Motown or Northern Soul

[maslar]

On 25/11/2018 at 20:38, MotownSoulMan said:

DaveNPete I knew this was going to stir some reaction when I posted it ha ha. In my opinion Ric Tic, Soul, Golden World and the rest of the purchased subsidiary labels are all Motown. As for Melody records, enough said the better. There are those that would only include, Tamla, Motown and possibly Gordy, as posted by The Tempest above. Zed1 has a point too, but then you look at monsters like The Night, by Frankie Valli & The Four Seasons, on Mowest, and it trashes the whole thing. Fair enough, on its first release in 1972 it fitted the mould by that definition, but when re-released in 1975 it charted, so no longer fits the bill. Winsford Soul also has a good point also. 

BabyBoyAndMyLass Thank you for that ☺

i don't know how you can class  Ric Tic and Golden world as Motown? Both were established as the Motown sound was still developing. Speaking very generally I'd say that the main distinction is that RT and GW had a more jazzy sound.  I'm pretty sure this was  a deliberate move to create some distance from Motown. The instrumentals are all pretty jazzy . But it really shows on tracks like Stop Her On Sight and Headline News. You could actually imagine Frank Sinatra singing those tracks quite easily.  A definite jazz influence/swing to the whole thing.  

[Guest BabyBoyAndMyLass]

4 minutes ago, maslar said:

i don't know how you can class  Ric Tic and Golden world as Motown? Both were established as the Motown sound was still developing. Speaking very generally I'd say that the main distinction is that RT and GW had a more jazzy sound.  I'm pretty sure this was  a deliberate move to create some distance from Motown. The instrumentals are all pretty jazzy . But it really shows on tracks like Stop Her On Sight and Headline News. You could actually imagine Frank Sinatra singing those tracks quite easily.  A definite jazz influence/swing to the whole thing.  

That is a great observation Mas! I like that.

[David Meikle]

35 minutes ago, maslar said:

Motown was label but it was also a sound - The Motown Sound"..  That particular sound reached its apex in  66/67. It's this largely on the fours beat that became the bedrock of Northern soul. When Dave Godin first used the term I'm guessing he was mainly referring to Motown or influenced records. I once  heard a  well known oldies dj refer to Motown as the foundation of Northern Soul and I'd agree.  

and let's face it. many of it's biggest hits are much better than the obscure things that  sometimes get raved about. Often the emperor has most definitely lost his clothes. The strange  thing is that many of the biggest and best Motown hits have never received any time at NS events. Yet other records not as good have. E.g The Tams chart-topping Hey Girl Don't Bother Me which must have been played at least once at every Wigan oldies night  I went to. . I bet there are people on the northern scene who've never danced to Get Ready or You Keep  Me hanging On. and would probably run off the floor if they were played. Very strange. In a sense their lack of airplay gives these records a kind of  rarity on the northern scene.  

The reason that I travelled to Manchester from Glasgow in 1970 was to hear records which I could not hear anywhere else.

Many of the imported Wheel records later turned out to be not ‘rare’ at all. But back then no one knew any better.

Uk releases were to the fore at that time and many of those WERE difficult to find.

[David Meikle]

20 minutes ago, maslar said:

i don't know how you can class  Ric Tic and Golden world as Motown? Both were established as the Motown sound was still developing. Speaking very generally I'd say that the main distinction is that RT and GW had a more jazzy sound.  I'm pretty sure this was  a deliberate move to create some distance from Motown. The instrumentals are all pretty jazzy . But it really shows on tracks like Stop Her On Sight and Headline News. You could actually imagine Frank Sinatra singing those tracks quite easily.  A definite jazz influence/swing to the whole thing.  

Many of the RT/GW records were backed by the Funk Brothers as we now know.

The Funks were sick of the Motown sound and yearned to play something different.

One of their best efforts was recorded in Chicago IMO....The Who Who Song by Jackie Wilson.

A crazy title but what a backing track.

Laura Lee told me that the only reason To Win Your Heart sounded good was because of the Funks...not her.

Mike Hanks output, arranged by Rudy Robinson, was much rougher and more interesting than Motown etc but could not capture popular demand.

[maslar]

3 minutes ago, David Meikle said:

Many of the RT/GW records were backed by the Funk Brothers as we now know.

The Funks were sick of the Motown sound and yearned to play something different.

One of their best efforts was recorded in Chicago IMO....The Who Who Song by Jackie Wilson.

A crazy title but what a backing track.

Laura Lee told me that the only reason To Win Your Heart sounded good was because of the Funks...not her.

Mike Hanks output, arranged by Rudy Robinson, was much rougher and more interesting than Motown etc but could not capture popular demand.

It's easy to forget (for me anyway) just how unusual and new tracks such as Festival Time must have sounded at the time. Definitely fits in the jazz soul pocket.

[givemesoul]

Great to see a guy getting a motown question right on popmaster today,the contours lil misunderstanding.which is soul.motown and northern soul all wrapped up into one fantastic slice of beauty

[Chalky]

Motown covers many genres of music amongst its many labels and to me “Motown” is simply used as a generic term for its output and not a genre.  Yes there is formula for a lot of its output (probably too formulaic and rehearsed as alluded to) but the genres cover pop, middle of the road, easy listening, R&B, soul, soft rock and so on.

Northern Soul isn’t a genre either, it is a scene that adopts records from many genres, labels artists etc, Motown included.

Edited November 27, 2018 by chalky

[Motownsoulman]

chalky That, as near as doesn't matter, sums it up. I would certainly agree with most of what you say when you put it that way. I certainly wouldn't class Northern Soul as a genre of music, for pretty much the same reasons as you state, and as I stated near the start of this thread. Calling it "a scene" is probably the best way to put it. As for Motown, I stick to what I originally said, in that it is just that, Motown.

[Zed1]

42 minutes ago, chalky said:

 

Northern Soul isn’t a genre, it is a scene that adopts records from many genres, labels artists etc, Motown included.

Could someone make this into a Patch?... 

[Winsford Soul]

1 hour ago, Zed1 said:

Could someone make this into a Patch?... 

Gaz. Patch it would have to be a coat to cover all the different genre's mate. 

Trust the lovely Debs and yourself are well and safe.  

[Amsterdam Russ]

1 hour ago, Zed1 said:

Could someone make this into a Patch?... 

[Professorturnups]

On ‎26‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 20:30, maslar said:

Motown was label but it was also a sound - The Motown Sound"..  That particular sound reached its apex in  66/67. It's this largely on the fours beat that became the bedrock of Northern soul. When Dave Godin first used the term I'm guessing he was mainly referring to Motown or influenced records. I once  heard a  well known oldies dj refer to Motown as the foundation of Northern Soul and I'd agree.  

and let's face it. many of it's biggest hits are much better than the obscure things that  sometimes get raved about. Often the emperor has most definitely lost his clothes. The strange  thing is that many of the biggest and best Motown hits have never received any time at NS events. Yet other records not as good have. E.g The Tams chart-topping Hey Girl Don't Bother Me which must have been played at least once at every Wigan oldies night  I went to. . I bet there are people on the northern scene who've never danced to Get Ready or You Keep  Me hanging On. and would probably run off the floor if they were played. Very strange. In a sense their lack of airplay gives these records a kind of  rarity on the northern scene.  

They played Stoned Love at Hamburg soul weekender at the allnighter in October!

 

[David Moore]

Northern soul definitely a scene not a genre all different styles of soul played over the years  and let s face it some awful pop records Gary Lewis Hawaii five-0  Joe 90 , etc

[Guest]

Someone once said that it does not have to be soul to be Northern Soul! A clever man.

[Guest]

Who can say that this is NOT Northern Soul?

 

[Bruv]

On ‎25‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 21:16, MotownSoulMan said:

David Meikle BabyBoyAndMyLass I never got to Up The Junction. I was in my 2nd full year in the Armed Forces and was having the pleasure of walking the streets of Northern Ireland. In fact, the first full "Soul night" I really got to attend was on April 14th 1977 and was an out and out Motown night at a club called The Maison Royale in Bournemouth. I remember because that's where I met Carrie, and we married 2 years later, and still are married.

Nice to see the Maison Royale mentioned on the site MotownSoulMan I put some time in there in the late 1970's pleased to see you met Carrie your future wife in that famous Bournemouth Night Club. Memories for me is coming out on two late Friday nights running and on both occasions my pals Ford Corsair had been stolen, couldn't believe are eyes when it happened for the second time, oh know the car's been nicked again!  

[Motownsoulman]

Bruv Cheers for putting the photo up mate. That don't half bring back some happy memories. We had some great nights there, and I can't remember there ever being any agro in there.

Funny you should mention about your mates Ford Corsair though, cuz I remember one of the lads from Broadstone having all 4 wheels taken from his mini, where it was parked just up the road. He couldn't get it moved that day, and when he and some mates went back for it on the Sunday, someone had broken the boot open in the meantime, and nicked the spare too