Larry Allen or L Allen

[Julianb]

Hi guys, 

I've  been reading conflicting reports about which is the rarest copy of Can't we talk it over.

I'm sure all you knowledgeable people out there will put me straight!

TIA

[John A]

Supposedly Larry is the rarer, however there's been a U.S. seller drip feeding a few out lately on eBay so who knows.

[Soul16]

From my experience of what I've seen, I would say that Larry is the rarest version. 

I'd be keen to know how come there are two versions though.

[Floyd]

Hi

I thought L.Allen was the first issue not Larry Allen which was pressed after L.Allen

this was massive at Yate Allnighters and i believe this is where it was first made big

if memory serves me right probably for Ian clark

great record , great Allnighter

ATB

Floyd

Edited March 17, 2020 by Floyd

[Winsford Soul]

1 hour ago, Julianb said:

Hi guys, 

I've  been reading conflicting reports about which is the rarest copy of Can't we talk it over.

I'm sure all you knowledgeable people out there will put me straight!

TIA

Julian.  The L Allen was always historically about £50 cheaper than the Larry Allen . So I would assume that the Larry version was the rarer of the two.  Hope that helps.  

[Steviehay]

As steve above states 

[A Way Of Life]

Had them both at one time , sold the L.Allen as the Larry Allen is stone Mint.

[Julianb]

20 minutes ago, a way of life said:

Had them both at one time , sold the L.Allen as the Larry Allen is stone Mint.

Do they both play the same tune? Sorry for being stupid!

[Tlscapital]

28 minutes ago, a way of life said:

Had them both at one time , sold the L.Allen as the Larry Allen is stone Mint.

My first copy 20 years ago was a L. Allen bought directly from the USA in G+ condition. Worn and scruffy from a rough life but still playable with snaps and pops. Then I manage to trade a L. Allen copy in Ex condition from a UK seller who said that he had just "upgraded"his copy for a rarer Larry Allen one. But when I finally got to see a Larry Allen copy I remained unimpressed. 

Few years ago I was reading stories on here on Soul Source with knowledgeable people like Dave Thorley about the L. Allen copies first being found and brought from the USA. After what some Larry Allen copies started surfacing... as a rarer, supposedly first pressing with the full name... But with the 'A' side of 'somewhere there is paradise' for the L. Allen and a Band of Angels credits...

[Rare Toones]

The L Allen is the first press, Larry Allen the second. The second press (Larry) surfaced a couple of years or so after Dave Raistick and Arther Fenn discovered it around '81. The second press was always a little more in price, but I have seen more of the second press in recent years, probably not a lot in it. Great Record out of Pittsburgh, I believe.

[Floyd]

Hi

I agree with Tiscapital, i still think L.Allen is the first press, most copies of it are worn including my own the Larry Allens only emerged after it was big at yate and most copies are Ex / M- which to me is a bit suspicious 

the Larry Allens look to new compared to L.Allen but hey thats just my  opinion

ATB

Floyd

Edited March 17, 2020 by Floyd

[Frankie Crocker]

6 minutes ago, Rare Toones said:

The L Allen is the first press, Larry Allen the second. The second press (Larry) surfaced a couple of years or so after Dave Raistick and Arther Fenn discovered it around '81. The second press was always a little more in price, but I have seen more of the second press in recent years, probably not a lot in it. Great Record out of Pittsburgh, I believe.

Very interesting. If there genuinely is a first press, then the price should be way above what might actually be a second issue. I sort of assumed they were all done at the same time but maybe at different pressing plants. The guy who has been trickling them out at $1,000 a pop had some interesting info in his sales blurb when I last bid on his mint copies.

So, are we assuming the mint copies date from the 80’s? They look very 60’s to me!

I have a rough copy from The Attic in Pittsburgh in need of an upgrade but I reckon I’ll hang back a bit longer to see how this saga unfolds...

[Tlscapital]

3 hours ago, Frankie Crocker said:

Very interesting. If there genuinely is a first press, then the price should be way above what might actually be a second issue. I sort of assumed they were all done at the same time but maybe at different pressing plants. The guy who has been trickling them out at $1,000 a pop had some interesting info in his sales blurb when I last bid on his mint copies.

So, are we assuming the mint copies date from the 80’s? They look very 60’s to me!

I have a rough copy from The Attic in Pittsburgh in need of an upgrade but I reckon I’ll hang back a bit longer to see how this saga unfolds...

Well, they're both done at the same pressing plant. Some copies of the Larry Allen sold on the eVilBay over the years and few were in not so great shape. But that doesn't tell something when there's money to be made... Not implying this is necessary the case here, but it could also be some forgery.

Mind you beside the different shade of green print, the Larry versus the L. and the move of the 'Jerry Reed Production' credits either at bottom or middle right, I love the annotation on the real 'A' side under the L. Allen 'and a band of angels'. Why this change ? For 'air play' clearer presentation ?

This could be and explain why more copies of the Larry Allen came out later and cleaner as the 'second' release success wouldn't have made it to the sales and poped-up later as NOS. Only a theory but they looks so close to each one another it's hard to tell if they're really contemporary or not.

Hence from this previous tread a Dave Thorley comment; The Label was owned by the same guy that owned Jeree records, Jerry Reed. The studio was still open up until a few years ago and you could walk in and just chat to Jerry and the other guys there. The studio was a contract studio, where they would record anyone that walked in the door and paid their money. As part of the deal they could arrange records to be pressed or just put it out on the Jeree label.

 

Edited March 17, 2020 by Tlscapital
sentencing

[Tlscapital]

1 hour ago, Rare Toones said:

The L Allen is the first press, Larry Allen the second. The second press (Larry) surfaced a couple of years or so after Dave Raistick and Arther Fenn discovered it around '81. The second press was always a little more in price, but I have seen more of the second press in recent years, probably not a lot in it. Great Record out of Pittsburgh, I believe.

Many examples as such where people give wrongly an "alternative" press the "first" press annotation because then, or just to them, it's rarer as "unusual" and so... But not ! Sometimes at least it's not the case. In this case many leads are not so reassuring about the Larry Allen copies I feel.

[Tiberius]

Here's the link to the one sold on ebay.com the other day -

https://www.ebay.com/itm/L-Allen-Version-45-034-Can-039-t-We-Talk-It-Over-034-Northern-Soul-First-Press-G-amp-C-115-B-/293512692503?hash=item4456b84317%3Ag%3AYR8AAOSwcw1ebptT&LH_BIN=1&nma=true&si=pWd2%252BMb7HZfSZXG0aaOSE2Z8npE%253D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

According to the sellers sales blurb  -

"I can attest that this is a very rare first pressing of L Allen's record.  I was a friend of L Allen when I was living in Western Pennsylvania USA in the 1960s and he gave me some copies of his record.   This original first version has L Allen on the label.  There are not many great copies of the original pressing in 1965.   I actually witnessed L Allen singing his record live at a high school in Washington Pennsylvania.  I was part of his supporting stage crew and DJ. Let my 100% feedback rating speak for my character.

Based on the snippet below there may only be 100 or less original first press copies of this record in existence.

snippet of information interesting...
Larry Allen was from Greensburg, PA. Jerry Reed, who owned the label, had 1000 copies pressed. 500 as Larry Allen and 500 as L. Allen. It was released in the fall of 1965.

Jerry got frustrated because the record didn't sell and at the time he had an old car that he was junking, and he threw around 900 copies of the record into the trunk to be crushed and remelted"

 

 

[Tlscapital]

18 minutes ago, tiberius said:

Here's the link to the one sold on ebay.com the other day -

According to the sellers sales blurb  -

"I can attest that this is a very rare first pressing of L Allen's record.  I was a friend of L Allen when I was living in Western Pennsylvania USA in the 1960s and he gave me some copies of his record.   This original first version has L Allen on the label.  There are not many great copies of the original pressing in 1965.   I actually witnessed L Allen singing his record live at a high school in Washington Pennsylvania.  I was part of his supporting stage crew and DJ. Let my 100% feedback rating speak for my character.

Based on the snippet below there may only be 100 or less original first press copies of this record in existence.

snippet of information interesting...
Larry Allen was from Greensburg, PA. Jerry Reed, who owned the label, had 1000 copies pressed. 500 as Larry Allen and 500 as L. Allen. It was released in the fall of 1965.

Jerry got frustrated because the record didn't sell and at the time he had an old car that he was junking, and he threw around 900 copies of the record into the trunk to be crushed and remelted"

 

 

The sellers blurb sounds genuine to me and he mentions a certain L. Allen rathe that a Larry ! But he evidently tries to sell a L. Allen copy...

The snippet on the other hand is some words spread here and there on the net and borrowed as a "tell tale". How true is all that in real ?

Edited March 17, 2020 by Tlscapital

[Winsford Soul]

1 hour ago, tiberius said:

Here's the link to the one sold on ebay.com the other day -

https://www.ebay.com/itm/L-Allen-Version-45-034-Can-039-t-We-Talk-It-Over-034-Northern-Soul-First-Press-G-amp-C-115-B-/293512692503?hash=item4456b84317%3Ag%3AYR8AAOSwcw1ebptT&LH_BIN=1&nma=true&si=pWd2%2BMb7HZfSZXG0aaOSE2Z8npE%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

According to the sellers sales blurb  -

"I can attest that this is a very rare first pressing of L Allen's record.  I was a friend of L Allen when I was living in Western Pennsylvania USA in the 1960s and he gave me some copies of his record.   This original first version has L Allen on the label.  There are not many great copies of the original pressing in 1965.   I actually witnessed L Allen singing his record live at a high school in Washington Pennsylvania.  I was part of his supporting stage crew and DJ. Let my 100% feedback rating speak for my character.

Based on the snippet below there may only be 100 or less original first press copies of this record in existence.

snippet of information interesting...
Larry Allen was from Greensburg, PA. Jerry Reed, who owned the label, had 1000 copies pressed. 500 as Larry Allen and 500 as L. Allen. It was released in the fall of 1965.

Jerry got frustrated because the record didn't sell and at the time he had an old car that he was junking, and he threw around 900 copies of the record into the trunk to be crushed and remelted"

 

 

If there's 500 of each and he then decided to trash  approximately 900 that would have been 100 copies left and  as  mentioned there's about 100 L Allen's ,there should be no Larry Allen records at all . Something doesn't add up to me. Or have I totally  missed something 

Edited March 17, 2020 by Winsford Soul

[Tlscapital]

8 minutes ago, Winsford Soul said:

If there's 500 of each and he then decided to trash  approximately 900 that would have been 100 copies left and  as  mentioned there's about 100 L Allen's ,there should be no Larry Allen records at all . Something doesn't add up to me. Or have I totally  missed something 

What specific source mentions that exactly ? A name ? It's a "tell tale" I've read here and there but without a name to back it up some or to counter verify...

Numbers evidently don't add up in my book neither. Like you I'd have believe more than double that of copies just in circulation plus those still sitting uncovered.

[Winsford Soul]

4 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

What specific source mentions that exactly ? A name ? It's a "tell tale" I've read here and there but without a name to back it up some or to counter verify...

Numbers evidently don't add up in my book neither. Like you I'd have believe more than double that of copies just in circulation plus those still sitting uncovered.

The post from Tiberius mentioned the 100 L Allen's. 

[Tlscapital]

4 minutes ago, Winsford Soul said:

The post from Tiberius mentioned the 100 L Allen's. 

No it's older and taken 'as is' from the eVilBay auction guy who was friend with L. Allen who took it from somewhere on the net. I've read that bit before as from a text borrowed somewhere else... About to become a legend  Even on '45cat.com' it's copied, pasted and commented as such...

[Jimmy Mack]

I had a L.Allen back in the day with a slight warp at the edge bought for £30 from manship thats all you saw at the time as there was a few about 

 

[Winsford Soul]

Bought my L Allen off the legend that is Steve Whittle 

[Vadnochka]

Bought my old copy in @ 92 from Rudzi at Boogaloo in Granby St. Leicester - my home town £90 - £110 can't remember exactly and think it was a L. Allen - sold it sometime between 95 - 97 when I packed up dJ'ing and sold up to Chaddie / Carl & Maria and Kenny Burrelland a few others.

[The Yank]

This article from Record World (May 14, 1966) does show that at the time of the record's release,

there were copies made with Larry Allen as the artist. They did get the labels reversed in the 

article though (Larry Allen on Jerree etc.) 

[Tlscapital]

8 hours ago, The Yank said:

This article from Record World (May 14, 1966) does show that at the time of the record's release, there were copies made with Larry Allen as the artist.

OK, this is a great little piece of paper and could leave us to understand that the Larry Allen is a rerun/second release to supply either a public demand or a re-promotion campaign for the 'somewhere there is paradise' side as this article from mid 1966 highlight to back-up the label company "hit" records.

So if we could understand that the record was issued first by fall 1965 as L. Allen And A Band Of Angels which is not the best name to promote even more so for the DJs on air-play to say the least. Still facing up with some local success (or further some) a smart move would be to simplify the credits while repress it.

A bit like the Edwin Starr on Ric-Tic first batch title 'Agent OO Soul' quickly changed to 'Agent double O soul' due to issue for the radio DJs to present/promote the record title correctly. Maybe was the Larry Allen was (re-)pressed for similar reasons. Even if it should have been Leonard Allen...

The numbering catalogue of Jerry Reed's Jeree and Green Dolphin labels seem of utter simplicity. As the labels here below show the numbering starts with the last two numbers of the year (65-66) followed by the chronology of issued sides (1 & 2, 3 & 4, 5 & 7...) leaving little doubt for the year of release.

So L. Allen was 65-7 & 65-8. The Larry Allen release used the same number. Even with a gap after this 65-7 & 65-8 Green Dolphin release with the only following number I could find being the Caprees on Jeree 66-13 & 66-14 as quoted in the small paper article from May 1966. So L. Allen is 1965 and Larry Allen 1966 maybe ?

Edited March 18, 2020 by Tlscapital

[Tlscapital]

The same guy with the blurb & snippet who sold his L. Allen on the evilBay as shown here above sold a (at least one)  Larry Allen as well... Does he have that 900 batch copies out of Jerry's car trunk ?

[Julianb]

Anyone know if the deadwax markings are the same for both releases?

[Tlscapital]

2 minutes ago, Julianb said:

Anyone know if the deadwax markings are the same for both releases?

Yes they are made from the very same stamper believe.

[Frankie Crocker]

16 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

The same guy with the blurb & snippet who sold his L. Allen on the evilBay as shown here above sold a (at least one)  Larry Allen as well... Does he have that 900 batch copies out of Jerry's car trunk ?

Taking into account the recent sale, he has had at least another two on the market as I bid on them. There may even have been another one. So he had a small stash of Larry Allens, leaked out one by one over the last couple of years. There may be more to come. Not sure if any second chance offers were made but if the underbidder had offered a thousand dollars or more, it would make sense to double your money by putting up another for a quick sale. Either way, the bit about stumbling across a second mint copy does not ring true.

[Vadnochka]

yes, I agree - this guy has listed more than 3 over the last couple of yrs. - same provenance blurb - right from the second one I've wondered just how many does he have and at what rate will they be offered - lets be honest this sound in either guise has been in huge demand at whatever the market rate has been for at least the last 35yrs. - you could conclude that all these mint / nm copies must of come from original alleged chucked in the trunk 900 given the complexity of the provenance story unless there is something more sinister about these surfacing in qty in 2018 - onwards.

Buyer beware as always - and let's not forget in any given week somewhere / somehow remarkable 45's keep surfacing - I know I've had some myself on a continuous basis since I re-started collecting in 2011. Even last week a mis-pressed Mr. Dunn - 'Something is wrong' on Lauradunn - only because a guy in USA pulled out of the deal because he wanted the ballad title that was not actually on the 45 - probably explains it's rarity. 

[Julianb]

A seller in the US has been drip feeding Little Tommy - Baby can't you see over the last 4 or 5 years. He has one on ebay at the moment, so maybe these 'finds' are still out there?

[Carty]

Maybe the 900 doomed copies were rescued somewhere between the  trunk  and the crusher/remelter ?  Several  copies of this were available  in the record bar at Wigan in the summer of 1980 for £ 25.00.  A big play for Rushbrooke at the time . 

[Tlscapital]

Would it rather be not the other way around whatever the real figures are... 900 (or less) sold and 100 (or more) went "in the trunk" of Jerry's car to be smashed and melted back. Which was the way in the USA before the unsold records found their way into the 'drilled' and 'cut outs' sales stacks.

Would Jerry Reed really do a repress of a record with a revised "easier" artist credit that did not sell some in the first place ? I seem to remember reading that 'somewhere there is a paradise' had some air play success amongst the teens and high school circles. And that seems rather plausible.

[Soul16]

What a fascinating read this thread has turned out to be. You guys are a fountain of knowledge. Great stuff  .

[Winsford Soul]

1 hour ago, Soul16 said:

What a fascinating read this thread has turned out to be. You guys are a fountain of knowledge. Great stuff  .

I know.  Love the information that's available on here,  never ceases to amaze me even after all these years 

[Frankie Crocker]

8 hours ago, Julianb said:

A seller in the US has been drip feeding Little Tommy - Baby can't you see over the last 4 or 5 years. He has one on ebay at the moment, so maybe these 'finds' are still out there?

Not a find as such. He’s lucked onto a small hoard left behind by the artist or producer. The better finds at present are from estate sales of record company executives, representatives and employees such as the hauls coming out of Santa Cruz and Terre Haute. The trick is to drip them out one by one without flooding the market - now the Larry Allen cat is out of the bag, we may see the price fall. I hope so as I was getting fed up of my bids not winning.

[Ady Croasdell]

I always thought they were different musically but played a couple on YouTube and they sound the same. Must have been off my box when I heard the Larry version. I got a copy off Shifty and when it arrived I played it and thought what a shit record. Then I played it out and it sounded wonderful, it’s the only record I can think of that does that to me 

[Tlscapital]

1 hour ago, Ady Croasdell said:

I always thought they were different musically but played a couple on YouTube and they sound the same. Must have been off my box when I heard the Larry version. I got a copy off Shifty and when it arrived I played it and thought what a shit record. Then I played it out and it sounded wonderful, it’s the only record I can think of that does that to me 

That is the Desmond Dekker's 'Israelite' lyric symptom. Every time you heard it heard it you heard different lyrics...  But it's the same song.

Play a record out that you thought first was "shite"  Only a committed "northern soul" DJ could do that  That I just couldn't. But indeed I am not a DJ, only occasionally, and I can fill the floor with the same commitment as to keep it empty for pure solo musical pleasure. Mods and Rockers might have a hard time there but who cares right ?

On the same note I must admit that some records that were not doing much for me in the first place when occasionally played out loud could take another 'wider' dimension  Making me wonder/thinking for 5 minutes if maybe I didn't got it right on the first hearing. But once I stop to wonder/thinking, the heart sets the record straight again.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Tlscapital
enlightening answer

[Ady Croasdell]

It’s the only one that affects me like that. I play it because it sounds brilliant loud and is terrific to dance to 

[Md Records]

Went to a small record show in Pittsburgh two years ago and a local guy and his son were selling a pile of records they had acquired, displayed in an assortment of metal, wooden, cardboard and generally inappropriate boxes, and obviously had no interest or knowledge in vinyl. They wanted to turn these things quickly into cash and said that everything was half price - I found the L. Allen (displayed and labelled for the other side) in there as well as a pile of other stuff that was priced $4, 6$ but nothing over $8 - When he totalled up the stack he pulled the L.Allen out to one side as it was marked $40, my heart stopped and he said "Does $6 for this work for you?" I graciously accepted the offer.

[Frankie Crocker]

2 hours ago, Soul Inc said:

Went to a small record show in Pittsburgh two years ago and a local guy and his son were selling a pile of records they had acquired, displayed in an assortment of metal, wooden, cardboard and generally inappropriate boxes, and obviously had no interest or knowledge in vinyl. They wanted to turn these things quickly into cash and said that everything was half price - I found the L. Allen (displayed and labelled for the other side) in there as well as a pile of other stuff that was priced $4, 6$ but nothing over $8 - When he totalled up the stack he pulled the L.Allen out to one side as it was marked $40, my heart stopped and he said "Does $6 for this work for you?" I graciously accepted the offer.

What condition is the condition in? The two I’ve see for sale in Pittsburgh were on the rough side.

[Md Records]

Clean copy

[Julianb]

Hi Guys

Thanks for all the information - very knowledgeable as expected.

It's been posted earlier that the deadwax readings are the same for both.

My L.Allen copy reads on the 'Somewhere' side  G&C -115 -A      PARADISE   can someone please confirm same on Larry Allen?

TIA

Julian

[Ady Potts]

3 hours ago, Julianb said:

Hi Guys

Thanks for all the information - very knowledgeable as expected.

It's been posted earlier that the deadwax readings are the same for both.

My L.Allen copy reads on the 'Somewhere' side  G&C -115 -A      PARADISE   can someone please confirm same on Larry Allen?

TIA

Julian

Hi Julian

Yes that's what the Larry Allen has.

Ady

[Julianb]

12 minutes ago, Pottsy said:

Hi Julian

Yes that's what the Larry Allen has.

Ady

Cheers Ady

[Tlscapital]

Jeree Records's numbering system seems a bit all over the place. Early releases used two numbering system. One for the release and another one for to date (?) the sessions maybe ? Jeree 100 65-3 & 65-4 and Jeree 101 65-1 & 65-2.

Indicating earlier sessions released after later ones or something of that sort. Jeree release G&C 114 65-5 & 65-6 predating L. Allen's next release on Green Dolphin label is just following with its numberings G&C 115 65-7 & 65-8.

Likely indicating a late 1965 release for L. Allen. While Jeree G&C 117 is also 65-7 & 65-8 !!! Anyway. At least this corroborates the 1965 release theory of the L. Allen and the Band Of Angels release to be set more likely in 1965.

The Record World article snippet of May 1966 credits Larry Allen and not L. Allen release. So could it be that the Larry Allen release was a second 1966 run of press after the L.Allen one ? Remember reading that locally 'Somewhere There is Paradise' got some success. But could it be that they over evaluate the demand while it was taming down ?

[Billy Jo Jim Bob]

A mate visited Jerry Reed many years ago and Jerry gave him a copy of L Allen that was up on the wall in his house / studio. 
He asked about L Allen versus Larry Allen, and Reed said he didn’t press any copies as Larry Allen and did not know where these originated. He asked his recording engineer to confirm this, which he did. He also confirmed that L Allen’s name was in fact Leonard not Larry, which is usually an abbreviation for Lawarence. I believe he also said Leonard was a local sports journalist, but memory is fading a little.

If you were wondering about the vocal,  L was stood in the toilet singing as a makeshift recording booth according to Reed.

Make if that what you will

Andy
 

 

[Tlscapital]

28 minutes ago, Billy Jo Jim Bob said:

A mate visited Jerry Reed many years ago and Jerry gave him a copy of L Allen that was up on the wall in his house / studio. 
He asked about L Allen versus Larry Allen, and Reed said he didn’t press any copies as Larry Allen and did not know where these originated. He asked his recording engineer to confirm this, which he did. He also confirmed that L Allen’s name was in fact Leonard not Larry, which is usually an abbreviation for Lawarence. I believe he also said Leonard was a local sports journalist, but memory is fading a little.

If you were wondering about the vocal,  L was stood in the toilet singing as a makeshift recording booth according to Reed.

Make if that what you will

Andy

This is a great little 'tell tale'. Thanks for that. Even the toilet bit is spicy IMB. Fab. Just as it is strange as unless the Larry Allen pressings doesn't share the actual scratched in matrix (I never could compare but only read that they were "matching") they both seem to come from the same pressing plant at least. Going by what the label seem to indicate.

But then what about the Record World snippet article promoting Jerry Reed's Record Company stall naming Larry Allen ? This indicates that by 1966 (few months only after the release of the L. Allen release) that this release was still regarded with greater commercial appeal and potential but under the Larry Allen credit. It's mind puzzling somehow...

[Mal C]

[Sutty]

23 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

 Just as it is strange as unless the Larry Allen pressings doesn't share the actual scratched in matrix (I never could compare but only read that they were "matching") they both seem to come from the same pressing plant at least. Going by what the label seem to indicate.

 

Record is cut, metal stamper(s) made, record pressed from stamper(s). Anyone that then has a stamper, take it to a pressing plant and get the record pressed again and you get an identical record with identical run out, unless the plant has its own markings it uses to indicate where it was pressed. If the first and second pressing plants don’t do that, it will be identical in every way, and if they happen to have an over run of labels… bingo! Nobody will ever see the difference (not the case here, as the labels are not the same)

cheers Sutty