Prices and Values of Music

[Motownsoulman]

I posted this on another thread and was quite correctly ticked off about doing so by some other members, to whom have my apologies, and not knowing how to move a post from one thread to another, i'll post it here.

Amid the obvious controversy in other posts on OVO nights, Bootlegs and all the apparent snobbery surrounding soul music, I felt compelled to post this.

The thing that really gets my goat is all these people saying such and such a record is worth this, or that. COBBLERS. A record, be it 7 inch, 10 inch or 12 inch, and for that matter, 8 track, cassettes and cd's are only worth what someone is prepared to pay for them, and nothing more.

Edited January 24, 2019 by MotownSoulMan
Added info

[Guest Steve C]

1 minute ago, MotownSoulMan said:

I posted this on another thread and was quite correctly ticked off about doing so by some other members, so not knowing how to move a post from one thread to another, i'll post it here.

Amid the obvious controversy in other posts on OVO nights, Bootlegs and all the apparent snobbery surrounding soul music, I felt compelled to post this.

The thing that really gets my goat is all these people saying such and such a record is worth this, or that. COBBLERS. A record, be it 7 inch, 10 inch or 12 inch, and for that matter, 8 track, cassettes and cd's are only worth what someone is prepared to pay for them, and nothing more.

Golly, this wouldn't happen to apply to houses as well would it?

Trust me on this, you will never go poor by overestimating the stupidity of your fellowman when it comes to matters of 'possession and value'.

[Motownsoulman]

14 minutes ago, Steve C said:

Golly, this wouldn't happen to apply to houses as well would it?

Trust me on this, you will never go poor by overestimating the stupidity of your fellowman when it comes to matters of 'possession and value'.

It applies to everything in its truest meaning doesn't it?. It's only greed or demand that bangs up the price of everything. Your last sentence is quite correct.

[Guest BabyBoyAndMyLass]

29 minutes ago, MotownSoulMan said:

I posted this on another thread and was quite correctly ticked off about doing so by some other members, to whom have my apologies, and not knowing how to move a post from one thread to another, i'll post it here.

Amid the obvious controversy in other posts on OVO nights, Bootlegs and all the apparent snobbery surrounding soul music, I felt compelled to post this.

The thing that really gets my goat is all these people saying such and such a record is worth this, or that. COBBLERS. A record, be it 7 inch, 10 inch or 12 inch, and for that matter, 8 track, cassettes and cd's are only worth what someone is prepared to pay for them, and nothing more.

I'm sure that when prices are discussed it is with reference to what people who want them are paying, how else is anything valued?

[Motownsoulman]

13 minutes ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

I'm sure that when prices are discussed it is with reference to what people who want them are paying, how else is anything valued?

It's the supply and demand thing isn't it. It's quite bonkers of course though. I read a thread on here, on this very forum I think, with a Marvin Gaye/Tammi Terrell 7 inch up for sale on some site for 200+ Sovs with offers at the time touching 70 sovs. It's lunacy. A friend of mine has 5 copies of that song, all originals, all purchased in the last 5 years or so, and she never paid more than a few sovs for any of them. It's madness, but if people are prepared to pay those prices, then good luck to them.

Edited January 24, 2019 by MotownSoulMan
Corrected my abysmal spelling

[Motownsoulman]

Just as a matter of interest, and because it's appropriate to this post being in a separate thread now, would someone be so kind as to tell me how "misplaced" posts can be moved to a separate thread, or indeed forum?.

[Guest BabyBoyAndMyLass]

5 minutes ago, MotownSoulMan said:

Just as a matter of interest, and because it's appropriate to this post being in a separate thread now, would someone be so kind as to tell me how "misplaced" posts can be moved to a separate thread, or indeed forum?.

You flag it up, state the reason for the flag and the moderator will move it for you, or will move it of their own volition if deemed necessary, in this case they or rather me, didn't think it was needed. Your post was fine where it was, just a little bit of it was very slightly off-topic, not an issue though in the context. Creating another thread specifically about prices/valuation is fine, relax!

[Winsford Soul]

52 minutes ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

I'm sure that when prices are discussed it is with reference to what people who want them are paying, how else is anything valued?

Partly.  When someone with more money than sense who probably doesn't get out to venues or can be bothered looking buys a record for X amount because they want it doesn't necessarily mean that is the now going rate. Or when known big ticket collectors want a record the price suddenly increases by hundreds of pounds

Minefield 

Steve 

Edited January 24, 2019 by Winsford Soul

[Bbrich]

As far as auction records are concerned a starting point could be look at the price the 3rd highest bidder was prepared to pay. The highest bidder has now got the record and is out of the game next time one is up for sale. The second highest bidder would only have to just beat the 3rd highest bidder if it came up again.....   (of course wont really work like this cos time moves on, diff people show an interest, condition etc..)

Edited January 24, 2019 by bbrich
missed

[Guest Steve C]

Ok, we are now in my particular area of expertise as it were so I will take a moment to list some of the variables that impinge on this issue of 'pricing'. This is applicable whether you talking about records ,or indeed any other asset.

1. Prices already paid are one factor, but just one and not necessarily of primary importance depending on point 2, For example many people show the recency affect (a psychological bias) by looking at the price of a share a month ago as being some determinant as to whether the share today is either cheap or expensive. It is neither when taken in isolation like that. It's just a behavioural nuance of being human.

2.Expectations of where the price will be in the future. See below for more explanations.

3.The number of units (of whatever) that are available for sale in the market.

4. The number of people who may be in the market at that moment who wish to buy.

3 and 4 can be summarised as generally describing the liquidity of the market at any given moment.

5.General surrounding economic circumstances dictated usually by the cost of finance and the availability of credit. Sometimes these can very positive factors ,or thinking say 2008 quite negative in that they directly affect the liquidity of the market causing imbalances not just in the number of buyers or sellers, but also in the urgency with which these people may wish/need to act. This affects prices asked and offers bid, the difference commonly referred to as the 'spread'. The wider the spread the more illiquid a market is.

6. Market confidence which is not unrelated to point 2 ,but may be wider in terms of effect. For example, the specific market may have been impacted badly by some form of 'criminal' action related to that sale item ,or more widely the class of such items etc. More broadly still the economic outlook is ether very positive, negative ,or neutral. For example, at this time property in London has been severely impacted by issues some of which are specific to that class of asset in that location and indeed by more generic issues which are affecting similar assets nationally.

Don't wish to go war and peace duration so I will leave it there.

[Guest BabyBoyAndMyLass]

24 minutes ago, Winsford Soul said:

Partly.  When someone with more money than sense who probably doesn't get out to venues or can be bothered looking buys a record for X amount because they want it doesn't necessarily mean that is the now going rate. Or when known big ticket collectors want a record the price suddenly increases by hundreds of pounds

Minefield 

Steve 

Thing with that Steve is that once that price is paid the precedent is set and then future vendors want the same money for theirs'. These are the factors that influence collector markets whatever the commodity in question may be.

[Motownsoulman]

5 hours ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

You flag it up, state the reason for the flag and the moderator will move it for you, or will move it of their own volition if deemed necessary, in this case they or rather me, didn't think it was needed. Your post was fine where it was, just a little bit of it was very slightly off-topic, not an issue though in the context. Creating another thread specifically about prices/valuation is fine, relax!

Cheers. Thanks for that info.

[Chalky]

It is far from cobblers. It is certainly far to simplistic to say something is only worth what someone is willing to pay.  When you have been around records for any length of time you learn how comon or rare something is, what they are selling for and indeed if they are selling, demand or no demand.  Most records have a sales history and that is often the basis for a price.  Most records are offered for a price, not what someone is willing to pay.

last two or three weeks I’ve sold about 30, all priced on recent history and only one did I barter.

If you don’t meet a value, you invariably don’t get the record.

[Motownsoulman]

I can't argue the post above of Chalky's because technically he's correct in many ways, but then I could say that those folks that have bought records from him, in the past two or three weeks simply agree that the price paid, is a fair price for that particular item. I don't disagree in anyway, that previous prices paid for any given record on any given day, are a good guideline to what that record should be priced at now, but it still boils down to what I said originally, that a record, or anything else you care to name, is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. Personally, I don't sell anything. I buy items purely because I want them for myself. I have some records that have cost from a few old penny's to a couple of sovs, and you could offer me any figure you like, but I still wouldn't sell you them, whether they turn out to be worth next to nothing, or a mint. To me, my music is my memories, and no price can be put on that.

[Guest]

You are right when you say that a record is worth what people are willing to pay for it.  But that goes for everything thats for sale in a market place.

So if you know that 50 people will pay over £200 for a certain record, that record must be worth at least £200. So thats about what it's worth!

Just about everything in life for sale, is worth/value what people are willing to pay to get it!

I don't really know what point you are making?

 

 

 

[Motownsoulman]

9 minutes ago, solidsoul said:

You are right when you say that a record is worth what people are willing to pay for it.  But that goes for everything thats for sale in a market place.

So if you know that 50 people will pay over £200 for a certain record, that record must be worth at least £200. So thats about what it's worth!

Just about everything in life for sale, is worth/value what people are willing to pay to get it!

I don't really know what point you are making?

 

 

 

No disrespect, but you start off saying one thing and then another, but that's by the by cuz i've done the same thing myself.

My argument is this, and you set a good example of just what my problem is. Just because 50 people are willing to pay 200 sovs for something, doesn't mean that's that particular items value. There could be another 50 people that think it's only worth 2 sovs. So what does that do for estimating the true value of it?. Does that mean it's worth the average price of the item, ie 101 sovs?. No, it's true value is what you can get for it, Now I know you guys and gals that buy and sell are far more familiar with prices than I am, and I know to some of you, rarity, originality and condition play a huge part in what you buy and sell for. Let's take that Frank Wilson 7 inch that Kenny sold a while back. John Manship back in 2009 when it was sold said it could make $100,000. So that would make it that records value by all accounts, however, it fetched about a third of that in the end. Incidentally, I own a copy of TMG 1170 somewhere, which is the same song, with the same flip, and I paid under 5 sovs for it. Who got the better deal?.

[Frankie Crocker]

Never trust a person who knows the price of everything but the value of nothing. Some records are priceless. Others may be affordable but unavailable. Market value is a fickle concept - the perfect market comprised of a large number of buyers and sellers does not exist in the world of record dealing. The laws of supply and demand do not apply to trading rare records when often demand becomes more feverish as the price rises and nobody bothers with low-end items. For any given record, there are range of prices depending on condition, status of seller, potential availability, current local demand, currency, type of sale and other variables too. Bottom line is, a record sells for what someone is prepared to pay for it whilst its ‘worth’ is subjective. Bet you loads of us have paid too much money for records that we have enjoyed enormously at first but now realise the purchase was rather hasty...or...like the sound more and more with the passing of time and are glad we shelled out sooner rather than later.

[Guest Gogs]

2 hours ago, MotownSoulMan said:

No disrespect, but you start off saying one thing and then another, but that's by the by cuz i've done the same thing myself.

My argument is this, and you set a good example of just what my problem is. Just because 50 people are willing to pay 200 sovs for something, doesn't mean that's that particular items value. There could be another 50 people that think it's only worth 2 sovs. So what does that do for estimating the true value of it?. Does that mean it's worth the average price of the item, ie 101 sovs?. No, it's true value is what you can get for it, Now I know you guys and gals that buy and sell are far more familiar with prices than I am, and I know to some of you, rarity, originality and condition play a huge part in what you buy and sell for. Let's take that Frank Wilson 7 inch that Kenny sold a while back. John Manship back in 2009 when it was sold said it could make $100,000. So that would make it that records value by all accounts, however, it fetched about a third of that in the end. Incidentally, I own a copy of TMG 1170 somewhere, which is the same song, with the same flip, and I paid under 5 sovs for it. Who got the better deal?.

This is easily solved, if you list something for sale at a minimum price and it doesn't sell then you have over-estimated.

[Motownsoulman]

1 hour ago, gogs said:

This is easily solved, if you list something for sale at a minimum price and it doesn't sell then you have over-estimated.

Well that's true enough.

[Chalky]

9 hours ago, MotownSoulMan said:

No disrespect, but you start off saying one thing and then another, but that's by the by cuz i've done the same thing myself.

My argument is this, and you set a good example of just what my problem is. Just because 50 people are willing to pay 200 sovs for something, doesn't mean that's that particular items value. There could be another 50 people that think it's only worth 2 sovs. So what does that do for estimating the true value of it?. Does that mean it's worth the average price of the item, ie 101 sovs?. No, it's true value is what you can get for it, Now I know you guys and gals that buy and sell are far more familiar with prices than I am, and I know to some of you, rarity, originality and condition play a huge part in what you buy and sell for. Let's take that Frank Wilson 7 inch that Kenny sold a while back. John Manship back in 2009 when it was sold said it could make $100,000. So that would make it that records value by all accounts, however, it fetched about a third of that in the end. Incidentally, I own a copy of TMG 1170 somewhere, which is the same song, with the same flip, and I paid under 5 sovs for it. Who got the better deal?.

It might be worth 2 sovs to some, but that is different to a value which is what those who were willing to pay 200 for is. Worth and value are two different things. 

Reading your post above you are contradicting yourself within  a couple of sentences  

As for Frank Wilson, it doesn’t come up for sale, if you are auctioning such a rare item you are going to talk it up, no different to any auctioneer but the market decides the value.

The £100.000 quoted wasn’t a value either, it was a maybe, an estimation.  I doubt John would value it at a 6 figure price now?  Saying that the test pressing wasn’t far off  

 

Edited January 25, 2019 by chalky

[Motownsoulman]

There, you said it yourself, the market decides the value. Call me a bit thick, chalky, but explain to me how the value of an item is different to what it's worth, because to me, and I'm sure many others, that is a contradiction in terms.

[Soulfusion]

Hi Mike

I think there is a difference between the value of something and its worth. Both are subjective and earlier in the discussion I think you answered the question yourself earlier in this discussion. 

The value of something often will have an emotional attachment to it that its worth will not. So a record heard years ago that remind an individual of a specific time and place can be priceless. Nevertheless for someone that hears that same record for the first time and want it will likely just pay the current going price.

Steve