CD reissue pricing question

[Nathan]

As the market for CDs dwindles, there are fewer and fewer as-yet-uanthologized-on-CD Soul artists whose potential CD retrospectives would be probable big sellers.

Given this fact, are you happy to pay a higher price for more niche releases, a la Ace's Limited Edition titles?

If so, what do you think is a reasonable "premium" price to pay for a single CD? what about a double-CD set?

[Thinksmart]

I buy almost every Soul related CD that is issued (certainly in the reissue space, but most of the new releases too). For me it depends on the rarity of the music, quality of the sound, respect I have for the issuing label, the research put in and the notes. But I think about £15 is the most for a single CD. A number of 3CD sets are going for around £27 new by such as SoulMusic.  There are CDs I'd paid more for to unearth some rare music or labels that it isn't worth doing unless the price is more.  It is important that the royalty holders are paid to me, so I do factor that into the price. Inexpensive isn't always right.

There are still key 1970s albums by such as Jerry Butler and The Originals with enduring scene plays that still haven't been issued on CD. There are hundreds of albums issued in Japan on CD that never saw issue in UK/USA.

The UK CD pricing of £17+ we see around for some new release, single artist CDs by someone unknown feels too high to me.  I do understand there is a need to make a decent mark-up to fund music shops and also import costs too - which can add to the cost for some sellers.

As I've bought just about every Soul CD from the 80s onwards in UK, but also importing globally where needed - I will be happy to provide any input I can. Feel free to PM me and I'm very happy to chat on this.

Edited June 30, 2020 by Thinksmart

[Mickey Finn]

20 hours ago, Thinksmart said:

There are still key 1970s albums by such as Jerry Butler and The Originals with enduring scene plays that still haven't been issued on CD. There are hundreds of albums issued in Japan on CD that never saw issue in UK/USA.

 

Add to those the Four Tops ABC albums, Luther's Cotillion albums, Aretha's last 5 Atlantic albums and a long list of one-offs and relative obscurities, many of which haven't even seen reissue in Japan. Lots of good material for any brave reissuers out there!

[Thinksmart]

Indeed. Those first two Luther albums are a must. Like some of those Aretha albums, I think I read it was the artist themselves who blocked their reissue.  I could be wrong on that.  The Four Tops ABC singles have now been issued in a good CD set, so I hope for the albums too soon.

[Mickey Finn]

Yes, I've read that Luther himself blocked reissue of these. According to someone online, he was holding out for big bucks (see comment at bottom of link):

https://luthervandrossearlyyears.wordpress.com/2011/07/06/luther-1976-cotillion-records/

Some years back Aretha was reported to have licensed those Atlantic albums for reissue on her own Aretha Records via Universal, but nothing seems to have come of that since. The story was she was holding out for money. Perhaps her estate will get things moving - hopefully also Luther's.

There are various O.C. Smith albums I'd love to see reissued, including especially "Love changes". That one would probably require the cooperation of Universal, which acquired Motown which originally bought the rights from South Bay in a deal that went sour and saw Motown burying the album soon after reissuing it as a Motown release.

[Thinksmart]

I don't think we have had any high quality CDs dedicated to Ric Tic or Golden World.  The songs are compiled but spread across others. But getting the original singles from the masters compiled properly on CD would be welcome.  There are the usual less-than-official compilations with the usual murky quality, but they do not do the job.

[davidwapples]

no ric tic ,golden world or wingate cd compilations have ever been released as far as I know , there are full run bootleg compilations for rictic and several golden world and wingate cds with most of the tracks on

[Thinksmart]

Yes I have the bootleg ones but I do not know of any official ones done from the masters as you confirm. The Bootleg ones are generally bad in terms of sound quality.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Thinksmart

[davidwapples]

Yes the full run on rictic I have i think was done from a tape collection many years ago , the golden world stuff is not too bad but I don't think there will be a full reissue of the label as the rights are complicated I read before

[Chalky]

5 hours ago, Mickey Finn said:

Yes, I've read that Luther himself blocked reissue of these. According to someone online, he was holding out for big bucks (see comment at bottom of link):

https://luthervandrossearlyyears.wordpress.com/2011/07/06/luther-1976-cotillion-records/

Some years back Aretha was reported to have licensed those Atlantic albums for reissue on her own Aretha Records via Universal, but nothing seems to have come of that since. The story was she was holding out for money. Perhaps her estate will get things moving - hopefully also Luther's.

There are various O.C. Smith albums I'd love to see reissued, including especially "Love changes". That one would probably require the cooperation of Universal, which acquired Motown which originally bought the rights from South Bay in a deal that went sour and saw Motown burying the album soon after reissuing it as a Motown release.

There is no mention in his biography of any talk for a deal, he did purchase the rights and masters though.  Luther said the two Lps sold a combined total of 14 copies.  You should be able to pick the Lps up for a reasonable price.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Chalky

[Chalky]

2 hours ago, davidwapples said:

Yes the full run on rictic I have i think was done from a tape collection many years ago , the golden world stuff is not too bad but I don't think there will be a full reissue of the label as the rights are complicated I read before

I presume the rights now belong to Universal who own Motown?

[Mickey Finn]

7 minutes ago, Chalky said:

There is no mention in his biography of any talk for a deal, he did purchase the rights and masters though.  Luther said the two Lps sold a combined total of 14 copies.  You should be able to pick the Lps up for a reasonable price.

Yes, I found my copies years ago in bargain bins, and in reasonable nick. Discogs has some cheap copies available, especially of the first LP. Considering the interest in the revived "Don't wanna be a fool" over the last couple of years and the fact that Luther remains more widely popular, a reissue would be almost guaranteed to generate above average returns, especially if it was a twofer and promoted properly.

[Thinksmart]

To keep this thread going I also welcome quality reissues on CD of:

Gary Taylor' - G.T.

Rockie Robbins - first album

Ronnie McNeir - S.T. 1975

Thanks

Mark

[Nathan]

12 replies, and only one of them actually relating to the questions I asked... 

[Ady Croasdell]

On 01/07/2020 at 13:00, Thinksmart said:

Yes I have the bootleg ones but I do not know of any official ones done from the masters as you confirm. The Bootleg ones are generally bad in terms of sound quality.

I don’t think any tapes have got out of Motown so I doubt the Ric Tic would be kosher 

[Ady Croasdell]

Great thread, comments duly noted. We do charge an extra quid or two for borderline products and have not had many, if any, complaints so hopefully serious collectors get it

[Mickey Finn]

7 hours ago, Nathan said:

12 replies, and only one of them actually relating to the questions I asked... 

Well ... I don't often come across Kent cds that are discounted, for example. Brand new they are usually fetching 13-14 quid for singles, whereas I often find those coming out via Cherry Red for much less, anything between 8 and 11 quid. But whereas Cherry Red releases (at least those on the labels that interest me) seem to have dried up a fair bit the Kents keep on coming. I'm buying most of their new releases and playing catch up with a lot of back catalogue. The new Thom Bell comp is next in line, along with the GWP collections, for example. 

For doubles, depending on the content, I'd normally go as high as 22, unless it was something extra special.

The Cherry Red releases vary in the quality of the info attached - BBR, Soulmusic.com and Shout have all been consistently good for those of us with trainspotting tendencies, although in recent times Soulmusic has been cutting a few corners - for understandable reasons, but when your main market is serious collectors, you have to be careful not to cut too far.

US reissue specialist Wounded Bird offers well remastered albums with original artwork and recording details but nothing more for a discount price, normally around a tenner GBP. Many of their reissues quickly sell out and end up going for stupid money. The Jamie/Guyden reissues and comps offer a similar type of package although in my experience tend to be more standard priced. And then there are labels like Numero (upper end of the price spectrum but backed with well-researched notes), Now Again, Light in the Attic and AOTN all digging up some wonderful rare or previously unreleased stuff. For AOTN, I'd like to see some more detail on the releases (e.g., Billy Bruner). Would be nice also to see some more cd releases from Soul Junction, which until now have been standard priced.

[Ady Croasdell]

We’ve never really discounted heavily to get rid of old stock so that the people who paid full price don’t feel cheated. Interesting you’re going for the GWPs as I was just thinking that they’re ten or more years old but if I did them today they’d be about the same in terms of tracks and info 

[Mickey Finn]

From a marketing perspective there's solid logic in not discounting even older stock - given the work that's gone into producing not only well remastered sound but also consistently informative illustrated liner notes on high quality paper, the customer understands that this is a quality purchase, built to last.

Hmmm, those Dave Hamilton comps look tasty ...

[davidwapples]

John Powney used to do the kent cds for £8-50 delivered and the goldmone ones for a pound less but they usually go for around the 12 / 15 quid with postage  , people never seem to get rid of these like other cds so it must say lots about the quality and contents as they are not about in 2nd hand record cd sections

[Mickey Finn]

That's a great observation, spot on.

Recently a lot of the Outta Sight comps have been available cheap as chips (except those that disappeared fast and now are as cheap as caviar). Lots of good stuff on those, and some good notes too.

[Davemac3]

Kent CDs are a decent price if you buy them direct, some vendors on Amazon are taking the mick but reissuesdirect always has decent prices and great service.  I buy most of the Kent CDs.  I think £15 for a premium CD and £23-25 for a double would be reasonable.

[Ady Croasdell]

Actually that’s a point, if you buy direct from our Bus Stop mail order we get a bigger share thereby making more marginal projects more viable 

[Davemac3]

Kent also have free delivery which helps  

Edited July 5, 2020 by davemac3

[Nathan]

On 05/07/2020 at 17:54, Ady Croasdell said:

Great thread, comments duly noted. We do charge an extra quid or two for borderline products and have not had many, if any, complaints so hopefully serious collectors get it

Given the reputation you've (deservedly) built up over the years, I think punters would be happy to pay extra for something coming from Kent/Ace (and probably the same for Bear Family). I was more trying to gauge whether people overall would would be happy to pay extra for borderline products generally/from other labels.
Given that Mickey Finn's the only one who replied to my question, I've still no idea. 

[Mickey Finn]

Presumably Ace's limited editions do well enough for them to continue. As I said above, it would be good if there were at least some info attached re recordings. For example AOTN's "Disco with a feeling" comp contains a lot of great music but not any info about the contents - not even year of release. That's the kind of thing associated with boots. Considering that the compiler and/or the label owner/manager are most likely enthusiastic crate diggers and keen to know more about the background to what they're putting out, it seems a bit shoddy to just put stuff out without any info whatsoever. So I think the answer to your original question depends a lot on what sort of package the record company is prepared to put out, i.e., in addition to the music itself, what sort of info, liner notes, photos, etc. Considering the target market, that counts as investment rather than expense.

[Thinksmart]

"Given that Mickey Finn's the only one who replied to my question, I've still no idea."

I gave a comprehensive answer as your first reply at the start, that was very clear on what'll pay as a premium.  I've contributed since and it gets just a touch frustrating when you have said a couple of times that nobody has replied to the question when I and others are trying to help.

It's not really a simple yes or no anyway to whether someone will pay a premium on CD, it depends on the item. One person's must have Disco or Gospel album is not attractive to the mid-60s specialist who wants Deep or Northern Soul only. The value also reflects how much of an artist been reissued and do they have collector or dancefloor interest.

To be more specific for you, for the right CD I and others already pay a premium, it depends on the item.  I'm less fussed about Funk so wouldn't pay a premium for that, but for CDs more in my area of interest - sure, so long as it feels sensible.

I'll pay up to about £15 for the right release, but after that I start to question it a lot more if there is only one or two songs on an otherwise poor album.  Modern Soul is especially prone to this, with one song often on a pure Disco album that I have little wider interest in.

For the 1975 Ronnie McNeir album as an example (or any of the albums mentioned as not on CD yet here and in other threads), I'd pay up to around £20 but haven't bought the Japanese reissue going for £40+ on import as that just doesn't sit well with me. For some rare imports with songs on I cannot get any other way, I'll often end up paying in the £15-£30 range.

The reissued Rivage album is available now for £11 on CD, whereas the Spaceark reissues in recent years were £15 from the start.

I hope that is helpful.  

Edited July 19, 2020 by Thinksmart

[Windlesoul]

On 19/07/2020 at 11:26, Mickey Finn said:

Presumably Ace's limited editions do well enough for them to continue. As I said above, it would be good if there were at least some info attached re recordings. For example AOTN's "Disco with a feeling" comp contains a lot of great music but not any info about the contents - not even year of release. That's the kind of thing associated with boots. Considering that the compiler and/or the label owner/manager are most likely enthusiastic crate diggers and keen to know more about the background to what they're putting out, it seems a bit shoddy to just put stuff out without any info whatsoever. So I think the answer to your original question depends a lot on what sort of package the record company is prepared to put out, i.e., in addition to the music itself, what sort of info, liner notes, photos, etc. Considering the target market, that counts as investment rather than expense.

Agree completely. As a freelance writer working in music / biographies, I'm 100% for thoroughly researched, documented and presented music media, and to share that information with the customer. Whether it's as part of the on-line promotion, or part of the package presentation / liner booklets etc, it's all about preservation of soul music history, and shows the customer that the label cares about their product. And of course from a commercial perspective, adds value. Ace / Kent have always had this sorted, and is a major part of their appeal and respect.

There are other opportunities which I genuinely believe are as yet under-exploited by the industry, such as literature based on the research which could be used to support the launch of a series or box-set of (eg) CD releases. Books / booklets / ebooks and other formats could provide another income stream to support the product and capture the genre-specific record buying market, as well as external reader markets interested in wider music history. Invest to save. I'm for hire...

Edited August 24, 2020 by Windlesoul