushing these records as Wand did, and pushed them no stronger or weaker than they would if they had had the bulk of their pressings on Wand.  I think that Wand and Scepter treated Garrison as if it were just another of their own labels, like they did with Spokane Records in 1963-64.

Edited October 18, 2020 by Robbk

[The Yank]

1 hour ago, Robbk said:

 I've always wondered if Garrison was a partly-owned subsidiary of Scepter-Wand at that time.  Otherwise, why would Florence Greenberg lease records from Travler Productions (Montgomery/Terry/Mancha) just to turn around and lease them to a completely independent, much smaller company, with weaker marketing power?  I think Garrison had the same distributors pushing these records as Wand did, and pushed them no stronger or weaker than they would if they had had the bulk of their pressings on Wand.  I think that Wand and Scepter treated Garrison as if it were just another of their own labels, like they did with Spokane Records in 1963-64.

 

[Robbk]

Thanks for that information. It seems that I was partly correct about Scepter-Wand treating Garrison almost as if it were a subsidiary of theirs, only wrong about them having a part-ownership interest.  But, with Garris, Garrison's owner and CEO being Scepter-Wand's in-house Sales-Promo Director, we can be sure that Garrison operated pretty much as an integral part of Scepter-Wand.

Edited October 18, 2020 by Robbk