Hey all,

picked up a demo copy of this recently and it seems to play a previously unknown take of the a side. It features a totally new intro and synth bits over the choruses and a synth solo during a breakdown - one which doesnt feature on the known version.

The only way to tell the difference (other than playing it) is by the deadwax; A side is - irda - 356a - re2

So there's a few things Id like to know -

 

has anyone encountered one of these before?

is this possibly a test press before they decided to go for a stripped down version? if so, is this copy the only one or could there be more?

and does anyone have the story behind this track and the band? I know it was pressed by numero in that omnibus and they usually have great info on artists etc. can anyone share anything? 

 

thanks!

 

ps there's a clip of it on rare soul talk on fb, not sure how to upload it here

 

 

 

 

Don't know the record but from what I can see, there's the 1976 'local' release (yellow stocker) and then there's the 1976 'IRDA' (white promo only maybe that was also re-isued as in 2012 by Numero Group) pick up release for national distribution. That would have had a re-mixed/worked version maybe...

Yeah Im aware of all the pressings out there. The numero reissue of the demo plays the same a side as the original demo and the yellow issue.

I have a white demo that is identical to the other white demos aside from the deadwax and the song itself. the deadwax info also stands up as having a different number for the record - the known a side is 354A (and the b side 356B) whereas my copy is 356A and 356B. So it stands to reason that each cut was issued a different cat no. maybe. Im interested if anyone knows how the system worked back then; was it common to cut a very small run onto vinyl and then decide to press it again with a different cut because the first one was deemed unfavourable? 

 

I kind of assumed that would happen with test presses and acetates, not labelled up demos...

Well not to say that it was a common practice, but yes, there's some records both on major labels or on smaller independent labels that have such take/mix variations that one can only tell appart by the eye via the 'run-out' matrix. 

It's more common where different pressing plants are involved for a 'same' record but then the label variations there should tell them appart. A test press or pre-release is either a 'generic' label to be filled in or a blank label. That's not your case is it ?

No it's not, and I echo your statements! These were all pressed at the same place so it certainly is odd. It's reminding me of the recent Impressions - love me alternate take that's surfaced; i think im piggybacking off of the logic behind that one. but that was a pretty big release, and this one is relatively obscure.

anyone out there got the omnibus boxset and can post up the info behind this release? I know it wont reference this version but would be nice to find out more about the track and artist. cheers!

😉

 

The Impressions 'love me' alternate take (promotional) release for example is also anther pressing plant and just by the label can be tell appart. Not only for the 'star' - plug in - side and the timing at 3:00 instead of 2:55 for the other pressing plants and the 'regular' Leroy Hutson lead take.

Good luck with your quest finding somebody who might give you more insight on that matter for your Sky's the limit. Neve never tried but what about contacting some people at Numero Group maybe...

 

Edited January 6, 20205 yr by Tlscapital

3 minutes ago, Scootboy said:

😉

 

Scans maybe ? Sorry the photos of the text is rather hard to read.

Edited January 6, 20205 yr by Tlscapital

You can enlrarge it, the resolution is quite high 😉

4 minutes ago, Scootboy said:

😉

 

YOU ARE SUPERB!

 

thank you so much, that info is fantastic.

 

I was thinking about reaching out to Numero, they in turn could put me in touch with any surviving artists to find out more. 

Interesting that the yellow issue seems the first press according to this, with the white "promo" coming in a close second; if im reading that correctly?

Yes, the Yellow as I said is the first local release and then it got picked up by IRDA for national release which seemingly didn't get press beyond the promotional stage and with what seems now to be issued twice with different mixes/takes.

1 minute ago, Tlscapital said:

Yes, the Yellow as I said is the first local release and then it got picked up by IRDA for national release which seemingly didn't get press beyond the promotional stage and with what seems now to be issued twice with different mixes/takes.

Yep that sounds about right - sorry my assumption around demo/promo first issue second blinded me to the obvious there! 

So maybe when it was picked up by IRDA for national release they tried out a different take and then decided against it; either before they pressed it up, or maybe even when they were thinking about pressing national issues (as it clearly hadnt done as well as they hoped maybe? my version is definitely a bit more exciting i guess, not as stripped back). 

 

Ill see if i can get in touch with someone involved in it to get confirmation. 

 

thanks all!

Hi Olliewtf, did you ever get any closure on this?  I picked up this 45 today at a record show in Chicago with the same deadwax markings:

A-side (inscribed): IRDA-356-A-RE-2
B-side (inscribed): IRDA-356-B RFS/MC

I was initially worried because the deadwax markings don't match any of the official versions notated on discogs.  I was thinking it might be the Numero reissue, but I think those have another set of deadwax markings that include "NUM".  

The seller also said that the record came from a family in Gary with nothing but 60s-80s 45s in the box and other 70s Gary 45s like Staff label stuff.  So, seemed like a legit origin story for the record.  It also just looks like a 70s press and shows some age/browing a bit.  

Discogs has 2 different 70s IRDA white label versions, but neither of them have the deadwax markings I listed above.  Discogs has these:

Version 1:

Matrix / Runout (Engraved [Side A]): NR 7730-1-IRDA-354-A 2E

Matrix / Runout (Engraved [Side B]): NR 7730-2 IRDA-356-B 2E

Version 2:

Matrix / Runout (Runout Side A ): NR 7730-1 IRDA-356-A 2E

Matrix / Runout (Runout Side B): NR 7730-2 IRDA-356-B 2E

For the version 2 entry, I wasn't sure if anybody had a record with those actual deadwax markings or if it was just a misinterpretation of somebodys comments in the notes that stated:  "It has the same labels as Sky's The Limit (3) - Don't Be Afraid but has "IRDA-356-A" engraved in the runouts."  I could see that someone might take that comment, look at the Version 1 deadwax entries and think that the Version 2 was the same deadwax just changing IDRA-354-A to IRDA-356-A and keeping the rest.  

Hopefully I can sort all this out.  It looks like there's either three versions of the IRDA promo press or the deadwax marking are notated incorrectly for Version 2 on discogs.

On 15/11/2021 at 00:13, Sharlow45 said:

For the version 2 entry, I wasn't sure if anybody had a record with those actual deadwax markings or if it was just a misinterpretation of somebodys comments in the notes that stated:  "It has the same labels as Sky's The Limit (3) - Don't Be Afraid but has "IRDA-356-A" engraved in the runouts."  I could see that someone might take that comment, look at the Version 1 deadwax entries and think that the Version 2 was the same deadwax just changing IDRA-354-A to IRDA-356-A and keeping the rest.  

I think it's the same version. The loop on the "6" continues down past the stem and looks like a 4 at a certain light and angle.

Occam's razor?

 

That does offer up a nice simple explanation!  

Does anybody reading this with a copy of the 2nd version of this record (the one with more keyboard on the A-side) have deadwax markings reading:

A-side (inscribed): NR 7730-1 IRDA-356-A 2E
B-side (incribed):  NR 7730-2 IRDA-356-B 2E

Or do they read:

A-side (inscribed): IRDA-356-A-RE-2
B-side (inscribed): IRDA-356-B RFS/MC

This latter is what Olliewtf's and my copy read.  If enough people have the latter and none the former, I think we could close the case.  

I have the version with "NR 7730-1 IRDA-356-A 2E" in the dead wax.

 

Hi Docfish, OK great thanks, and you're sure it's a "6" and  not a "4" per Muscle Shoals" description?  Do you know what version it plays?  I have attached an .mp3 of my version with this deadwa:

A-side (inscribed): IRDA-356-A-RE-2
B-side (inscribed): IRDA-356-B RFS/MC

Is yours the same or different?

What do you mean by 356 version? Catalogue number is 356 and 356 is included on both sides of the dead wax. Mine is a different version then yours.

 

 

1 hour ago, Docfish said:

What do you mean by 356 version? Catalogue number is 356 and 356 is included on both sides of the dead wax. Mine is a different version then yours.

 

OK thanks Docfish, that matches what is considered the "original" or first version, the same version the yellow label og press plays and that the Numero reissue plays.  So we can confidently say that the your version, which reads

A-side (inscribed): NR 7730-1 IRDA-356-A 2E
B-side (inscribed):  NR 7730-2 IRDA-356-B 2E

Plays the original version.  The question I was trying to ask that may have confused you was just whether you were completely sure that the runout for the A-side has "356" in it and not "354" since Muscle Shoals was saying that on his copy it was hard to tell if it was a "6" or a "4".  

If you're sure your runout has "356", then I just need to find someone with the version that reads:

A-side (inscribed): NR 7730-1 IRDA-354-A 2E
B-side (inscribed):  NR 7730-2 IRDA-356-B 2E

To see what version this plays.  Does anybody have this version that they could compare to these two sound files above?

Hi Sharlow, it's indeed hard to say if this a "4" or a "6", but in the end rather clearly a "6".

Are you sure your version is an original? It sounds a bit like an edit, with elements of "part 2" added to the mix, the drums sound a bit like a modern day producer had it's hands on them. Also the whole mix sounds slightly "modern", not muffled like the original mix. Did you realize, that the issue has different production credits then the demos? On the demos it's Robert Lee, the same person as General Lee, who recorded three rare 45s on Lost Weekend and might be better know on this forum for his Steeltown recording as Robert Lee & The Exquistes. The issues have another producer credited

 

 

Hi Docfish, My version isn't the original version, but I can confidently say at this point that it was a 2nd version made around the same time.  The runout matrix includes "RFS/MC", which means it was mastered by Robert F. Sowell at Master Control mastering studio in Nashville.  Looking at discogs, you only find original pressing Sowell mastered records from 1970-1979, and so I think the mastering of my version could only be in that time frame.  It makes sense that IRDA would have used Master Control since they were both in Nashville.  It's good that clue was there, or I really wouldn't be sure.  My copy came from a family in Gary, Indiana where the group was from with a bunch of 60s-80s 45s, and it looks and feels like a 70s pressing so that would be all I have to go on if it weren't for the "RFS/MC" lead.    

All the copies have Robert Lee's name on them somewhere.  The yellow label original has his name on the writing credits.  The Numero bio of the band that was posted above in the thread talks about the history of the yellow label original and how the record was picked up for national distribution by Nashville's IRDA and pressed on the white label.  So, we can be confident that the yellow was the true original.

And yeah, I'm a big fan of Robert Lee.  I own his entire discography except for the other version of this record.  I've talked to his brother Junei and his old roomate and bassist Frank Russell, but he personally, though still alive, does not want to be found.  

Hi Sharlow, nice to put the pieces together. Your version is definitely the DJ-friendly version with a much better sound. I would be curious to hear the flipside of yours. As the flips is, let's say, pretty much out of this world. If you ever find a spare of "Pleasure" by the General please drop me a line. Is Robert Lee's brother Junei the same guy who had an 80's 45 on Pharaohs Records?

15 minutes ago, Docfish said:

Hi Sharlow, nice to put the pieces together. Your version is definitely the DJ-friendly version with a much better sound. I would be curious to hear the flipside of yours. As the flips is, let's say, pretty much out of this world. If you ever find a spare of "Pleasure" by the General please drop me a line. Is Robert Lee's brother Junei the same guy who had an 80's 45 on Pharaohs Records?

Here's the flip side.  If you upload yours we can compare that too.  People always said the Side B's of the different versions were the same, but we can check.  And yeah, same Junei on Pharaohs.  He's got a facebook page, Willie Junei Lee Jr., you can check out. 

That's the side I prefer, the b side.. great track, love to hear if this 'other' version is different again on the b.

Edited November 24, 20213 yr by Mal C

Here is the flipside of my copy:

Edited November 24, 20213 yr by Docfish

So would be interesting to hear other people's opinions, but to me it sounds like the exact same take just mastered a little bit different between the two.  And it could be our record needles just having a different frequency response causing some of that difference, hard to say, but sounds like a bigger difference than I would expect purely from a different cartridge.  On the 2nd version, the drums just sound a lot cleaner and I hear reverb on them.  I don't hear much reverb at all on the drums in the first version, and they generally sound more muffled.  What do you guys hear?  Thanks for putting these up.

And still looking for anybody who has the version with "354" in the deadwax to put up a clip so we can compare that one as well.

Sharlow45

I sold you the Sky's The Limit 45 at the Hillside record show in Chicago back in November. I hope this thread has put your fears to rest that it was a reissue or something other than an original pressing. As you stated, and as I told you, that copy came from a family from Gary who set up at a record show near me who were complete amateurs and appeared to be selling off a collection they had inherited. The box that contained the Sky's The Limit also had numerous local Gary gospel 45's, including some on Bud Pressner's "Staff" label. I have owned the yellow label pressing and upon playing the copy I sold you I noticed that it was different from how I remembered it from that yellow pressing. It was one of the reasons I chose not to keep it as I preferred the earlier version.

Take care and perhaps I will see you at one of the upcoming Chicago area record shows.

Kipco

Hey Kip,

Yeah I feel like I was able to sort most of the different pressings out.  There's still some remaining questions as to whether the "354" deadwax version really exists or if it is just a different interpretation of "356" due to legibility.  If anybody has the "354" version and could post a picture of the deadwax here that would be great.  Also looking for the runout matrix for the Numero reissue if anybody has that handy.  All I know is that it contains NUM045, but I don't have  the whole sequence.   

Kip, I added the version I bought from you to discogs here:

https://www.discogs.com/release/21426853-Skys-The-Limit-Dont-Be-Afraid

And also made updates where appropriate to the other versions.  Here is a link to the master release that links to all 5 versions

https://www.discogs.com/master/1312317-Skys-The-Limit-Dont-Be-Afraid

If anybody sees anything wrong with these entries, let me know.

Kip, If you ever want to sell that Galabooches, let me know!  I don't have a ton of garage, but maybe I could find something to trade.

Edited December 23, 20213 yr by Sharlow45