Mike Posted November 24, 2019 Posted November 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Timillustrator said: So which copy was this then? https://www.candgnews.com/news/record-store-sells-rare-vinyl-to-third-man-records-founder-jack-white-107476 story here... 1 1
Guest Shufflin Posted November 24, 2019 Posted November 24, 2019 test presses are usually about 5 copies? I find it hard to believe there aren't more "somewhere", as for the record store that had it, where did that copy come from? don't US stores buy in bulk? and who's to say the others (if there are any) aren't part of a bulk buy in another record shop
Robbk Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 1 hour ago, Shufflin said: test presses are usually about 5 copies? I find it hard to believe there aren't more "somewhere", as for the record store that had it, where did that copy come from? don't US stores buy in bulk? and who's to say the others (if there are any) aren't part of a bulk buy in another record shop The copy the record store had - was it a DJ copy or a store stocker? I haven't heard of anyone coming up with a store stocker since ours was stolen, or Tom sold off. 6 Test pressings were always made for a test for an ordered commercial press run at the Detroit pressing plant where Ron Murphy found the 2 DJ copies. He had his own labels, and was a veteran of using that plant. Furthermore, he said a long-time worker at the plant told him that the plant always kept 2 of the test copies in case of future orders, and the other 4 went to the record company. I was told by Mickey Stevenson (and others inside Motown)that the 4 Motown copies were distributed as follows: 2 copies were kept by Berry Gordy, personally, one copy each went to The Motown Record Corp. Record File, and The Jobete Music Co. Record File, and Quality Control got one or two. If the latter only got one, I can't remember who got the other, but I was told that Motown got all 4 of the pressings that didn't stay in the pressing plant. We had an almost mint copy in our office record collection record wall for 6 years before Simon Soussan got it. That copy could well be the one that Kenny Burrell, but I would swear that our copy was a full colour store stocker, especially because I was totally shocked to see The DJ issue (which I had never seen before). I only remembered ever having seen the store stocker.
Chalky Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 (edited) Never seen a stocker. Tom Brown has the one Simon Soussan got from Tom, it’s a demo. The one Ron Murphy got from the plant worker is the one that went to Kenny Burrell and the one in the manship video. They are the only two in the wild that are known about plus the test press. There is an interview with the ARP manager somewhere detailing what happening to the 6 copies. One to Motown files, one to Jobete and one for ARP files. The rest were supposedly destroyed. Edited November 25, 2019 by Chalky 1
Chalky Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 8 hours ago, Timillustrator said: So which copy was this then? https://www.candgnews.com/news/record-store-sells-rare-vinyl-to-third-man-records-founder-jack-white-107476 It is the test pressing from the mid west/Memphis that was found a couple of years ago. There was plenty of talk about it at the time, here and everywhere else.
Chalky Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 6 hours ago, Shufflin said: test presses are usually about 5 copies? I find it hard to believe there aren't more "somewhere", as for the record store that had it, where did that copy come from? don't US stores buy in bulk? and who's to say the others (if there are any) aren't part of a bulk buy in another record shop Test presses you do what the company request but as you say usually 5 or 6. In this case test presses wouldn’t be needed for company evaluation as they were done by ARP. The mid west one would probably be done solely for quality control at the plant so could well be just the one. There could however be others but unless one turns up we will never know.
Robbk Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 3 hours ago, Chalky said: Never seen a stocker. Tom Brown has the one Simon Soussan got from Tom, it’s a demo. The one Ron Murphy got from the plant worker is the one that went to Kenny Burrell and the one in the manship video. They are the only two in the wild that are known about plus the test press. There is an interview with the ARP manager somewhere detailing what happening to the 6 copies. One to Motown files, one to Jobete and one for ARP files. The rest were supposedly destroyed. 3 hours ago, Chalky said: Never seen a stocker. Tom Brown has the one Simon Soussan got from Tom, it’s a demo. The one Ron Murphy got from the plant worker is the one that went to Kenny Burrell and the one in the manship video. They are the only two in the wild that are known about plus the test press. There is an interview with the ARP manager somewhere detailing what happening to the 6 copies. One to Motown files, one to Jobete and one for ARP files. The rest were supposedly destroyed. I, myself, saw the two that were in the two files Motown Record Files. One of those 2 was the one we had at Airwave, because the two file copies were already missing when we had ours. I was told, in house, inside Motown, that Berry got one or 2 of them, and that Quality Control got one they kept in the firm NOT that THEIR copy was kept at ARP. I think that was Mickey who told me that. Ron told me that's what the ARP man who let him have it told him. I myself saw 3 copies, the 2 file copies, and Ron's copy. I believe that Quality Control had one in house, in case the ARP copy would go missing. I was told by several different people that Berry received, and kept for himself, at least one copy of every release. Did he stop keeping them sometime back?
Chalky Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 This is what Ron Murphy wrote about Frank Wilson.... Here's the story on Soul 35019 by Frank Wilson The prime pressing plant for Motown was American Record Pressing (ARP) located in Owosso.Michigan now this plant was destroyed by a fire in 1971 but later in the early 80's I contacted some of the former employee's to see if they still had saved any of the records pressed there. Well I got lucky and found a few thousand records pressed at ARP starting from 1952 when the plant started right up to 1971, I visted and purchased records from about 25 former workers, one day I received a call from a former manager saying he had about 300 records to sell and this guy ended up having the best Motown items. Included in those boxes were the Frank Wilson (Soul 35019) and a test pressing of VIP 25034 a "MISSING" number which was the Chris Clark version of the same Frank Wilson song which had Clark overdubbing her lead vocal over Wilson's track. Now here is exactly what he told me when I asked him how he had all these mint records including the Frank Wilson on Soul, he said: "we would press 6 copies and send 3 to Motown for approval and keep the other 3 copies on file" then he said one day"the owner told him to get rid of all the older records on file because they were taking up a lot of space BUT instead of throwing away all 3 copies he saved ONE copy of each and took those home, and that's what I got. The other known copy in the UK was originally stolen by a Motown employee and then sold to that collector by Simon Soussan. So IF the former ARP manager that I got my copy from was correct and the other 2 copies the plant had were destroyed then besides the one copy stolen from Motown's files that would leave only 2 possible other copies to exist. My copy of Soul 35019 was near mint when I sold my entire Motown collection to Martin Koppel in 1994 at that time I placed a value of $4000. on that record based on offers I had for it up to that time. Martin Koppel had told me he would sell most of the collection by piece meal but since he loved northern soul he would keep the Frank Wilson in his collection BUt as it turned out someone else made him an offer he couldn't refuse.
Chalky Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 34 minutes ago, Robbk said: I, myself, saw the two that were in the two files Motown Record Files. One of those 2 was the one we had at Airwave, because the two file copies were already missing when we had ours. I was told, in house, inside Motown, that Berry got one or 2 of them, and that Quality Control got one they kept in the firm NOT that THEIR copy was kept at ARP. I think that was Mickey who told me that. Ron told me that's what the ARP man who let him have it told him. I myself saw 3 copies, the 2 file copies, and Ron's copy. I believe that Quality Control had one in house, in case the ARP copy would go missing. I was told by several different people that Berry received, and kept for himself, at least one copy of every release. Did he stop keeping them sometime back? Did Berry get a copy. Owning the company he may have thought a company file copy was enough and it was his? It was rumoured Berry bought Reg Bartlett’s collection which was allegedly the most comprehensive collection of Motown. Its one of the hardest labels to collect because of all the various takes and mixes, represees etc, many only distinguishable by the matrix details in the run out.
Chalky Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 (edited) So going by what the plant manager says, Motown still have two file copies and just two copies at ARP are unaccounted for, presumed destroyed. Edited November 25, 2019 by Chalky
Speedlimit Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 So imagine this someone turns up the original studio acetate. How much would that fetch
Chalky Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 (edited) 58 minutes ago, Speedlimit said: So imagine this someone turns up the original studio acetate. How much would that fetch The UK acetates are about somehwere. If you are talking about a US Jobete acetate its all guess work. No one said the test press would fetch what it did but if you have enough money and you are a fool then that money is easily parted. Edited November 25, 2019 by Chalky 1
Robbk Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Chalky said: So going by what the plant manager says, Motown still have two file copies and just two copies at ARP are unaccounted for, presumed destroyed. The copy Soussan got from us was one of the 2 file copies. It was either the Motown File Copy, or The Jobete file copy, as far as I remember, they were BOTH missing before Tom first showed me "Our copy". I'd bet the farm ours was one of those 2. Also, we got The Andantes, and several other very rare ones, Tom said he found them in a box that someone was going to throw away, and "someone said he could take them." Several of the file copies had gone "missing" (many of the rarest Motown 45s). That happened in 1976 or 1977. Edited November 25, 2019 by Robbk 1
Chalky Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 1 minute ago, Robbk said: The copy Soussan got from us was one of the 2 file copies. It was either the Motown File Copy, or The Jobete file copy, as far as I remember. Several of the file copies had gone "missing" (many of the rarest Motown 45s). Yes we know, he nicked it off Tom’s desk allegedly. But if you read what the manager of ARP says then Motown still have two more copies. The other copy we know of came via the ARP manager to Ron to Martin to Kenny via Tim Brown.
Dobber Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 a chap that i know and and a few others on here also know him, purchased a load of jobete acetates from pete lowry in the late 80's early nineties? reportedly in that bunch was a 10 inch acetate of frank wilson,the acetate had the instrumental and 3 mixes of the tune,it also came with the sheet music and notes? he was invited onto the richard searling show to play the acetates,i didnt listen to the show so i dont know if the frank wilson was played! i purchased a few acetates from him in the mid nineties that were defo originals...patrice holloway for the love of mike,brenda holloway lonely boy,and a jimmy ruffin and something else i cant quite remember! if it does exist,then that is a serious item!
Robbk Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, Chalky said: Yes we know, he nicked it off Tom’s desk allegedly. But if you read what the manager of ARP says then Motown still have two more copies. The other copy we know of came via the ARP manager to Ron to Martin to Kenny via Tim Brown. Maybe Berry replaced the missing one Tom got with his own? 1
Peter Richer Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 (edited) Hang on. People seem to be missing the real point here. The Tim Brown copy, plus the ex-Ron Murphy then Kenny Burrell then Hull/Scunthorpe copiy (keep up now, that's two copies in total) have been well documented for many years. They are both demos with the same labels and same ARP matrix markings. In other words, they came from the same batch - of six, if the testimonies are correct. However, the test press (that is, the third known copy) which Jack White bought a couple of years ago is completely different. It was pressed at a totally different plant, and has different (non-ARP) matrix markings. That means - and this is the big point - that the Frank Wilson was pressed up separately at two different plants, for whatever reason, and there is no knowing at all how many of the test press were actually produced. Or why? That is the question. Why was it pressed in two different plants (for a 'sample' demo)? How many were pressed? And, even, are there any issues? Edited November 25, 2019 by Peter Richer Readability
Chalky Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 12 minutes ago, Peter Richer said: Hang on. People seem to be missing the real point here. The Tim Brown copy, plus the ex-Ron Murphy then Kenny Burrell then Hull/Scunthorpe copiy (keep up now, that's two copies in total) have been well documented for many years. They are both demos with the same labels and same ARP matrix markings. In other words, they came from the same batch - of six, if the testimonies are correct. However, the test press (that is, the third known copy) which Jack White bought a couple of years ago is completely different. It was pressed at a totally different plant, and has different (non-ARP) matrix markings. That means - and this is the big point - that the Frank Wilson was pressed up separately at two different plants, for whatever reason, and there is no knowing at all how many of the test press were actually produced. Or why? That is the question. Why was it pressed in two different plants (for a 'sample' demo)? How many were pressed? And, even, are there any issues? We are keeping up It would be at other plants for distribution purposes probably. Easier and cheaper to press on other regions than to ship. The demos at ARP and the test oress are done for evaluation and usually 5 or 6 for any release. We know there was 6 at ARP and as I said earlier the other plant wouldn’t need as many as the evaluation was already done with the ARP copies. The test press would be to solely for quality purposes. It still bears the RCA matrix if memory serves, topic elsewhere about it from when it was found, not that many seem to take much notice.
Chalky Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 (edited) Deadwax details for the test press out of Memphis A side - SK4M - 4916 1 A Nashville Matrix 5 ZQL 163317 B side - SK4M - 4915 1 A Nashville Matrix 5 ZAQQ 147105 Edited November 25, 2019 by Chalky
Peter Richer Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 4 minutes ago, Chalky said: We are keeping up It would be at other plants for distribution purposes probably. Easier and cheaper to press on other regions than to ship. The demos at ARP and the test oress are done for evaluation and usually 5 or 6 for any release. We know there was 6 at ARP and as I said earlier the other plant wouldn’t need as many as the evaluation was already done with the ARP copies. The test press would be to solely for quality purposes. It still bears the RCA matrix if memory serves, topic elsewhere about it from when it was found, not that many seem to take much notice. Exactly. So why use a separate pressing plant; and presumably two different masters? And then, the question remains, how many test presses (from the RCA plant) were actually produced? Just the one?!
Chalky Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 Just now, Peter Richer said: Exactly. So why use a separate pressing plant; and presumably two different masters? And then, the question remains, how many test presses (from the RCA plant) were actually produced? Just the one?! Because they originally probably had plans to press and distribute so they would use the regional plants, saves the cost of shipping everything from Detroit. You never know we might see a monarch one for the West Coast one day As for how many, no one knows, just one as surfaced. But like I said Motown did the evaluation and quality checks with those from ARP. So the other plants wouldn't need to repeat all the processes just do a test press to check the quality of the press, so maybe just the one. Wasn't from RCA plant if memory serves, could've been Southern Plastics. RCA did the mastering etc. Just checked, the 5 in the matrix is for Southern Plastic Co. (SO).
Peter Richer Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, Chalky said: Because they originally probably had plans to press and distribute so they would use the regional plants, saves the cost of shipping everything from Detroit. You never know we might see a monarch one for the West Coast one day As for how many, no one knows, just one as surfaced. But like I said Motown did the evaluation and quality checks with those from ARP. So the other plants wouldn't need to repeat all the processes just do a test press to check the quality of the press, so maybe just the one. Wasn't from RCA plant if memory serves, could've been Southern Plastics. RCA did the mastering etc. Just checked, the 5 in the matrix is for Southern Plastic Co. (SO). OK, that's fine, it doesn't matter which non-ARP plant the test press came from. So, are we saying that Motown would have demos and test presses produced from two or more plants just to check quality control and see if it was potentially worth issuing? Surely just the one would normally have sufficed? Are there any other examples of Motown test presses, for one record, from two or more completely different plants?
Guest Shufflin Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 1 minute ago, Peter Richer said: Are there any other examples of Motown test presses, for one record, from two or more completely different plants? this is the critical question imo
Chalky Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Peter Richer said: OK, that's fine, it doesn't matter which non-ARP plant the test press came from. So, are we saying that Motown would have demos and test presses produced from two or more plants just to check quality control and see if it was potentially worth issuing? Surely just the one would normally have sufficed? Are there any other examples of Motown test presses, for one record, from two or more completely different plants? They would do a test press to test if it plays ok etc Edited November 25, 2019 by Chalky
Chalky Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 12 minutes ago, Shufflin said: this is the critical question imo Why is it? We simply don’t know unless they turn up
Guest Shufflin Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, Chalky said: They would do a test press to test if it plays ok etc they would do 6? it's a matter of standard production / test practice? just doing one test copy sounds unrealistic ?? would like a view on this from Robbk
Peter Richer Posted November 25, 2019 Posted November 25, 2019 8 minutes ago, Chalky said: They would do a test press to test if it plays ok etc Yes, of course; I think we can all understand that. However, I still think it would be interesting to know whether there are any other Motown records where a test press (for quality control) was produced at one plant, and then another quantity (in this case six, albeit demos, also ostensibly for quality control) were produced at a separate plant. Anybody know of any examples?
Robbk Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 I owned a record company. I would want a test pressing from each pressing plant just before they do our press run. I'd want at LEAST 2 copies made, one to stay at the plant, in case it sells well and we'd need to order another press run, and, I'd want a 2nd one for my company, in case the pressing plant's copy gets misplaced. I would guess that any plants other than ARP probably made at least 2 or 3, but possibly 5 or 6, too. If someone put a gun to my head and would shoot if I'd be wrong, I'd guess 3 first, then 2. Motown's policy in late 1965 was to press in Detroit, RCA East(Pennsylvania), and Monarch, in L.A. So, I believe there's a small possibility that one or 2 from Monarch might show up. But, the fact that none have surfaced in all these years means that there's a chance that theybwon't surface, because they may have been destroyed, or are in the hands of a hermit-like collector. It could have been thrown into the trash by his grandson or granddaughter, who have no idea it could be worth anything, and so, wouldn't even try to put it on E-Bay, to find out. I'm sure I've seen test pressings for the same record release from two different plants. But, I can't remember which records they were. Some were hits, and some were uncharted, so I'm sure it was a regular policy. Why didn't we ask all these questions of Motown producers who were around Motown in then mid-late '60s, and were still alive and with their memories intact? If you had all asked these questions in 2001-2007 or so, we could have had Mickey Stevenson, Joe Hunter, Jack Ashford, Clay MacMurray, and others ALL posted on SoulFul Detroit forum. Berry's still got all his marbles. But none of us would bother him with such questions. 1
Chalky Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 Why would you need a test press left at the plant in case of another required run? It plays no part in production, its only for reference, quality etc. As for Motown policy, they wouldn’t require 6 test presses from the other plants in fact it doesn’t appear any from Southern Plastics Found their way to detroit so is it possibly it was solely for plant use?
Blackpoolsoul Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 2 minutes ago, Chalky said: Why would you need a test press left at the plant in case of another required run? It plays no part in production, its only for reference, quality etc. As for Motown policy, they wouldn’t require 6 test presses from the other plants in fact it doesn’t appear any from Southern Plastics Found their way to detroit so is it possibly it was solely for plant use? And this also leads to the question of how many more Motown tracks were pressed in this manner which would possibly help explain ?
Blackpoolsoul Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 A little off thread but you may not have seen this thread with the Aretha test press from the same folks 1
Leicester Boy Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 On 24/11/2019 at 03:57, Joesoap said: IMHO its value relates to its rarity and the fact that it's collectable because it's Motown and because of its legendary status. Quality-wise, come on... it's good but far from the best record ever made, it's far from the best record played on the scene, it's not the best record from Motown and it's probably not even the best record on Soul. No disrespect but if it had got released and flopped and copies were available would it really have this special status? Ironically, converse to its rarity as a withdrawn release it's now the 'go to' for the know-nothing media and any old assorted div that wants to spout off about 'Northern Soul'.. Saturday evening peak time TV for a family audience is nothing to do with the rare soul scene as I remember and treasure it. In fact, wasn't that part of the boring, rotten old world we were trying to escape from? Anyway, these are just my views. Rant over. No offence intended. Personally think its a very good record that unfortunately has become taboo to play at ns events because of its main stream popularity which is a shame. 2
Dylan Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 2 minutes ago, Leicester Boy said: Personally think its a very good record that unfortunately has become taboo to play at ns events because of its main stream popularity which is a shame. Probably a victim of its own success. I can think of far worse records. but only 2 people can really play this at venues seeing as jack white is unlikely to ever DJ at one. 2
Chalky Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 1 hour ago, Blackpoolsoul said: And this also leads to the question of how many more Motown tracks were pressed in this manner which would possibly help explain ? Every nationally distributed release would be pressed at regional plants. I would imagine every plant would test press once a release reached the production stage, after all it would be bad practice to press 1000s and then find a flaw in the press.
Woodbutcher Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 5 minutes ago, Dylan said: but only 2 people can really play this at venues seeing as jack white is unlikely to ever DJ at one. Oh don't you go opening that bloody can of worms yet again .... 1
Dylan Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 18 minutes ago, WoodButcher said: Oh don't you go opening that bloody can of worms yet again .... I know..... sorry 1
Winsford Soul Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 18 minutes ago, WoodButcher said: Oh don't you go opening that bloody can of worms yet again .... Too late . Oops different record 1
Woodbutcher Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 Trust you to go messin' up a good thing ... 1
Robbk Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 2 hours ago, Chalky said: Why would you need a test press left at the plant in case of another required run? It plays no part in production, its only for reference, quality etc. As for Motown policy, they wouldn’t require 6 test presses from the other plants in fact it doesn’t appear any from Southern Plastics Found their way to Detroit so is it possibly it was solely for plant use? I don't know. But that's what Ron told me. He used ARP for pressing some of his own labels. So, he should know. I didn't handle the details of pressing orders with Airwave, so I don't have practical experience and detailed knowledge in that area.
Peter Richer Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 (edited) 17 hours ago, Robbk said: I owned a record company. I would want a test pressing from each pressing plant just before they do our press run. I'd want at LEAST 2 copies made, one to stay at the plant, in case it sells well and we'd need to order another press run, and, I'd want a 2nd one for my company, in case the pressing plant's copy gets misplaced. I would guess that any plants other than ARP probably made at least 2 or 3, but possibly 5 or 6, too. If someone put a gun to my head and would shoot if I'd be wrong, I'd guess 3 first, then 2. Motown's policy in late 1965 was to press in Detroit, RCA East(Pennsylvania), and Monarch, in L.A. So, I believe there's a small possibility that one or 2 from Monarch might show up. But, the fact that none have surfaced in all these years means that there's a chance that theybwon't surface, because they may have been destroyed, or are in the hands of a hermit-like collector. It could have been thrown into the trash by his grandson or granddaughter, who have no idea it could be worth anything, and so, wouldn't even try to put it on E-Bay, to find out. I'm sure I've seen test pressings for the same record release from two different plants. But, I can't remember which records they were. Some were hits, and some were uncharted, so I'm sure it was a regular policy. Why didn't we ask all these questions of Motown producers who were around Motown in then mid-late '60s, and were still alive and with their memories intact? If you had all asked these questions in 2001-2007 or so, we could have had Mickey Stevenson, Joe Hunter, Jack Ashford, Clay MacMurray, and others ALL posted on SoulFul Detroit forum. Berry's still got all his marbles. But none of us would bother him with such questions. Some interesting points/theories there Robb, thank you. So, this would leave open the possibility (not too unrealistic, given the recent find) that another RCA test press or two might surface and, similarly, that one or more Monarch test presses could appear. A definite example (from anybody) of another Motown record where test presses from two different pressing plants have been confirmed would still be very helpful. Anyone? Oh, and I can't speak for others, but I can admit that the reason why I have never asked these questions before is because they never occurred to me, until this new Frank Wilson turned up a couple of years ago with the same 'quality control' writing on the label. Let's hope we get a clearer picture sometime soon! Edited November 26, 2019 by Peter Richer 1
Blackpoolsoul Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 37 minutes ago, Peter Richer said: Some interesting points/theories there Robb, thanks you. So, this would leave open the possibility (not too unrealistic, given the recent find) that another RCA test press or two might surface and, similarly, that one or more Monarch test presses could appear. A definite example (from anybody) of another Motown record where test presses from two different pressing plants have been confirmed would still be very helpful. Anyone? Oh, and I can't speak for others, but I can admit that the reason why I have never asked these questions before is because they never occurred to me, until this new Frank Wilson turned up a couple of years ago with the same 'quality control' writing on the label. Let's hope we get a clearer picture sometime soon! I have searched for similar matrix numbers (supplied by Chalky) and can't find any
Blackpoolsoul Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 1 hour ago, Dylan said: I know..... sorry I had this conversation with Rob Smith, who bought my UK copy as he had melted his copy under a light at a venue !!! and all the Jocks I knew said it was OK to play the UK Copy anyway
Winsford Soul Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 39 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said: I had this conversation with Rob Smith, who bought my UK copy as he had melted his copy under a light at a venue !!! and all the Jocks I knew said it was OK to play the UK Copy anyway It's a genuine British release so why not playing it. If your that way inclined. Plenty of records got UK and US release
Chalky Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 39 minutes ago, Winsford Soul said: It's a genuine British release so why not playing it. If your that way inclined. Plenty of records got UK and US release Think we all know its ok to play, just Dylan being an arse. Its also not needed in the topic either. 2
Chalky Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 1 hour ago, Blackpoolsoul said: I have searched for similar matrix numbers (supplied by Chalky) and can't find any https://www.discogs.com/The-Velvelettes-Needle-In-A-Haystack-Should-I-Tell-Them/release/6013160 there will be many with a RCA matrix. The above has nashville matrix 10, 10 being ARP. There will probably be a midwest and a west coast press too.
Chalky Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Peter Richer said: Some interesting points/theories there Robb, thanks you. So, this would leave open the possibility (not too unrealistic, given the recent find) that another RCA test press or two might surface and, similarly, that one or more Monarch test presses could appear. A definite example (from anybody) of another Motown record where test presses from two different pressing plants have been confirmed would still be very helpful. Anyone? Oh, and I can't speak for others, but I can admit that the reason why I have never asked these questions before is because they never occurred to me, until this new Frank Wilson turned up a couple of years ago with the same 'quality control' writing on the label. Let's hope we get a clearer picture sometime soon! But the Frank Wilson are not RCA presses, they did the mastering. The pressing plants we know are ARP for the demos out of Detroit and Southern Plastics in Memphis. Theoretically there could be more and from other plants too but as Robb said highly unlikely today. Just about every Motown release will have had a test press at every regional plant. ARP it would appear usually had the label as well. The Frank Wilson at Southern Plastics didn’t. A test press is usually exactly the same as the demo or issue but without the label. It will bear the same matrix stamps. Not sure how much clearer you want it. just about any manufacturing process has the first few items checked before the batch is done, in any industry. That is all a test press is, make sure there are no flaws or nothing wrong with the press. Edited November 26, 2019 by Chalky 1
Peter Richer Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Chalky said: But the Frank Wilson are not RCA presses, they did the mastering. The pressing plants we know are ARP for the demos out of Detroit and Southern Plastics in Memphis. Theoretically there could be more and from other plants too but as Robb said highly unlikely today. Just about every Motown release will have had a test press at every regional plant. ARP it would appear usually had the label as well. The Frank Wilson at Southern Plastics didn’t. A test press is usually exactly the same as the demo or issue but without the label. It will bear the same matrix stamps. Not sure how much clearer you want it. Just looking for a another definite confirmed example. As stated. Thought that question was clear. So, just as a for instance, is there perhaps a Motown record we know of with a Monarch test press as well as an ARP test press (with 'quality control' writing would be nice too - as the icing on the cake!)? Edited November 26, 2019 by Peter Richer Punctuation
Blackpoolsoul Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 15 minutes ago, Chalky said: https://www.discogs.com/The-Velvelettes-Needle-In-A-Haystack-Should-I-Tell-Them/release/6013160 there will be many with a RCA matrix. The above has nashville matrix 10, 10 being ARP. There will probably be a midwest and a west coast press too. My bad Chalky, sorry I was using wrong numbers, having a doughnut for lunch to go with my brain
Nick Soule Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 There are definitely test pressings for the same record from different plants. Probably the easiest to find is “Never Can Say Goodbye” by the Jackson 5. The ARP vinyl pressings have a sticker on the label where handwritten info would go. The styrene pressings from Monarch have handwritten info.
Sebastian Posted November 26, 2019 Posted November 26, 2019 Don't know if it's of any help, but here are photos from old ebay auctions of "Quality Control" stamped test pressings of: V.I.P. 25016 - Vows - Tell Me / Buttered Popcorn - 1965/05 MOTOWN 1086 - Tammi Terrell - I Can't Believe You Love Me / Hold Me Oh My Darling - 1965/11 Frank Wilson is from 1965/12. 1
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