Sunlovers - never make the grade

[Mal C]

Hi all, wonder what actually is the first press of this 45? Is it the yellow with stars, or the Orange with solid type, no logo?

best

Mal

Edited September 5, 2019 by Mal C

[Tlscapital]

True Anorak real question for me as well. While I'm still wondering or waiting for credible factual argument on the matter, I have come to dig down the label variations to do some assumption deductions that can prove false if ever...

What is interesting though is that the Charles Perry 'how can I' b/w 'move on love' is often claim to be released first on Magnum then on MGM (promos only !!!) before being finally re-issued on Mutt & Jeff.

As this happens sometimes after an "independent" lease deal with a wider distribution company or even a major record company (both in this case) that didn't achieve the expected success hoped for due to lack of promotion or such misfortune...

Hence that Charles Perry had a promo release on Mutt-Jeff (NOT Mutt '&' Jeff !!!) that bares the same design as your Sunlover's. Could it be that this Charles Perry Mutt-Jeff promo release pre-dated the lease to the Magnum issue ?

If so this could explain why the people claim to first see the Magnum copies in the record stores back then and the Mutt & Jeff later... re-released out of disappointment after the short Magnum small success break-out and the Major MGM lease big let-down.

If this would be the case, this could indicate that this Sunlover's Mutt-Jeff orange label variation of yours could actually pre-date the switch to the new then yellow label design of Mutt & Jeff re-release.

Worth noting that the Charles Perry Mutt-Jeff promo has a P.O Box address on the label, the Sunlover's orange Mutt-Jeff has a P.O. Box and a phone number and the Charles Perry on yellow Mutt & Jeff has only a phone number.

Edited September 6, 2019 by Tlscapital

[Blackpoolsoul]

Mutt & Jeff originally was addressed at 1607 El Centro Avenue, Buddy Lowe joined the label as VP in 1971 for marketing and merchandising so perhaps some labels were issued then. I started thread here

 

Edited September 6, 2019 by Blackpoolsoul

[Mal C]

This is all good stuff, and great reading, however, I have to say we are still no nearer to knowing which came first.. laughing 

[Chalky]

On 06/09/2019 at 13:48, Tlscapital said:

True Anorak real question for me as well. While I'm still wondering or waiting for credible factual argument on the matter, I have come to dig down the label variations to do some assumption deductions that can prove false if ever...

What is interesting though is that the Charles Perry 'how can I' b/w 'move on love' is often claim to be released first on Magnum then on MGM (promos only !!!) before being finally re-issued on Mutt & Jeff.

As this happens sometimes after an "independent" lease deal with a wider distribution company or even a major record company (both in this case) that didn't achieve the expected success hoped for due to lack of promotion or such misfortune...

Hence that Charles Perry had a promo release on Mutt-Jeff (NOT Mutt '&' Jeff !!!) that bares the same design as your Sunlover's. Could it be that this Charles Perry Mutt-Jeff promo release pre-dated the lease to the Magnum issue ?

If so this could explain why the people claim to first see the Magnum copies in the record stores back then and the Mutt & Jeff later... re-released out of disappointment after the short Magnum small success break-out and the Major MGM lease big let-down.

If this would be the case, this could indicate that this Sunlover's Mutt-Jeff orange label variation of yours could actually pre-date the switch to the new then yellow label design of Mutt & Jeff re-release.

Worth noting that the Charles Perry Mutt-Jeff promo has a P.O Box address on the label, the Sunlover's orange Mutt-Jeff has a P.O. Box and a phone number and the Charles Perry on yellow Mutt & Jeff has only a phone number.

As far as I am aware and according to data elsewhere Charles Perry on Mutt-Jeff is 1965, MGM 1966.  The inspirations was cut in 1966.  

The Sunlovers "My Poor Heart" has a delta number dating it mid 1966.  The flip "This Love Of Ours" has a delta number dating it mid 1967.

[Nick Hackett]

.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Nick Hackett

[Mal C]

Have sent Pat a message via his site with that example, see what he knows we don’t... 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Mal C

[Guest Shufflin]

From JM site when had yellow up for sale

"Description

FIRST PRESS ORIGINAL yellow label, brown logo, black text the rarest of the original presses."

JM has an orange for sale now

"orange label, VINYL PRESS with the labels & titles the correct way round.: interestingly the same release # as "My poor heart" delta # 67031

 

 

[Mal C]

Ok here are two I have delta and a MJ###  prefix, I guess that relates to ‘Mutt - Jeff” something like that? 

I’m not known for my ability on the Times crossword, but having taken a look at the delta dates for the two below I have unearthed the following astounding facts! 

Sunlovers - Mutt - Jeff 18 

You’ll  never make the grade - delta # 67031 MJ 009 (June/July 1967)

This Love of Ours - delta # 67031-x. MJ-010 (June/July 1967)

Sunlovers - Breakthrough 1002 

My Poor Heart - delta # 62161  MJ-016 (June/July 1966)

This Love of Ours - delta # 67031-x. MJ-010 (June/July 1967)

 

 

Edited September 7, 2019 by Mal C

[Mal C]

So given the Yellow / brown star releases reportably also has delta # 67031 but is only on the flip which appears on both 45’s, and importantly labels,  it was released in 67, but why s disc with a 66 delta also carries that shared flip from the future, I’m none the wiser...

some one work that out cause it’s done my noodle...

Edited September 7, 2019 by Mal C

[Chalky]

There is a release, Mutt & Jeff 17 listed in R&B Indies which isn't in the pictures.

Sunlovers - My Poor Heart  MJ-106

                     I'll Tell The World

This might explain why a recording with an earlier delta appears on the later release?

[Mal C]

Yep, totally feasible... so assuming that is correct both the 45s I’ve put up are pressed June/July 67, and the 45 with  ‘I’ll tell the World’ is the 66 release... 

still which label design of You’ll never make the grade’ came first, who knows... but at a guess the orange one, but that’s just a guess...

Edited September 7, 2019 by Mal C

[Chalky]

[Tlscapital]

On 07/09/2019 at 14:38, Mal C said:

This is all good stuff, and great reading, however, I have to say we are still no nearer to knowing which came first.. laughing 

Knowing for fact, OK; no ! Not yet at least. But  in regard of the evolution of the labels, logos and info on the labels would/should put your orange Mutt-Jeff one first. The Delta matrix should provide some helpful informations if one could gather and place them for each sides on each releases.

Mutt-Jeff 16 - Charles Perry - 'move on love' (005) b/w 'how can I' (006)

Mutt-Jeff 17 - Sun Lover's - 'my poor heart' (007) b/w 'I'll tell the world' (008)

Mutt-Jeff 18 - Sunlover's - 'you'll never make the grade' (009) b/w 'this love of ours' (010)

These 3 above share the same flat design with horizontal lines.

Mutt & Jeff 16 - Charles Perry - 'move on love' (005) b/w 'how can I' (006)

Mutt & Jeff 18 - Sunlover's - 'you'll never make the grade' (009) b/w 'this love of ours' (010)

Mutt & Jeff 18 - Sunlover's - 'my poor heart' (016) b/w 'this love of ours' (010)

Mutt & Jeff 19 - Johnny Hendley - 'my baby came out of nowhere' (011) b/w ''I'll tell the world' (0??)

These above yellow Mutt & Jeff with the "Disney" logo came after...

The Breakthrough before, in between and/or after if ever... 

Edited September 8, 2019 by Tlscapital
Corrected and added Mutt & Jeff 16

[Chalky]

3 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

Knowing for fact, OK; no ! Not yet at least. But  in regard of the evolution of the labels, logos and info on the labels would/should put your orange Mutt-Jeff one first. The Delta matrix should provide some helpful informations if one could gather and place them for each sides on each releases.

Mutt-Jeff 16 - Charles Perry - 'move on love' (005) b/w 'how can I' (006)

Mutt-Jeff 17 - Sun Lover's - 'my poor heart' (007) b/w 'I'll tell the world' (008)

Mutt-Jeff 18 - Sunlover's - 'you'll never make the grade' (009) delta # 67031 MJ 009 (June/July 1967)

                                        b/w 'this love of ours' (010) delta # 67031-x. MJ-010 (June/July 1967)

These 3 above share the same flat design with horizontal lines.

Mutt & Jeff 18 - Sunlover's - 'you'll never make the grade' (009) b/w 'this love of ours' (010)

Mutt & Jeff 18 - Sunlover's - 'my poor heart' (016) b/w 'this love of ours' (010)

Mutt & Jeff 19 - Johnny Hendley - 'my baby came out if nowhere' (011) b/w ''I'll tell the world' (0??)

The yellow Mutt & Jeff with the "Disney" logo came after...

The Breakthrough before, in between and/or after if ever... 

 

Sunlovers - Breakthrough 1002 "My Poor Heart" - delta # 62161  MJ-016 (June/July 1966)

                                               b/w "This Love of Ours" - delta # 67031-x. MJ-010 (June/July 1967)

Has to be a 1967 release due to the flip

can anyone else contribute scans and or matrix run out details?

[Guest Shufflin]

my Mutt&Jeff yellow label (the one with a star either side of mutt&jeff) has

You'll never make the grade - delta 67 31, mj-009

this love of ours delta 67 31 -x, mj-10

[Mal C]

Noticed that Dave Rimmer has more titles for this label but some of his years don’t match what we have above, there is no delta matrix info on his entries... 

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, Shufflin said:

my Mutt&Jeff yellow label (the one with a star either side of mutt&jeff) has

You'll never make the grade - delta 67 31, mj-009

this love of ours delta 67 31 -x, mj-10

Is that 67031? 

[Chalky]

37 minutes ago, Mal C said:

Noticed that Dave Rimmer has more titles for this label but some of his years don’t match what we have above, there is no delta matrix info on his entries... 

Think there is more titles in R&B indies and on discogs than above

[Guest Shufflin]

22 minutes ago, Chalky said:

Is that 67031? 

yes a small 0

[Chalky]

So Mutt-Jeff 18 (orange with horizontal bars) and Mutt & Jeff 18 (Yellow) have the same delta numbers.  

60731 & 60731 x

[Blackpoolsoul]

23 minutes ago, Chalky said:

So Mutt-Jeff 18 (orange with horizontal bars) and Mutt & Jeff 18 (Yellow) have the same delta numbers.  

60731 & 60731 x

Would that just be a different run using same master or a different pressing plant ?

[Guest Shufflin]

could the orange one be considered a promo (business details on the label) and the yellow one the commercial release? just speculating

[Tlscapital]

12 hours ago, Chalky said:

Think there is more titles in R&B indies and on discogs than above

True but there's no entry before MJ 16 and past MJ 19, the matter is of another concern I thought.

[Tlscapital]

11 hours ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Would that just be a different run using same master or a different pressing plant ?

All indicate same pressing plant. Only label variations.

[Blackpoolsoul]

26 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

All indicate same pressing plant. Only label variations.

Kev Roberts met up with Joey...he may know more

https://www.soulunderground.co.uk/page1/Inspirations/

[Chalky]

3 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

True but there's no entry before MJ 16 and past MJ 19, the matter is of another concern I thought.

I can’t remember but will dig them out at weekend.  List all with the added info we have.

[Chalky]

13 hours ago, Shufflin said:

could the orange one be considered a promo (business details on the label) and the yellow one the commercial release? just speculating

 

2 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

All indicate same pressing plant. Only label variations.

I doubt Joey would go to the expense of promos or two different labels for any particular release.  Probably a case of getting records in the stores as and when the group were getting some action.  One release failed, the next hit so got the previous one out there again etc. Just speculation mind but it was about making money at every and any opportunity. 

The discs were done at Alco btw

[Chalky]

3 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

True but there's no entry before MJ 16 and past MJ 19, the matter is of another concern I thought.

Discogs goes up to 23 in design we are talking about, its missing 17 which is above and 21.   There are many more differing catalogue number system

[Tlscapital]

5 minutes ago, Chalky said:

Discogs goes up to 23 in design we are talking about, its missing 17 which is above and 21.   There are many more differing catalogue number system

Yes OK but past MJ 19 there's no more 'plot' to be inquired into as far as we're concerned here. And prior JM16 I couldn't find what Joe Jefferson produced on other labels if he ever did to attribute a JM15, 14, 13...

And what about those MUTT and JEFF Jamaican label variations...   

[Blackpoolsoul]

49 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

Yes OK but past MJ 19 there's no more 'plot' to be inquired into as far as we're concerned here. And prior JM16 I couldn't find what Joe Jefferson produced on other labels if he ever did to attribute a JM15, 14, 13...

And what about those MUTT and JEFF Jamaican label variations...   

These have no connection at all to this label as they were a Jamaican Sound System, Mutt’s real name was Kenneth Davy and he named his sound system Mutt and Jeff after the popular comic strip of the day which featured a very tall character, Mutt, and a “half-pint” named Jeff.

[Tlscapital]

22 hours ago, Chalky said:

can anyone else contribute scans and or matrix run out details?

 

On 08/09/2019 at 10:45, Tlscapital said:

Mutt-Jeff 16 - Charles Perry - 'move on love' (005) b/w 'how can I' (006)

Mutt-Jeff 17 - Sun Lover's - 'my poor heart' (007) b/w 'I'll tell the world' (008)

Mutt-Jeff 18 - Sunlover's - 'you'll never make the grade' (009) delta # 67031 MJ 009 (June/July 1967)

                                        b/w 'this love of ours' (010) delta # 67031-x. MJ-010 (June/July 1967)

These 3 above share the same flat design with horizontal lines.

Mutt & Jeff 16 - Charles Perry - 'move on love' delta # 56293 (005) b/w 'how can I' delta # 56294 (006) (November 1965)

Mutt & Jeff 18 - Sunlover's - 'you'll never make the grade' (009) b/w 'this love of ours' (010) 

Mutt & Jeff 18 - Sunlover's - 'my poor heart' delta # 62161 (016) (June/July 1966)

                                                 b/w 'this love of ours' delta # 67031-x (010) (June/July 1967)

Mutt & Jeff 19 - Johnny Hendley - 'my baby came out of nowhere' (011) b/w ''I'll tell the world' (0??)

These above yellow Mutt & Jeff with the "Disney" logo came  lkely after...

 

The Breakthrough before, in between and/or after if ever...

Breakthrough 1001 - Inspirations - 'no one else can take your place' (01) delta # 69491 HL 01 (December 1967/January 1968)

Breakthrough 1002 - Sunlover's - 'my Poor heart' - delta # 62161  MJ-016 (June/July 1966)

                                               b/w "This Love of Ours" - delta # 67031-x. MJ-010 (June/July 1967)

Unearthed my copy of the Sunlover's 'my poor heart' on the yellow Disney Mutt & Jeff copy.

Shows the same matrix and template (no surprise) as the Breakthrough issue.

Should be the same for both the Mutt-Jeff and Mutt & Jeff pressings of Charles Perry.

 It should be the same for both releases of 'you'll never make the grade'.

Date with Delta # is welcome and appreciated though.

But what about the delta date for the Inspirations 'no one else can take your place' on Breakthrough then ? 

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by Tlscapital

[Blackpoolsoul]

Appears to be December 1967/ January 1968

[Blackpoolsoul]

https://www.45rpmrecords.com/date_monarch.php

[Tlscapital]

2 minutes ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

Appears to be December 1967/ January 1968

That or even a tad later if ever. I always suspect this record to be way later than the 1966 "consensus" given date all over the place.

That sets the Breakthrough releases after the final 1967 releases of the Mutt & Jeff label (MJ 20). My gut feeling was always there.

[Mal C]

I’m out and about, but there seems to be a logic forming regarding these releases, the breakthrough ones being 67/68, fall during and after the Mutt-Jeff releases, you can see what the rationale is wit the couplings and what tracks were put out. 

Regarding the Sunlovers two label designs, im wondering whether this difference is down to the pressing plant, each plant had an art department and depending on the customers spend would produce a simple plain type label or a designed one, I think the starred ones overlap the breakthrough releases, as a new push to get a hit. The delta numbers do substantiate this.

i need to go over this again and I’ll come back with more releases from the sources Chalkey has mentioned.  Go from there....

Mal

[Blackpoolsoul]

12 minutes ago, Mal C said:

I’m out and about, but there seems to be a logic forming regarding these releases, the breakthrough ones being 67/68, fall during and after the Mutt-Jeff releases, you can see what the rationale is wit the couplings and what tracks were put out. 

Regarding the Sunlovers two label designs, im wondering whether this difference is down to the pressing plant, each plant had an art department and depending on the customers spend would produce a simple plain type label or a designed one, I think the starred ones overlap the breakthrough releases, as a new push to get a hit. The delta numbers do substantiate this.

i need to go over this again and I’ll come back with more releases from the sources Chalkey has mentioned.  Go from there....

Mal

That was my theory earlier or maybe Joey's wife (Latrail Jefferson) said the labels were a bit plain and changed them (my wife does it with our curtains every 3 months)

Edited September 9, 2019 by Blackpoolsoul

[Mal C]

Laughing... I wonder having had so many labels named after wives and girlfriends, whether that power also went into the design of the label! I’m sure it did :/) 

[Tlscapital]

Mutt-Jeff 16 - Charles Perry - 'move on love' (005) b/w 'how can I' (006) (November 1965) (PROMO ONLY ?)

Mutt-Jeff 17 - Sun Lover's - 'my poor heart' (007) b/w 'I'll tell the world' (008)  (June/July 1966)

Magnum 728 - Charles Perry - 'move on love' (005) b/w 'how can I' (006) (late 1966)

M-G-M 13621 - Charles Perry - 'move on love' b/w 'how can I' (November 1966)

Mutt-Jeff 18 - Sunlover's - 'you'll never make the grade' (009) delta # 67031 MJ 009 (June/July 1967)

                                        b/w 'this love of ours' (010) delta # 67031-x. MJ-010 (June/July 1967)

Mutt-Jeff 16 seems to have had a WLP release only... Mutt-Jeff 17 is rather rare and prove how "poor" was Joe Jefferson promotion through distribution was then. His first "breakthrough" happened through the Magnum lease but somehow totally failed commercially with MGM's lease.

One can easily understand how disappointed everyone involved in this 45 must have felt. Many such story in the music business. A first act with enormous potential that couldn't get the exposure it begs for... A second medium start and when the "BIG" thing is bound to happen; it vanishes...

It took that long (8 months or so) for a second venture for a new release on the label that also suffered not to have had the exposure it required. Likely the second lease of life for Charles Perry 'move on love' on Magnum gave Joe Jefferson the "kick" he needed to develop some his Mutt & Jeff project.

That's why I'm led to believe these flat Mutt-Jeff logo releases predate the yellow "Disney" logo variation, that are more common. With Mutt-Jeff 18 being a "bridge" record with the new Mutt & Jeff yellow "Disney" logo. Enjoying reissues as well from his back catalog. Sometimes years later...

Leaving the dates for the yellow "Disney" logo versions rather hard to place as they used the same pressing plant judging from the typos, templates and matrixes. They could be contemporary just as well if I was told that one use to see both logo variations as "new" releases on the stalls back then...

Mutt & Jeff 16 - Charles Perry - 'move on love' delta # 56293 (005) b/w 'how can I' delta # 56294 (006) (November 1965)

Mutt & Jeff 18 - Sunlover's - 'you'll never make the grade' (009) b/w 'this love of ours' (010) 

Mutt & Jeff 18 - Sunlover's - 'my poor heart' delta # 62161 (016) (June/July 1966)

                                                 b/w 'this love of ours' delta # 67031-x (010) (June/July 1967)

Mutt & Jeff 19 - Johnny Hendley - 'my baby came out of nowhere' (011) b/w ''I'll tell the world' (0??)

Breakthrough 1001 - Inspirations - 'no one else can take your place' (01) delta # 69491 HL 01 (December 1967/January 1968)

Breakthrough 1002 - Sunlover's - 'my Poor heart' - delta # 62161  MJ-016 (June/July 1966)

                                               b/w "This Love of Ours" - delta # 67031-x. MJ-010 (June/July 1967)

Breakthrough 1003 - Buddy Conner - 'when you're alone' (BT 002) delta # ??? (1970)

[Blackpoolsoul]

19 minutes ago, Tlscapital said:

Mutt-Jeff 16 - Charles Perry - 'move on love' (005) b/w 'how can I' (006) (November 1965) (PROMO ONLY ?)

Mutt-Jeff 17 - Sun Lover's - 'my poor heart' (007) b/w 'I'll tell the world' (008)  (June/July 1966)

Magnum 728 - Charles Perry - 'move on love' (005) b/w 'how can I' (006) (late 1966)

M-G-M 13621 - Charles Perry - 'move on love' b/w 'how can I' (November 1966)

Mutt-Jeff 18 - Sunlover's - 'you'll never make the grade' (009) delta # 67031 MJ 009 (June/July 1967)

                                        b/w 'this love of ours' (010) delta # 67031-x. MJ-010 (June/July 1967)

Mutt-Jeff 16 seems to have had a WLP release only... Mutt-Jeff 17 is rather rare and prove how "poor" was Joe Jefferson promotion through distribution was then. His first "breakthrough" happened through the Magnum lease but somehow totally failed commercially with MGM's lease.

One can easily understand how disappointed everyone involved in this 45 must have felt. Many such story in the music business. A first act with enormous potential that couldn't get the exposure it begs for... A second medium start and when the "BIG" thing is bound to happen; it vanishes...

It took that long (8 months or so) for a second venture for a new release on the label that also suffered not to have had the exposure it required. Likely the second lease of life for Charles Perry 'move on love' on Magnum gave Joe Jefferson the "kick" he needed to develop some his Mutt & Jeff project.

That's why I'm led to believe these flat Mutt-Jeff logo releases predate the yellow "Disney" logo variation, that are more common. With Mutt-Jeff 18 being a "bridge" record with the new Mutt & Jeff yellow "Disney" logo. Enjoying reissues as well from his back catalog. Sometimes years later...

Leaving the dates for the yellow "Disney" logo versions rather hard to place as they used the same pressing plant judging from the typos, templates and matrixes. They could be contemporary just as well if I was told that one use to see both logo variations as "new" releases on the stalls back then...

Mutt & Jeff 16 - Charles Perry - 'move on love' delta # 56293 (005) b/w 'how can I' delta # 56294 (006) (November 1965)

Mutt & Jeff 18 - Sunlover's - 'you'll never make the grade' (009) b/w 'this love of ours' (010) 

Mutt & Jeff 18 - Sunlover's - 'my poor heart' delta # 62161 (016) (June/July 1966)

                                                 b/w 'this love of ours' delta # 67031-x (010) (June/July 1967)

Mutt & Jeff 19 - Johnny Hendley - 'my baby came out of nowhere' (011) b/w ''I'll tell the world' (0??)

Breakthrough 1001 - Inspirations - 'no one else can take your place' (01) delta # 69491 HL 01 (December 1967/January 1968)

Breakthrough 1002 - Sunlover's - 'my Poor heart' - delta # 62161  MJ-016 (June/July 1966)

                                               b/w "This Love of Ours" - delta # 67031-x. MJ-010 (June/July 1967)

Breakthrough 1003 - Buddy Conner - 'when you're alone' (BT 002) delta # ??? (1970)

The Buddy Connor/Conner was released twice Orange 1003 (same track both sides B dose Instrumental) and Red 1004 (Mind Of Your Own B Side) I have seen them as 1970 and 1971 respectively

There's a good thread here but no dates (and takes us into the Nightmare of California Gold label too)(when I say Nightmare I mean great stuff as this thread just keeps giving and giving info)

 

Edited September 9, 2019 by Blackpoolsoul

[The Yank]

Another one for the list. Flip side is 

"Johnny's Gone To Vietnam" -

 

[Guest Shufflin]

58 minutes ago, The Yank said:

Another one for the list. Flip side is 

"Johnny's Gone To Vietnam" -

like that, thanks

[Robbk]

The pressing plant numbers and your theories match what I remember.  I seem to remember Charles Perry's "Move On Love" first being played on KGFJ in late 1965, and first seeing the orange Mutt-Jeff records.  The Mutt & Jeff versions with the stars were when the record was only played as an "Oldie", after the first run petered out.  The Magnum release was between those 2, and that's also when I started seeing the MGM copies (which were always very rare in L.A.  Maybe Jefferson kept the rights to distribute in the L.A. market for his own labels, and leased that to Magnum during that lease period.  maybe all the MGM distribution was outside the L.A. area, and only a few trickled in from outside (brought in by travelers like me), and 2nd-hand dealers with sources outside L.A.  I never saw the MGM copy for sale new, in an L.A record shop in 1966.

[The Yank]

A KGFJ survey from late  '65 with 

Charles Perry at # 12- 

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by The Yank

[Robbk]

It was already on Magnum then.  I remember seeing the orange Mutt-Jeff a few months before the Magnum.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Robbk

[The Yank]

I'm sure you did- there seems to be a mix up with the delta #'s- According to the Monarch listing I have, 

#56293 goes to March/ April 1965 not November, 1965  as listed above. There was also a listing for the

Magnum release as "late 1966"  which is why I posted the survey showing 1965 ! 

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by The Yank

[Tlscapital]

5 hours ago, Robbk said:

It was already on Magnum then.  I remember seeing the orange Mutt-Jeff a few months before the Magnum.

Charles Perry on an orange Mutt-Jeff ! Nice. And have you ever seen stockers on M-G-M back then ?

[Robbk]

2 hours ago, Tlscapital said:

Charles Perry on an orange Mutt-Jeff ! Nice. And have you ever seen stockers on M-G-M back then ?

I never saw a store stocker in L.A. until the early 1970s.  And THEN, it was in a thrift shop, possibly carried by a migrant.  I never saw it in the wall boxes, where the record shop clerks pulled out the current 45s for sale.  I don't believe the MGM issue was marketed and sold in L.A.  I believe that Jefferson's deal with MGM was for the rest of USA, after he leased the L.A. area, and perhaps, all of southwestern USA to Magnum.  Maybe Magnum continued distributing L.A. with an extension, when their initial lease period was up, and Jefferson was dissatisfied with what Magnum did with the record nationally, or regionally, and he thought MGM could do a better job nationally, but he thought Magnum was solid in The L.A. area, and could do better there than MGM?  Magnum had the connections in southern California, and MGM didn't really have good connections with the Soul record shops and DJs in L.A., or anywhere else.  But, Magnum could not get the record bought from distributors outside southern California.  So, he thought that MGM would do better in those places.  He had no idea how little they knew about marketing Soul records, and how little influence they had with people in the Soul Music industry.  Even Capitol, Columbia, Decca, and RCA were a LOT better than MGM and Warner Brothers, despite their being much less effective than Atlantic, Chess, Motown, VJ, Modern, Liberty/Imperial, Mercury(both Pop AND R&B Major) with the Soul market.

[Tlscapital]

21 minutes ago, Robbk said:

I never saw a store stocker in L.A. until the early 1970s.  And THEN, it was in a thrift shop, possibly carried by a migrant.  I never saw it in the wall boxes, where the record shop clerks pulled out the current 45s for sale.  I don't believe the MGM issue was marketed and sold in L.A.  I believe that Jefferson's deal with MGM was for the rest of USA, after he leased the L.A. area, and perhaps, all of southwestern USA to Magnum.  Maybe Magnum continued distributing L.A. with an extension, when their initial lease period was up, and Jefferson was dissatisfied with what Magnum did with the record nationally, or regionally, and he thought MGM could do a better job nationally, but he thought Magnum was solid in The L.A. area, and could do better there than MGM.

Well I asked because I never heard of or saw a stocker on M-G-M of the Charles Perry and thought it not to exist. Evidently M-G-M let down in order to promote the record nationally must have affected Joe Jefferson (and all involved in this project) hopes for this record. Proof of that the "common" promo copies on M-G-M. The orange Mutt-Jeff release I was just not aware of it's existence. Would you happen to have that record at reach ? 

As for how and what M-G-M did with their "soul" releases it goes a bit all over the place. Somehow I have always thought that they "lacked" confidence with the smaller acts or those who would not sign up for further releases. The 'one shot' leases or the more 'root' sounding materials seemed to be doomed to wander in the "dark" alleys of the unsent promo count of 25 boxes. Not Roy Hamilton, Kim Weston or the Formations...

[Robbk]

1 hour ago, Tlscapital said:

Well I asked because I never heard of or saw a stocker on M-G-M of the Charles Perry and thought it not to exist. Evidently M-G-M let down in order to promote the record nationally must have affected Joe Jefferson (and all involved in this project) hopes for this record. Proof of that the "common" promo copies on M-G-M. The orange Mutt-Jeff release I was just not aware of it's existence. Would you happen to have that record at reach ? 

As for how and what M-G-M did with their "soul" releases it goes a bit all over the place. Somehow I have always thought that they "lacked" confidence with the smaller acts or those who would not sign up for further releases. The 'one shot' leases or the more 'root' sounding materials seemed to be doomed to wander in the "dark" alleys of the unsent promo count of 25 boxes. Not Roy Hamilton, Kim Weston or the Formations...

I saw a lot of MGM promotional copies of "Move On Love", and only a handful of store stockers over the years (none of those in L.A.).  I didn't buy the Mutt-Jeff "Move On love" by Charles Perry, because I hadn't heard it yet, and it was priced $1.00.  I couldn't afford to by every unheard R&B/Soul label record I saw at $1.00 when I was 19, I had to be selective, and mostly wait for records to reach the thrift and junk shops, or the bargain bins in the record shops, where I got boxes full for average 5¢ apiece, or 10¢, or 10 for $1.00 at Woolworth's, or 5 or 3 for $1.00, or free choice of ANY from the bargain bins after helping carry record boxes from the delivery trucks.  I was attending university, and working a part-time job that didn't pay much.  I didn't sell duplicates.  I only swapped them with other collectors for records I didn't have.  I first bought the Magnum issue, after hearing it on KGFJ.  Later, I bought the Mutt & Jeff issue.  I never saw the Mutt-Jeff issue again at a low price.  I wasn't so much of a completist, as to want ALL different issues of ALL L.A. records.  Had it been a Detroit or Chicago Soul record, then I would have even paid collector prices to get the original.  I specialise in Detroit and Chicago Soul and R&B, and was always willing to pay anything within reason to obtain originals from those labels.  But, I never earned much money, and so, couldn't buy every R&B and Soul record in existence (especially those which I already had 2 different issues of the label!)

Edited September 11, 2019 by Robbk