OVO

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Amsterdam Russ said:

 

 

Yes, you do. As a universally acknowledged and appreciated art form, prints are highly collectable. Galleries all over the world show them off, as do museums.

Indeed, given @Joey's interest in Miro, he might well be interested in this exhibition of the artist's prints, which currently taking place in Paris.

 

Personally, I've always found Miro a bit "dark'. Or at least that's the way his work has always left me feeling. I do have quite a few of his "nations" prints, but would rather keep them in storage than on my walls. I'd feel suicidal looking at the bloody things every day! My Steve Kaufman canvases on the other hand, always bring a smile to my face. And isn't that what art, and soul sounds, REALLY mean to a person? If they bring enjoyment, in whatever way, then what is to complain about?  There are times when I think that, along with the modern/contemporary art scene, the Northern scene has become something "not quite very nice". A world away from what it was, and what it could still be. 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, bbrich said:

Unless you can go on ebay and buy one of these prints for say £10 then although I know nothing about collecting paintings I dont think the analogy works. The bootlegs/re-issues being talked about being played are not some special kind of product they are mostly churned out in numbers and freely available to anyone to purchase (unfortunately as seen with recent case on this).

And this is why I first said that I thought the analogy wasn't quite the one to use. (Sorry Chris, not having a go  ). HOWEVER.... bootlegging has gone on forever in the art world., and sometimes on a near industrial scale Counterfeiting ring any bells? In fact, even the unofficial "Sunday B Morning" Warhol prints have been counterfeited. You used to see dozens for sale on eBay at any one time. So, even boots getting booted!

Still doesn't get away from the fact that its what's in the grooves that counts though, does it? Lol.

[Chalky]

If you wanna play boots just advertise the fact younare either djing or promoting with them, people then have a choice to support or not. You will then see how many care or not. 

Edited January 24, 2019 by chalky

[KevH]

If you're going to dj, your integrity level is up to you. Don't pretend you're an OVO dj if you're not, you'll be found out by people who care. If you play boots, then stick your hand up if it doesn't bother you. DJ at venues that don't care. If I get a whiff there's boots being played at a supposedly OVO venue I've gone to, I won't go again, plenty of venues to choose from, that's my choice.

[skiinspain]

Yep well said totally agree it's simple really. Be honest. Don't try to be what you're not. 

[Colnago]

21 minutes ago, chalky said:

If you wanna play boots just advertise the fact younare either djing or promoting with them, people then have a choice to support or not. You will then see how many care or not. 

Precisely, funny how they don’t advertise “ no ovo cos I wasn’t interested enough to obtain them back in the day , or hang on to them when I did have them “ 

[Jez Jones]

11 minutes ago, KevH said:

If you're going to dj, your integrity level is up to you. Don't pretend you're an OVO dj if you're not, you'll be found out by people who care. If you play boots, then stick your hand up if it doesn't bother you. DJ at venues that don't care. If I get a whiff there's boots being played at a supposedly OVO venue I've gone to, I won't go again, plenty of venues to choose from, that's my choice.

Exactly mate...shame its come to this....but at least it differentiates....and the customer can make the choice

 

Customer Guarantee :

As you are aware..recent events have highlighted the illegal manufacture and distribution of 'bootleg' records We feel it incumbent upon us to offer you ..the customer ..our pledge

On the evening...if any of our Collector/Dj's are seen/heard to play bootleg records then we will unequivocally refund your entrance fee forthwith.

We feel strongly that you, the paying customer, can attend,enjoy and participate.. confident and safe in the knowledge that bootlegs will NOT be played

Thanks for your understanding in this matter. Enjoy !!

[Motownsoulman]

Personally speaking, if a night is advertised as Original Vinyl Only, then fair dues, it should be just that. However, I think snobbery has crept back into things again.

At the end of the day, it's the music, and not the format that makes for a good night out. You can bring out all the OVO stuff you like, but if no one gets up on the floor, you've not only wasted your time, but the time of everyone that's paid to be there. I've been to a lot of nights where next to nothing fitted into the OVO bracket.

Some of the best nights of all that I have attended played next to no vinyl at all, including one in one or two that have been allowed to run way over the time limits. Now you can slate me for this view all you like, but the simple fact of the matter is that it's the songs you play that make a good night out.

That said, if you advertise it as being of one particular format, then you should be prepared to keep your word.

Just a few words on other things that cropped up in another post. (1) Handbags. It's been going on for a long long time, and certainly for as long as an old codger like me can remember. (2) Drinks. If it wasn't for the sad w*nkers that originally brought drugs onto the scene way back in the day, maybe this problem wouldn't even be an issue. I fully sympathise with those, especially younger ladies, that won't leave their drinks unattended, even if that means dancing with them. (3) Tolerance of others that don't share your view. What happened to the "Each To Their Own" mentality?. A night out isn't purely about you, or you and your little clique, it's about everyone. There's no need to get monk on, or throw a wobbly. A kind word in their shell like is almost always all that's required to defuse the situation, as was also mention in that other post. 

I totally and wholeheartedly agree with the initiator of this thread, bilkoba

Oh and one other thing, and I think I have said this in another post before now. I don't, and won't condone the use of bootlegs (and I do mean bootlegs, not legit pressings, re-issues or copies), and copies of cds or mp3s etc etc that you don't physically own a hard copy of. All that does is rob the copyright owner of revenue. 

Edited January 24, 2019 by MotownSoulMan
Spelling corrected

[Shinehead]

1 minute ago, MotownSoulMan said:

 

I totally and wholeheartedly agree with the initiator of this thread, bilkoba

Probably the reason you and bilboka do not seem to get the ovo thing is you have never been involved in the Northern scene in any form or fashion.

You seem to think that because venues operate a ovo policy only, that people just go for that reason and not the music played, the policy goes hand in hand with the music .

Great music played on the original format.   

[Jez Jones]

15 minutes ago, MotownSoulMan said:

Personally speaking, if a night is advertised as Original Vinyl Only, then fair dues, it should be just that. However, I think snobbery has crept back into things again.

At the end of the day, it's the music, and not the format that makes for a good night out. You can bring out all the OVO stuff you like, but if no one gets up on the floor, you've not only wasted your time, but the time of everyone that's paid to be there. I've been to a lot of nights where next to nothing fitted into the OVO bracket.

Some of the best nights of all that I have attended played next to no vinyl at all, including one in one or two that have been allowed to run way over the time limits. Now you can slate me for this view all you like, but the simple fact of the matter is that it's the songs you play that make a good night out.

That said, if you advertise it as being of one particular format, then you should be prepared to keep your word.

Just a few words on other things that cropped up in another post. (1) Handbags. It's been going on for a long long time, and certainly for as long as an old codger like me can remember. (2) Drinks. If it wasn't for the sad w*nkers that originally brought drugs onto the scene way back in the day, maybe this problem wouldn't even be an issue. I fully sympathise with those, especially younger ladies, that won't leave their drinks unattended, even if that means dancing with them. (3) Tolerance of others that don't share your view. What happened to the "Each To Their Own" mentality?. A night out isn't purely about you, or you and your little clique, it's about everyone. There's no need to get monk on, or throw a wobbly. A kind word in their shell like is almost always all that's required to defuse the situation, as was also mention in that other post. 

I totally and wholeheartedly agree with the initiator of this thread, bilkoba

Oh and one other thing, and I think I have said this in another post before now. I don't, and won't condone the use of bootlegs (and I do mean bootlegs, not legit pressings, re-issues or copies), and copies of cds or mp3s etc etc that you don't physically own a hard copy of. All that does is rob the copyright owner of revenue. 

You can bring out all the OVO stuff you like, but if no one gets up on the floor, 

 

Could you please tell me how playing OVO would stop people from getting on the dancefloor...are you confusing OVO with only being rare and underplayed ??...genuine question

[Motownsoulman]

3 minutes ago, shinehead said:

Probably the reason you and bilboka do not seem to get the ovo thing is you have never been involved in the Northern scene in any form or fashion.

You seem to think that because venues operate a ovo policy only, that people just go for that reason and not the music played, the policy goes hand in hand with the music .

Great music played on the original format.   

I've been on the soul music scene since the 6ts and have been listening to the music that led to the advent of soul since birth, so I would say I do know my stuff where this post is concerned.

Secondly and finally, I can see things from both sides of the fence. Something that obviously many others can't, or simply won't accept.

[Motownsoulman]

15 minutes ago, jez jones said:

You can bring out all the OVO stuff you like, but if no one gets up on the floor, 

 

Could you please tell me how playing OVO would stop people from getting on the dancefloor...are you confusing OVO with only being rare and underplayed ??...genuine question

Without going into detail, I've been to a few vinyl only nights, the one springing to mind just now being Ilkeston and one or two of the jocks were playing utter crap (my own opinion) and in I think 3 hours, the dance floor was full twice, The Vibrations and Duke Browner if I remember correctly. 

Also if you read my post correctly, you'll see I don't have a problem with OVO nights, other than if advertised as so, they should be just that.

In answer to your other question regarding confusion, the answer is no. Just cuz a tune is on vinyl, doesn't mean it's rare in anyway whatsoever.

Edited January 24, 2019 by MotownSoulMan
Corrected my abysmal spelling

[Soulsides]

43 minutes ago, MotownSoulMan said:

totally and wholeheartedly agree with the initiator of this thread, bilkoba

15 hours ago, bilkoba said:

dj at soul nights in the south and people don’t give a toss whether you are playing an original issue, re-issue or god forbid a ‘boot’ 

You say that you wholeheartedly agree with the O.P. of this thread (who advocates the playing of bootleg recordings)

43 minutes ago, MotownSoulMan said:

Oh and one other thing, and I think I have said this in another post before now. I don't, and won't condone the use of bootlegs (and I do mean bootlegs)

I think you may have  just contradicted yourself there,somewhat..

Edited January 24, 2019 by Soulsides

[Kenb]

I keep seeing references to 'full dance floors'. When did rammed dance floors equate to anything? I've never been a DJ, no intention of starting...but i've always been a dancer since '69, and still quite happy to dance on my own at venues where the DJ plays my thing. I choose to go to venues that play original, rare and underplayed.

[Motownsoulman]

2 minutes ago, Soulsides said:

You say that you wholeheartedly agree with the O.P. of this thread (who condones the playing of bootleg recordings)

I think you may have  just contradicted yourself there,somewhat..

If you read the last paragraph correctly instead of just flashing through it, because you disagree, you'll see the word LEGIT in there. I bet there isn't many, if anyone else on here that can 100% honestly say that they own a hard copy of EVERY SINGLE SONG they have as an mp3 or have copied to a homemade compilation for their own use only.

[Motownsoulman]

1 minute ago, Kenb said:

I keep seeing references to 'full dance floors'. When did rammed dance floors equate to anything? I've never been a DJ, no intention of starting...but i've always been a dancer since '69, and still quite happy to dance on my own at venues where the DJ plays my thing. I choose to go to venues that play original, rare and underplayed.

And full props to you. Like I said, EACH TO THEIR OWN, but respect others views too.

[Motownsoulman]

Just on another note, the thing that really gets my goat is all these people saying such and such a record is worth this, or that. COBBLERS. A record, be it 7 inch, 10 inch or 12 inch, and for that matter, 8 track, cassettes and cd's are only worth what someone is prepared to pay for them, and nothing more.

[Jez Jones]

6 minutes ago, MotownSoulMan said:

Just on another note, the thing that really gets my goat is all these people saying such and such a record is worth this, or that. COBBLERS. A record, be it 7 inch, 10 inch or 12 inch, and for that matter, 8 track, cassettes and cd's are only worth what someone is prepared to pay for them, and nothing more.

Yep..like second hand cars....BUT correct me if I'm wrong but I think you may have got the wrong end of the stick on this thread..you seem to equate OVO with the cost of a record...that really isn't the point..maybe start another thread on the cost of records..am sure it would provoke some debate ..

[Soulsides]

7 minutes ago, MotownSoulMan said:

If you read the last paragraph correctly instead of just flashing through it, because you disagree, you'll see the word LEGIT in there. 

Well, I did read everything you posted correctly without flashing through.

You stated that you wholeheartedly agree with the O.P. of the thread (who also advocates the use of bootlegs) 

You then went on to state that you don't condone the playing of bootlegs, so errrm, how can you possibly say that you wholeheartedly agree with the views of the O.P. when you quite obviously don't ??

It doesn't make any sense.

[Tattoodave]

Thinking about the analogy of art prints, surely a limited edition print is the same at an issue copy of a record, in that the original being a one off is the master tape or acetate, a signed copy would be similar to a demo, so the analogy doesn't quite work, or at least for me.

Do you know what gets my goat?  The troll under the bridge.

[Winsford Soul]

21 minutes ago, MotownSoulMan said:

If you read the last paragraph correctly instead of just flashing through it, because you disagree, you'll see the word LEGIT in there. I bet there isn't many, if anyone else on here that can 100% honestly say that they own a hard copy of EVERY SINGLE SONG they have as an mp3 or have copied to a homemade compilation for their own use 

What's that got to do with the original post. ? Or have I missed the point somewhere 

Steve 

[Soul16]

OVO events should not need to be 'advertised' as has been suggested, it should be assumed - just like it used to be.

Bootleg events however, should be clearly advertised as such, so that the discerning paying customer can see that the DJ/Promoter supports the guys that have recently been imprisoned and everything else illegal that goes with it.

 

[Guest BabyBoyAndMyLass]

I notice that in these discussions down the years the talk is always in terms of 'Boots' or OVO.

What about legit second presses, Kents, various other legitimate legal reissues?

Some of us class any record that isn't a first issue as a 'boot' which I feel is unfair when it's a legal reissue.

[Kenb]

44 minutes ago, MotownSoulMan said:

And full props to you. Like I said, EACH TO THEIR OWN, but respect others views too.

you are unlikely to find any of my 400+ post replies that don't do that.

[Soul16]

4 minutes ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

I notice that in these discussions down the years the talk is always in terms of 'Boots' or OVO.

What about legit second presses, Kents, various other legitimate legal reissues?

Some of us class any record that isn't a first issue as a 'boot' which I feel is unfair when it's a legal reissue.

You're muddying the waters! 

I think the OP may have been attempting to wind us all up a bit to be honest. This subject never fails to raise blood pressure.

[Winsford Soul]

3 minutes ago, Soul16 said:

You're muddying the waters! 

I think the OP may have been attempting to wind us all up a bit to be honest. This subject never fails to raise blood pressure.

Never raised mine. 120 over 80.  perfect 

Steve 

[manus]

I agree that back in the day even the top DJs would on occasions play boots or emi discs. I remember one well known DJ/promoter whose box was about two thirds emis and he was able to play all the latest top sounds which in fairness did attract punters. But if we are talking about it being the " sound" that counts then the sound quality was in the main really poor when playing the boots/emis and we may have put up with it when we were young but I wouldn't want to do that now. I was at a venue a about 5 years back and even without going up to the decks the sound quality ( or lack of it) of many of the records told you they were boots . Personally that would stop me attending an event as I want to hear the records clearly and I prefer to go to events that play original records. I would have no problem with someone playing legitimate reissues or previously unissued records as long as they were of a good quality and this detail was included in the promotion of the event but as I say my preference is for events that play original releases.

[KevH]

1 hour ago, MotownSoulMan said:

Just on another note, the thing that really gets my goat is all these people saying such and such a record is worth this, or that. COBBLERS. A record, be it 7 inch, 10 inch or 12 inch, and for that matter, 8 track, cassettes and cd's are only worth what someone is prepared to pay for them, and nothing more.

Whole different subject.

[Bbrich]

I reckon the 'its in the groove that counts argument" is more about 'dj's' who want to play 'big records' they dont have, than any concern for the dancers. If any dancer is that keen to hear a particular tune (however rare the originals are) then there will be someone on here who can point them to a venue/dj where the original can be heard.  If you are talking about punters who are only prepared to go to the 'local' do then I suspect they wont walk out in a strop just because they weren't allowed to hear a tomangoes or sam williams boot for example. They will be just as happy with say a kim weston/helpless or any other of thousands of cheap well known records. Who knows you could even try a cheap but underplayed record on them.........   

[KevH]

39 minutes ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

I notice that in these discussions down the years the talk is always in terms of 'Boots' or OVO.

What about legit second presses, Kents, various other legitimate legal reissues?

Some of us class any record that isn't a first issue as a 'boot' which I feel is unfair when it's a legal reissue.

Again, you could play legal re-issues out. But maybe careful where. If there's a real one in the house, be prepared for it to be launched across the dancefloor. Wouldn't be the first time.!

[Guest BabyBoyAndMyLass]

I'm glad really that this has come up again.

There are a lot of new members both here on SS and on the scene itself that are interested in the OVO concept and perhaps a little unsure what it means in practise. Any that feel it's been done to death can avoid it or not bother commenting, but for those who want it I think it's a good discussion, certainly one that isn't going to go away!

My own views on the subject don't matter anymore, I do support reissues for reasons I've stated in the past, but the wider scene does love and respect the OVO policy, and when at events I can live without hearing Frank Wilson, Don Gardner, Curtis Lee etc... All my DJ and promoter mates are all OVO and I get that, as long as the buying public who don't DJ aren't put off supporting/buying legal reissues like Kent etc, which they do, witness the popularity of the recent Kent issues of Darrow Fletcher, I'm happy with the whole royalties issue.

Plus it can't be argued against the fact that when it comes to the OVOs that aren't the huge money in-demanders, it has lead to a lot of diversity and new records being fielded at events! Now is the golden age of the £5 cheapy OVO spin, some of which can be great records!

[KevH]

6 minutes ago, bbrich said:

I reckon the 'its in the groove that counts argument" is more about 'dj's' who want to play 'big records' they dont have, than any concern for the dancers. If any dancer is that keen to hear a particular tune (however rare the originals are) then there will be someone on here who can point them to a venue/dj where the original can be heard.  If you are talking about punters who are only prepared to go to the 'local' do then I suspect they wont walk out in a strop just because they weren't allowed to hear a tomangoes or sam williams boot for example. They will be just as happy with say a kim weston/helpless or any other of thousands of cheap well known records. Who knows you could even try a cheap but underplayed record on them.........   

Agree.

Travelling a few hours to hear rarity's, and imagination......who lives in a house like this LOL. ME.

[Chalky]

7 minutes ago, bbrich said:

I reckon the 'its in the groove that counts argument" is more about 'dj's' who want to play 'big records' they dont have, than any concern for the dancers. If any dancer is that keen to hear a particular tune (however rare the originals are) then there will be someone on here who can point them to a venue/dj where the original can be heard.  If you are talking about punters who are only prepared to go to the 'local' do then I suspect they wont walk out in a strop just because they weren't allowed to hear a tomangoes or sam williams boot for example. They will be just as happy with say a kim weston/helpless or any other of thousands of cheap well known records. Who knows you could even try a cheap but underplayed record on them.........   

When Berry Gordy said its whats in the grooves, I don’t think he meant the grooves of a bootleg. He wasn’t best pleased with his label being booted. 

[Bbrich]

5 minutes ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

legal reissues like Kent etc, which they do, witness the popularity of the recent Kent issues of Darrow Fletcher,

correct me if im wrong but I thought the Darrow Fletcher on kent was a first issue of previously unreleased tracks i.e does fit the ovo bill.

[Chalky]

5 minutes ago, bbrich said:

correct me if im wrong but I thought the Darrow Fletcher on kent was a first issue of previously unreleased tracks i.e does fit the ovo bill.

Nothing wrong with legal reissues although I wouldn’t play one thats had an original release. Unreleased ones I have no qualms about playing 

Edited January 24, 2019 by chalky

[Guest BabyBoyAndMyLass]

3 minutes ago, bbrich said:

correct me if im wrong but I thought the Darrow Fletcher on kent was a first issue of previously unreleased tracks i.e does fit the ovo bill.

Yes of course, just used that example to illustrate the fact that sales were healthy.

 

[Tomangoes]

Why insist OVO?

Because it's what sorts out the real collectors from the fakes. Elitism? Every time, and that was one of the attractions. The urge to be better than the rest, in every way.

Back in the day, some folks got their breeks made at Burton/Jackson etc. Unique designs not available on the high street.

Others got spencers. Poor people in reality or those not willing to pick spuds all summer to get some made to measures...

Today...

Kids who wear 3 stripe addidas look down on kids who wear 2 stripe asda or tesco.

It mattered then about originality, and for sure it matters now....

Don't look for respect understanding or agreement from ' the elites' if you play boots and Wear a tee shirt saying you went to Wigan Casino, when in reality you only watched a programme about it.

Blunt but true.

Ed

[Guest Spain pete]

I love music and mostly this week I've stayed at home and listened to solar radio  , there's some fantastic underplayed rare soulful music played  night and day  but I'm buggered if l know if its being played oovo? And l don't care 

[Motownsoulman]

1 hour ago, jez jones said:

Yep..like second hand cars....BUT correct me if I'm wrong but I think you may have got the wrong end of the stick on this thread..you seem to equate OVO with the cost of a record...that really isn't the point..maybe start another thread on the cost of records..am sure it would provoke some debate ..

Of course you are correct. Looking back, I should have posted it elsewhere. My apologies.

[Motownsoulman]

1 hour ago, Soulsides said:

Well, I did read everything you posted correctly without flashing through.

You stated that you wholeheartedly agree with the O.P. of the thread (who also advocates the use of bootlegs) 

You then went on to state that you don't condone the playing of bootlegs, so errrm, how can you possibly say that you wholeheartedly agree with the views of the O.P. when you quite obviously don't ??

It doesn't make any sense.

My bad then and I stand corrected, and I apologise. Having read back my post does give the wrong impression, and then contradicts at the last paragraph.

[Motownsoulman]

1 hour ago, Winsford Soul said:

What's that got to do with the original post. ? Or have I missed the point somewhere 

Steve 

The chap who posted the original post condoned the use of bootlegs. I don't condone any illicit songs in any form. Legit stuff, ie not originals, but authorised issues, mp3s etc, copied from ones own hard copies though, I do say is fine. The post was written in a hurry and I apologise for any misunderstanding.

[Motownsoulman]

1 hour ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

I notice that in these discussions down the years the talk is always in terms of 'Boots' or OVO.

What about legit second presses, Kents, various other legitimate legal reissues?

Some of us class any record that isn't a first issue as a 'boot' which I feel is unfair when it's a legal reissue.

Agreed. 100% correct, in both the common sense use of the word, and the legal sense of the word.

[Motownsoulman]

1 hour ago, Kenb said:

you are unlikely to find any of my 400+ post replies that don't do that.

Ha ha. Not a problem whatsoever.

[Motownsoulman]

45 minutes ago, KevH said:

Whole different subject.

Yup. Was posted in a hurry and should have been a separate topic. My apologies.

[Jez Jones]

15 minutes ago, MotownSoulMan said:

Of course you are correct. Looking back, I should have posted it elsewhere. My apologies.

no probs mate

[Geeselad]

4 hours ago, Joey said:

I'm sorry, but you are so wrong! Yes, the original canvases are displayed in many of the worlds leading galleries, but many minor galleries do display prints, some of which are incredibly rare and expensive. The Warhol "Sunday B Morning" prints immediately spring to mind. I have even loaned prints of my own to local galleries for exhibitions. The point I was making was that its not the best analogy!

Oh, and if he were still alive, I'd lay good money on Warhol actually celebrating his works being "booted". 

Maybe we should open a new tread if we're going to debate the vagaries of the modern and/or contemporary art scene? I'd have LOTS to say about that charlatan Hirst !!!!!!

Andy Warhol was primarly a print maker! and did very little painting, so pretty much all of the warhol's in Galleries are prints, LOL.

[KevH]

30 minutes ago, MotownSoulMan said:

Yup. Was posted in a hurry and should have been a separate topic. My apologies.

No need to apologise.!

[Motownsoulman]

5 minutes ago, KevH said:

No need to apologise.!

Yes there is. All i've ever done, work wise, for 37 years was being a member of HMs Armed Forces, and when in doubt, I shoot first and ask questions later. It's a mentality that is harder to get out of ones swede than you can ever imagine, however, I do try. 

Now, I goofed up, and was quite correctly picked up on that by a few members. On reviewing what I posted, I agree with the ticking off I got, both in my post to the originator of this thread, bilkoba, and in changing the subject, by posting something of no relevance at all. I hope you understand that when I am wrong, and especially when I am picked up on it, and proven to be in the wrong, it wouldn't be me to not apologise. Thanks in advance.

[Jez Jones]

13 minutes ago, MotownSoulMan said:

Yes there is. All i've ever done, work wise, for 37 years was being a member of HMs Armed Forces, and when in doubt, I shoot first and ask questions later. It's a mentality that is harder to get out of ones swede than you can ever imagine, however, I do try. 

Now, I goofed up, and was quite correctly picked up on that by a few members. On reviewing what I posted, I agree with the ticking off I got, both in my post to the originator of this thread, bilkoba, and in changing the subject, by posting something of no relevance at all. I hope you understand that when I am wrong, and especially when I am picked up on it, and proven to be in the wrong, it wouldn't be me to not apologise. Thanks in advance.

A man of integrity...good on ya sir !

[Motownsoulman]

Just now, jez jones said:

A man of integrity...good on ya sir !

You're welcome Sir.