pva glue record upgrade or scrapping

[Geobuch335]

Hi there, after reading about alleged upgrades of records after getting a pva glue "clean" I decided to carry out an attempt on one of my car boot discs.

found it took hours for the glue to dry and when it had depth of glue wasn't even and some clear and some still white.removal was nor a success as I reckon scraping with my nails to try and get glue off caused more damage than was there at start. checked pva used and its supposed to be created for decking so may not be same as used in the reports iv read previously.Obviously the loss of a side of a record for my granddaughter to play with isn't the cause of sleep loss but I cant help wondering if pva cleaning exists or is an urban myth..?

[Bbrich]

I have tried it on some cheap/knackered records and yes it 'can' improve the sound somewhat (wont help with styrene burn) .. But it seems to leave a milky sort of colouring on the vinyl - visible on the deadwax under a strong light. You do have to wait until it has all gone clear before removing and yes be careful not to scratch the playing surface, you can put a small tab (cardboard) under the glue edge to help with removal. Having said all that I wouldn't do this on any records you value and other methods may achieve the same improvement...

[Amsterdam Russ]

Wood glue needs to be left for around 24hrs, or until the glue turns transparent. Also, the glue needs to be spread over the playing surface thickly as per this pic, which I took 7-8 years back.

There are some old threads on Soul Source that cover the subject of wood glue. Here's one of them:

 

[Mick Holdsworth]

I've also used this method many times and once you get the hang of it (ie. leave for 24, or even 48 hours, and make sure the covering is 100 percent on the play area - into the runout but not up to the label, and right up to the outer edge), then it works great.

It should look like the picture from Russ. Solid white / cream when it is wet, and going clear when it begins to set. See about 3 o'clock on the One-Derful record. If, after a long time you still see a single spec of white, don't touch it, just wait until it is fully clear. When done, gently tease off a start on the outer edge and it should peel off. If it flakes and little bits stay on the record, just recoat it and the flakes will bond with the fresh glue.

Remember, this is a deep clean method, it won't repair damaged records.

Cheers
Mick

Edited December 4, 2018 by Mick Holdsworth

[Geobuch335]

Thanks for the replies, will read previous posts on the subject  and keep up the lotto buying....

Geo

[Guest]

This seems a rather arduous task when there are risk free options taking moments which should be tried first. I've tested many products over the years and have stuck with these since the early 90's:

For light cleaning, window cleaning fluid which contains no harmful ingredient. The standard supermarket product that costs about what I imagine would be £1.30 now and comes in a clear plastic container with a trigger used to spray it on. Gently wipe around the record with a soft cloth such as an old t-shirt. Dries in seconds, can play the record wet, no issues. Currently using the Sainsburys version. Forget Mr Muscle, used it in past and it was so shite I returned it for refund.

For heavier cleaning the product I swear by is Pledge Multisurface Cleaner, might be called Clean and Dust if shop has slightly older stock. I advise you use the classic scent, not the perfumed ones as I found risk of headaches with those. Spray it on, gently wipe around the record with a soft cloth such as an old t-shirt. It will release almost all dirt from its lying position within a few mins. Always a pleasure looking at stylus after playing such and seeing the job it's done. After using this product I usually go over it again with window cleaner fluid to neutralise the Pledge. If using polylined inners you will need to do this otherwise the Pledge will sweat in the poly, won't cause damage but there will just be streaks of the residue on disc when you take it out.

Don't waste money on VPI cleaning machine, it's unnecessary, I have one and never use it anymore.

Martin

 

Edited December 6, 2018 by Guest

[Cover-up]

On 06/12/2018 at 00:30, Martin S said:

For light cleaning, window cleaning fluid which contains no harmful ingredient. 

 

Really? I would assume this is filled with nasty chemicals you want nowhere near your vinyl...

[Stompingsevens]

Never play records 'wet' with any sort of cleaning fluids. This can interfere with the contact and adhesive between the stylus and cantilever, it can have seriously adverse affects.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, cover-up said:

Really? I would assume this is filled with nasty chemicals you want nowhere near your vinyl...

Do you think I spent half an hour making the posting because I had nothing better to do with my time and wanted readers to damage their records? You made a wrong assumption without any relevant experience of the issue. 

Edited December 8, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Stompingsevens said:

Never play records 'wet' with any sort of cleaning fluids. This can interfere with the contact and adhesive between the stylus and cantilever, it can have seriously adverse affects.

Please enlighten us with your expert evidence on the subject including the precise details of the adverse affects you refer to.

[Stompingsevens]

57 minutes ago, Martin S said:

Please enlighten us with your expert evidence on the subject including the precise details of the adverse affects you refer to.

Cleaning fluids 'clean' and can help to break the contact between the stylus and the cantilever which are glued together - yes they are glued! If you have a crappy system you might not hear the difference but if you are using a decent system, stylus, cartridge you certainly will!

 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Stompingsevens said:

Cleaning fluids 'clean' and can help to break the contact between the stylus and the cantilever which are glued together - yes they are glued! If you have a crappy system you might not hear the difference but if you are using a decent system, stylus, cartridge you certainly will!

Technics 1210's, Stanton 500's and 6800's, various amplifiers both mobile and domestic inc NAD 3240, decent enough systems for you?

No issues whatsoever in over 25 years of using the stated products.

Your first posting was an assumption, is it likely therefore that anyone is going to trust what you then state in a second posting to be an indisputable fact?

You're talking rubbish.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Guest

[Tlscapital]

Like for everything in the analog phono world, the universal absolute better is something that can't exist. Different stickers with different glues will require different techniques of removal and so different scruffs on record surfaces will work better mechanically (cellular friction, embedding, scratching) and/or with the help of different solutions (alcohol, acid, vinyl...).

So different solutions for different problems. But what is crucial in any cleaning processed clean is to have as minimum residue left over from the scruffs (wipe, hoover...) and or dried up liquid components. Like tar in tap water, window cleaning shine, soap grease... This means that to clean the records does take time, understanding and some gear and equipment.

With time I have learn to use different techniques according to what I think will be the most effective. I'd love to add to my cleaning gear an ultra-sonic (60Hz) bath, a hoover but without the room to have a dedicated table to have more than few towels, cotton balls and a spray of distilled water cut with isopropyl and a can of PVA glue, I do clean my records with those 2 mainly.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, tlscapital said:

Like for everything in the analog phono world, the universal absolute better is something that can't exist. Different stickers with different glues will require different techniques of removal and so different scruffs on record surfaces will work better mechanically (cellular friction, embedding, scratching) and/or with the help of different solutions (alcohol, acid, vinyl...).

So different solutions for different problems. But what is crucial in any cleaning processed clean is to have as minimum residue left over from the scruffs (wipe, hoover...) and or dried up liquid components. Like tar in tap water, window cleaning shine, soap grease... This means that to clean the records does take time, understanding and some gear and equipment.

With time I have learn to use different techniques according to what I think will be the most effective. I'd love to add to my cleaning gear an ultra-sonic (60Hz) bath, a hoover but without the room to have a dedicated table to have more than few towels, cotton balls and a spray of distilled water cut with isopropyl and a can of PVA glue, I do clean my records with those 2 mainly.

An excellent posting clearly from someone who has experience in the field.

You nailed some of the most important factors: Taking time, understanding how different compounds, fluids, and surfaces react when they interact. The most commendable point raised was different stickers with different glues. I'll add to that in saying that even assessing the surface to which stickers are adhered to is paramount, a sticker on a laminated sleeve versus a typical rough surfaced cardboard sleeve, the type that RCA and 20th Century LP's were issued with in the 1970's, cannot be underestimated.

Making the correct judgement before attempting a repair, whether to take a chance or is it likely further damage will be caused? Even minor issues such as re-gluing an LP sleeve in which the inner folds are laminated, they need to be gently rubbed down with light glass paper and any existing hardened glue removed if possible, in order to get a key to the surface before gluing. By the way, I don't touch isopropyl when it comes to cleaning discs after bad experiences many years ago as if it's not diluted sufficiently it can destroy a record instantly. There are enough risk free options available.

Some more tools and materials to add to your list that are on my work surface here: A damp flannel, pieces of old cut down tshirts to use as small cloths, cotton buds, kitchen roll, tweezers, snap off bladed knives, light glass paper/fine sandpaper, nail files, clamps and a suitable buffer for securing sleeve joints, white spirit.

There is nothing random to maintaining and restoring records and their sleeves, it is highly skilled and requires considerable practice and patience. It therefore goes without saying that no posting on a forum about the subject should be random either. Thanks

Edit: I forget to mention talcum powder for neutralising any excess adhesive on white areas such as inner sleeves.

Edited December 9, 2018 by Guest

[Stompingsevens]

2 hours ago, Martin S said:

Technics 1210's, Stanton 500's and 6800's, various amplifiers both mobile and domestic inc NAD 3240, decent enough systems for you?

No issues whatsoever in over 25 years of using the stated products.

Your first posting was an assumption, is it likely therefore that anyone is going to trust what you then state in a second posting to be an indisputable fact?

You're talking rubbish.

As I stated, the Technics are IMHO 'lower end' turntables but with regard to my original point about not playing records when wet with cleaning fluids please don't take my word for it, just google high end cartridge care and see what you find. For instance - 

Clean Your Stylus Needle Using Appropriate Methods

Clean your stylus tip regularly with a good stylus cleaning fluid and brush. How often, depends on how clean your records are. There are a number of proprietary fluids on the market but steer well clear of anything containing isopropanol alcohol, as this can slowly dissolve the glue holding the stylus needle into the cantilever (depending on the brand of cartridge). Be careful to use a fairly flexible brush and always pull the brush along the stylus in the same direction the record travels. Also use fluid sparingly as it can degrade the rubber suspension inside the cartridge if applied too liberally.

This was the first one that came up, there are many others

You seem both angry and to be showing a certain lack of humility, I only commented that its a bad idea to play records when they are wet with cleaning fluid. It's common sense really.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Stompingsevens said:

As I stated, the Technics are IMHO 'lower end' turntables but with regard to my original point about not playing records when wet with cleaning fluids please don't take my word for it, just google high end cartridge care and see what you find. For instance - 

Clean Your Stylus Needle Using Appropriate Methods

Clean your stylus tip regularly with a good stylus cleaning fluid and brush. How often, depends on how clean your records are. There are a number of proprietary fluids on the market but steer well clear of anything containing isopropanol alcohol, as this can slowly dissolve the glue holding the stylus needle into the cantilever (depending on the brand of cartridge). Be careful to use a fairly flexible brush and always pull the brush along the stylus in the same direction the record travels. Also use fluid sparingly as it can degrade the rubber suspension inside the cartridge if applied too liberally.

This was the first one that came up, there are many others

You seem both angry and to be showing a certain lack of humility, I only commented that its a bad idea to play records when they are wet with cleaning fluid. It's common sense really.

Your comment regarding Technics TT being "lower end" is true, they are lower end but only on the basis of price range. Have you noticed how there seems to have been a lot of highly successful DJ's and hip hop artists in particular that have been quite happy to make a successful career from using them. I wouldn't consider Jazzy Jeff for example, to be a lower end DJ, would you? 

Let's get back to the most important point, which was the type of fluids I recommended. I did so because I have proven those two were safe, yet you've now posted a paragraph of text that you found on Google which makes no reference to either of those products. In fact it's only reference is to one of the most dangerous fluids you can get near anything that is plastic, but neither of the products I recommended contain isopropanol, I have just checked their ingredients on the containers. 

In summary, you posted comments that did not refer to the products which I recommended, therefore it should come as no surprise to you that your comments have been treated accordingly, as rubbish. 

 

Edited December 9, 2018 by Guest

[Soulsides]

7 hours ago, Stompingsevens said:

As I stated, the Technics are IMHO 'lower end' turntables

Yeah of course they are..that's why they were aimed squarely at the audiophile demographic when the MK 1 was originally released in 1972.

 

What absolute nonsense.

Apologies,I have no desire to derail the thread but the misconceptions surrounding Technics decks are astonishing at times.. take a  look at the new 1200 GAE or MK5G models in action for example then come back and talk about 'lower end turntables'.

 

Edited December 9, 2018 by Soulsides

[Stompingsevens]

32 minutes ago, Soulsides said:

Yeah of course they are..that's why they were aimed squarely at the audiophile demographic when the MK 1 was originally released in 1972.

 

What absolute nonsense.

Apologies,I have no desire to derail the thread but the misconceptions surrounding Technics decks are astonishing at times.. take a  look at the new 1200 GAE or MK5G models in action for example then come back and talk about 'lower end turntables'.

 

Buy a (second hand?) Lynn deck and stick an SME arm on it and get your stylus and cartridge custom built by 'Expert Stylus' then whack all of that through a flat audiolab pre- amp and then stick that through a Jardis valve power amplifier and then through some old Tannoy 15" dual concentric speakers and you will hear details on your records you have never heard before. It constantly surprises me how much record collectors spend on records but then buy low end systems. 99% of the music I listen to is Mono and it is so important with playback to get a Mono cartridge/ stylus. Just because things are 'popular' doesn't mean they are good - do you watch Eastenders or Coronation Street?, very popular but perhaps lacking in quality!

[Soulsides]

1 hour ago, Stompingsevens said:

Buy a (second hand?) Lynn deck and stick an SME arm on it and get your stylus and cartridge custom built by 'Expert Stylus

Spend nearly 6 grand on a pair of 1200 GAE's and you wont need too hehe..a well known DJ mate of mine who's also a DMC World Champion recently took delivery of a pair and they are seriously bloody impressive to say the least. 

However, if you're a lesser mortal you could also stick a Rega or Origin Live tonearm onto a 1200 or a 1210 and achieve incredible results and have a deck that sounds way beyond its price range.I own a 1200 LTD though, with the gold plated hardware which is  number #77 of those units manufactured so I'm obviously reluctant to install that particular modification on this turntable but I know lots of DJ's and Hip Hop producers who have on their standard issue models. 

Follow this path and you'll have a Technics to die for....Yes, it really is that good. Clean, open, tight, punchy and very musical.

The Technics can be transformed to equal or better the performance of much more expensive decks with the help of outstanding upgrades that are available including the power supply, (Advanced or Ultra versions) to smooth the motors torque or you could install a  powerful Toroid transformer which can be added to deliver significantly increased dynamics and bass weight.

Again,not what id exactly call 'lower end turntables'.

1 hour ago, Stompingsevens said:

Just because things are 'popular' doesn't mean they are good - do you watch Eastenders or Coronation Street?

Erm,no,no I don't thankfully!. 

Edited December 9, 2018 by Soulsides

[Tlscapital]

16 minutes ago, Stompingsevens said:

Buy a (second hand?) Lynn deck and stick an SME arm on it and get your stylus and cartridge custom built by 'Expert Stylus' then whack all of that through a flat audiolab pre- amp and then stick that through a Jardis valve power amplifier and then through some old Tannoy 15" dual concentric speakers and you will hear details on your records you have never heard before. It constantly surprises me how much record collectors spend on records but then buy low end systems. 99% of the music I listen to is Mono and it is so important with playback to get a Mono cartridge/ stylus. Just because things are 'popular' doesn't mean they are good - do you watch Eastenders or Coronation Street?, very popular but perhaps lacking in quality!

This is one common heated debate subject. The SL-1200 pros have so rarely acceptation in understanding other peoples dislike and critics on those turntables. And I had mine bought second hand one for 10 years before swapping for a Stanton STR8-100 when it failed down. Both are on many aspects off the same league. Sonically the Thorens tonearm are likely less "not so good". So having play my records home on those for 20 years on I believe I am eligible to attest how these turntable sound signature is. More so with the same mid-high end amp and preamp that I still run now.

And I was indeed rather skeptical or confused when I was explained some as to why these turntables would not benefit my vintage 7" playback and better choice of cartridges. And this is where my whole approach to it changed. Never fully satisfied with the traditional 'moving magnet' cartridges I got to hear, even of the higher kind, I understood that a dramatical change had to come into game; a change that would imply another kind of tonearm able to handle such a cartridge. I was lend a vintage Thorens belt drive turntable with suspended sub chassis and an SME3009 tonearm. 

Believe me, I had my prejudices on such wobbly and loose bearings turntable coming from the sturdy turntable and rigid tonearm beliefs in understanding of how it should be. So at first I had to over come my prejudices (esthetic as superstitious) to set such a device in place of my Stanton turntable. But once all set with the first groove resolution the speakers spoke suddenly with depth I never heard before with a much more relax feel. Long story short; I kept this vintage Thorens turntable and SME and I totally DIY tweaked them to upgrade their respective performance and looks.

Friends coming to my place admit it does sound good and some are even amaze of how it does sound now. Phono playback ear use (the brain can be rigid or more flexible), preference (subjective) and specificity (no one is equal or even there also) come into the game. Beside that, I have come to understand how a turntable build and design can play a significative role in it's "sonic signature". Those direct drive turntables need to have such damping that it will tend to muffle the sound. And this is evident once the whole of your phono chain is of the "clear" and "neutral" kind. Which I have.

So are we drifting from the PVA glue OP ? Not really. Because as well as to have the records looking good as they can, the needle drop is the crucial bit of to. With more "clarity" in the sound signal as I now have, the dirty and damaged groove do tend to be more "audible" as well. So I have learn to clean more than ever my records before, during and after playback. So I decide to buy me one of those PVA glue jerrican and try that method as well. Understanding that some records will require different processing of cleaning, I need to have as much tools under the hand to get optimistic results.

The clean stylus is very important. And here depending on what kind of scruffs it is dirty with, one should also have different tools under the hand to clean it. I understand to play wet records allows the stylus in the groove to "surf" on it instead of in it. But this makes the groove retrieval by the stylus only poorer. Less distortions and defaults altogether with less details dishing out shorter high frequencies and muddied low ones. It's a trick, never a benefit. It's an old DJ (bootlegger style) from the 78rpm's shellack era/days that remained a while with the Jamaicans for example...

So for the stylus one should have a 'magic eraser' pad, a brush and either the prefab stylus $olution or isopropyl. A drop of isopropyl on the magic eraser gently twisted on the stylus axial few seconds won't allow the isopropyl to heat/melt the stylus glue on the cantilever. A clean stylus running in a clean groove is what I want as much as possible. On an adequate phono gear as well ! And it took me time (decades), money (gear do come to a cost), brain juice (researches and testings) and acceptance of not being in the "right" when not (superstition) to achieve to do justice to my records. 

Understanding that we want to enjoy our music out of our beloved records is definitely what is most important at first. But with time to get the best out of them in the most caring and regarding ways takes more than a pocket full of money to walk into a shop to buy the "best" gear. There's much more than that to it. We play mainly vintage MONO American 7" that are nothing like STEREO LP. There is no "better universal" phono gear out there. And it is always a matter of compromise as to gain some here there's some to be lost there. And it starts at the stylus cut and ends at the speakers. 

[Guest]

That is one very interesting and detailed reply TLS, thanks

[Stompingsevens]

Agreed, very interesting. I would strongly suggest that if you haven't already, the next step would be to invest in Mono cartridge/ stylus. The 'Expert Stylus glider' is great value for money. I would also recommend the Loricraft record cleaning machine as it uses a vacuum to suck the dirty cleaning fluid out of the grooves and leaves the surface of the record entirely dry. One can also 'leave a 45 to soak' whilst not damaging the labels. I bought my unit 20+ years ago and it only just gave up the ghost. To my surprise 'Terry' at Loricraft is still going and I shipped it back for a full service, two weeks later my machine was returned in perfect working order for a very reasonable price indeed. Loricraft also 're-vamp' old Garrard 401 turntables which I use for my 78's (also with an SME arm and cartridge wired for Mono). These turntables are outstanding and can be used for all speeds. I use a Lynn deck (SME arm, Mono cartridge) for my 45's just because I got one cheap so many years ago and have never heard anything better. But, of course, it's all subjective!

[Tlscapital]

All my apologies for this little adrift from OP ! My phono set-up consist globally of a Denon DL-102 (1962 FM broadcast) cartridge (MONO MC high output cartridge that is STEREO tolerant) whose suspension is of the very low compliant kind (no manufacturer's tech specs given but 5 or less) with conical nude stylus 0.7 (large) in an Ortofon SPU bakelite 'G' type headshell on a SME3009 'Improved' S II tonearm converted by me into a super heavy mass tonearm. Tweaked Thorens ex TD145 now hybrid turntable powered with a Phoenix Eng. 'Falcon' PSU controlled by it's 'RoadRunner' tachometer. Preamp adjustable 'Modulis' from Isem set to crazy loads, gains and impedances for my "exotic" cartridge. Amp is now 'Exampli', soon to be dethroned by an 'Integral 2', both from Etalon. Speakers are Leak 'Sandwich' 2 ways (15 Ohms) early models recap by me and not by the book (book = in parallel - me = in series) to give the tweeter more presence (clarity) ! Speakers are anchored with 40 Kilos of marble and concrete tiles on top of each of them ! And all my wirings and cables are just decent enough.

Edited December 9, 2018 by tlscapital

[Stompingsevens]

Nice............!

[Guest]

How is your relationship with the neighbours since purchasing all of this equipment? LOL

[Tlscapital]

Just now, Martin S said:

How is your relationship with the neighbours since purchasing all of this equipment? LOL

Mind you my actual amp is only 40 Watts but since it's so "clear" and "dynamic" sounding, it's sounds at least double that. And my vintage speakers aimed originally to be played with low powered tube/valve amp (15 Ohms). But surprisingly they are a fantastic match with my circuit amp even more so after my "sacrilege" recap. Now I like loud and the neighbors are very tolerant with me and my "nice" music.

With such playback "clarity" definition from groove pick-up to the speakers output, power is way less of importance to hear the music with "presence". With the general modern 'receivers' that too many use for phono power amplifier as well that are designed to treat with more compliance the digital signals, the analog signal is  dished out like "lazy", "muffled" and "dull". To try to compensate one pushes up the volume...

Preamp and amp sound signature and specs are too often overlook in the record collectors world in comparison with "horse power"... Now I am awaiting the delivery of a long time want to upgrade my actual 18 years old 'Exampli' amp with an opportunity. A second hand of a good conditioned 'Integral 2' that holds trice the power at 120 Watts ! That since I am afraid that this actual 40 Watts won't suffice in any bigger environement.

Still living in the work field of my home to be, my actual phono set-up and most of my records are set-up in an office (not the best acoustic environment) and so I am impatient to move in (in a matter of months I hope) on my new home with it's dedicated music basement room. 45 meters square fully isolated with wall and ceiling panels. Carpet (recycled from stand's exhibitions) glued to the ceiling and walls and a linoleum floor.

Dimmed led lightning behind old glass fiber panels on the walls. Panels that are still currently covering the yard (soon open aired again garden as it was 50 years ago), this basement music room will be pleasant to spend time in with continuous mechanical ventilation, toilet facilities and fridges as it is already properly isolated acoustically to play music loud anytime of the day and night. Phew lot of time, money and hard work though !

[Guest Shufflin]

I'm enjoying this audiophile thread, good stuff. Really interesting. Spent today thinking about cable upgrades and so on, best speakers for soul music, etc.

Personally speaking I love my SL1210's, never realised before that I was just 'budget' guy

[Soulsides]

8 minutes ago, shufflin said:

I'm enjoying this audiophile thread, good stuff. Really interesting. 

Hehe- I actually started another topic on this so the OP wouldn't be offended that their thread had been inadvertently highjacked !

It's here if anyone wants to chime in.

 

[Lionelonthevinyl]

Ok.....pva glue has worked well on some of my records, its been mentioned on the earlier posts but now we are going very, very off topic. Please don't fall out guys & girls and take offence at people's advice etc, it does my head in..........we are into the same thing, please let's tolerate others opinions......kind regards...Rob

[Geobuch335]

So glad I asked for advice

typical soul source veers off to facinating advice and gives advice about equipment I can only drool about.

must be connected to how much time I enjoy “wasting,(my mrs)  on soul source.

geo

thanks to all who replied,it’s what makes soul source what it is..

 

Edited December 10, 2018 by geobuch335
Inability to spell

[Modularman]

.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Modularman

[Guest]

Going back to the subject of chemicals, there must be members from Middlesbrough on here with a wealth of experience to offer.

[Tlscapital]

15 hours ago, shufflin said:

I'm enjoying this audiophile thread, good stuff. Really interesting. Spent today thinking about cable upgrades and so on, best speakers for soul music, etc.

Personally speaking I love my SL1210's, never realised before that I was just 'budget' guy

Enjoy your SL-1200 turntable evidently. As I have had and I am sure many still do. That's alright . Only I have come to compare and tell the difference. Nothing wrong with your enjoyment, but coming to talk about it in comparison is bit like comparing any reissue with the real deal original (with scratches & Co.) 7"on a good "clear" phono system if you ever the chance... the GAP is huge ! But less "in your face" on the average muffled phono or DJ gear.

It's not so much on the budget (SL-1200 = cheap !?) but it's mainly about quality playback rendition. A turntable should have platter speed accuracy and stability. Direct drive turntable (with servo) have that more or less better than 'idlers' or 'belts'. True. Till they give in... For the rest, those SL-1200 & Co do always present a muffled "sound signature". Since those "better" direct drive have always to be well dampened in their chassis. And that does affect the sound !

For facts SL-1200 will have a different "sound signature" than (even) a new Thorens belt drive on a similar budget BTW. And a vintage second hand belt or idler turntable with a lot of evolutive potential will set you way better for lesser money at start. And likely more "intuitive" to fit according to your wants and needs if you are a bit of a tweaker. I have grown to be one. I was of the "plug & play" à la SL-1200 prior.

Those "vintage" tweak-able turntables are mostly of the belts or idlers drive (more complex; true) kind as they are more "friendly evolutive" than the commanded 'direct drives' as those require a PHD in electronics for fix if ever. And for the same bucks, you get much better results at the end of the line IMHO. Now on the worrying less kind of if any if that, if one wanna feel like a DJ home; stick to the SL-1200. Then you might need 2 and a mixer...

Not me definitely. Now some might tell you that it's not the turntable that does the sound but that it's the cartridge. Comparison shows it all ! But once again, it requires a developed and educated ear to music/sound. I love my music and it's not the scratches nor the "cheap" masterings at times that bothers me. But the bad playback out of the records that bothers me at times. So I set for the Right-Fi and not the Hi-Fi ! Money AND knowhow.

And there the cartridge choice is not to wonder. Not any tonearm can handle any cartridges mind you. And this is where the PICK is ! We talk about those mainly rare 45's that for most are cut MONO I believe. Then DO get a MONO cartridge for your MONO records in the first place and do them justice ! I went for a DL-102 that is compliant to STEREO for careless easy sake but with full playback pleasure and enough rendition both ways.

Speakers are another matter. If on the SOUL side, you want the 'voices' to be clear and 'upfront', meaning you want to have at least a 2-D effect or a 3-D out of your speakers, that is not achieved through the speakers as such necessary. Check your connections qualities and specs straight from your stylus read onto your cartridge, through your tonearm (+TURNTABLE), then preamp and/or power amp, cables and through your SPEAKERS'S tweeters. 

Voices are high frequencies (tweeter). Instruments mid and low ones (woofer + medium if ever) in the analog process. So there's not one way to achieve that but many. And one has to come to assemble that first (avoid muffle) in their gear set-up. One need to have balanced HIGHS (not saturating or too bright) to allow voices to come upfront and be present through the speakers. This requires a well balanced stylus pick-up and "clear" signal transmission follow-up from beginning through end.

It's all in the chain. This just goes to show how many factors are at game with those micro volts sent from the cartridge and "reasoning" with. On any phono stage this happens... What everybody wants is the avoid the BAD vibrations, the LOOPS and the LOSTS signal during the stylus in the groove pick up and transmission from the cartridge to the preamp and ending out of the speakers. I also need the good (necessary IMO) resonances transmissions.

Those SL-1200's don't allow that. OK, they are easy to adjust/set to DJ with (torque) and about carefree for tonearm (nothing great) settings, I agree. But never a best/first choice when it comes to quality playback. Even more if you're on a budget to plug-in better fitting cartridges to get the best out of your beloved 45's, there's better out there. For the 'rough & rumble' DJ thingy, they are the tank. At home, I only need the Cavalry !

Edited December 10, 2018 by tlscapital

[Stompingsevens]

On 09/12/2018 at 06:00, Martin S said:

Your comment regarding Technics TT being "lower end" is true, they are lower end but only on the basis of price range. Have you noticed how there seems to have been a lot of highly successful DJ's and hip hop artists in particular that have been quite happy to make a successful career from using them. I wouldn't consider Jazzy Jeff for example, to be a lower end DJ, would you? 

Let's get back to the most important point, which was the type of fluids I recommended. I did so because I have proven those two were safe, yet you've now posted a paragraph of text that you found on Google which makes no reference to either of those products. In fact it's only reference is to one of the most dangerous fluids you can get near anything that is plastic, but neither of the products I recommended contain isopropanol, I have just checked their ingredients on the containers. 

In summary, you posted comments that did not refer to the products which I recommended, therefore it should come as no surprise to you that your comments have been treated accordingly, as rubbish. 

 

Hi, You still seem very angry. I would not make assumptions about a DJs (or anyones) 'standing' by the equipment they use and nor should you. I was merely commenting that if you use low end equipment you are less likely to notice small differences in sound either negatively or positively.

I then suggested is that it is a bad idea for your cartridge/ stylus to play your records with ANY fluid. If you google any 'high end cartridge care' on-line I think you'll find that this is correct, including the piece I quoted, which states - 

Also use fluid sparingly as it can degrade the rubber suspension inside the cartridge if applied too liberally.

This was not just in regard to Alcohol but any fluid but you seemed to have skipped over that bit. I think a bit of humility might be helpful.

I am also sorry if I've insulted your selection of equipment but I always thought Mono records should be played with a Mono set up but again, it's all subjective - you might want to check this out on line too though as I think you'll find your listening pleasure greatly improved if you switch to a Mono cartridge/ stylus. I think you'll also find that 'Tiscapital' agrees on this point. 

Finally, don't be so angry - it's not healthy!

[Guest]

@Stumped Sevens:  Oh, you're back again, I thought you'd given up, I'd forgotten about you. 

You don't honestly think I'm going to bother reading any of whatever you've posted do you?

Surely there's more constructive things you could be doing?

Edited December 10, 2018 by Guest

[Tlscapital]

To idea clean the records is to have the best stylus groove retrieval. In order I hope to get the fullest of the record out of the speaker. Right ? Glue for instance won't do the best jobs for those NOS warehouse records with that layer of trans lucid grease all over the vinyl. Isopropyl cut 50/50 with distilled water on a cotton ball will do the best job. After a good dry cotton ball wipe.

Then if there's any particules left in the deeper groove the PVA glue should prove efficient enough then. Finally I'd love to have one of those ultra-high frequency (60 Hz) to clean deep in the (highs) groove. This apparently can prove very efficient to eliminate some highs distortions inherent to crease there. And so logically one would want the phono gear who'll put all those effort to worth.

There's not only one way to have the right phono set-up that meets one needs. We might have fantastic memories of nighters and instinctively want to relive/reproduce that home. On a budget I got my first 18" JBL Woofers mounted speakers with bullet cone tweeters. I was into the early (1959-1973) Jamaican music and I wanted BASS ! But to get bass and not "boomy" is another work...

And it took me time to get where I am with my phono set-up and I enjoy my playback music sessions more than ever. I wish I was born rich and would have access all that before. Only I am not and have to deal with all the other bits in life at the same time so it took me that long to finally hear my records as I was seeking and longing to hear them. I'd thought I'd share that as well.

To clean your records is not only to get rid of the odd Snap, Crackle and Pop but also for a cleaner and distortion less playback in the high frequencies. I remind you we are listening to soul voices and they are in the highs ! And to hear bass the tight ! To hear the Funk Brothers with such rendition is to do justice to James Jamerson instead of a mushy muddied sloppy boomy thing.

[Stompingsevens]

1 hour ago, Martin S said:

@Stumped Sevens:  Oh, you're back again, I thought you'd given up, I'd forgotten about you. 

You don't honestly think I'm going to bother reading any of whatever you've posted do you?

Surely there's more constructive things you could be doing?

Oh Dear, You're one of those.....................

[Source Team]

@Stompingsevens@Martin S

please take your current exchange to pms

 

[Guest BabyBoyAndMyLass]

Seconded! People will be reading this thread in the hope of learning something.

I don't want to see bickering and insults in a thread about cleaning records thanks. We might have different views and techniques we use but it isn't a thread where I expected argument!

[Mark S]

Anyway how about ultrasonic cleaning ? 

Personally prefer lukewarm water and washing up liquid .

[Tlscapital]

8 minutes ago, Mark S said:

Anyway how about ultrasonic cleaning ? 

Personally prefer lukewarm water and washing up liquid .

Well, like I said earlier on, once you manage to get a clear and neutral signal out of your speakers all for the best detailed, deep and dynamic sound qualities in sound, you also get more of the default. High note frequencies distortion (sibilance) are not necessary due to bad stylus raque angle or azimuth setting, nor it is necessary some inherent mastering flaws during recording or at the laquer cutting stage but also at times from scruffs.

Those nasty scruffs do require deeper cleaning and this is where those ultra sonic bath (60Hz since 40Hz won't go deep enough) can play a role in the cleaning process of some records. After that they still need to have that mechanical soft brush "scrap" since some of the scruffs are barely "detached" and not "peeled off" completely through that process. Then the record is still to be either vacuumed or cloth dried out.

[Dave West]

I clean records with a foam type cleaner used to clean clear visors and glasses. Obviously dosent scratch and shouldn't have any harmful chemicals as it goes next to your skin, and clean with a microfiber cloth 

[Guest BabyBoyAndMyLass]

I remember years ago leaving some unwanted records in one of my garages. They'd all gone hellish mouldy, I didn't want them but before I binned them I had a look through them and found a couple of Mirwoods ...

So I thought oh, I'll soak these in some nice warm soapy water they'll be good as new. When I removed them all was well until I dabbed them off with a towel, instantly all the writing came off both labels! I didn't really mind cause back then nobody wanted records even at 50p each. So I just wrote the titles back in with a Bic and threw them into a box with my other records that I planned to keep, I threw the rest away (loads of Punk originals and coloured vinyls, Sparks with the topless girl picture cover, Blue vinyl I think,, The Dickies on Banana Yellow vinyl, Plasmatics on Blood spattered vinyl). A few years later this box of Northern soul OV was propping up a stationary engine that had a wheel missing when I happened to find a wheel during a hunt in a scrapyard. 

I took the box away and played some, well I'd only written the titles wrong on the Mirwoods…

I tell people now they are very rare test pressings, invariably they say 'Oooh...' 

I also once gave away (to a stunning Gothic girl) a copy of 'Anarchy in the UK' on EMI because it was wrongly credited on the 'I wanna be me' side to producer Chris Thomas, being as I had two other copies from 76 correctly accredited. Collectors will know that Dave Goodman produced 'I wanna be me' and will also know that giving away the mis-credited one was a terrible mistake, that's a whole other story, albeit with a happyish ending.