Interesting Read ? Some Points About The Uk Northern Soul Scene And Us Soul Music

[Mike]

Stumbled across this entry on the Wall of Sound blog.

A fairly serious piece, and may be a bit heavy for a cold thursday however the way it looks at "Out On The Floor" is interesting, a clip below

This point will become clearer, perhaps, if we turn to Dobie Gray's recording of 'Out on the Floor'. Lyrically and musically, the song is an interesting mid-point between the integrationist agenda in black politics and the civil rights movement; between Ward's cultural poles of Motown and James Brown (1998, p. 123-169).

https://wallofsound.wordpress.com/2006/12/1...-us-soul-music/

[Bazza]

Stumbled across this entry on the Wall of Sound blog.

A fairly serious piece, and may be a bit heavy for a cold thursday however the way it looks at "Out On The Floor" is interesting, a clip below

This point will become clearer, perhaps, if we turn to Dobie Gray's recording of 'Out on the Floor'. Lyrically and musically, the song is an interesting mid-point between the integrationist agenda in black politics and the civil rights movement; between Ward's cultural poles of Motown and James Brown (1998, p. 123-169).

https://wallofsound.wordpress.com/2006/12/1...-us-soul-music/

Blimey,can some one translate it in to english, what is he on about

Bazza

[tone5446]

Wot a lorra twaddle, someone is always trying to read something into the reason our scene exists. To say that we identify with the African-American experience is balls, how could we even pretend to take on board what it is to be black and American (an English black person probably hasn't had the same experiences either). What these dopes don't understand is that we just like the music and the feeling that you get from being part of a scene that on the whole outsiders don't understand, despite all the references to Northern Soul in the media, its a sure thing for the most part that they really don't get what its all about apart from Robert Elms (joke). A short list should sum it up for anyone who's not sure - Dancing, vinyl, drugs, alcohol, large wooden dancefloors a long way from home, motorways, friendship and moustaches (thats a 70s reference).

Happy Christmas to all my readers

Tone

[Wilxy]

[BrianB]

Wot a lorra twaddle, someone is always trying to read something into the reason our scene exists. To say that we identify with the African-American experience is balls, how could we even pretend to take on board what it is to be black and American (an English black person probably hasn't had the same experiences either). What these dopes don't understand is that we just like the music and the feeling that you get from being part of a scene that on the whole outsiders don't understand, despite all the references to Northern Soul in the media, its a sure thing for the most part that they really don't get what its all about apart from Robert Elms (joke). A short list should sum it up for anyone who's not sure - Dancing, vinyl, drugs, alcohol, large wooden dancefloors a long way from home, motorways, friendship and moustaches (thats a 70s reference).

Happy Christmas to all my readers

Tone

I have 2 friends on the scene who really don't identify with the ethos of being a NS music lover. They show this by calling our revered artists "co**s", "n*g***s" and so on.

I cannot understand what they are doing on our scene. They both vote BNP and our longish friendships have deteriorated as they now (I think) use these terms to wind me up and get a reaction from me.

How can you love the music but not identify with the people who recorded, wrote, arranged, played or produced this life changing experience of ours?

Maybe its just me?

[Modernsoulsucks]

I think he's saying that we only identify with the music cos it's all based on Pop Motown which was aimed at the white market anyway.

When Black artists such as JB began to speak directly to the experience of Black Americans we didn't get it.

With the obvious exception of something like "Say it loud..." Im not quite sure how such gems as "Hot pants", Get up I feel..." etc raised awareness of the everyday disadvantages of being Black in the USA in the 60's and 70's.

In fact I'd be pretty careful who I cited as an icon of the Black "liberation struggle" if all I could come up with was a guy famed for his copious drug intake and tax evasion.

Of course the piece was so convoluted I coulda got it wrong.

ROD

[Zed1]

This point will become clearer, perhaps, if we turn to Dobie Gray's recording of 'Out on the Floor'. Lyrically and musically, the song is an interesting mid-point between the integrationist agenda in black politics and the civil rights movement; between Ward's cultural poles of Motown and James Brown (1998, p. 123-169).

So!..........

'Hey,Hey,Hey!, Yeah,Yeah,Yeah!, I'm getting my kicks out on the floor'....and 'The Chicks are out of sight'

Translates to an "Interesting mid-point between the intergrationist agenda in black politics and the civil rights movement"

Well fook me!!!.... for the last 30+ years I just thought the song was about some bloke out on the pull, and having a dance??.

[chrissie]

What a load of twaddle

QoFxx

[Guest rachel]

He might have some interesting points but he doesn't go into anything in enough depth to explain what he means, never mind back any of them up properly - there's not even any examples of the lyrics that he's referring to. On the surface it might seem to be 'heavy reading' but there's very little substance! It all seems a bit pointless, aimed at a very narrow audience (namely those who can remember all the words to 'Out On The Floor' from memory - I know I can't), and generally just an exercise in intellectual self-indulgence.

Thanks for posting though Mike

Edited December 21, 2006 by rachel

[Guest vinylvixen]

Stumbled across this entry on the Wall of Sound blog.

A fairly serious piece, and may be a bit heavy for a cold thursday however the way it looks at "Out On The Floor" is interesting, a clip below

This point will become clearer, perhaps, if we turn to Dobie Gray's recording of 'Out on the Floor'. Lyrically and musically, the song is an interesting mid-point between the integrationist agenda in black politics and the civil rights movement; between Ward's cultural poles of Motown and James Brown (1998, p. 123-169).

https://wallofsound.wordpress.com/2006/12/1...-us-soul-music/

Dear Mr Beard Stroker (see above)...don't you realise?? It's what's in the groove that counts.........

Heyheyhey, baby - outta sight....

Jo

[Guest]

Sorry you didn't all like the bit on my blog. I've been a soul fan since the mid-70s, and am still a regular today. You'll be surprised to know that a few university researchers write about Northern Soul (including me). Sorry it's not easy to read, it's the way we write. Probably something to do with my brummie accent!

I write about Northern Soul because I love the music and the dancing and because I didn't agree with what most university researchers were saying when they wrote about NS. I think it's interesting that almost all Northern records avoid the funk sounds that were popular with black Americans after about 1968. But the rest of the article is about why the Northern scene's about "dancing, vinyl, drugs, alcohol, large wooden dancefloors, and friendship". I've long since forgotten about moustaches.

If anyone can stand reading the academic style, I'll put up what I said about dancing. Now that should get you going! [by the way the owners of songs won't let anyone quote from the lyrics in books.]

[Guest Brett F]

He might have some interesting points but he doesn't go into anything in enough depth to explain what he means, never mind back any of them up properly - there's not even any examples of the lyrics that he's referring to. On the surface it might seem to be 'heavy reading' but there's very little substance! It all seems a bit pointless, aimed at a very narrow audience (namely those who can remember all the words to 'Out On The Floor' from memory - I know I can't), and generally just an exercise in intellectual self-indulgence.

Thanks for posting though Mike

What a load of rubbish, what an earth do you know of Nicola Abbaganano, she said......Reason itself is fallible, and this fallibility must find a place in our logic.

What gets me about you so called University graduates is that you think......Ideology has very little to do with 'consciousness' - it is profoundly unconscious..of course this is a profound nonsense,,,,,,,, .Ps....never liked Greek soul fans......

Hell but thats between me and you..........later cat....... ...............

Brett

[Guest Netspeaky]

Sorry you didn't all like the bit on my blog. I've been a soul fan since the mid-70s, and am still a regular today. You'll be surprised to know that a few university researchers write about Northern Soul (including me). Sorry it's not easy to read, it's the way we write. Probably something to do with my brummie accent!

I write about Northern Soul because I love the music and the dancing and because I didn't agree with what most university researchers were saying when they wrote about NS. I think it's interesting that almost all Northern records avoid the funk sounds that were popular with black Americans after about 1968. But the rest of the article is about why the Northern scene's about "dancing, vinyl, drugs, alcohol, large wooden dancefloors, and friendship". I've long since forgotten about moustaches.

If anyone can stand reading the academic style, I'll put up what I said about dancing. Now that should get you going! [by the way the owners of songs won't let anyone quote from the lyrics in books.]

Who said Funk was popular with black America, the white pop charts!!!!!!!!!????????????, as I have been collecting 1000's of non funk records from the 1968-to date which just happen to be by black americans which have not one funk riff in them, so someone missed the point here, and I don't think it was me. I'm not anti funk either, as I have a small but healthy collection myself.

[Guest mel brat]

Wot a lorra twaddle, someone is always trying to read something into the reason our scene exists. To say that we identify with the African-American experience is balls, how could we even pretend to take on board what it is to be black and American (an English black person probably hasn't had the same experiences either). What these dopes don't understand is that we just like the music and the feeling that you get from being part of a scene that on the whole outsiders don't understand, despite all the references to Northern Soul in the media, its a sure thing for the most part that they really don't get what its all about apart from Robert Elms (joke). A short list should sum it up for anyone who's not sure - Dancing, vinyl, drugs, alcohol, large wooden dancefloors a long way from home, motorways, friendship and moustaches (thats a 70s reference).

Happy Christmas to all my readers

Tone

Yes, I've no doubt that what you describe is all that "Soul" means to SOME people, however...

And when did the Black American experience depend on the UK Northern scene to define itself? Dobie Gray's record wasn't made for us in the first instance, now was it?

[Billy Freemantle]

I think it's interesting that the piece identifies Black American jive- talk as key elements in the song. I'd certainly never considered that before, although I very much doubt that Dobie was making history here! But the article then goes on to try to forge an association between this use of the vernacular and "sayings" on the Northern Soul scene. " More interestingly perhaps even the lyrics that draw on black vernacular speech are I would argue transformed in the sene to articulate its onwn communality... This can be undertood in the wider use in the scene of the African American terms 'right on', 'keep the faith' and 'brothers and sisters'." Are these terms used in NS and were they ever used by anyone other than Dave Godin? I don't believe this is or was the case and if this is true it just makes the article meaningless verbiage.

[Guest]

I think it's interesting that the piece identifies Black American jive- talk as key elements in the song. I'd certainly never considered that before, although I very much doubt that Dobie was making history here! But the article then goes on to try to forge an association between this use of the vernacular and "sayings" on the Northern Soul scene. " More interestingly perhaps even the lyrics that draw on black vernacular speech are I would argue transformed in the sene to articulate its onwn communality... This can be undertood in the wider use in the scene of the African American terms 'right on', 'keep the faith' and 'brothers and sisters'." Are these terms used in NS and were they ever used by anyone other than Dave Godin? I don't believe this is or was the case and if this is true it just makes the article meaningless verbiage.

In this bit of the article I'm arguing against other articles where they have argued Northern Soul is about being independent from the London music scene and has a simple link to the culture of African Americans who live in Detroit. So I'm saying that it's more complicated than that. Soul music was going through big changes during this period, and the black pop music of the early 70s with its great dance records that define NS were being replaced by funkier sounds. In American there are sales charts just for black Americans [there's an article about that in blog as well] and they show a shift in taste among African Americans that isn't shared on the Northern scene. And by the way I'm a big funk record collector as well.

I've done research into the 60s dance fads in the US, and the role of black music and how it changed. OntF is interesting because it picks up on many of these new changes, even if it keeps mainly to the earlier style we love to dance to. If you look at British pop now, even though new styles come along, lots of records are still made in the older style. You were still getting Doo Wop style records in the early 60s, even after it was going out of popularity.

I remember the first two sayings were widely used, and were the main ones on badges together with the black power fist. That's interesting, isn't it? Letters to Blues and Soul often used brothers or sisters, although I accept Dave Godin was probably most fond of the sayings.

I know academics write in something close to a Glaswegian dialect, and so it's not easy to understand unless you live there, or have mates there, but I don't think it's twaddle, and why don't some of you think you can't have loved NS for 30 years and work at a university?

[Guest rachel]

I know academics write in something close to a Glaswegian dialect, and so it's not easy to understand unless you live there, or have mates there, but I don't think it's twaddle, and why don't some of you think you can't have loved NS for 30 years and work at a university?

I don't think anyone's said that you can't do that, and to be honest I think you're coming across as patronising assuming that people don't agree with you because they don't understand what you've written - there are plenty of people on here that do/ have done academic work at a high level. I do find your writing unecessarily complicated in places though - just my opinion, but I always think the simpler the writing the better, especially when you're trying to get complex ideas across.

I've never heard that about lyrics before, and I'm sure I've read articles where song lyrics are quoted to explain points, though from memory they probably do reference them as "by permission of..." In fact there are a few novels I can think of as well which quote songs in the text. I'd say it was definitely worth looking into anyway as it just doesn't work without examples.

[Little-stevie]

I have 2 friends on the scene who really don't identify with the ethos of being a NS music lover. They show this by calling our revered artists "co**s", "n*g***s" and so on.

I cannot understand what they are doing on our scene. They both vote BNP and our longish friendships have deteriorated as they now (I think) use these terms to wind me up and get a reaction from me.

How can you love the music but not identify with the people who recorded, wrote, arranged, played or produced this life changing experience of ours?

Maybe its just me?

Hi Brian

Thats a subject all in itself....I have met many of the Far Right brigade over the years on the mod/scooter/soul scene..I have also asked the question on here in a topic and got little or no reply from folk..Quite a few on this forum will know people like your so called freinds and go to soul events with them,they like the music but hate black people,you aint gonna get many coming on here to admit that though..Most folk don't really look at the politics behind the music and what was going on in America in the 60s/70s...Like i said,thats another topic in itself and would get pretty heated if we started it..Many many folk on this scene are sitting pretty with a good income off the back of these soul tunes and have shall we say right wing leanings..I think its best to leave it there...

For me it was looking into the politics of America,civil rights,King and many other issues that made my passion for the music that much stronger..I think the pain and sorrow that a lot of the artists suffered comes out through much of the music,and that is what we call soul...The racist is a person without Soul...Now that would be a topic to start..

[Guest mrs norman maine]

I have met many of the Far Right brigade over the years on the mod/scooter/soul scene..I have also asked the question on here in a topic and got little or no reply from folk..Quite a few on this forum will know people like your so called freinds and go to soul events with them,they like the music but hate black people,you aint gonna get many coming on here to admit that though

I'd be interested in reading that post & the replies you got, I don't remember it. Is there an easy way of linking to it?

When I first came onto the scene I was completely flummoxed by the attitudes of those (thankfully few & far between) who, as you say, like the music, but hate the people. It seems completely illogical. That's 'cos it is! I've always called it the 'Cotton Club mentality'-referring to the NYC Club that the in the 1920's/30's was happy to host performances by & make profits from black entertainers, but barred paying black customers.

Anyway, sorry to swerve slightly off topic Mike & Wall.

Edited December 23, 2006 by mrs norman maine

[Guest micke]

Hi Wall,

It was an interesting piece. Couple of things... I'm not sure that African American music changed from (Northern Soul Type) soul to funk because musical tastes changed, the rapture occurred much earlier even in the late 50s, with doowop (fore runner to soul) and R&B (fore runner to funk). The 2 strains of black American Music were present even back then. I think the reason peolpe in England back in the 70s gravitated towards soul was because of the honesty of the lyrics and melody. The working class in the UK back in the 70s wasn't a great place, but it did stand for truth and work ethic, and its possibly through these common threads that the affinity with soul emerged. I do think that funk is rooted not in soul, but in celebration, yes an African American thing but certainly different from soul (which has its roots firmly in Doowop and love). Nowadays, many regard Rap and Hip Hop as the most recent forms of funk. Whilst soul has developed through Modern Soul into a whole pleatha of output that constitutes a significant output of Black American dancable output with honest lyrics and melody....even today!

Now, this is well put! :good:

[Modernsoulsucks]

If we're going to get down to the political,social and economic context in which music we all love has developed, then a thought that has often occured to me that is rather uncomfortable.

Without slavery would we have what we've got. All that death, misery and degredation.

And who is fit to answer. Maybe Wall can tell us if anyone has even tried. Could it ever have been deemed "worth" it.

ROD

[Zed1]

If we're going to get down to the political,social and economic context in which music we all love has developed, then a thought that has often occured to me that is rather uncomfortable.

Without slavery would we have what we've got. All that death, misery and degredation.

And who is fit to answer. Maybe Wall can tell us if anyone has even tried. Could it ever have been deemed "worth" it.

ROD

Interesting thought!

And if true it would not just be 'Our' music where the effect would be felt!.

How many of the great 60s rock bands list the Blues as their influence, bands like Muddy Waters etc are quoted by the Beatles, The Stones, The Who, as reasons for getting into Music!.

The Standard 12 bar Blues was the backbone of many of the aboves great hits, and how many groups/artists today list the Beatles, Stones, Who etc as their influence??..

I think the music scene today may look VERY different!

Edited December 22, 2006 by Teapot

[Guest Netspeaky]

I've done research into the 60s dance fads in the US, and the role of black music and how it changed. OntF is interesting because it picks up on many of these new changes, even if it keeps mainly to the earlier style we love to dance to. If you look at British pop now, even though new styles come along, lots of records are still made in the older style. You were still getting Doo Wop style records in the early 60s, even after it was going out of popularity.

If you look at American Pop in the early 60's you would have found the second coming of Do-wop 1960-64, just before the British Invasion (Beatles, Herman Hermits, Stones etc) hit, I don't recall many do-wop groups in the Uk. As for Funk it was a short lived era 1969-74.

[Guest]

I don't think anyone's said that you can't do that, and to be honest I think you're coming across as patronising assuming that people don't agree with you because they don't understand what you've written - there are plenty of people on here that do/ have done academic work at a high level. I do find your writing unecessarily complicated in places though - just my opinion, but I always think the simpler the writing the better, especially when you're trying to get complex ideas across.

I've never heard that about lyrics before, and I'm sure I've read articles where song lyrics are quoted to explain points, though from memory they probably do reference them as "by permission of..." In fact there are a few novels I can think of as well which quote songs in the text. I'd say it was definitely worth looking into anyway as it just doesn't work without examples.

I'm not doing very well, here am I? I didn't intend to sound patronising. I think you are right the bit on my blog is too complicated for the point I was trying to make. But it's just a section ten pages into a 12 page article. I showed it to mates on the scene before it was published and they all found lots to disagree with.

I have to be honest I'm a bit shocked by how many people have read the piece (more in two days than usually look at my blog in a month!) and it matters to me that you know I'm not just one of these people who know nothing but feel able to say what NS is about. It's created some good discussion, though.

One of the other reasons (beyond poor writing!) I think my points seem to lack evidence is that I'm referring to other people's articles, and earlier work I've done, where the examples can be found. Most people interested in the article in the academic journal will have read these, or can find them quickly. By the way the copyright holders of songs used to allow academics to publish sections of lyrics, but about two years ago they wanted you to pay.

In my defence, I'm saying that the lyrics and music are midway between earlier and new styles. For anyone who's interested I give lots of examples from a James Brown record in another post to my blog. You can find many of the similar musical devices in OotF, and some of the lyrics (especially I'm really movin', I feel like groovin' and The chicks are outa sight) can also be found often in JB records, but they are unusual in black pop records before.

Tim

[Guest rasfoz]

Wot a lorra twaddle, someone is always trying to read something into the reason our scene exists. To say that we identify with the African-American experience is balls, how could we even pretend to take on board what it is to be black and American (an English black person probably hasn't had the same experiences either). What these dopes don't understand is that we just like the music and the feeling that you get from being part of a scene that on the whole outsiders don't understand, despite all the references to Northern Soul in the media, its a sure thing for the most part that they really don't get what its all about apart from Robert Elms (joke). A short list should sum it up for anyone who's not sure - Dancing, vinyl, drugs, alcohol, large wooden dancefloors a long way from home, motorways, friendship and moustaches (thats a 70s reference).

Happy Christmas to all my readers

Tone

yes spot on about an english black person not expericenceing the same stuff being english & black myself the article is cockwaffle as tone says its about the reasons hes listed not some bulls*it black identity crisis

peace out word up G

[Guest rasfoz]

Hi Brian

Thats a subject all in itself....I have met many of the Far Right brigade over the years on the mod/scooter/soul scene..I have also asked the question on here in a topic and got little or no reply from folk..Quite a few on this forum will know people like your so called freinds and go to soul events with them,they like the music but hate black people,you aint gonna get many coming on here to admit that though..Most folk don't really look at the politics behind the music and what was going on in America in the 60s/70s...Like i said,thats another topic in itself and would get pretty heated if we started it..Many many folk on this scene are sitting pretty with a good income off the back of these soul tunes and have shall we say right wing leanings..I think its best to leave it there...

For me it was looking into the politics of America,civil rights,King and many other issues that made my passion for the music that much stronger..I think the pain and sorrow that a lot of the artists suffered comes out through much of the music,and that is what we call soul...The racist is a person without Soul...Now that would be a topic to start..

just makes me laugh really certain people might as well walk round with a placard with i cant be trusted i am a decietfull liar , hypocrit , i am a c*ck i have no morals im totally unscrupilous how can you take people seriously or in a genuine sincere way , we all know some as stevie says, just makes me laugh when you see them involved in the scene or the music in any way , for example i remember being at a niter at peterborugh late 80s where a geezer had a white fist on a black shirt, this stupid muppet was asking him where he got his white power

tshirt saying how smart it was so on & so forth, anyway he was asked what he was doing at the venue listening to what probally was 80% black music if he was as far right on the politcal ladder as he professed he just didnt get how much of a turd he looked, unreal just makes me laugh do a lot of laughing dont i , anyway there used to be a lot of it about dont know about now though

[Guest lifeandsoul]

"What these dopes don't understand is that we just like the music (african American) and the feeling that you get from being part of a scene that on the whole outsiders don't understand,"

*That is not to deny that there is a sense of identification with African American culture (Soul), just that it is much more conditional , and relates more to the cultural possibilities it offers for an English alternative identity (a scene), rather than any consistent support for the liberation struggle taking place in the US at the time."

Words in brackets are mine but otherwise aren't the two quotes saying the same thing?

[Little-stevie]

just makes me laugh really certain people might as well walk round with a placard with i cant be trusted i am a decietfull liar , hypocrit , i am a c*ck i have no morals im totally unscrupilous how can you take people seriously or in a genuine sincere way , we all know some as stevie says, just makes me laugh when you see them involved in the scene or the music in any way , for example i remember being at a niter at peterborugh late 80s where a geezer had a white fist on a black shirt, this stupid muppet was asking him where he got his white power

tshirt saying how smart it was so on & so forth, anyway he was asked what he was doing at the venue listening to what probally was 80% black music if he was as far right on the politcal ladder as he professed he just didnt get how much of a turd he looked, unreal just makes me laugh do a lot of laughing dont i , anyway there used to be a lot of it about dont know about now though

Seperate topic i think or just a few pms between us....I was at a Peterborugh in the 80s too ,could have been the same night as you,Eddie Holman and Junior Walker live,had a good section of the crowd in front of me making Hitler salutes while the acts were singing ,not just one or two folk,we are talking about many here..I did not really give toss back then,had seen plenty of them types at Scooter rallies and other places..They did not make any salutes at me,just to the stage,they must have thought,he's ok,he's black but he's one of us ..Mixed up foooooookers indeed.....Like i said its for another topic and some would be un-easy with this subject on here because they know or have known some of these pond life and still have them as freinds...Some of the pond life could be watching this topic too ...

[Guest rasfoz]

Yeah good idea stevie as it would appear we have experieced a few likewise situations along winding mod scooter soul road

[Mike]

post deleted

posted the link as thought it be of interest and while thought may get some discussion going did not expect to end up having to delete posts giving off abuse to the author, who is also a member and has posted in this thread

[Guest mel brat]

I've done research into the 60s dance fads in the US, and the role of black music and how it changed. OntF is interesting because it picks up on many of these new changes, even if it keeps mainly to the earlier style we love to dance to. If you look at British pop now, even though new styles come along, lots of records are still made in the older style. You were still getting Doo Wop style records in the early 60s, even after it was going out of popularity.

If you look at American Pop in the early 60's you would have found the second coming of Do-wop 1960-64, just before the British Invasion (Beatles, Herman Hermits, Stones etc) hit, I don't recall many do-wop groups in the Uk. As for Funk it was a short lived era 1969-74.

Not sure about your time scales "1969-74", as this would appear to exclude acts like Parliament/Funkadelic, Cameo, Slave et.al., who's most prolific output and influence carries far beyond the dates you quoted.

[Simon T]

Not sure about your time scales "1969-74", as this would appear to exclude acts like Parliament/Funkadelic, Cameo, Slave et.al., who's most prolific output and influence carries far beyond the dates you quoted.

early Cool & the Gang too?

[Guest mel brat]

I'm not doing very well, here am I? I didn't intend to sound patronising. I think you are right the bit on my blog is too complicated for the point I was trying to make. But it’s just a section ten pages into a 12 page article. I showed it to mates on the scene before it was published and they all found lots to disagree with.

I have to be honest I’m a bit shocked by how many people have read the piece (more in two days than usually look at my blog in a month!) and it matters to me that you know I’m not just one of these people who know nothing but feel able to say what NS is about. It’s created some good discussion, though.

One of the other reasons (beyond poor writing!) I think my points seem to lack evidence is that I’m referring to other people’s articles, and earlier work I’ve done, where the examples can be found. Most people interested in the article in the academic journal will have read these, or can find them quickly. By the way the copyright holders of songs used to allow academics to publish sections of lyrics, but about two years ago they wanted you to pay.

In my defence, I’m saying that the lyrics and music are midway between earlier and new styles. For anyone who’s interested I give lots of examples from a James Brown record in another post to my blog. You can find many of the similar musical devices in OotF, and some of the lyrics (especially I'm really movin’, I feel like groovin’ and The chicks are outa sight) can also be found often in JB records, but they are unusual in black pop records before.

Tim

I wouldn't worry TOO much about some of the criticism you've received, as we should all know by now that writing about Soul music is notoriously difficult! - It is such an integral part of our lives that ANY analysis of our "motivation" as fans is bound to be controversial! Soul fans have a history of being defensive in the face of outside criticism (even if this criticism is largely benign), EXACTLY because we have adopted what is an essentially "alien" musical culture which we have often had to defend against the bigoted and ignorant!

Yes, Soul music is about "feeling it", and as a consequence the best way to understand 'Northern Soul' is probably "Out On The Floor", but it is nonsense to assert (as some on these pages have) that a love of Northern Soul or Soul music in general is "nothing to do with politics". Whether we like it or not, adopting to champion Black music is a somewhat "political" act. It would be a perverse situation indeed to profess a love of the Black American contribution to art without then being obliged to defend the basic civil rights of the artists who made it happen!

However, to many of us who came to Soul music at a time of social unrest in America, it would be naive in the extreme to deny that this did not assist our acceptance of the black face behind the recording! The assassination of Martin Luther King and seeing Tommie Smith and John Carlos giving the Black Power salute at the 1968 Mexico Olympics on TV, had a profound and significant effect on me as a fourteen year old boy, and I may have been less open to the Soul music experience had it not been for these challenges to examine my own predudices and misconceptions regarding black people.

Edited December 23, 2006 by mel brat

[Guest Netspeaky]

Not sure about your time scales "1969-74", as this would appear to exclude acts like Parliament/Funkadelic, Cameo, Slave et.al., who's most prolific output and influence carries far beyond the dates you quoted.

Funk had moved on to a more rock influenced music in my mind by the time Parliament/Funkadelic had come along, Kool and Gang and gone MOR by this time as well.

[Guest Baz]

Funk had moved on to a more rock influenced music in my mind by the time Parliament/Funkadelic had come along, Kool and Gang and gone MOR by this time as well.

Got to dissagree with the time scale also funk 69-74? never in a million years! Roger & the Gypsies - Pass the hatchet on severn b dates to around 66, Eldrige Holmes humpback 66 again, what about all the daptone realeses? far dates past 74

Irma Thomas ruler of my heart 1963, a heavy blues laden record no mistaking its pure funk!

[Guest andyrattigan]

I have 2 friends on the scene who really don't identify with the ethos of being a NS music lover. They show this by calling our revered artists "co**s", "n*g***s" and so on.

I cannot understand what they are doing on our scene. They both vote BNP and our longish friendships have deteriorated as they now (I think) use these terms to wind me up and get a reaction from me.

How can you love the music but not identify with the people who recorded, wrote, arranged, played or produced this life changing experience of ours?

Maybe its just me?

If I was running an event and somebody used these terms to describe the artists and the music that I revere I would have them chucked out. People that are rascist but listen to Soul music are hypocrites and also suffer from an identity crisis of some sorts. The music they listent to was sung by people who needed an outlet and a form of expression to escape from the repressive nature of rascist twats in America. These people you speak of are not real Soul fans they are a waste of space.

[Guest Netspeaky]

Got to dissagree with the time scale also funk 69-74? never in a million years! Roger & the Gypsies - Pass the hatchet on severn b dates to around 66, Eldrige Holmes humpback 66 again, what about all the daptone realeses? far dates past 74

Irma Thomas ruler of my heart 1963, a heavy blues laden record no mistaking its pure funk!

1969-74 period was the main period for Funk (number of releases/hits), sure there's always fore runners, and Daptone release are a current throwback sound - sort of second coming (I own most of the Daptone releases by the way). Second comings are not usual in music, do-wop, R&R, Soul and Ska all went through this stage. Just waiting on the second coming of the 60's Motown Sound and 70's Philly, not that would be christmas.

[Guest Stuart T]

The music they listent to was sung by people who needed an outlet and a form of expression to escape from the repressive nature of rascist twats in America.

I thought that most of them did it to make a living? I wasn't aware, for instance, that Berry Gordy founded Motown on that basis. People seem to be dreamy romantics on the subject of soul music, the people concerned were largely looking to earn a crust, rarely did they consider themselves to be in a position to either change or escape something that they didn't like. And most of the records are about the most important musical topics of all, love, passion, desire, not 40 acres and a mule.

[Guest WPaulVanDyk]

yeah yeah yeah, baby's out of sight

out on the floor each night i am really moving

out on the floor each night i am really moving

the band is willing right i feel like grooving

the chicks are out of sight and i am grooving

the crowd is in tonight begging for more

well i get my kicks out on the floor

out on the floor each night i feel like singing

the beat is running right guitars are ringing

i am really on tonight and everything is swinging ohh

the room is packed up tight night at the door yeah yeah

so i get my out on the floor

yeah yeah yeah, baby's out of sight

when i am out of a floor

it makes me feel like a king

everybody here

don't you know what i mean

it makes me want to move

it makes me feel that groove

oh won't you twist and shout

oh maybe work it on out

that's the lyrics i post when i listen to the song correct me a word is wrong but whoever wrote the story thing does not know what he/she is talking about