Bootlegs ...What happens next..

[Jez Jones]

The recent Bootleg case has caused quite a stir on here and another social media platform. Staunch anti bootleg advocates have opinionated and a somewhat more 'forgiving' voice has also emerged as well.....that said....it may be of worth to look at the fallout from this......

Strong opinions have suggested a wider consequence of this will occur...in short the days of the bootleg spinning DJ are coming to an end..suggesting a precedent has been set with this case ...

The legalities of it..are way too complex to discuss here,i would assume..BUT it does raise some interesting questions

Moving forward...

Will promoters take a more critical look at what DJ's they book in the future. in an effort to provide a bootleg free event..???

Will the paying public themselves 'vote ' with their feet and head towards the bootleg free type of events ???

How will the paying customers be reassured that they are attending a bootleg free event ?

OR.....Does it really matter as we move into 2019 and the ever increasing popularity 'Northern Soul' (and any links to it) currently enjoys ???

AND...is this just a current whingeing 'fest' that will go away in a few days and the status quo, that currently prevails, will continue ??

A common and catchy strap line has come to the fore..'It's what's in the groove that counts'.....BUT is that REALLY all that counts ???

It would be interesting to get a few promoters to put forward their views as well....

 

 

 

 

 

[Soulboyrecords]

There is a big difference between owning the odd bootleg vs making and distributing them ... this will blow over and nothing will change IMHO

[Guest Shufflin]

maybe OVO needs a re-think - maybe we should have LV0  (Licenced Vinyl Only), the OVO obsession has caused this to some extent??

Collectors will always want the OVO, but DJ's are there to entertain, it's too bloody restricting no other scene is like this

Edited December 3, 2018 by Shufflin

[Winsford Soul]

As a ex promoter, DJ and collector I've got all the bases covered 

Promoter. I was brought up in the belief that the nighter scene was and still should be original vinyl only and that was the policy at Winsford.  You have to trust the people that you book to have the same integrity as yourself because you can't stand next to them whilst they play there set. 

DJ. I was in the fortunate enough position to be able too afford most of the records that I have wanted which enabled me to be able too play original vinyl only but that to me is a unwritten law so even if I had boots of the real big ticket tunes I wouldn't have played them out anywhere.  

Collector.  As above fortunate enough to be able to afford them and having enough friends who recognised my tastes in music to put me onto many records before they became popular even found a few myself. If I couldn't afford or justify them I simply didn't buy them end of.

Steve 

[Guest BabyBoyAndMyLass]

I'm not getting involved with the discussion, my views are well known here on it, that is I do not agree with illegal bootlegs and carvers at all.

I do not agree with OVO events because they rule out legitimate reissues that often are of financial benefit to the artists and writers, often as is the case with Kent a new deal is done that far better caters for the artist and or writers or in the case of those passed on, their estate.

Can I ask that we do differentiate correctly between reissues and boots, as some folks do group them together.

So having said all that I'll just leave this here, it isn't my words or my view, it's just of interest to this particular discussion, can't actually remember where/whom it came from:

 

[Ian Stacey]

47 minutes ago, Winsford Soul said:

As a ex promoter, DJ and collector I've got all the bases covered 

Promoter. I was brought up in the belief that the nighter scene was and still should be original vinyl only and that was the policy at Winsford.  You have to trust the people that you book to have the same integrity as yourself because you can't stand next to them whilst they play there set. 

DJ. I was in the fortunate enough position to be able too afford most of the records that I have wanted which enabled me to be able too play original vinyl only but that to me is a unwritten law so even if I had boots of the real big ticket tunes I wouldn't have played them out anywhere.  

Collector.  As above fortunate enough to be able to afford them and having enough friends who recognised my tastes in music to put me onto many records before they became popular even found a few myself. If I couldn't afford or justify them I simply didn't buy them end of.

Steve 

interesting comments   

[Guest Shufflin]

just to clarify, I collect rare/not so rare soul records and spend a lot of my hard earned on them, in addition to what I spend on technics kit etc, I've a decent collection, but I don't expect to go to a NS/Modern soul event where only millionare collectors can be the DJ - not gonna name names but some "DJ's" at big events have got bugger all skill/personality on a mic, some can't 'blend' records imo

so any millionaire can DJ then? anyone who buys a rare collection (not naming names again) can be a rare DJ getting bookings?

what a load of BS (no ambition to DJ btw, left that behind donkeys ago)

[Guest Spain pete]

Boots are wrong   but for f#cks sake its MUSIC not a fecking religious sect 

[Jez Jones]

3 minutes ago, Spain pete said:

Boots are wrong   but for f#cks sake its MUSIC not a fecking religious sect 

hahaha..have you not heard..its a 'faith' and a way of life !! 

[Ian Stacey]

4 minutes ago, Spain pete said:

Boots are wrong   but for f#cks sake its MUSIC not a fecking religious sect 

 

Just now, jez jones said:

hahaha..have you not heard..its a 'faith' and a way of life !! 

it is a religion you just not a believer any more lost soul rebel

[Kegsy]

2 hours ago, jez jones said:

Strong opinions have suggested a wider consequence of this will occur...in short the days of the bootleg spinning DJ are coming to an end..suggesting a precedent has been set with this case ...

3 proper nights per week then  That should stop the endless "too many events threads"on here which is a good thing IMHO.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Kegsy

[Guest Spain pete]

10 minutes ago, IAN STACEY said:

 

it is a religion you just not a believer any more lost soul rebel

I'm a believer \ idris Muhammad  or Lamont Dozier \ you made me a believer  take your pick  and their not booted 

[Ian Stacey]

1 minute ago, Spain pete said:

I'm a believer \ idris Muhammad  or Lamont Dozier \ you made me a believer  take your pick  and their not booted 

 

1 minute ago, Spain pete said:

I'm a believer \ idris Muhammad  or Lamont Dozier \ you made me a believer  take your pick  and their not booted 

take your pick .then

[Chalky]

Who are these bootleg spinning djs? I’ve asked numerous times on various platfirms and got two names both West Midlands promoters/Djs.   Many spout iff about them yet none have the balls to name the Djs or theboromoters that allow the playing of them.

Nothing will change with this cohrt case.  Ebay etc are full of them, the boit selkers/dealers haven’t sh*t themselves and go e into hiding, they bkatantly carry on.  Ebay couldn’t give a fig, they make a fortune out of it.  You can make and good guess by the figures given in the case. 

[Winsford Soul]

48 minutes ago, shufflin said:

just to clarify, I collect rare/not so rare soul records and spend a lot of my hard earned on them, in addition to what I spend on technics kit etc, I've a decent collection, but I don't expect to go to a NS/Modern soul event where only millionare collectors can be the DJ - not gonna name names but some "DJ's" at big events have got bugger all skill/personality on a mic, some can't 'blend' records imo

so any millionaire can DJ then? anyone who buys a rare collection (not naming names again) can be a rare DJ getting bookings?

what a load of BS (no ambition to DJ btw, left that behind donkeys ago)

That's so very true. I've  actually seen some collections in DJ boxes that could buy you a very nice detached house if they sold them but they couldn't get the records to flow or blend together wether that was just that particular night I don't know

 You also don't need to be a millionaire to play a decent set, play from your heart not your wallet.  

[Ian Stacey]

2 minutes ago, chalky said:

Who are these bootleg spinning djs? I’ve asked numerous times on various platfirms and got two names both West Midlands promoters/Djs.   Many spout iff about them yet none have the balls to name the Djs or theboromoters that allow the playing of them.

Nothing will change with this cohrt case.  Ebay etc are full of them, the boit selkers/dealers haven’t sh*t themselves and go e into hiding, they bkatantly carry on.  Ebay couldn’t give a fig, they make a fortune out of it.  You can make and good guess by the figures given in the case. 

 

1 minute ago, Winsford Soul said:

That's so very true. I've  actually seen some collections in DJ boxes that could buy you a very nice detached house if they sold them but they couldn't get the records to flow or blend together wether that was just that particular night I don't know

 You also don't need to be a millionaire to play a decent set, play from your heart not your wallet.  

all my sets from the heart then. lol

[Len]

2 minutes ago, Winsford Soul said:

That's so very true. I've  actually seen some collections in DJ boxes that could buy you a very nice detached house if they sold them but they couldn't get the records to flow or blend together wether that was just that particular night I don't know

It was 'that particular night' - Sorry about that 

Len 

[Ian Stacey]

5 minutes ago, chalky said:

Who are these bootleg spinning djs? I’ve asked numerous times on various platfirms and got two names both West Midlands promoters/Djs.   Many spout iff about them yet none have the balls to name the Djs or theboromoters that allow the playing of them.

Nothing will change with this cohrt case.  Ebay etc are full of them, the boit selkers/dealers haven’t sh*t themselves and go e into hiding, they bkatantly carry on.  Ebay couldn’t give a fig, they make a fortune out of it.  You can make and good guess by the figures given in the case. 

put there names up then chalky lead by example .

[Chalky]

Just now, IAN STACEY said:

put there names up then chalky lead by example .

I can’t remember there names, honestly.  If I can find them I will, it was a couple of years ago on facebook. Maybe one of the West Midland lot can remind me and I’ll post the names! Same for anyone else. 

[Ian Stacey]

2 minutes ago, chalky said:

I can’t remember there names, honestly.  If I can find them I will, it was a couple of years ago on facebook. Maybe one of the West Midland lot can remind me and I’ll post the names! Same for anyone else. 

good lad look forward to reading about them .

[Len]

I'm not so sure that this wash of boot leg playing DJs exist - Maybe there's some in back of a pub type dos here and there.

I dunno, maybe I'm wrong.

Len 

[Guest Sliced Tomanogoe]

Really interesting, emotive topic!

My 2 pence (if it's worth as much as that!?)

No event should be mis-advertised, if it's 'rare northern OVO' then so it should be, if its 'motown MP3 Monday Madness' then so it is, the punter shouldn't moan if the event is what it said on the tin.

That being said, as a collector I would know deep down that the freshly cut boot sat on the shelf in the presence of original royalty would eat away at me like the runt of the litter and therefore I would only be cheating myself, morally.

On the flip side, if I were to DJ and had a treasured hefty valued original that I wanted to preserve and so played a reissue once in a while - would that upset me? Not at all.

Im not rich nor experienced enough (mid 30's) to be established as either of the above (the nipper comes first right now) but I am old enough to value the prestige and majesty of what is soul and rare soul alike. 

Would I love every pub, bar, coffee shop, building I enter to play my favourite records on original vinyl like a Detroit truman show? Hell yes, but I don't frown if the format isn't to my best wishes, I just set my own expectations and appreciate it for what it is.

Some of my favourite tracks have been shown to me by friends and soul strangers playing me a music file on their phone and saying 'ere, 'av a listen to this beauty...'

[Chalky]

5 minutes ago, IAN STACEY said:

good lad look forward to reading about them .

One of them had a middle nickname, that I can remember

[Winsford Soul]

I personally tend to go nighters so would expect to hear original vinyl but that's only because of my own beliefs and expectations.  On the same token I went to a local soul night last month with no expectations as to the format because of the circumstances that I attended so imagine my surprise when I heard one of the hardest 70,s records to obtain on a 7" single. Gloria Scott.  Too much love making.  Casablanca.  

[Bbrich]

18 hours ago, shufflin said:

Collectors will always want the OVO, but DJ's are there to entertain, it's too bloody restricting no other scene is like this

I dont see how it can be 'restricting for the scene' there are plenty of dj's, with plenty of ovo to cover all types of events (top100/500/underplayed etc...).  (& if not, which i'm pretty sure is not the case, then perhaps this would help solve the problem of too many events).

It may however be 'too restricting' for an individual that wants to play big tunes that they dont have.......

Edited December 4, 2018 by bbrich
missed a bit

[Soulfusion]

Reading a lot of the threads on this forum there appears to be a lot of passion displayed whenever the subject of original vinyl only events and wannabe DJ's crops up and there seems to be a link between the two. Did OVO come about because of the number of bootleg 7"s being played on the scene or to protect the scene from other formats (CD, mp3, download) being played?

Records that have not been produced legally should not have a place on the scene and clearly in today's world it is easy to legally get hold of 'rare' soul that is properly licensed from copyright owners with royalties being paid to the correct people (good?) but, as a consequence, allows everyone and their Nan, in theory, to do a DJ set (bad?). However, simply having deep pockets to buy original vinyl does not automatically make you an effective DJ whereas barring people who may have the necessary DJ skills but not the financial fire power to purchase 'rare' original vinyl is maybe preventing the scene to evolve.

There must be a place on the scene for legal reissues if a vinyl only policy is to be maintained if only to get rid of bootleg copies.        

[Geeselad]

Have to say I can't it changing a thing, too many couldn't care a less, the're in the majority, those who do are not. The ethics of the scene have been exchanged for a kiss me quick hat, to cover the bald plate"s. 

[Chalky]

5 hours ago, bbrich said:

I dont see how it can be 'restricting for the scene' there are plenty of dj's, with plenty of ovo to cover all types of events (top100/500/underplayed etc...).  (& if not, which i'm pretty sure is not the case, then perhaps this would help solve the problem of too many events).

It may however be 'too restricting' for an individual that wants to play big tunes that they dont have.......

I agree there are loads out there with everything to please just about everyone.  I haven’t seen a proliferation of bootleg djs at the mainstream events.  Yes they might exist locally but Ive yet to hear of any names 

all this wanting to play the classics, many unobtainable to the masses just goes to show it is not about the music but about cock waving and massaging an ego.  If you can’t do it right go at it from another angle, use some imagination and dig a little deeper, 1000s of decent records out there fit for any Dj. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by chalky

[davidwapples]

Most nights are just about the numbers through the door, the music played is second to the bar takings and entry money and the format is behind these .

[Steviehay]

23 hours ago, Winsford Soul said:

As a ex promoter, DJ and collector I've got all the bases covered 

Promoter. I was brought up in the belief that the nighter scene was and still should be original vinyl only and that was the policy at Winsford.  You have to trust the people that you book to have the same integrity as yourself because you can't stand next to them whilst they play there set. 

DJ. I was in the fortunate enough position to be able too afford most of the records that I have wanted which enabled me to be able too play original vinyl only but that to me is a unwritten law so even if I had boots of the real big ticket tunes I wouldn't have played them out anywhere.  

Collector.  As above fortunate enough to be able to afford them and having enough friends who recognised my tastes in music to put me onto many records before they became popular even found a few myself. If I couldn't afford or justify them I simply didn't buy them end of.

Steve 

Sorry Steve YOU may of played original at Winsford but not all the jocks did I never missed one until the end when the modern room went , I totally agree with what you say being a promoter dj now and have been since the days of old but I try and push the younger generation who can't or haven't got access to what myself or you own ,bootlegs have been around since Simon put his brand out back in the 70s ....we ALL bought from Colin bee did we not ..?? Because we hadn't a clue or access as we have now,so in retrospect this scene will be here for the greed, the profit ,....a bit like dare I say paying over the top for a fa cup final ticket which is in the same frame as paying over the odds for an original nowadays or do you just sit at home and turn the tv on ....

[Ian Stacey]

43 minutes ago, chalky said:

I agree there are loads out there with everything to please just about everyone.  I haven’t seen a proliferation of bootleg djs at the mainstream events.  Yes they might exist locally but Ive yet to hear of any names 

all this wanting to play the classics, many unobtainable to the masses just goes to show it is not about the music but about cock waving and massaging an ego.  If you can’t do it right go at it from another angle, use some imagination and dig a little deeper, 1000s of decent records out there fit for any Dj. 

exactly there are thousands of underplayed tunes especially from the Stafford/ Leicester /Bradford 1980s popular tunes  

[Winsford Soul]

12 minutes ago, steviehay said:

Sorry Steve YOU may of played original at Winsford but not all the jocks did I never missed one until the end when the modern room went , I totally agree with what you say being a promoter dj now and have been since the days of old but I try and push the younger generation who can't or haven't got access to what myself or you own ,bootlegs have been around since Simon put his brand out back in the 70s ....we ALL bought from Colin bee did we not ..?? Because we hadn't a clue or access as we have now,so in retrospect this scene will be here for the greed, the profit ,....a bit like dare I say paying over the top for a fa cup final ticket which is in the same frame as paying over the odds for an original nowadays or do you just sit at home and turn the tv on ....

Steve.  Thanks for the comments. As I said we couldn't police the Djs, just my point it was up to them.

If I was still promoting I would definitely have a mix of young and older DJ,s behind the decks and like Winsford give unknowns a chance because that's how I started.

Back in the 70,s ,75 to be exact aged 16 at the Casino I didn't know anything about original/ bootleg things, so yes I like 1000,s of others bought what where just records at the time. Some original mostly boots but I didn't DJ or aspire to at the time. Knowledge and wisdom are things that you get with age. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.  The kids of today have access to information beyond our wildest dreams at there age, so why play what they know are obviously bootlegs. if they want to DJ theres plenty of tunes actually cheaper to buy than most bootlegs these days. 

If there's money to be made at anything there will always be people willing to take advantage. That will never go away and I don't have a answer mate. Wish I did

Steve 

[bobkayli]

As a simple punter and also collector I don’t think much will change. We all have our own views with their own validity.

Personally if a DJ plays bootlegs, I’m not interested in listening to it and will go to another room. A skilled dj should be able to operate inside the law. 

Reissues I accept but over reliance on the commonly available reissues really isn’t that skilled. 

Ovo will always be my preferred listening. Often I have to travel good distances to attend events. Hearing sounds I would never be able to hear otherwise is one of the pleasures that make the trip worthwhile. The so called millionaire djs have their place in this respect as well as the dj that puts together his own take on achieving a sound.