Will Smoking Ban Improve Venues?

[Guest]

You could always smoke bootlegged fags Pete

Nice One LOL

[Guest]

About 50% of my customers smoke,

Strange that because only 28% of UK populatuion smoke!!! Lets get real on this we are in the 21st centuary. It is a dirty, smelly etc etc habit and should only be carried out by consenting adults in private.

The comments about dog ends by doors is also interesting. What do smokers think happens to them? Anyone though of putting them in your pocket and taking home?

I remember one top DJ (I will not mention his name) putting his dog ends in a pint pot along with some dreggings of beer and a fair amount of fag ash. Pretty disgusting!!!

I pick them up and make rolleys

[Dave Rimmer]

Maybe I should go out and spend the whole night farting if people don't think sitting in a smelly room's offensive

You haven't met John Weston then

[Guest]

I wasn't actually trying to raise that argument! Ah well. Bloke down the road from me, fit as a fiddle, ate only organic food, hardly ever drank, played non contact sports at every opportunity and worked as a yoga instructor. Got knocked down and killed by a bus while he was out training for a marathon. He'd have been better off sat at home having a fag and some pork pies. Probably still be alive now. Etc

Nice 1 LOL

[MarkWhiteley]

Have attended a few Non - Smoking venues recently, Morts rockingham Bash and Yocky's Empress Rooms spring to mind, and as a Smoker of some 30 odd years ,found that instead of coming home with an empty pack and a fiver down to replace them said pack has then lasted next couple of days. I have always been an all weather outside smoker - (cant smoke int house!) so Im not too worried about having an odd un outside. However will it come that we will be moved on from venue doorways and cast aside? - then wot?

At the moment can only see the ban will save me money and maybe a slight improvement in my health!

Could always try to stop........ If only Id never smoked

never bought expensive records

never learned to drive

HOW RICH WOULD I BE ! If I were to add up wot I spent on cigs cars and records...............WOW

[paultp]

About 50% of my customers smoke,

Strange that because only 28% of UK populatuion smoke!!! Lets get real on this we are in the 21st centuary. It is a dirty, smelly etc etc habit and should only be carried out by consenting adults in private.

The comments about dog ends by doors is also interesting. What do smokers think happens to them? Anyone though of putting them in your pocket and taking home?

I remember one top DJ (I will not mention his name) putting his dog ends in a pint pot along with some dreggings of beer and a fair amount of fag ash. Pretty disgusting!!!

You may think it is strange but 50% of my customers do smoke, I know cos I counted them over a period of 4 weeks.

Seems ridiculous for you to disagree with my statistic when you have no way of disproving it but I will agree with yours and use it to point out that the two together show that smokers use pubs more than non-smokers. So why should it be banned when both parties are adequately catered for?

Sorry if that isn't your idea of "getting real", but I kind of like the idea of freedom for personal choice.

I don't smoke but I respect someone's choice to do so (as long as they don't blow their smoke at me).

Cheers

Paul

[Mike]

the posts with that crap photo in have been deleted

wanna draw attention to such things then post a link

[mort]

A few posts before [ Rod if i remember ] i think, thought i was getting @ smokers ! I wasnt & i actually said in a previous ' Rockingham Hall whats on post ' that if it'd been up 2 me, i'd have had somewhere in a room, in the building for a smoking area ! As its council owned / run i dont have that option.

However in reply to Billyboots post, if we are put under some sort of pressure to move smokers from doorways ? [ cant see why ? but we dont make the rules - we just make sure that we dont give anyone oppourtunity to close us down by not adhering to them] I'd buy one of those large garden gazzebo type things & erect it outside somewhere near to entrance.

Its not that we enjoy having to enforce certain rules - its to cover our backs & protect the buildings licence, so we can all continue to have soul nights there

[ its no different to serving ale after hours - you do it & risk getting your licence revoked ! ]

I've put days & days of hard work & plenty of money into getting Rockingham off the ground & i wont allow it to close thru' not sticking to the rules laid down by law or giving some back stabbing a*** hole a chance to shop us.

We dont make the law - we just enforce it !!

Mort

www.60sSOUL.2tunes.com

[Guest]

You may think it is strange but 50% of my customers do smoke, I know cos I counted them over a period of 4 weeks.

Seems ridiculous for you to disagree with my statistic when you have no way of disproving it but I will agree with yours and use it to point out that the two together show that smokers use pubs more than non-smokers. So why should it be banned when both parties are adequately catered for?

Sorry if that isn't your idea of "getting real", but I kind of like the idea of freedom for personal choice.

I don't smoke but I respect someone's choice to do so (as long as they don't blow their smoke at me).

Cheers

Paul

Errrrr.....

"50% of my customers do smoke"

Which means 50% don't...so why do the smokers get the upper hand?

"smokers use pubs more than non smokers"

Not only is it a silly statement, but if it were true....maybe it's because non smokers don't want to be in the smoke?

"freedom of personal choice"

The freedoms still there paultp..it's just outside.

Anyway, as you're selling the pub it'll be great for you cos you won't have to worry about it.

[Guest Baz]

At the end of the day its going to affect venues in a big way, smokers will all be congrigating outside, thus cutting the numbers down inside along witht the atmosphere.

its gonna be a hard one but there you go

[Guest barnsey]

stress probably causes as much cancer as cigs lets face it probably half as many people smoke now as they did 30 year ago and theres no big drop in cancer rate but there is definately a increase in stress (targets at work etc) so instead of getting all wound up argueing on here why not just kick back and crank down a woodbine

[paultp]

Errrrr.....

"50% of my customers do smoke"

Which means 50% don't...so why do the smokers get the upper hand?

They don't get the upper hand as only 30% of my pub is available to smoke in.

In his post he pointed out that although 50% of my customers smoke only 28% of the population as a whole smoke, therefore proportionally smokers use pubs more than non-smokers

"smokers use pubs more than non smokers"

Not only is it a silly statement, but if it were true....maybe it's because non smokers don't want to be in the smoke?

I refer you to the answer I gave earlier to justify my non-silly statement ... we get non smokers too but my point was that the non-smokers who don't go to the pub already still won't when the ban comes in. After the ban non-smokers only will be catered for but smokers will not, whereas now (in my pub at least) both parties are catered for more than adequately.

"freedom of personal choice"

The freedoms still there paultp..it's just outside.

Anyway, as you're selling the pub it'll be great for you cos you won't have to worry about it.

I don't worry about anything cos beer

[paultp]

Errrrr.....

"50% of my customers do smoke"

Which means 50% don't...so why do the smokers get the upper hand?

They don't get the upper hand as only 30% of my pub is available to smoke in.

In his post he pointed out that although 50% of my customers smoke only 28% of the population as a whole smoke, therefore proportionally smokers use pubs more than non-smokers

"smokers use pubs more than non smokers"

Not only is it a silly statement, but if it were true....maybe it's because non smokers don't want to be in the smoke?

I refer you to the answer I gave earlier to justify my non-silly statement ... we get non smokers too but my point was that the non-smokers who don't go to the pub already still won't when the ban comes in. After the ban non-smokers only will be catered for but smokers will not, whereas now (in my pub at least) both parties are catered for more than adequately.

"freedom of personal choice"

The freedoms still there paultp..it's just outside.

Anyway, as you're selling the pub it'll be great for you cos you won't have to worry about it.

I don't worry about anything cos beer is my friend

Edited January 11, 2007 by paultp

[paultp]

Deleted as I seem to have posted twice

Edited January 11, 2007 by paultp

[Bigsoulman]

Not going to add my views on actual smoking, my wife smokes, the smoking ban has been in force up here in Scotland since last March and numbers have started to fall now that the cold weather has come I think people are reluctant to stand outside for a puff, it's ok if the weather is fine outside, overall I don't think the ban has been broken more than a couple of times which to me is remarkable, beleive me when I say this that your local council have their smoke wardens (no kidding) everywhere, and I mean everywhere, the publican will get done for a grand and you will be fined up to £200, and it will also go against the license holder when he or she renews it, scary stuff but I personally think it will affect smaller venue's rather than bigger one's down south, but once the better weather comes in next year numbers will probably start to rise

Lenny

[MarkWhiteley]

I'd buy one of those large garden gazzebo type things & erect it outside somewhere near to entrance.

Mort

www.60sSOUL.2tunes.com

What a thoughtful touch

[Guest]

Once a polly tie tode, a young lad set out in the early mordee, to find it deef wisdom and true love in flower petals arrayed.

[Guest Karen Heath]

Once a polly tie tode, a young lad set out in the early mordee, to find it deef wisdom and true love in flower petals arrayed.

Beautiful!

[Guest Karen Heath]

I don't drink, I'm vegan and I don't take drugs so should be really healthy but no, until 7 months ago I trawled my way through a revolting sum of two packs of cigarettes a day. I wasn't one of those smokers who said they enjoyed it-I hated the smell and the way it made me feel but I was completely addicted and didn't think I could ever stop.

I watched my lovely dad die of lung cancer even though I had persuaded him to give up with me on a previous occasion, (he had kind of stuck to it by having the odd cigar whereas I had gone back to it.) I would leave his hospital bed to go outside for some fags. I knew all the facts, I knew it was costing me a fortune and I knew that it would almost definitely kill me but I couldn't stop.

It was only when I knew the ban was coming that I knew I had to stop. As a control freak, I couldn't contemplate the fact that I would be forbidden from smoking when I was supposed to be out "enjoying" myself! I stopped in May last year but it is not easy.....my main problem is that when I get angry about something, instead of suppressing it as I did before, it comes out! They say that suppressed anger can cause cancer so that means I have doubly improved my chances of not succumbing to cancer........

Yippee-I can carry on being a moody crosspatch-it's for health reasons!

[Guest Karen Heath]

Once a polly tie tode, a young lad set out in the early mordee, to find it deef wisdom and true love in flower petals arrayed.

My ex once went to Stanley Unwins house-I think he was staying on a college campus in the U.S or something and was a family friend. Deep joy!

P.S I'm such a namedropper.

[John Elias]

Don't forget,if you're going to venues in Wales the smoking ban takes affect from 2nd April and it may be useful for promoters to add this into their flyers

[Guest]

My ex once went to Stanley Unwins house-I think he was staying on a college campus in the U.S or something and was a family friend. Deep joy!

P.S I'm such a namedropper.

I'm jealous, I'd like to have met Stanley. I did meet Ivor Cutler once.

[Guest]

As a non-smoker living in Dublin, I think on the whole, the smoking ban has been a success.

Yes there have been times, especially near the start of the ban, when you would be out with a bunch of people, and as the non-smoker in a group of smokers you would regularly find yourself, sitting alone supping booze whilst the rest of 'em were outside shivering in the cold huddled together in the doorway.

Also going into pubs, there would be a group in the doorway of every pub puffing away, which was very annoying.

Also you could go into a seemingly empty pub and not find a seat because tables of smokers would have their beermats over their drinks to indicate - this table is taken, im just outside for a quick fag.

But all in all, it has been a success, no more smelly clothes, no more stinging eyes etc.

I think many soul nights may initially see numbers dwindling for a time, but that eventually, people become accostomed to it and come back, so dont give up!

- Ciara

[Modernsoulsucks]

Donna, I would have thought most people on here had direct experience of a friend or relative dying from cancer in some form. My grandad died from lung cancer annd he did smoke. My dad died from bowel cancer and he didn't. My dad also worked in food processing plant as a printer and it was non-smoking back in the 60's. Not a regular pub-goer either so his exposure to passive smoking wouldn't have been excessive.

I really have no objection to banning smoking as a health risk and for the general good. What I object to is the smelly/stinky argument which has been used a lot on this thread. That is a personal dislike. I also then fail to see how those who want it banned on health grounds then ignore the costs of alcohol in terms of illness, crime and family breakdown. Not really joined up thinking is it.

I don't question the research that has been done into the effects of smoking but I can't help wondering whether there are other factors that come into play. We're living longer so more chance of illness in later life and it does seem that cancer may have come to the fore in the 20th Century as pollution from traffic and industry has risen.

I don't really have the time to look into historical background but what were the cancer rates in the 19th Century. Don't ever remember reading one of those "classic" novels and hearing it mentioned.There was consumption but I think that was TB but maybe it was a catch-all term for any kind of wasting disease.

Anyway I am agreeing with you to a large extent. I wouldn't dream of smoking where it wasn't allowed or where the majority of people objected, and have spent my time at many a party in the garage with fellow pariahs.

To use the "stinky" argument I wouldn't want to go out though where I couldn't smoke as I guess for me it masks the smell of beer or wine on people's breath. Red wine is particularly unpleasant to me as is that stale beer smell in clubs and pubs.

ROD

[Cover-up]

Rod, I was going to sit this argument out. BUT...

Passive smoking WILL increase my chances of getting lung cancer and, frankly, that is unacceptable. I can't believe the law is only just catching up with this. If someone chooses to drink themselves to death, it's not going to give me schlerosis of the liver... I don't wish to sound self-centred, but these are facts.

I can't believe that this board is made up of people who travel hundreds of miles to venues, stay up all night, spend most of their hard-won earnings on records. BUT when it comes to - are you prepared to step outside for five minutes to have a cigarette because it's the law... NO????

Mind you - when I first visited Dublin last year, the farting problem WAS quite apparent...

[Guest Stuart T]

"smokers use pubs more than non smokers"

Not only is it a silly statement, but if it were true....maybe it's because non smokers don't want to be in the smoke?

But as 25% of the population smoke and 50% of Paul's customers are smokers it must mean that smokers are proportionately more likely to go to the pub than non-smokers. I also believe that smokers show a disproportionate likelihood to enjoy darts, eating pork scratchings and telling tall stories after five or six pints.

"freedom of personal choice"

The freedoms still there paultp..it's just outside.

But thats not really fair if it is possible to accomodate smokers in a venue that also offers the choice to customers who want to be in a non-smoking area, at which point the secondary smoking issue beecomes utterly irrelevant. Fair enough to ban smoking at the bar and the like. As usual with banning anything, it has been a blanket ban and fails to accomodate 25% of the population.

On the other hand, I'm sort of looking forward to it, non-smoking pubs massively reduce my intake and banning smoking in the house (we're both smokers but we're abiding by it) will see me down to five or six a day instead of 20. I may as well give up. Maybe I should support the ban after all?

[Guest Stuart T]

I don't question the research that has been done into the effects of smoking but I can't help wondering whether there are other factors that come into play. We're living longer so more chance of illness in later life and it does seem that cancer may have come to the fore in the 20th Century as pollution from traffic and industry has risen.

There was a huge hike in lung cancer rates in the late 30s, early 40s, investigators assessed the reasons and found it was due to the increased popularity and use of tobacco in the period including and following the first world war. They did question whether pollution in the form of smog was a major factor but concluded that it was not. Lung cancer rates historically have reflected smoking rates.

I don't really have the time to look into historical background but what were the cancer rates in the 19th Century. Don't ever remember reading one of those "classic" novels and hearing it mentioned.There was consumption but I think that was TB but maybe it was a catch-all term for any kind of wasting disease.

Anyway I am agreeing with you to a large extent. I wouldn't dream of smoking where it wasn't allowed or where the majority of people objected, and have spent my time at many a party in the garage with fellow pariahs.

TB may cover up cancer incidents, and the shorter life expectancy probably meant that cancer was a less common form of death compared with TB, Cholera, smallpox, meningitis, dysentry, malaria and the like which are now very limited killers in the UK. As mentioned above, there is clear evidence of the increase in lung cancers related to smoking, it just took about 20 years for the net effect to be clearly identifiable.

[Modernsoulsucks]

No argument about the risks from passive smoking other than what is the risk to you if the smokers were in a seperate well ventilated room, or if the odd pub in each area was allowed to remain smoking. When you walk down the street and pass a smoker and catch some of the smoke is that unacceptable. I guess it would be cos there's still some risk there.

I agree you're not going to catch liver disease from a hardened drinker but you may get hit over the head with a brick or mown down by a car by people under the influence.

All Im saying is that if we're clamping down on the effects of smoking then why are you minimising the effects of alcohol. Because it's still socially acceptable?

Im at a loss to understand why Im being unreasonable if I don't fancy travelling to a venue to stand outside, especially with our weather. I have the choice to go outside or just give it a miss and I choose the latter.

ROD

[Guest]

Personally I've always thought we should drive on the other side of the road and the change over should be gradual to make it 'fair'. So half the roads could change one week and half the next.

In all seriousness, to have smokers areas in all venues is surely unworkable.. many many small businesses wouldn't be able to do it on space or cost considerations and and would therefore close down.

The fact is there has been a non smoking policy in offices,workplaces theatres, cinemas, buses, trains, aeroplanes ect for many years and it's entirely reasonable and workable. Personally I for I've got to much pride to be one of those desperate individuals who huddle round in a pathetic liitle group outside office blocks sucking on a cancer stick as if thier lives depended on it. but then I had my first two cigarettes at 14 was as sick as a dog for two days and decided there and then it was a no no for me and I consider myself lucky. Both my parents were smokers, most of my friends smoke and I've never never once complained..but this ban is an essential in my opinon. People will still be able to smoke...outside.

What the smoking ban does is this- it moves the country forward in thinking terms not backwards, something which is unfortunatley happening in so many other parts of the world. It makes us more civilised as a nation, something that needs addressing.

[Modernsoulsucks]

Thank you Stuart for that contribution. Again I wouldn't dispute your facts or figures but as for the effect of "smog" I do wonder if we are told the whole truth about what chemicals we breathe in on an everyday basis. I know the Bhopal pasticide plant accident was an extreme example of leakage into the environment but when you consider what industry is pumping into the atmosphere daily and do we know what the cumulitive effect is.

"What you had was a gas that significantly reduced the body's immune system and laid it open to disease," says Shyam Agrawal, the director of the Navodaya oncology centre in Bhopal, who treated the sick and dying 20 years ago as a medical student. "Within India, Bhopal has one of the highest lung cancer rates in men, while women show very high rates of breast and cervical cancer. The cancer rates are significantly higher in gas-affected populations."

ROD

[Guest Stuart T]

Personally I've always thought we should drive on the other side of the road and the change over should be gradual to make it 'fair'. So half the roads could change one week and half the next.

Ridiculous analogy Simon.

In all seriousness, to have smokers areas in all venues is surely unworkable.. many many small businesses wouldn't be able to do it on space or cost considerations and and would therefore close down.

That assumes that it would be compulsory to accomodate both groups. It doesn't have to be. Theres a non-smoking pub down the road from here at Blackfriars. There could be another one called Fag Ash Lil's round the corner, and a mixed one elsewhere, everyone gets a choice then.

Personally I for I've got to much pride to be one of those desperate individuals who huddle round in a pathetic liitle group outside office blocks sucking on a cancer stick as if thier lives depended on it.

Simon, you're just being a bitchy child now. I'd rather be manfully smoking in a proud and defiant manner outside than sitting inside whining about those nasty smokers.

What the smoking ban does is this- it moves the country forward in thinking terms not backwards, something which is unfortunatley happening in so many other parts of the world. It makes us more civilised as a nation, something that needs addressing.

Jawohl, zere vill be progress at any cost. Dissent vill not be tolerated. You vill obey orders. Personally I think its yet another sign of the dictatorial fascist society that we live in that is determined to crush any individualism, dissent or failure to comply with the government of the day's selected moral perceptions. That isn't civilisation or progress.

How soon until they ban drinking, dangerous sports and thinking politically incorrect thoughts?

[Guest]

I think they are only bothered because they have found a replacement for the tax`s,through turnin`us all into gamblers,and Ebay,oh! and sell a bit more plonk,while taxin` it more.........and subjectin`our poor people,more fukcin`stress.

[Guest Stuart T]

Thank you Stuart for that contribution. Again I wouldn't dispute your facts or figures but as for the effect of "smog" I do wonder if we are told the whole truth about what chemicals we breathe in on an everyday basis. I know the Bhopal pasticide plant accident was an extreme example of leakage into the environment but when you consider what industry is pumping into the atmosphere daily and do we know what the cumulitive effect is.

"What you had was a gas that significantly reduced the body's immune system and laid it open to disease," says Shyam Agrawal, the director of the Navodaya oncology centre in Bhopal, who treated the sick and dying 20 years ago as a medical student. "Within India, Bhopal has one of the highest lung cancer rates in men, while women show very high rates of breast and cervical cancer. The cancer rates are significantly higher in gas-affected populations."

ROD

Well, we know that there are a lot of other pollutants in the air, there was all that lead pre lead free petrol, now we'e told that the benzedrine in the elad free is also bad stuff. I think Bhopal was a very isolated incident. But other isolated incidents like Chernobyl don't give us much cause for cheeriness. Maybe in 20 years time we'll see a massive increase in brain tumours and ear cancer from mobile phones, or discover that MP3 players fry your liver.

[Guest Stuart T]

I think they are only bothered because they have found a replacement for the tax`s,through turnin`us all into gamblers,

Its an interesting point isn't it, just what the hell were the government thinking to license a bucn of casinos to fleece people? May as well stick half a dozen fruit machines in the school canteen and make every post office into a bookies.

[Modernsoulsucks]

Interesting use of the "Allo Allo" German there ,Stuart. I believe Hitler was a staunch anti-smoker. Unfortunately Stalin wasn't so there goes my chance to make the point that smokers are generally more laid back. IMO of course.

"Ernst, zer ist ein Beer Hall down ze strasse in Munich ver ze cigaretten ist nicht verboten und ve muss close it today"

"Vell OK, Adolf. Just az long az you know vat you're getting into"

ROD

Edited January 12, 2007 by modernsoulsucks

[Guest]

Bless you, Stuey. The debate is over I think when you resort to name calling.

[Guest]

Its an interesting point isn't it, just what the hell were the government thinking to license a bucn of casinos to fleece people? May as well stick half a dozen fruit machines in the school canteen and make every post office into a bookies.

Funny thing is,we think everything is going US,they wont allow on line gamblin`,they have arrested "British so called busness men" for doing so,and in the good-ole USA wouldnt stand for camara`s every fukcin`where,what i think are the biggest stress causin`things ever,but we say if youve nowt to hide,i`m not bothered........well who`s gonna`say any diffrant,there is a prison call wymott,where you must obay the tannoy.........well thats where your countrys going,maybe.........and if you have not noticed,most city pups are camara`d up,so you`ll be sat there mindin`your own,someone sparks up,two minutes later,full on raid.......everybody knows if one person kikcs off in the pup,there`ll be twenty cop cars,two vans,dogs,swat team,etc,what a wast of money.Infact save money ban pubs.

[Guest Stuart T]

Interesting use of the "Ello Ello" German there ,Stuart. I believe Hitler was a staunch anti-smoker. Unfortunately Stalin wasn't so there goes my chance to make the point that smokers are generally more laid back. IMO of course.

ROD

Yes, a non smoking teetotal vegetarian artist. He raised the age at which you could buy tobacco to 25 and banned smoking in enclosed public places and restaurants. Stalin smoked like a chimney and drank like a fish. I imagine that he was even worse at painting than Adolf.

[Guest Stuart T]

Bless you, Stuey. The debate is over I think when you resort to name calling.

You'll notice that I didn't say "Simon, you actually are a bitchy child".

[Guest Stuart T]

.Infact save money ban pubs.

They may be watching and looking for new ideas.

[Guest]

You'll notice that I didn't say "Simon, you actually are a bitchy child".

"Simon, you're just being a bitchy child now"

Bless.

And you're being a........

Notice I didn't say "Stuart you are actually a....."

Edited January 12, 2007 by Simon White

[Guest Stuart T]

"Simon, you're just being a bitchy child now"

Bless.

And you're being a........

Notice I didn't say "Stuart you are actually a....."

Got on your tits have I?

[Guest]

Who me dear? No dear.

[Modernsoulsucks]

Simon, what about those desperate individuals I've noticed at certain clubs who huddle in pathetic groups around a 1980's 12".

Is there any hope for these people or should we just shun them?

ROD

[Guest Stuart T]

Simon, what about those desperate individuals I've noticed at certain clubs who huddle in pathetic groups around a 1980's 12".

Is there any hope for these people or should we just shun them?

ROD

Best thing to do is to keep your distance, some of them might be on roller skates.

[Guest]

Simon, what about those desperate individuals I've noticed at certain clubs who huddle in pathetic groups around a 1980's 12".

Is there any hope for these people or should we just shun them?

ROD

Unfortunately Rod, theres no hope for them at all.

I should just say I was using the word 'pathetic' in it's original form and it was in no way intended to be detrimental but in fact, sympathetic.

As an aside you really should experience being in a restaraunt with Ian Levine when someone is smoking...it's so over the top you wouldn't belive it lots of VERY LOUD shouting 'UUURGGHH URRGHH' and flapping and waving of arms.

Personally I dont really care that much about smoking, but if most ofthe arguements against the ban given here had any reason or sense in the arguement I'd agree...for instance I agree that 'all smoking' pubs should be allowed...why not have them for those who want to smoke? But I hate the hypocritacal bullshit that tries to make out its about personal liberty because it usually comes from people whos only concern for any 'personal liberty' is their own!

[Guest Stuart T]

As an aside you really should experience being in a restaraunt with Ian Levine when someone is smoking...it's so over the top you wouldn't belive it lots of VERY LOUD shouting 'UUURGGHH URRGHH' and flapping and waving of arms.

Just let me know where and when

[Guest]

But I hate the hypocritacal bullshit that tries to make out its about personal liberty because it usually comes from people whos only concern for any 'personal liberty' is their own!

And have a second house in France

[Guest Stuart T]

And have a second house in France

The politics of envy.

[Guest DonnaD]

Simon, what about those desperate individuals I've noticed at certain clubs who huddle in pathetic groups around a 1980's 12".

Is there any hope for these people or should we just shun them?

ROD

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