The Four Voices

[Guest Andy Kempster]

has it been booted and how do i tell the difference

[Rupert]

has it been booted and how do i tell the difference

yes the second issue is gold first issue green .

[Guest Andy Kempster]

yes the second issue is gold first issue green .

nice one, thanks

[Guest Brian Ellis]

has it been booted and how do i tell the difference

Gold is not a boot - a legitimate reissue as I understand it, hence high(ish) price tag of up to £100 (much more than this when gold label first appeared about 6 years ago). I don't think it likely you'll pick it up at bootleg prices of say £10 or so.

Brian

[Guest Andy Kempster]

Gold is not a boot - a legitimate reissue as I understand it, hence high(ish) price tag of up to £100 (much more than this when gold label first appeared about 6 years ago). I don't think it likely you'll pick it up at bootleg prices of say £10 or so.

Brian

would that be considered a fair price on the legit reissue then?

[Skegsoul]

got mine 4 £75,a while ago now, 2 great sides .

[Rupert]

got mine 4 £75,a while ago now, 2 great sides .

i paid about that as well mick

[Guest Brian Ellis]

would that be considered a fair price on the legit reissue then?

Andy

I guess the going rate is somewhere in the region of £75, but like anything else price can fluctuate +/-, so £100 wouldn't be seen as excessive. If I recall, it was in the region of £250 when it first appeared.

Excellent sound quality on it perhaps helps to confirm that it is not a cheap and cheerful boot.

Brian

[Guest Brian Ellis]

Andy

I guess the going rate is somewhere in the region of £75, but like anything else price can fluctuate +/-, so £100 wouldn't be seen as excessive. If I recall, it was in the region of £250 when it first appeared.

Excellent sound quality on it perhaps helps to confirm that it is not a cheap and cheerful boot.

Brian

There you go Andy 3 independent and agreed valuations all in the space of a couple of minutes (better than David Dickenson could have done). So that's it Four Voices 'Your love is getting stronger' on Gold label - official price £75.

Brian

[Chalky]

There you go Andy 3 independent and agreed valuations all in the space of a couple of minutes (better than David Dickenson could have done). So that's it Four Voices 'Your love is getting stronger' on Gold label - official price £75.

Brian

there was one in a box at nighter other night for £50. Weren't they done by the owner or someone who had access to the original plates or summat and then passed of as originals rather than re-issue, hence the high price?

[Guest Brian Ellis]

there was one in a box at nighter other night for £50. Weren't they done by the owner or someone who had access to the original plates or summat and then passed of as originals rather than re-issue, hence the high price?

Chalky

Yes - it was something about the owner re-issuing from original media, from memory. £50 is a good price for a class record.

Brian

[Soulie78]

I thought the gold ones were done by Popcorn, as he was the producer of the Four Voices.

Martin

[Guest miff]

Got mine off Trevski for 70 quid and its one of the best 45s i brought last year, still cant make my mind up which side I like the best

[Guest miff]

with a lonley heart - the four voices - voice

13063 refosoul

[Guest miff]

your love is getting stronger - the four voices - voice

13064 refosoul

[Cheltsoulnights]

I thought the gold ones were done by Popcorn, as he was the producer of the Four Voices.

Martin

all i know that they where being sold as re-issues for £20 each 6 years ago (from las vegas)

then £40 each about 2 years ago from the same source

would assume they have sold out now

[bri pinch]

STRANGE HOW WHEN THESE TURNED UP ABOUT SIX YEARS AGO, THEY WERE KNOCKED OUT AT 250 QUID WHEN IN REALITY THEY LOOK NOTHING LIKE THE ORIGINAL GREEN LABEL PRESS OTHER THAN THE NASHVILLE MATRIX STAMP.

BEST, BRI.

[bri pinch]

CANT RECALL EVER SEING THEM AS CHEAP AS 20 QUID THO', IF I HAD I'D VE BOUGHT A FEW .

BRI.

[Pete S]

I sold one about 3 weeks back for £50. It has now been bootlegged (or officially reissued) though, Anglo had them on sale at a tenner.

[Maria O]

CANT RECALL EVER SEING THEM AS CHEAP AS 20 QUID THO', IF I HAD I'D VE BOUGHT A FEW .

BRI.

It was 50 dollars for the gold probably 4 or 5 yrs ago. I bought two and I'd happily sell my gold ones for 75 pounds each if anybody wants one, pls PM me (not sure if they are both over here, but have seen one in the boxes).

...I only play my green one anyway

m

Edited January 3, 2007 by Maria O

[Baz Atkinson]

there was one in a box at nighter other night for £50. Weren't they done by the owner or someone who had access to the original plates or summat and then passed of as originals rather than re-issue, hence the high price?

I HEARD THAT ,I KNOW GAZ SIMONS HAS THE PROPER STORY AS HE GOT IT FIRST HAND IN USA I THINK,I HAVE ALSO HEARD THAT POPCORN STORY ALSO.FACT IS IT IS ONE OF THE GREATEST DETROIT CUTS EVER ,SO BLOODY SOULFUL.

BAZ A.

[bri pinch]

when i bought my green one several years ago, the guy had at least another three copies in various conditions. He (mentioning no names) also had original acetates of both sides and also the original metal masters, which he said came straight from popcorn wylie.

bri.

[Sebastian]

would that be considered a fair price on the legit reissue then?

It is never fair to pay a lot of money for a reissue (legal or not). A reissue is apart from its musical merits practically worthless for someone who collects original records. Why not just have the tunes on a CD and be satisfied with that?

[Maria O]

when i bought my green one several years ago, the guy had at least another three copies in various conditions. He (mentioning no names) also had original acetates of both sides and also the original metal masters, which he said came straight from popcorn wylie.

bri.

Rob Thomas got an acetate of the OLIGS side from Popcorn many years ago, although it's owned by someone else now.

m

[Guest]

It is never fair to pay a lot of money for a reissue (legal or not). A reissue is apart from its musical merits practically worthless for someone who collects original records. Why not just have the tunes on a CD and be satisfied with that?

All the UK collectors are scratching their heads? Even our original genuine allowed releases are in fact 2nd issues are they not? So i do not agree with your thinking! Worthless? Supply and demand will decide that! Not you!

[Quinvy]

Got mine off Trevski for 70 quid and its one of the best 45s i brought last year, still cant make my mind up which side I like the best

I've always personally prefered the Chuck Holiday -Just Can't Trust Nobody/I Still Love You - Gloria versions of the same backing tracks. Anybody know which was recorded first? Once I'd heard the Chuch Holiday, the Four Voices just sounded like a very poor alternative.

Chuck Holiday = Fantastic, and very much on my wants list.

Four Voices = Very average, and over rated. I.M.V.H.O.

[okehgaz]

Could be wrong but didn't this track and another by the same group/same label appear on the front page of Soul Bowl list for a short time? If so would have been about £5 or so!

I'm sure i bought both but they moved on a long time ago Both were green label.

[Guest Andy Kempster]

cheers eveybody, quality feedback all round

i now know which route i shall be taking regarding this tune

[Sebastian]

All the UK collectors are scratching their heads? Even our original genuine allowed releases are in fact 2nd issues are they not? So i do not agree with your thinking! Worthless? Supply and demand will decide that! Not you!

Perhaps should've included an "in my opinion" in my previous post.

In my opinion the gold Four Voices 45s shouldn't be considered valuable to someone who collects original 45s because it is NOT the original release.

[Guest in town Mikey]

It is a valid enough point tho Sebastian.

How do you stand on something like Rosco Robinson on Gerri (local release) and Wand (National release).

Both are legit.

[Sebastian]

How do you stand on something like Rosco Robinson on Gerri (local release) and Wand (National release).

Both are legit.

The local release is the most desirable format in my opinion, but in these cases where minor label US releases were picked up by major/bigger labels and released maybe a couple of months after the local release, then I consider both originals. But I think there's a world of difference between the Rosco Robinson example and the Four Voices situation where there is some 25 years between the first and second issues. All in my opinion ofcourse and everyone is entitled to spend their money as they wish etc.

[Modernsoulsucks]

Gotta agree with Sebastian. IMO a ridiculous amount of money for a re-issue. In what way is this re-issue different from those put out by Grapevine or Kent who charge nowhere near that amount.

I'd rather buy original 45s.

I just got Carltons "Ooh Baby" on M- ARGO DJ for under £7 inc postage off Ebay. Nice record and I could get 10 quality 45s for the £75 I'd have to spend for 4 Voices.

I'd love to have the original but will have to wait till I see it at an affordable price to me.

ROD

[Rich Buckley]

The local release is the most desirable format in my opinion, but in these cases where minor label US releases were picked up by major/bigger labels and released maybe a couple of months after the local release, then I consider both originals. But I think there's a world of difference between the Rosco Robinson example and the Four Voices situation where there is some 25 years between the first and second issues. All in my opinion ofcourse and everyone is entitled to spend their money as they wish etc.

You've hit the nail on the head Sebastian. The gold issues were pressed up decades after the originals, purely to satisfy demand from northern collectors, exactly the same as any other re-issue, legit or otherwise. Totally different from local/national releases on different labels at the time when the records originally came out or even on 2 different local labels (e.g Al Willimas). If people are bonkers enough to pay £75 for a re-issue then fine and good luck to you, play it at home and enjoy it, but however you dress them up, they're reissues made purely for UK demand and should not be played out, otherwise there's no difference in anyone buying a bunch of Grapevine/Sevens etc singles and playing them out as originals (unless of course the night is advertised as non-originals/CDs - fair enough if that's made clear). Green copies for soul nights and gold copies for home, end of. For me the whole scene and what attracted me to it (as well as obviously what's in the groove and the people) was about originals and tracking down those elusive original 45s and the buzz you get when you did. Not buying a record especially pressed up for UK demand. I buy CDs for that, but wouldn't dream of playing them out. Without this in my opinion the scene loses its mystique and draw. As Rod says, keep your cash and get some cheapie originals.

Rich

[Dave Pinch]

when they reissued it in 1999 really they should have only been £20 as there were enuff copies to go around

but maybe £50 dosent seem too dear by todays standards. last i heard about the original acetate. Nige

mayfield had it. Dont know if he still has it tho

dave

[Sebastian]

when they reissued it in 1999 really they should have only been £20 as there were enuff copies to go around

but maybe £50 dosent seem too dear by todays standards.

It should only have been £5-£6! If producing a run of 300 (or even less!), 45s costs no more than £2.50 per copy (tops!) to manufacture. That's quite a good profit if selling them for £6. Within no other genre of music does recent reissues (legal or not) cost as much as on the northern soul scene.

[Guest Brian Ellis]

It should only have been £5-£6! If producing a run of 300 (or even less!), 45s costs no more than £2.50 per copy (tops!) to manufacture. That's quite a good profit if selling them for £6. Within no other genre of music does recent reissues (legal or not) cost as much as on the northern soul scene.

Sebastian

But that is the law of supply and demand. At the time no one really knew the full story on this - and hindsight is always 20/20 vision. Even now with more intelligence on the record it is still fetching £50 - £100 - simply because of supply and demand; not based on the cost of making it; and not based on what other people think it's worth. I also think the quality of both sides, in soul terms and in reproduction terms has helped to keep prices quite high.

However, using your analogy above - if you are selling a record that you only paid £2.50 for (but is now worth a grand because of supply and demand) would you be prepared to sell it at 'quite a good profit' for £6? Surely it's the same argument?

Brian

[Rich Buckley]

Sebastian

But that is the law of supply and demand. At the time no one really knew the full story on this - and hindsight is always 20/20 vision. Even now with more intelligence on the record it is still fetching £50 - £100 - simply because of supply and demand; not based on the cost of making it; and not based on what other people think it's worth. I also think the quality of both sides, in soul terms and in reproduction terms has helped to keep prices quite high.

However, using your analogy above - if you are selling a record that you only paid £2.50 for (but is now worth a grand because of supply and demand) would you be prepared to sell it at 'quite a good profit' for £6? Surely it's the same argument?

Brian

No Brian, it's not the same, because the gold one is simply a much later produced replica of the original green copy. The northern scene has always been about original 45s, chasing records. Obviously originals have rocketed in price over the years and they're worth what people pay. Ditto the gold one, but not to play out. It's a re-issue. Are you saying the gold re-issue should be played out when another jock has a green one in his box? If so, we may as well all go to vinyl carvers or grab a load of Sevens...

Rich

[Guest Brian Ellis]

No Brian, it's not the same, because the gold one is simply a much later produced replica of the original green copy. The northern scene has always been about original 45s, chasing records. Obviously originals have rocketed in price over the years and they're worth what people pay. Ditto the gold one, but not to play out. It's a re-issue. Are you saying the gold re-issue should be played out when another jock has a green one in his box? If so, we may as well all go to vinyl carvers or grab a load of Sevens...

Rich

Hi Rich

I'm not sure you've read my post correctly . The essence of it was only about supply and demand and how that dictates price.

There's no need for a mini lecture about what the Northern Soul Scene is all about - I've been part of this scene and collecting thousands of records for the past 38 years and fully understand the nuances between originals, re-issues, boots,vynil carvers, Grapevine, Inferno, Soul Supply, Goldmine Sevens, CDs blah, blah, blah - and the feelings and views of various sections of the scene - collectors versus deejays versus dancers etc, etc. So thanks for your explanation about what the scene is - but definitely NOT required.

Further there was absolutely NOTHING in my post about whether the re-issue should be played out, gold versus green argument - so why do you raise that with me in your response, as if to suggest that I was somehow advocating the playing of one over the other? I did not proffer any form of comment on that, so again, a bit like the mini lecture, absolutely NOT required.

Sorry this is a bit stroppy :angry: , but I do think you should re-read my original post!

Brian

Edited January 4, 2007 by Brian Ellis

[Modernsoulsucks]

I think Bri the correct analogy is that if John Anderson considers his legal re-issues at around £10 to be a fair mark-up when they cost less to make and are also in demand[especially those previously unreleased such as Chesterfields] why is it OK for the Voices 45 to be £75 or whatever.

Why didn't John put out that Chesterfields on blue Parkway and charge £100. Because either it's a brilliant marketing ploy that never occured to him or more likely he like most of us assumes that a re-issue is only worth so much.

The Voices 45 IMO was the former. Judging from Ebay etc the price is all over the place and why would anyone auction a 45 they'd pressed in quantity other than to maximise profit for the seller and OK the person who I assumed gave him the masters. I wonder if any of the group have seen any money. Probably they were paid on the day of the session.

https://www.popsike.com/php/quicksearch.php...p;x=19&y=12

The question about whether it should be played out on that format is a bit of a red herring. Personally I'd rather hear 4 Voices on a boot than N.F. Porter on ABC WDJ with alternative intro and spoken introduction by Winston Churchill. Someone said ""It's what's in the grooves...." which is the music.

So I don't care if people want to have and play the 45 on the re-issue but I do feel that they've been taken advantage of.

ROD

Edited January 4, 2007 by modernsoulsucks

[Guest Andy Kempster]

has it been booted and how do i tell the difference

so ultimately what we are saying is that the green is the original and only one which should be played out, the gold is an official, re-issue and is overpriced for what it is and should be played out at your peril and there is also a boot which has come out recently which goes for about a tenner and is for home use only...

[Russoul1]

so ultimately what we are saying is that the green is the original and only one which should be played out, the gold is an official, re-issue and is overpriced for what it is and should be played out at your peril and there is also a boot which has come out recently which goes for about a tenner and is for home use only...

hiya andy, happy new year to you mate. i like your summing up of this thread

i brought the legal reissue of graham a few years ago for £35 i think. still got it, and every so often

give it a spin, this reissue does come up for grabs quite often approx around £50 dependent on

condition, a top notch 45 hard to find on a original green issue, hence price tag of the reissue.

see you soon mate, whens your first hitchin do?

russ

[Rich Buckley]

Hi Rich

I'm not sure you've read my post correctly . The essence of it was only about supply and demand and how that dictates price.

There's no need for a mini lecture about what the Northern Soul Scene is all about - I've been part of this scene and collecting thousands of records for the past 38 years and fully understand the nuances between originals, re-issues, boots,vynil carvers, Grapevine, Inferno, Soul Supply, Goldmine Sevens, CDs blah, blah, blah - and the feelings and views of various sections of the scene - collectors versus deejays versus dancers etc, etc. So thanks for your explanation about what the scene is - but definitely NOT required.

Further there was absolutely NOTHING in my post about whether the re-issue should be played out, gold versus green argument - so why do you raise that with me in your response, as if to suggest that I was somehow advocating the playing of one over the other? I did not proffer any form of comment on that, so again, a bit like the mini lecture, absolutely NOT required.

Sorry this is a bit stroppy :angry: , but I do think you should re-read my original post!

Brian

Sorry Brian, no offence intended. That's why I said "ditto the gold one" about the price that people pay, as you say it's a supply and demand thing, but as Rod and others say, I'm baffled as to why people would pay such money for what is a re-issue in the same mould as all the Grapevine re-issues etc. In my opinion they're being ripped off when it's changing hands for that sort of cash. Maybe I read the thread wrongly re it appearing to suggest that it's fine to play these out (why else would someone pay £100 for a reissue??). Certainly wasn't trying to give you or anyone else a lecture, I'm not like that. Sorry if it came across like that or I mis-read.

Rich

Edited January 4, 2007 by Rich Buckley

[Guest Andy Kempster]

hiya andy, happy new year to you mate. i like your summing up of this thread

i brought the legal reissue of graham a few years ago for £35 i think. still got it, and every so often

give it a spin, this reissue does come up for grabs quite often approx around £50 dependent on

condition, a top notch 45 hard to find on a original green issue, hence price tag of the reissue.

see you soon mate, whens your first hitchin do?

russ

hello mate, hope you're well

read your thread on the lel niter, seems like it was a success, first hitchin do (hopefully, if i can pin the owner of the club down long enough to confirm the dates) will be early feb

i'll give you a shout nearer the time re: djing spots and things

[Ady Potts]

I may be missing something here, but how do we know that the gold label ones with the Nashville Matrix in the run outs are legit? I've not heard anything definite to say they are. Why can't they have come from someone who's found the pressing plates? I did think it was strange when they first showed up, in a small quantity, but then as demand grew a load more came along.

Just a thought.

pottsy

[Modernsoulsucks]

I wondered that too,Pottsy. I thought the Las Vegas source was rather cavalier to put it diplomatically.

ROD

[Rich Buckley]

I may be missing something here, but how do we know that the gold label ones with the Nashville Matrix in the run outs are legit? I've not heard anything definite to say they are. Why can't they have come from someone who's found the pressing plates? I did think it was strange when they first showed up, in a small quantity, but then as demand grew a load more came along.

Just a thought.

pottsy

Yeah and they're still being sold by the same Las Vegas dealer who's been selling them on Ebay for years - Brooklyn Born. He's got one (??) up now, although he does state it's his last copy...

https://cgi.ebay.com/GREAT-NORTHERN-SOUL-45...tem270074155683

Rich

[Chalky]

It is a valid enough point tho Sebastian.

How do you stand on something like Rosco Robinson on Gerri (local release) and Wand (National release).

Both are legit.

I think there's a huge difference between local/national release and a re-issue done 30 years later. The Gerri release would be the more desirable with the national following up behind. If a repress of the Rosco Robinson was done 30 years later I doubt I would think twice about, the same same for the Four Voices on gold which I don't even consider collectable, it would have to be the first press (the green one) or nowt with me. I'd sooner spend my 50 quid on a genuine 60's release.

[Ady Potts]

Yeah and they're still being sold by the same Las Vegas dealer who's been selling them on Ebay for years - Brooklyn Born. He's got one (??) up now, although he does state it's his last copy...

https://cgi.ebay.com/GREAT-NORTHERN-SOUL-45...tem270074155683

Rich

Tell you what Rich, can you imagine the look on the persons face that had them pressed up when he took delivery of them. He opens the box only to find they've pressed it on the wrong vinyl ! oh F..K !!

[Guest Brian Ellis]

I think Bri the correct analogy is that if John Anderson considers his legal re-issues at around £10 to be a fair mark-up when they cost less to make and are also in demand[especially those previously unreleased such as Chesterfields] why is it OK for the Voices 45 to be £75 or whatever.

Why didn't John put out that Chesterfields on blue Parkway and charge £100. Because either it's a brilliant marketing ploy that never occured to him or more likely he like most of us assumes that a re-issue is only worth so much.

The Voices 45 IMO was the former. Judging from Ebay etc the price is all over the place and why would anyone auction a 45 they'd pressed in quantity other than to maximise profit for the seller and OK the person who I assumed gave him the masters. I wonder if any of the group have seen any money. Probably they were paid on the day of the session.

https://www.popsike.com/php/quicksearch.php...p;x=19&y=12

The question about whether it should be played out on that format is a bit of a red herring. Personally I'd rather hear 4 Voices on a boot than N.F. Porter on ABC WDJ with alternative intro and spoken introduction by Winston Churchill. Someone said ""It's what's in the grooves...." which is the music.

So I don't care if people want to have and play the 45 on the re-issue but I do feel that they've been taken advantage of.

ROD

Rod

You are of course quite right about John and the Grapevine 2000 series. In time a number them may well start to climb in price as demand begins to outstrip supply (if you look at the Grapevine website around half are now deleted; the Percy Stone and 2 of the latest demos have been withdrawn - so those facts in themselves means no new stock coming out, therefore a perfect recipe for demand to overtake supply).

I for one have the whole collection in demo form, as I have for the original 70's Grapevine series. Look at the prices Lester Tipton, Sam Williams, Deena Barnes, Nabay etc have fetched over the past 2-3 years. Obviously not the price of the originals, but much, much more than the couple of quid they cost in the 70's and way above the rate of inflation. Supply and demand again!

I absolutely agree with you that the 'playing out' argument is just a red herring (why the fcuk do people always throw this into any debate they can lay their hands on; it immediately deflects the discussion off into violent argument about who's right, who's wrong).

But, with the gold 4 Voices, at the time it first saw light of day no one really knew the score and people paid what they were prepared to pay - regardless of what it cost to make. People are wiser now that's why it no longer goes for £250. But it does appear that there is sufficient demand to exceed supply and people are prepared to pay £50 - £100 for it. Whether anyone feels that the purchasers are right or wrong in their decision is immaterial - the value of any record is what someone is prepared to pay. No one is conning anyone into thinking they are buying the rare original - if they were then I would have some major problem with that, but the bloody thing is a different colour f-f-s, so unless you are colour blind or competely green behind the ears (perhaps an inappropriate choice of colour in the context of this thread!) you've gotta know you aint getting an absolute original.

Should they have been put out at inflated prices in the first place - I'm fairly ambivalent about that. I'm a firm believer in market forces and if someone is prepared to pay for your goods at the price you set, you have a market. People make decisions for themselves based on what they feel an item is worth to them.

For example if a Margaret Littles original came up for sale at the current (supply and demand driven) price of about £5k, could I afford to buy it - answer 'Yes'; would I pay £5k - answer 'No' as (to me) it's not worth £5k. If it was offered at £1k, would I buy it - answer 'Yes' as that's what I would be prepared to pay for it - but clearly the supply is insufficient to meet my level of demand - so no Margaret Littles in my box in the foreseeable future.

So someone has made a nice legitimate profit from the gold 4 Voices because (perhaps ill-informed) demand exceeded supply; and before anyone flies off the handle at this I suggest they look at themsleves and if they're wearing a pair of Nike trainers (or the like) they might want to consider what they (happily) paid for them and what Nike bought them at from the sweatshop in China. Isn't this the same as the gold 4 Voices?????

Brian

[Cheltsoulnights]

CANT RECALL EVER SEING THEM AS CHEAP AS 20 QUID THO', IF I HAD I'D VE BOUGHT A FEW .

BRI.

Actually it was 5 for $185 inc. shipping

its who you know, not what you see