George Lemons - Fascinating Girl: John Manship auction.

[Frankie Crocker]

Any bets on what price this will sell for? Within 24 hours of it being put up for auction, bids were above £700. The condition is pretty near perfect - when the record occasionally pops up for sale it’s in a neglected state. The sales blurb penned by John makes a fascinating read in itself. What do the connoisseurs out there think?

[Dobber]

I got £2200 in 2005 on eBay with shit loads of bids,that was an ex copy,although up until then there hadn’t been many if any copy’s showing up for sale,but since then there’s been quite a few! I’d imagine on jms it will do 2.5 to 3k?

[Winsford Soul]

I'm going to stick my neck out and go 4K with how the prices are at the moment 

[Frankie Crocker]

48 minutes ago, Winsford Soul said:

I'm going to stick my neck out and go 4K with how the prices are at the moment 

I agree. I think it’s going to be nearer 4K than 3K. Some auctions seem to be achieving higher than ever prices right now.

[Geeselad]

I like it but I think it's fair to say it's a bit of a marmiter, surely that'll limit the market. 

[Jaco]

Difficult to understand how such a tuneless dirge could command such a high price tag. I understand however that some folk like it. Glad to say I’m not one of them.

[Frankie Crocker]

You’re right there, it’s a bit of a Marmite record. But then again, I really like Marmite. There are probably countless records out there having some flawed quality but that doesn’t necessarily make them worthless rubbish. This record is very unlike most of Detroit’s offerings, and that gives it certain appeal. Part of the enjoyment of soul music is recognising any imperfections, learning to live with them and not allowing them to detract from the overall experience.

[Jaco]

28 minutes ago, Frankie Crocker said:

You’re right there, it’s a bit of a Marmite record. But then again, I really like Marmite. There are probably countless records out there having some flawed quality but that doesn’t necessarily make them worthless rubbish. This record is very unlike most of Detroit’s offerings, and that gives it certain appeal. Part of the enjoyment of soul music is recognising any imperfections, learning to live with them and not allowing them to detract from the overall experience.

Got it Frank. Just can’t get past the recognising the imperfections and learning to live with them. Happy to live without them.

Each to their own.

[Frankie Crocker]

2 hours ago, Jaco said:

Got it Frank. Just can’t get past the recognising the imperfections and learning to live with them. Happy to live without them.

Each to their own.

So what do you think it could sell for?

Or put another way, if you found a copy in the wild in the USA, what would you want someone to pay for it, just to take the record off your hands?

[Lionelonthevinyl]

8 hours ago, Dobber said:

I got £2200 in 2005 on eBay with shit loads of bids,that was an ex copy,although up until then there hadn’t been many if any copy’s showing up for sale,but since then there’s been quite a few! I’d imagine on jms it will do 2.5 to 3k?

I would say double of what you got lee...who knows???....Thank you...Rob

[Jaco]

2 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

So what do you think it could sell for?

Or put another way, if you found a copy in the wild in the USA, what would you want someone to pay for it, just to take the record off your hands?

I’d take whatever the going rate is. Why would I not? There is not always a direct correlation between value and taste.

[Frankie Crocker]

Soaring nicely now with bids at £1,787. I suspect several dedicated collectors with supreme taste would love to have this beauty in their flightcase.

I suppose should declare no financial interest in this particular copy least anyone thinks I’ve asked John to sell it for commission.

[Benji]

Sure a marmite record. I love it. Even though I despise today's Northern 45 prices I fully understand if this copy fetches loads.

[Tomangoes]

£4k estimate....the lock downs are easing off...some up and coming dj will want to open with this and the recently sold William Powell !

George Lemons, who was sentenced to life without parole in 1987 for triple murder and died in prison in 1996. 

Not your average artist or sound...reluctantly I have to admit its hard not to sing along to.

Ed

[Chalky]

I posted all news papers reports from the trial etc in a topic on here some years ago

[Chalky]

This has been a four figure sale for years now so not sure why it arouses so much interest.  Listed it for £1700 on an Andy Dyson list in 2011, sold at auction around 2010 for £2200.  I don’t really recall in recent times seeing if under four figures.  Always been rare and always been popular despite what the purists say.   Seen more in decent nick than not too.

[Chalky]

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1987/07/11/Innocent-pleas-were-entered-Saturday-for-a-69-year-old-woman/7861552974400/

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1987-07-12-8702200706-story.html

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/48068264/clay-hoover-murder/

[Chalky]

On 12/07/2020 at 15:21, Jaco said:

Difficult to understand how such a tuneless dirge could command such a high price tag. I understand however that some folk like it. Glad to say I’m not one of them.

He isn’t the greatest singer but it certainly isn’t tuneless.  Can understand its appeal to some and dislike to others though.  Be boring if we all liked the same. 

[Frankie Crocker]

1 hour ago, Chalky said:

This has been a four figure sale for years now so not sure why it arouses so much interest.  Listed it for £1700 on an Andy Dyson list in 2011, sold at auction around 2010 for £2200.  I don’t really recall in recent times seeing if under four figures.  Always been rare and always been popular despite what the purists say.   Seen more in decent nick than not too.

Thanks for this Chalky. There are several reasons for looking closely at this copy. Prices recently, despite the global crisis, have been doubling and trebling at the higher end of the scale: for some of us, the concept of a 3K or 5K record is a useful yardstick. George Lemons, despite its status, was left out of Manship’s ‘Million Dollars of Rare Soul’ book, and more recently, overlooked by Butch in his ‘Sought After Soul Records’ list; so why is this record not given the acclaim it deserves?

[Midnight Drifter]

Actually, it's in Butch's list. Not sure if it was added afterwards..

[Garswood]

13 minutes ago, Frankie Crocker said:

so why is this record not given the acclaim it deserves?

The guy can’t sing, he’s out of key, 2nd half of the song he’s out of time, terrible lyrics, amateurish musicians, it’s a catchy tune at best, I read JM’s listing in amazement that someone with his reputation could big up a tune that’s so bad, definitely rarity over quality, that’s my opinion for what it’s worth, and I do like marmite

 

[Chalky]

34 minutes ago, Frankie Crocker said:

Thanks for this Chalky. There are several reasons for looking closely at this copy. Prices recently, despite the global crisis, have been doubling and trebling at the higher end of the scale: for some of us, the concept of a 3K or 5K record is a useful yardstick. George Lemons, despite its status, was left out of Manship’s ‘Million Dollars of Rare Soul’ book, and more recently, overlooked by Butch in his ‘Sought After Soul Records’ list; so why is this record not given the acclaim it deserves?

£2k was a lot of money ten years ago, even for a record on this scene so only right to expect a doubling in price for something like this given the rise in prices. 

I think it does get the acclaim it deserves, look what happens in a club when it is played, the floor is rammed and has been since first played in the 80s. There is a vocal element on Social media however who shout louder than the rest, the rest probably can’t be bothered tbh and just get on with enjoying the music, or not as the case may be in some cases. 
 

The dancefloor reaction is the only thing that matters not the opinion of a loud vocal minority. 

Edited July 14, 2020 by Chalky

[Dobber]

If anyone can’t stand the blokes voice but likes the tune,turn it over for the instr!

maybe record your own vocal to it haha

[Davey S]

It will be an expensive fruit bowl .

[Frankie Crocker]

2 hours ago, Midnight Drifter said:

Actually, it's in Butch's list. Not sure if it was added afterwards..

Thanks. I thought someone mentioned it afterwards so it must have been added later.

[Frankie Crocker]

1 hour ago, Chalky said:

£2k was a lot of money ten years ago, even for a record on this scene so only right to expect a doubling in price for something like this given the rise in prices. 

I think it does get the acclaim it deserves, look what happens in a club when it is played, the floor is rammed and has been since first played in the 80s. There is a vocal element on Social media however who shout louder than the rest, the rest probably can’t be bothered tbh and just get on with enjoying the music, or not as the case may be in some cases. 
 

The dancefloor reaction is the only thing that matters not the opinion of a loud vocal minority. 

My thoughts entirely. It passes the acid test - instant dancefloor reaction to those in the know.

Yes, the vocal is flawed and George warbles a bit, but who really cares? The vocal imperfection barely detracts from the overall song. Perhaps his voice is cracking up with emotion as he thinks about some fascinating girl...

[Speedlimit]

The first night Jimmy wensoria played this at Notts Rock City in 85 it blew you away. Not sure it's vocal in perfection though, seems more like a warble in his voice which seems to be the norm with many of today's artists. Perhaps he was ahead of the Times. Still a superb tune, and floor filler a rare nites. 

[Ted Massey]

If all the flawed vocals on northern soul records were binned there wouldn't be much left to play  

[25miles]

by chance does anyone have a picture of the man ????

[Frankie Crocker]

1 hour ago, Ted Massey said:

If all the flawed vocals on northern soul records were binned there wouldn't be much left to play  

Well put Ted. Not everyone can sound like Ray Pollard, Chuck Jackson, Roy Hamilton, Jack Montgomery, Gary Lewis and the Playboys etc..

[Geeselad]

4 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

Well put Ted. Not everyone can sound like Ray Pollard, Chuck Jackson, Roy Hamilton, Jack Montgomery, Gary Lewis and the Playboys etc..

Tongue in cheek I hope. Ray, Chuck and Jack all hit perfection on most of there output. As for Gary lewis

[Frankie Crocker]

2 minutes ago, Geeselad said:

Tongue in cheek I hope. Ray, Chuck and Jack all hit perfection on most of there output. As for Gary lewis

Tongue well and truly in cheek... Mind you, Gary and Co were poppy tuneful back in the day, definitely a Marmite sound nowadays. 

[Winsford Soul]

1 hour ago, Frankie Crocker said:

Tongue well and truly in cheek... Mind you, Gary and Co were poppy tuneful back in the day, definitely a Marmite sound nowadays. 

Great youth club  record. Still like it now

[Davey S]

Personally in today's current climate I would feel a bit of a hypocrite playing a record by a cop killer let alone paying thousands to own it , and I'm sure there are a few of our " heroes " with chequered pasts but G Lemons is free available. 

[Frankie Crocker]

1 hour ago, Davey S said:

Personally in today's current climate I would feel a bit of a hypocrite playing a record by a cop killer let alone paying thousands to own it , and I'm sure there are a few of our " heroes " with chequered pasts but G Lemons is free available. 

Don’t let Cancel Culture get to you. The music of George Lemons was made long before the subsequent tragedy. The whole of Black Music history in the USA stems from events hundreds of years ago, and is in itself a fascinating subject to study up on.

[Davey S]

Fair point .

[Frankie Crocker]

Bidding now at £1,821 with three weeks to go. This seems like a really long time - could people lose interest in it? I suspect a lot of the action will be on the final day anyway.

[Frankie Crocker]

Bidding now stands at £2,717 with a fortnight to go. Looks like it will go way above 3K now.

[Tomangoes]

Drat...my limit was £2700.

Ah well  looks like a fortnight in Tenerife instead.

Ed

[Zanetti]

On 22/07/2020 at 19:48, Frankie Crocker said:

Bidding now stands at £2,717 

Still 2717£

 

 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Zanetti

[Zanetti]

Does Have The Counterfeit Or Belgium Pressing Or What Else ...

The Label Print Is Great - And The Sound Aswell - Think A 75 Quid Record

Any Ideas?

[Frankie Crocker]

Not sure what the above point is, but John Manship would only auction genuine, original records that you could place 100% confidence in.

As you study the original for sale, note the amateurish stamp denoting ‘vocal’, pondering why there is no stamp for the instrumental side. Look closely at the gold bar - badly drawn, as lines in the same plane are not parallel.

So, we have a novicey musical family, somewhat imperfect but nevertheless delightful studio production, an amateurish label design and a cowboy outfit taking care of the marketing.

This record is a little piece of music history. I can fully understand why someone might attempt to bootleg it for financial gain as the vast majority of people who like the record are never going to actually own a copy.

[Zanetti]

16 minutes ago, Frankie Crocker said:

Not sure what the above point is, but John Manship would only auction genuine, original records that you could place 100% confidence in.

i'm well aware of that, my friend.

As you study the original for sale, note the amateurish stamp denoting ‘vocal’, pondering why there is no stamp for the instrumental side. Look closely at the gold bar - badly drawn, as lines in the same plane are not parallel.

I didn't look at it that closely after all. Thank you very much for your meticulously-investigative views. 

 

[Frankie Crocker]

Game on. Less than a week to go. Now at £2,751. I expect most of the action on this one to be on the final day, but let’s see...

[Zanetti]

9 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

I expect most of the action on this one to be on the final day, but let’s see...

Yeah, I'm guessing pretty strongly. I'm sure in the final minutes of the auction there will be hysterical 4-5 bids. The last ones will surely make up another push of about £600!
I shall now lay down my bids and say £3800!

[Zanetti]

Deadline's been set for 18:00. But I strongly believe that George will win a few minutes again through the auction algorithm, so that the auction can continue until 18.10!

[Frankie Crocker]

22 minutes ago, Zanetti said:

Yeah, I'm guessing pretty strongly. I'm sure in the final minutes of the auction there will be hysterical 4-5 bids. The last ones will surely make up another push of about £600!
I shall now lay down my bids and say £3800!

More like two, knee-trembling, finger-shaking bids... The protagonists have already decided what their limits are and wait nervously for the final countdown. May the richest man (or woman) win (especially if she is buying it as a surprise for her husband/boyfriend/toyboy... could it actually be for me me me...)

[Frankie Crocker]

Bidding now at £3,117.

Thought I’d do a statistical analysis of the 19 sold on Popsike 2005-2019... penance for oversleeping and missing my ‘O’ Level Statistics exam that I’d not revised for anyway...

VG- = 4 copies, VG = 5 copies, VG+ = 4 copies, VG++ = 2 copies, Ex = 3 copies and M- = 1 copy. Many had grubby labels, a few had WOL, one was warped but all were in acceptable playable condition without skips, cracks, chunks missing etc. For those who are quite fussy about condition (like myself), 10 copies were of a nice enough condition to bid on without too much hesitation.

The Median value was <VG+ ie the central value of the ranked sequence of 19.

The Modal value was VG ie the most commonly occurring grade.

The Mean value was VG+ ie the average grading.

So, the copy up for auction is probably the best to be put on the open market this century, with only two copies in the survey of 19 (M- & Ex++) approaching the near perfect condition of the one that will sell on Wednesday 5th.

[Frankie Crocker]

Bidding now at £3,637. Less than three days to go, so it looks like the 4K mark should be passed.

[Mike]

12 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

Bidding now at £3,117.

Thought I’d do a statistical analysis of the 19 sold on Popsike 2005-2019... penance for oversleeping and missing my ‘O’ Level Statistics exam that I’d not revised for anyway...

VG- = 4 copies, VG = 5 copies, VG+ = 4 copies, VG++ = 2 copies, Ex = 3 copies and M- = 1 copy. Many had grubby labels, a few had WOL, one was warped but all were in acceptable playable condition without skips, cracks, chunks missing etc. For those who are quite fussy about condition (like myself), 10 copies were of a nice enough condition to bid on without too much hesitation.

The Median value was <VG+ ie the central value of the ranked sequence of 19.

The Modal value was VG ie the most commonly occurring grade.

The Mean value was VG+ ie the average grading.

So, the copy up for auction is probably the best to be put on the open market this century, with only two copies in the survey of 19 (M- & Ex++) approaching the near perfect condition of the one that will sell on Wednesday 5th.

searching our sales forum here throws up a few

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/search/?&q="George Lemons" "Fascinating Girl"&type=forums_topic&nodes=4&search_and_or=and&sortby=relevancy