Men jailed for ‘fake’ vinyl records scam

The Proceeds of Crime hearing should be interesting.

WOW!! Not before time, but have to say, "Why Has It Taken So Long?"

About time something like this happened, integrity in this game is paramount, we all know this type of activity has been going on since the inception of the rare soul scene, I have an understanding of how this all works and first and foremost it's about paying your dues and following the correct criteria throughout the process of putting out records, I do hope the record companies who own the publishing on this material hit them hard with royalties due, I do hope this will be the catalyst for the total removal of this activity but I somehow doubt it.

13 minutes ago, RICK SCOTT said:

WOW!! Not before time, but have to say, "Why Has It Taken So Long?"

Why dont the relevant people BPI, MCPS or whoever just sponsor an "is this a bootleg button" on the sites that sell them. Even better make it a legal requirement of said sites to feature one. How hard can it be ?.

10 minutes ago, Mark Bicknell said:

do hope the record companies who own the publishing on this material hit them hard with royalties due

 

Quote from the article.

Judge Williams said: “The accused made a market for what there was no legitimate source.”

He said the amount of money the men owed the record companies in royalties had not been calculated but “is likely to be small”.

43 minutes ago, RICK SCOTT said:

WOW!! Not before time, but have to say, "Why Has It Taken So Long?"

Because, as the original newspaper article states  "Judge Richard Williams  said no members of the public had complained about purchasing the records" adding that they would have expected them to be unlicensed presses...

So the boot playing wannabee dj's and the promoters that put them on are directly responsible for allowing this crime to perpetuate. Some would argue that eBay is similarly responsible for allowing the sale of such items despite numerous complaints which have been ignored.

Maybe more arrests are to follow now that the case against the main players has been successful.  Interesting to note that the case has been ongoing since at least July 2014. Hmmm, anyone bought or sold any boots since 2014 ?

 

- Kev

Edited November 30, 2018 by KevinKent

3 minutes ago, Soulsides said:

 

Quote from the article.

Judge Williams said: “The accused made a market for what there was no legitimate source.”

He said the amount of money the men owed the record companies in royalties had not been calculated but “is likely to be small”.

I know but at least 55,000 dodgy records are off the market which is a result.

Trouble is some other sum bag will take their place eventually but it's a start  one even still had stuff on ebay last week

Unfortunately, if there is money to be made, some will take a short cut.

Similar was going on some 60 years ago, also.

One of the most [THEN] flagrant cases of record bootlegging was uncovered in Feb 1958 when the office of the Illinois state’s attorney uncovered a distribution set up in Chicago and a pressing arrangement in Cincinnati. Records, plates and masters were confiscated at the Cincinnati pressing plant by Cincinnati police on information supplied by Chicago’s state’s attorney. Estimates of records produced and sold throughout the United States ranged from 100,000 since Christmas (1957) to several millions since the operation’s inception. Proof that the bootlegging was in operation before Christmas was the discovery of “The Joker” by Billy Myles on Ember.

Surely it’s up to us to denounce this criminal practice? I get pretty sick of seeing this rubbish for sale and fault the buyers just as much as the bootleggers. How do these cowboys gain access to a pressing plant - surely this could be more tightly regulated. Can’t believe the sums of money involved - there are obviously lots of people who need their heads tested for squandering their cash on this trash.

55 minutes ago, KevinKent said:

. Hmmm, anyone bought or sold any boots since 2014 ?

No but I've had a pair re-souled.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Kegsy

Mugs will always buy fake things that is why  these scum bags will always be around,  handbags perfume watches fair game,  but records that's sacrilegious

If you look at the pics there appears to be boxes of Kent stuff as well. 

vid of local news piece

 

Looking at their names at least one of these was a northern D.j in the early days round the time of the Cats, sad to read this

How many where reproductions of original labels not just boots to fool people into buying what they thought was the genuine record.  Because we all know it has happened 

Steve 

Yeah, I noticed too that the picture showed clearly boxes of Kent records. Danny White, Betty Bibbs, Troy Dodds, Timmy Wilson, Ansler Montel , Mel Williams.

In my opinion Kent records are a great label known for a lot of reissues, and all of their records are correctly licensed.

Perhaps some clarification is required. Were the criminals also booting Kent records ? Or were the criminals selling both legitimate and illegal records. Is the picture description incorrect?

Thanks

Mark

 

As other members have said on the site re. Bootlegs:

"they were just doing it for the love of the music".

B*llocks

Sounds like a possible plot for NORTHERN SOUL - THE MOVIE 2... 

Bootlegs have been coming out of Kidderminster since the 1970s, somehow it seemed relatively innocent in those days, but this Is just pure greed and is totally shameful. Looks like there are sizeable sums of money involved here, I wonder what the proceeds have been spent on.

If there was any justice, eBay could surely have some liability here too, they provided the platform for it and take a cut of the proceeds in commission. However, the seller is responsible for the item I guess. Interesting stuff.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Soul16

Julian Convay?  Dyslexic bootleggers.

At last - name and shame them..

I should imagine a few other unofficial suppliers are feeling a little less comfortable as this gathers more focus in the market place.

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Bossfourpart1
addition

What's the betting once these guys are in prison, each of them will be known on the landing as Bootsy?

Take note: the case was about the bootlegging only, expect these lads to be reappearing again sometime soon for cheating the HRMC, probably be getting extra time for that? Presumably KENT should get on the case if these lads were bootlegging Kent records?

Godfrey heard that name many times over the years and the amount of money he had and got a suspended ffs

The newspaper story link took us to the South Wales Argus. I took a look at a few local stories that appeared on the right and found what appears to be the happiest man ever upon being arrested: https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/17267313.have-you-seen-this-man/?ref=mr&lp=4

Edited December 1, 2018 by Guest

10 hours ago, Spain pete said:

Mugs will always buy fake things that is why  these scum bags will always be around,  handbags perfume watches fair game,  but records that's sacrilegious

People paying a fiver have hardly been mugged they know what they are buying so are not mugs at all. 

And it’s no different to buying a fake Vuitton bag. How is it?

I think the reporter on the BBC has made a slight error......amusing

Doesn't seem to know what a single is

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-46393631

Breaking News - From the Reuters News Desk

Hundreds of Northern Soul events are facing closure with numerous DJs facing redundancy as their suppliers of vinyl records are imprisoned.

As spokesperson for the Non Original Vinyl and Bootleg Only Promotors Society ( NOVBOPS) said ' Many of our promoters are facing ruin in the light of these imprisonments, as well as our 'new; DJs losing their livelihoods as record supplies 'dry' up. An emergency meeting of NOVBOPS is being called in the hope that some of those affected will be able to 'rustle up' sufficient original records to continue with the odd event. However the spokesperson stated that this scenario was unlikely as most promoters and DJs don't know what an original 45 looks like and finding people with any knowledge of original vinyl records was proving an almost impossible task.

Check in with Reuters for future updates on this breaking story

 

 

2 hours ago, JNixon said:

People paying a fiver have hardly been mugged they know what they are buying so are not mugs at all. 

And it’s no different to buying a fake Vuitton bag. How is it?

It was meant to be tongue in cheek john 

Real news about fakers makes a pleasant change from fake news about real people.

At last thank f..k for that.

 

It would be great to get some pics of the bootlegs up on here (other than the 2 shown on the report) and the brown boxes full of them

 Can you imagine the shock for the two guys sent to prison. This must be unprecedented for such a crime and I bet they thought they would get a small fine. From the articles I have seen it doesn’t say if all four were manufacturing as well as selling - Maybe the two who received suspended sentences were just selling, but in bulk. There are hundreds of people selling bootlegs on eBay and other sites who must be sourcing from a number of similar people who actually do the repressing and now will need to seriously reconsider their activities.  Copyright infringement/license fraud is a massive business, but record booting is only a very small part, albeit increasing over recent years.  It would be interesting to know which of the media/music companies were active in this case or whether it was mainly driven by the BPI. I will try and get a copy of the Court case files as we have very little detail so far.

I have never booted a record but of course have bought many over the years as most of us will have. Why have an original £1000+ record on your 1958 juke box for example.... Of course we all would like to think decent royalties have been paid to the artists and their estates hence praising the likes of Kent, Grapevine and other legitimate companies.  In reality this doesn’t happen as much as we would like for many reasons of which booting is one and at last may be taking a downturn. 

13 hours ago, Simon Bonsor said:

If you look at the pics there appears to be boxes of Kent stuff as well. 

No,those aren’t counterfeit KENT records....those are the pre-orders KevinKent put in,ready to be shipped out......

There’s still loads on eBay right now. Even the sellers name and location strongly suggest that it’s the same ‘gang’. Unbelievable.

1 minute ago, Soul16 said:

There’s still loads on eBay right now. Even the sellers name and location strongly suggest that it’s the same ‘gang’. Unbelievable.

Can we have a link please

15 hours ago, Kegsy said:

Why dont the relevant people BPI, MCPS or whoever just sponsor an "is this a bootleg button" on the sites that sell them. Even better make it a legal requirement of said sites to feature one. How hard can it be ?.

A good idea but someone without a lot of knowledge may think a local issue is a boot or a legit reissue is a boot and "hit" the button. Or if it's a dealer someone doesn't like  "hit" the button out of spite. I'd rather see someone with considerable knowledge employed to root out these illegal records. (just an opinion) 

Edited December 1, 2018 by Dave West

How many are out there already? Have you got one in your box.... ? Unfortunately someone has paid for a fake....

11 minutes ago, Dave West said:

I'd rather see someone with considerable knowledge employed to root out these illegal records. (just an opinion) 

I was thinking along the lines of the button being used to flag things up, for review by someone with the knowledge. Which ought to stop people misusing the function.

 Bought bootlegs myself in the 70s only way obtain some sounds then  i know it was wrong but no excuse today plenty of legal sources today  if all u want 2 do is listen 2 to the music

53 minutes ago, Soul16 said:

There’s still loads on eBay right now. Even the sellers name and location strongly suggest that it’s the same ‘gang’. Unbelievable.

Well that is good news! Surely there's no way now that eBay can avoid being hauled over the legal coals for their participation.

- Kev

Edited December 1, 2018 by KevinKent
Spelling

4 minutes ago, KevinKent said:

Well that is good news! Surely there's no way now that eBay can avoid being hailed over the legal coals for their participation.

- Kev

https://community.ebay.co.uk/t5/Archive-Seller-Central/How-to-sue-ebay-or-paypal/td-p/386557

27 minutes ago, Pablorally said:

How many are out there already? Have you got one in your box.... ? Unfortunately someone has paid for a fake....

Their whole business was based on selling fakes to buyers who knew they were fakes on a Buy it Now basis for around £6 each. They shifted loads of this illegal worthless plastic to buyers who wanted to be part of the ‘new cool’ that is Northern Soul...

 

42 minutes ago, Rictic66 said:

 Can you imagine the shock for the two guys sent to prison. This must be unprecedented for such a crime and I bet they thought they would get a small fine. From the articles I have seen it doesn’t say if all four were manufacturing as well as selling - Maybe the two who received suspended sentences were just selling, but in bulk. There are hundreds of people selling bootlegs on eBay and other sites who must be sourcing from a number of similar people who actually do the repressing and now will need to seriously reconsider their activities.  Copyright infringement/license fraud is a massive business, but record booting is only a very small part, albeit increasing over recent years.  It would be interesting to know which of the media/music companies were active in this case or whether it was mainly driven by the BPI. I will try and get a copy of the Court case files as we have very little detail so far.

I have never booted a record but of course have bought many over the years as most of us will have. Why have an original £1000+ record on your 1958 juke box for example.... Of course we all would like to think decent royalties have been paid to the artists and their estates hence praising the likes of Kent, Grapevine and other legitimate companies.  In reality this doesn’t happen as much as we would like for many reasons of which booting is one and at last may be taking a downturn. 

Being involved with Secret Stash Records in recent years I have an understanding of how this all works, we have the exclusive worldwide licence from One-derful productions to be able to legally issue the recordings, One-derful records was founded by the Leaner Brothers in Chicago and the catalog is now owned by Ernie Leaners son Eric, everything we release has to be given the green light by him and full licence fees paid in advance of any releases, there has been a great deal of time, investment and hard work to firstly go through all the masters and transfer from studio masters to modern day technology before you even start the process, this of course is the case of Ady at Kent, Rob Moss at Hayley, the Soul Junction boys and other legitimate labels, ok the licence might not be a huge amount of money but it's simply the correct thing to do, where there is somtimes a grey area is when you can't trace who owns the publishing rights to these recordings as in the annals of time with tiny long since defunct record labels tracing the ownership is well pretty much impossible making it often easy pickings for this type of activity but it still wrong but very much exploited.

1 hour ago, Rictic66 said:

 Can you imagine the shock for the two guys sent to prison. 

Yep! Fresh meat in the block. Brings a whole new meaning to those ' little hole, big hole ' debates.

I think it's a bit harsh to be honest , I mean it doesn't affect the price of the originals nowadays , there's a market for this stuff , ( I buy the one and I am sure many others on here do too )  Some  pensioners making a few bob , they got caught , so maybe confiscate  the discs , but jail ? As crimes go , this is not really much to write home about ( only my opinion of course ) probably about as serious as tobacco smuggling , both seems to provide a service (albeit illicit ). One side effect of this may be that the illicit discs currently in circulation may rise in value . 

Presume the two that got suspended sentences was because of being first offences.

I got asked by one of them to borrow my 'The Parisians - Twinkle Little Star' because he wanted a decent scan of the label. I wasn't aware of why, but something didn't feel right, so I didn't oblige (Not sure if this record got counter-fitted)

What records do we know have been counter-fitted by them? Be good to have them listed for people to be aware.

So, have people been buying them for £6.00 from these guys, then selling them as originals for said value? 

Len 

 

1 hour ago, carty said:

I think it's a bit harsh to be honest , I mean it doesn't affect the price of the originals nowadays , there's a market for this stuff , ( I buy the one and I am sure many others on here do too )  Some  pensioners making a few bob , they got caught , so maybe confiscate  the discs , but jail ? As crimes go , this is not really much to write home about ( only my opinion of course ) probably about as serious as tobacco smuggling , both seems to provide a service (albeit illicit ). One side effect of this may be that the illicit discs currently in circulation may rise in value . 

Agree. Should be a civil law matter. Get an injunction, and sue for unpaid royalties. The crime here is unpaid income tax. To be clear though I don’t condone this activity or buy this product.

Edited December 1, 2018 by autumnstoned

31 minutes ago, carty said:

I think it's a bit harsh to be honest , I mean it doesn't affect the price of the originals nowadays , there's a market for this stuff , ( I buy the one and I am sure many others on here do too )  Some  pensioners making a few bob , they got caught , so maybe confiscate  the discs , but jail ? As crimes go , this is not really much to write home about ( only my opinion of course ) probably about as serious as tobacco smuggling , both seems to provide a service (albeit illicit ). One side effect of this may be that the illicit discs currently in circulation may rise in value . 

But what about the pensioners the other side of the water, I would bet more than half of those singers and writers struggle to buy food...

15 minutes ago, ric-tic said:

But what about the pensioners the other side of the water, I would bet more than half of those singers and writers struggle to buy food...

Fair enough , yes , maybe the discs should have been sold off and the proceeds sent over there , complicated business though , many artists now passed on , relatively small amount of cash to be distributed , what about producers etc .. But in principle that would be the ideal community payback  . Maybe the transgressors should be made to sit across the table from their victims , and explain their motivations for acting in such a manner , I am Sure Saxie Russell and co would appreciate the " healing " opportunity  

String ‘em up I say. Flogging’s too good for them. Bring back the stocks. If you can’t do the time then don’t do the crime. This kind of activity gets Northern Soul a bad name so add another three months in solitary confinement.

14 hours ago, Soul16 said:

Looks like there are sizeable sums of money involved here, I wonder what the proceeds have been spent on.

Hip replacements I'd hazard a guess.

Len 

23 minutes ago, ric-tic said:

But what about the pensioners the other side of the water, I would bet more than half of those singers and writers struggle to buy food...

There's a pertinent little Pearl in that video, at 1:09 very applicable to the OVO Soul scene...

As I've said many times here, illegal bootlegs are simple theft, I'll never understand why they are grouped collectively alongside legitimate reissues.

Bootlegs should be banned from events, legitimate reissues should be encouraged.

 

who represents the artists that get ripped off by the record companies 

 

1 hour ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

There's a pertinent little Pearl in that video, at 1:09 very applicable to the OVO Soul scene...

As I've said many times here, illegal bootlegs are simple theft, I'll never understand why they are grouped collectively alongside legitimate reissues.

Bootlegs should be banned from events, legitimate reissues should be encouraged.

 

If counterfeiting was simple theft, these individuals would have been charged with offences under the Theft Act. They pleaded guilty to copyright and trademarks offences. Not really theft at all. The owners still have their works to sell. The buyers were happy with their purchases apparently. Two blokes inside costing us money. There was a civil law remedy available, but the BPI seem able to persuade some tame CID to march around in his size 13’s and rummage about some geezers lock up. 

 

 

 

 

 

A man of integrity is needed here to sort out this situation , someone beyond reproach , respected by all . Didnt  Simon Soussan resurface recently ?

1 minute ago, autumnstoned said:

If counterfeiting was simple theft, these individuals would have been charged with offences under the Theft Act. They pleaded guilty to copyright and trademarks offences. Not really theft at all. The owners still have their works to sell. The buyers were happy with their purchases apparently. Two blokes inside costing us money. There was a civil law remedy available, but the BPI seem able to persuade some tame CID to march around in his size 13’s and rummage about some geezers lock up. 

Taking someone's copyrighted material, selling it and not giving them their due share of the money is simply stealing money directly from them. 'Copyright and Trademark offenses' laws are simply another way of categorising this specific form of theft in the same way as Burglary and Fraud laws.

Just now, carty said:

A man of integrity is needed here to sort out this situation , someone beyond reproach , respected by all . Didnt  Simon Soussan resurface recently ?

Michel Soussan did a lot of deals that were directly beneficial to artists and publishers, way more so than the whole OVO thing. A very misunderstood character.

2 hours ago, LEN said:

Presume the two that got suspended sentences was because of being first offences.

I got asked by one of them to borrow my 'The Parisians - Twinkle Little Star' because he wanted a decent scan of the label. I wasn't aware of why, but something didn't feel right, so I didn't oblige (Not sure if this record got counter-fitted)

What records do we know have been counter-fitted by them? Be good to have them listed for people to be aware.

So, have people been buying them for £6.00 from these guys, then selling them as originals for said value? 

Len 

 

I've definitely seen a boot of it Len but wouldn't know if it's this lot that did it.....kind regards....Rob

1 hour ago, LEN said:

Hip replacements I'd hazard a guess.

Len 

Scandal of fake hip replacement joints on the market, cost the NHS millions in replacement operations. Buying on the cheap.  

Steve 

29 minutes ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

Taking someone's copyrighted material, selling it and not giving them their due share of the money is simply stealing money directly from them. 'Copyright and Trademark offenses' laws are simply another way of categorising this specific form of theft in the same way as Burglary and Fraud laws.

Employing someone to perform a service and not paying them for it is stealing money directly from them but actually is a breach of contract something which you are expected to resolve through the civil courts. Same difference. I don’t condone bootlegging but I don’t see why corporations like Sony, Universal et al should be able to use the criminal law to protect their interests when others who lose out financially don’t have the same rights. Shall we leave it at that?

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by autumnstoned

2 minutes ago, autumnstoned said:

Employing someone to perform a service and not paying them for it is stealing money directly from them but actually is a breach of contract something which you are expected to resolve through the civil courts. 

But wouldn't you need a contract  to begin with?

50 minutes ago, autumnstoned said:

Employing someone to perform a service and not paying them for it is stealing money directly from them but actually is a breach of contract something which you are expected to resolve through the civil courts. Same difference. I don’t condone bootlegging but I don’t see why corporations like Sony, Universal et al should be able to use the criminal law to protect their interests when others who lose out financially don’t have the same rights. Shall we leave it at that?

Just noticed your subsequent edit. I agree in principle with your addition to your post, it is largely up to the Artist at the contracting stage to ensure their own lawyer is representing their interest fully. Sadly in the buzz and excitement of it all they usually so overwhelmed that these aspects of the deal can get overlooked. The same law that protects the label is also available to the Artists and Writers, just often they are not astute enough at the time and sign in haste.

Don't ask how I know!

I have quite a few boots in boxes that not played for years, I purchased in ignorance believing them to be okay, a few collectors helped with my education on OVO and reissues etc. The Manship guide to Bootlegs, counterfeits, reissues of Northern Soul 45's helped open my eyes to the number of fakes out there and aided me with identifying the counterfeit vinyl (so thank you JM).  The pressings are in boxes under the roof, I have given a few away as gifts but the recipient is informed that are fakes and the fidelity is sub standard from an original. Selling them would feel wrong. Wondering what have other people done with pressings 

4 hours ago, carty said:

I think it's a bit harsh to be honest , I mean it doesn't affect the price of the originals nowadays , there's a market for this stuff , ( I buy the one and I am sure many others on here do too )  Some  pensioners making a few bob , they got caught , so maybe confiscate  the discs , but jail ? As crimes go , this is not really much to write home about ( only my opinion of course ) probably about as serious as tobacco smuggling , both seems to provide a service (albeit illicit ). One side effect of this may be that the illicit discs currently in circulation may rise in value . 

Nowadays you can get legit copies of most sounds on cds etc so for playing at home car etc sorted . Boots are just wrong and should carry no value at all .

As for the sentencing its theft and deception do the crime do the time  .

15 minutes ago, Mark S said:

Nowadays you can get legit copies of most sounds on cds etc so for playing at home car etc sorted . Boots are just wrong and should carry no value at all .

As for the sentencing its theft and deception do the crime do the time  .

Isn't there a minimum amount of money obtained by fraud or theft that draws the line between committing a misdemeanor and a felony under UK law?  That's the way it works in Canada and USA.  I don't know the current amounts in Canada and USA, as it rises over time due to inflation.  But, misdemeanor levels usually include a punishing fine, probation, and possibly public social penance work, - but no jail time.  Felonious monetary levels of theft or fraud usually DO result in a prison sentence.  So, I would expect a similar situation in The UK. 

If someone were to make up a fake high-value NS record facsimile, and fool some well-known authority/expert into declaring that it is a genuine original, and then, sell it for more £500, he SHOULD go to prison.  That is stealing an honest hard-working average person's sustenance.  Even though that person has made the choice to use that money for a seemingly non-essential purpose, he has already sacrificed something that an average person would think is "essential", to gather together this "mad money".  There SHOULD be a substantial deterrent to keep people from hurting innocent people in this manner.  The fairly small risk of being caught by the police and being fined is not enough to stop most crooks. 

A potential prison sentence for trying to defraud someone of £500 probably IS enough to make a reasonable proportion of the still rational selfish would-be defrauders decide not to commit that crime, or, at least to think twice about it.  I think we need that deterrent.  Stealing a loaf of bread to feed one's children SHOULDN'T send some one to prison (or the galleys ).

I've never earned much money.  So, I resent selfish, mean, nasty, crooked, sick people trying to fleece me of what little I have.  There SHOULD be punishment to deter the amoral, anti-social, sick-os from taking upstanding citizens' hard-earned boodles.   I'll get off my soapbox now((former Hyde Park dissident that I am), and bleeding heart liberal ), and let the fascists take over (and propose the pillory, the stocks, hanging the offenders on meathooks or danging hung by piano wire, and marked forever with the mark "RT" (Record Thief) burned into their skin with a branding iron, or being fed to the lions in the closest zoo).  

4 hours ago, LEN said:

So, have people been buying them for £6.00 from these guys, then selling them as originals for said value? 

Len 

 

I doubt it Len, a blind man on a flying horse could see that they’re all brand spanking new. 

For the sellers, I think it’s just a case of cashing in on a big market while you can and spending the ill-gotten gains on stuff that they need but can’t afford on a standard pension...

When it comes to the buyers of said items, I imagine that they’re purchased for some kind of misguided ‘look at my Norvern vinyl collection’ willy waving thing. Legalities aside, the only reasonable reason I can think of is that if you owned a 45 rpm jukebox and you wanted to load it with Northern Soul, that would be the way to go. 

5 hours ago, carty said:

I think it's a bit harsh to be honest , I mean it doesn't affect the price of the originals nowadays , there's a market for this stuff , ( I buy the one and I am sure many others on here do too )  Some  pensioners making a few bob , they got caught , so maybe confiscate  the discs , but jail ? As crimes go , this is not really much to write home about ( only my opinion of course ) probably about as serious as tobacco smuggling , both seems to provide a service (albeit illicit ). One side effect of this may be that the illicit discs currently in circulation may rise in value . 

Some pensioners making a few bob. It was hundreds of thousands of pounds!

So my question is who is pressing these boots up for these guy's ?? Who ever it is should be tarred with the same brush:-):-)

3 hours ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

Taking someone's copyrighted material, selling it and not giving them their due share of the money is simply stealing money directly from them. 'Copyright and Trademark offenses' laws are simply another way of categorising this specific form of theft in the same way as Burglary and Fraud laws.

Talking criminals, I wonder how many of the artists didn't get their money off the record companies, bet none of the directors of the record companies got sent to prison. 

 

When these pressings started appearing on eBay, years back now, a few members  Soulsource tried to bring that corporations attention

to these booters, but gave up after getting zero reaction from the company, despite the fact that at the time  it was against eBay policy

(it still probably is) to sell bootlegs on their site. 

I wonder whether anyone's pursuing either eBay or Amazon for their share of the profits  and or their failure to adequately police

the products that are selling. As the BBC's watchdog program so often uncovers, these sites are rife with counterfeit products ,

often proving to be falsely CE marked and dangerous to the public. 

In the course of the trial of these guys  it has apparently been stated by the authorities that there has been "no complaint from

members of the public".  Given that some of the DJ personalities involved in the music industry have on occasion expressed their

concerns about  the counterfeiting business, I  find this difficult to believe.

I guess that it is beyond the governance of any authority to bring the web sites themselves to book.

 

Ian Levine will be worried

4 hours ago, Lionelonthevinyl said:

I've definitely seen a boot of it Len but wouldn't know if it's this lot that did it.....kind regards....Rob

Oh ok - Glad it wasn't anything to do with me, even if unbeknownst. 

The way it was asked got me suspicious for some reason, I suppose I thought it may have been for a single carver - I've only ever let people scan records for good reason (Article, Flyer, CD or what have you)

Len 

1 hour ago, Soul16 said:

I doubt it Len, a blind man on a flying horse could see that they’re all brand spanking new. 

For the sellers, I think it’s just a case of cashing in on a big market while you can and spending the ill-gotten gains on stuff that they need but can’t afford on a standard pension...

When it comes to the buyers of said items, I imagine that they’re purchased for some kind of misguided ‘look at my Norvern vinyl collection’ willy waving thing. Legalities aside, the only reasonable reason I can think of is that if you owned a 45 rpm jukebox and you wanted to load it with Northern Soul, that would be the way to go. 

I getcha - So basically selling said records to lots of people for £6.00 each.

The fraud of originals is out there though isn't it?

Len 

I’m sure fraud of originals is out there, but to a far lesser extent. This was about shifting large quantities of flimsy fakes with crude pastiches of the original label designs.

UK Grapevine boots are only £4 a pop though - Bargain! 

Interesting thing is now that this has broke in the uk, What (if anything) will happen in the U.S.A. and other countries, After all, the Bulk of Northern Soul Music Originated from the U.S.A.and has been counterfieted along with a lot of other Black Music be it Soul, Blues, Deep Soul, Doo Wop, Gospel Etc. and yes they have all been Victims over the years, So, What now (if Anything?)    

Just seen a sale by a dealer on Facebook of Eddie Parker - I’m Gone 70’s boot for £30.00. Why when you can buy a legit reissue brand new from Ace Records for £8.00? 

 

 

1 minute ago, autumnstoned said:

Just seen a sale by a dealer on Facebook of Eddie Parker - I’m Gone 70’s boot for £30.00. Why when you can buy a legit reissue brand new from Ace Records for £8.00? 

 

Really, The Mind Boggles 

 

55 minutes ago, RICK SCOTT said:

 

 

58 minutes ago, autumnstoned said:

Just seen a sale by a dealer on Facebook of Eddie Parker - I’m Gone 70’s boot for £30.00. Why when you can buy a legit reissue brand new from Ace Records for £8.00? 

 

 

I would guess that SOME weird-thinking record collectors would rather pay the trifling sum of £5 more, to have a semi-rare '70s boot(which was made in small quantities, and very few are currently available), rather than a currently available issue, that ANYONE can have, at a moments notice (e.g. the '70s boot is a 40+ year old "collectable" (albeit not very valuable), for those reasons.

Only ever brought one boot in my life and that  unknowingly was a reggae record  if l want a piece of music and can't get or afford the original l'm happy to own it on a c/d.   f#ck the low life scumbags and the Pratt's that buy them 

Maybe they could jail some of the Fake DJ's as well..... 

1 hour ago, RobbK said:

 

I would guess that SOME weird-thinking record collectors would rather pay the trifling sum of £5 more, to have a semi-rare '70s boot(which was made in small quantities, and very few are currently available), rather than a currently available issue, that ANYONE can have, at a moments notice (e.g. the '70s boot is a 40+ year old "collectable" (albeit not very valuable), for those reasons.

not as weird as you think IMO. For exact the reasons you state. One is 40+ old, from the "good old days", hard to find and therefore much more collectable, one is readily available in quantities, less collectable, even though it's legit and in much better sound quality.

Back on topic: I'm pretty astonished about the money one could make these days with selling pressings. They seized 150K in a Paypal account.!

6 hours ago, mellorful said:

I have quite a few boots in boxes that not played for years, I purchased in ignorance believing them to be okay, a few collectors helped with my education on OVO and reissues etc. The Manship guide to Bootlegs, counterfeits, reissues of Northern Soul 45's helped open my eyes to the number of fakes out there and aided me with identifying the counterfeit vinyl (so thank you JM).  The pressings are in boxes under the roof, I have given a few away as gifts but the recipient is informed that are fakes and the fidelity is sub standard from an original. Selling them would feel wrong. Wondering what have other people done with pressings 

I remember a particular Saturday when I cleared out my 'boots' to the big bin outside, it was actually cathartic, knowing no other mug would buy them

on topic I do feel sorry for pensioners going to jail, bloody sad

3 minutes ago, shufflin said:

 

on topic I do feel sorry for pensioners going to jail, bloody sad

They won't have to worry about their winter fuel bill.

28 minutes ago, shufflin said:

I remember a particular Saturday when I cleared out my 'boots' to the big bin outside, it was actually cathartic, knowing no other mug would buy them

on topic I do feel sorry for pensioners going to jail, bloody sad

All they had to do to avoid that was to not try to cheat and steal from other people (some of whom might also be pensioners)!  I have pity for them only in the sense that they feel bad enough inside to become so selfish and needy that they forget that the people that they steal from are being hurt by their actions.  I feel lucky that I don't feel so sad inside, like they do.  BUT, I do think that they should serve time in jail if the amount they took is more than £250-300 or so.  Losing that hurts people. 

Less than that amount, they should be made to return that amount to the injured party, PLUS an extra amount for putting them through the experience.  They should also be put on probation (checked upon), and made to do social work (helping sick and old people) as penance, for several months, to let them know there will be consequences (losing their precious personal time), and to also feel what is like to help others (give, instead of take).  Maybe that might even alert them to the fact that THEY, themselves, aren't the only person in The World.  And that others are worse off, and helping them can make one feel accomplished.  Deep down it might help them to feel good that maybe someone else MIGHT want to help THEM, when they will need help, later in life.

27 minutes ago, Steve S 60 said:

They won't have to worry about their winter fuel bill.

I knew the increase in pension age was gonna put up the crime rate next thing we will know women will be faking a  organism

A bootleg be it from today or back in the 70's is still a bootleg as in unofficial unlicenced made for profit and void of any publishing royalty in essence none of the money raised from the production of such records and subsequently the sale of such records results in no fees, payments or royalties being paid to the artists and owners of the material, dress it up all you like it's illegal and a criminal act as the result of this case suggests.

8 hours ago, Spain pete said:

I knew the increase in pension age was gonna put up the crime rate next thing we will know women will be faking a  organism

Is that a single or multiple celled organism?

It's actually made the national press.  A new abbreviation to join OVO is EVC, Elderly Vinyl Conmen......

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/30/conmen-jailed-selling-thousands-fake-northern-soul-vinyls-taking/amp/

 

15 hours ago, headsy said:

Ian Levine will be worried

Why ?

1 hour ago, Steve S 60 said:

Is that a single or multiple celled organism?

Any old orgasam will do. Or even a spell checking device 

11 hours ago, shufflin said:

I remember a particular Saturday when I cleared out my 'boots' to the big bin outside, it was actually cathartic, knowing no other mug would buy them

on topic I do feel sorry for pensioners going to jail, bloody sad

The top 2 of the 4 "pensioners" had grossed £178,000 and £163,000 respectively.  Working out of their homes, I'd guess their overhead was less than 10% of that (probably significantly less).  So, I'd guess they netted about £150,000 and £140,000.  I don't feel sorry for them getting 10 months and 8 months in prison.  They stole large amounts of money from buyers, and the creators of the product, and/or their children.  Why should we allow selfish, uncaring, nasty people like that, who don't respect other beings' rights to gain the fruits of their labour get away with such actions with just a slap on the wrist?  That's only a short bit away from condoning it. 

Edited December 2, 2018 by RobbK

52 minutes ago, RobbK said:

The top 2 of the 4 "pensioners" had grossed £178,000 and £163,000 respectively.  Working out of their homes, I'd guess their overhead was less than 10% of that (probably significantly less).  So, I'd guess they netted about £150,000 and £140,000.  I don't feel sorry for them getting 10 months and 8 months in prison.  They stole large amounts of money from buyers, and the creators of the product, and/or their children.  Why should we allow selfish, uncaring, nasty people like that, who don't respect other beings' rights to gain the fruits of their labour get away with such actions with just a slap on the wrist?  That's only a short bit away from condoning it. 

...and hopefully this will act as a deterrent to others.  The Proceeds of Crime Hearing next year should also deprive them of their ill gotten gains.  They have wide reaching powers and can seize assets if the money is gone.

2 hours ago, Steve S 60 said:

It's actually made the national press.  A new abbreviation to join OVO is EVC, Elderly Vinyl Conmen......

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/11/30/conmen-jailed-selling-thousands-fake-northern-soul-vinyls-taking/amp/

 

suddenly feel less sorry for them, that's some big numbers I'm surprised it's THAT profitable, live and learn

Had a quick look on Ebay and still loads of fake records for sale so I see no evidence of changing behaviour from sellers or the auction platform.  

1 minute ago, shufflin said:

suddenly feel less sorry for them, that's some big numbers I'm surprised it's THAT profitable, live and learn

Not what you'd call a cottage industry.  A lot of small companies would be happy with that sort of turnover.  I'm just amazed at the amount of idiots out there buying this crap.

22 hours ago, kim said:

who represents the artists that get ripped off by the record companies 

 

Managers, artist representatives etc.

However even if there was no one, it wouldn't excuse these people getting away with this, as they are ripping of artists who do get paid royalties, songwriters who are doing the same, and stopping labels that do it properly from releasing these records

2 hours ago, shufflin said:

suddenly feel less sorry for them, that's some big numbers I'm surprised it's THAT profitable, live and learn

I'm not so sure, from those photos it looks as if they were stuck with hundreds of boxes full, probably what's left of a huge batch that they had commissioned thinking they would be able to sell them.

A bit like, my attempts at the charts, granted had a few near misses but still have a big stack of 500 count boxes of different ones, mostly unopened! 

I can't see where their target market was.

13 hours ago, Mark Bicknell said:

A bootleg be it from today or back in the 70's is still a bootleg as in unofficial unlicenced made for profit and void of any publishing royalty in essence none of the money raised from the production of such records and subsequently the sale of such records results in no fees, payments or royalties being paid to the artists and owners of the material, dress it up all you like it's illegal and a criminal act as the result of this case suggests.

Spot on Bickers old son!

3 hours ago, Steve S 60 said:

Not what you'd call a cottage industry.  A lot of small companies would be happy with that sort of turnover.  I'm just amazed at the amount of idiots out there buying this crap.

There are masses of them and not just the Northern scene, the 50s Rocking scene is awash with mugs buying these things.

 

 

No problem for those guys to have lots left over selling at £7,99 each without any vat they would be making a pretty penny if they only sold half of each pressing run . All profit with no artists ,writers royalties etc