Just pulled Isaac Hayes 'Disco Connection' off the shelf to play it for my own purposes. I haven't played the 45 for yonks as I always played myself the longer album version..but I digress. The styrene 45 is f*****. It's easily and cheaply replaced, but it set me thinking.

Will all those great Mercury 45's (for instance) and all the other rarer styrene stuff be harder to come by in the future as they wear out?

I don't know.

Cheers Pete, I thought of all people you would have !

  Simon White said:

Cheers Pete, I thought of all people you would have !

Well actually I think you're right. I'd have thought 90% more styrene records get damaged by cue burn that vinyl...plus they're easier to break and a heavy tone arm will ruin them for good. Styrene really is the curse of the record collector.

In record collecting terms and values, I think its going to be a serious problem. I bought a copy of Jimmy Normans 'Family Tree' on Mercury in not great but OK nick the other weeks and I've noticed a further deterioration after playing it just a few times. Another 45, a colllection filler, got left on a turntable and it didnt reject after play and I didnt realise for about ten minutes. When I looked there was a small but significent amount of plastic carved out of the run out groove.

Have to admit , I take much more care nowadays with my 45s. It's something that will eventually effect buying records too. Many record sellers don't play their sales but rather rely on a visual inspection. This can lead to dramas. I've had a few Styrene through that have had to be returned. Many part time sellers (Ebay etc) are not even aware of the Styrene issue so even if it it plays with the beginning of Styrene hiss they don't mention it.

Hopefully I'll expire before the Styrene does!

Regards ,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

I think Vinyl smells nicer than styrene too.........

Edited December 11, 200618 yr by John May

  John May said:

I think Vinyl smells nicer than styrene too.........

At the risk of sounding like a pervert, I get a little kick from the smell of an acetate if I'm flicking through records.

  Simon White said:

In record collecting terms and values, I think its going to be a serious problem. I bought a copy of Jimmy Normans 'Family Tree' on Mercury in not great but OK nick the other weeks and I've noticed a further deterioration after playing it just a few times. Another 45, a colllection filler, got left on a turntable and it didnt reject after play and I didnt realise for about ten minutes. When I looked there was a small but significent amount of plastic carved out of the run out groove.

Simon, if your Jimmy Norman 45 is deteriorating maybe its your pick up or stylus that is the problem. Years ago I had a turntable that whenever I played a styrene disc it damaged it as the wieght of the pick up was too heavy. I have loads of styrene 45s which I have owned for over 30 years and they play fine. I think it is really down to the equiptment they are played on. Over the years, if I have bought a new player, I have always tried it out with a rubbish b-side before i risked one of my favourite disks......just a thought.

Ian

  Ringleader said:

Simon, if your Jimmy Norman 45 is deteriorating maybe its your pick up or stylus that is the problem. Years ago I had a turntable that whenever I played a styrene disc it damaged it as the wieght of the pick up was too heavy. I have loads of styrene 45s which I have owned for over 30 years and they play fine. I think it is really down to the equiptment they are played on. Over the years, if I have bought a new player, I have always tried it out with a rubbish b-side before i risked one of my favourite disks......just a thought.

Ian

Hi Ian, its two different turntables and very lightweight arms. I think a slightly older stylus can make a less than mint 45 sound worse than it is sometimes. One thing I did find out once is that a mint unplayed styrene 45 on Colossuss we wanted to master from had loads of surface noise on some turntables and none at all on others. I asked someone and they suggested (I think..it was a while ago now!) that it was to do with the a combintaion of the way a stylus had been worn on one side or another due to the balance of the arm ect so it would sound different on different turntables or styluses.

Yeah.....just replace your stylus regular! I played a mint copy of the Capitals - dont say maybe baby on a worn Stanton 500 on a Technics 1200.........it played a bad hiss on the Soulful breaks (which it had never done before) ...... I was confused so cleaned it..........played again.............sounded worse. Played it again on a brand new needle, sounded 90% better and has even improved with plays. Styrene is strange stuff and needs a fantastic needle i think.

I was asking around as to why tunes were produced both in styrene and Vinyl - Like Jimmy Ricks Oh what a feeling demos for example can be found on vinyl and styrene.....and it seems that this was due to the transport costs of hauling music accross the states.........If a track was produced on the west coast then all the discs that were distributed around the west coast were in vinyl........if the same track was to be shipped to the east coast then it was produced in styrene, due to it being much lighter and cheaper to move? Anyone shed anymore light onto this..............and why have i never ever owned a Golden World 45 that has been made of vinyl? Questions........Questions

  Simon White said:

Just pulled Isaac Hayes 'Disco Connection' off the shelf to play it for my own purposes. I haven't played the 45 for yonks as I always played myself the longer album version..but I digress. The styrene 45 is f*****. It's easily and cheaply replaced, but it set me thinking.

Will all those great Mercury 45's (for instance) and all the other rarer styrene stuff be harder to come by in the future as they wear out?

Hi. In addition to "needle burn", I was shocked to discover several years ago that many of my 70's styrene records (particularly BUDDAH, but others too) have faint hairline cracks! - and that on BRAND NEW, factory fresh copies! I don't look too closely at 'em nowadays... My heart won't stand it! As long as they play OK.

Incidently, a mate of mine purchased a copy of Mel Britt for £350 from a well known dealer about 10 years ago, only to find it was literally unlistenable with hiss. Naturally, he returned it and complained, to which the dealer replied;

"Ah well, the Japanese will have it" (!)

Blame the DJs for screwing up all the styrene records though - I've seen the way they treat their records, and it amounts to abuse in my book! There oughta be a law...

  mel brat said:

Hi. In addition to "needle burn", I was shocked to discover several years ago that many of my 70's styrene records (particularly BUDDAH, but others too) have faint hairline cracks! - and that on BRAND NEW, factory fresh copies! I don't look too closely at 'em nowadays... My heart won't stand it! As long as they play OK.

Incidently, a mate of mine purchased a copy of Mel Britt for £350 from a well known dealer about 10 years ago, only to find it was literally unlistenable with hiss. Naturally, he returned it and complained, to which the dealer replied;

"Ah well, the Japanese will have it" (!)

Blame the DJs for screwing up all the styrene records though - I've seen the way they treat their records, and it amounts to abuse in my book! There oughta be a law...

Stylus "chip" away at styrene every time you play it, make sure you have the right weight, tracking and a high quality stylus and replace a worn stylus ASAP.

But one of the most destructive elements for styrene is the SLEEVE you keep them in.

Cardboard sleeves are full of ACID you should file your styrene inside poly innersm, or those lovely Japanese thin (almost rice paper thickness) inners, made from a poly type material I don't knowe the name of. Sleeves attack styrene and vinyl every minute inside those popular card sleeves, styrene is more suseptable to damage.

Lastly the harlines you often experience with 70s styrene especially Buddah are often hairline fractures on the METAL STAMPING DISC not you record, check out MVPs every copy has the same "Hairline crack" that isn't.

Interesting thread. I have several discs that have a burn on the intro and I know exactly when this happen, DJing at venues with poor equipment. I have a Technics 1210 at home with a Stanton 505 head. Play some of my fav records day in day out on this with no problem. But then take them out and one play on S*"t turntables and they are damaged. Some house DJ's carry thier own heads with them and change the club ones before djing. Now days I always check the decks and weight settings before I DJ. I feel promoters need to make sure they hire the best equipment they can when running events and not cut costs. The sound should be everything, but sadly that does not always seem to be the case. I've heard SOME promoters say "You dj's are always moaning about equipment", well yes, people pay good money to hear thier fav tunes. So they should get the best possible if they have paid to get in. Also, with the value of many records now days there is nothing worse than coming home with a record devalued by 50% cuz of the equipment you played on the night before.

Edited December 13, 200618 yr by Dave Thorley

  john manship said:

Stylus "chip" away at styrene every time you play it, make sure you have the right weight, tracking and a high quality stylus and replace a worn stylus ASAP.

But one of the most destructive elements for styrene is the SLEEVE you keep them in.

Cardboard sleeves are full of ACID you should file your styrene inside poly innersm, or those lovely Japanese thin (almost rice paper thickness) inners, made from a poly type material I don't knowe the name of. Sleeves attack styrene and vinyl every minute inside those popular card sleeves, styrene is more suseptable to damage.

Lastly the harlines you often experience with 70s styrene especially Buddah are often hairline fractures on the METAL STAMPING DISC not you record, check out MVPs every copy has the same "Hairline crack" that isn't.

I've only ever seen one copy of the MVP's that didn't have that line on it.

  Simon White said:

Just pulled Isaac Hayes 'Disco Connection' off the shelf to play it for my own purposes. I haven't played the 45 for yonks as I always played myself the longer album version..but I digress. The styrene 45 is f*****. It's easily and cheaply replaced, but it set me thinking.

Will all those great Mercury 45's (for instance) and all the other rarer styrene stuff be harder to come by in the future as they wear out?

OK, suppose not everybody knows the difference between styrene and vinyl... can you explain?

  eedeecee said:

OK, suppose not everybody knows the difference between styrene and vinyl... can you explain?

Styrene is brittle, cheap plastic which is very inflexible and will snap if you were to try to bend it. Styrene records have stuck on labels.

Vinyl is more flexible and hardwearing, labels are always moulded on.

in my experience limiting the weight on the stylus is not as important for preventing damage to styrene records as the alignment of the stylus...it really must be straight up and down, perpendicular to the grooves.

one interesting thing is that a hissy monophonic styrene record can be given new life if you play it with a mono needle instead of the standard stereo needle. the mono needle hits the groove where it was intended to be hit, avoiding damage previously caused by stereo needles hitting it not quite where it was intended to be hit, if you follow me.

  Pete-S said:

Styrene is brittle, cheap plastic which is very inflexible and will snap if you were to try to bend it. Styrene records have stuck on labels.

Vinyl is more flexible and hardwearing, labels are always moulded on.

Jeez Pete - I've now lost untold copies of Johnny Bragg on Elbejay trying to educate myself!

  Pete-S said:

I've only ever seen one copy of the MVP's that didn't have that line on it.

you didn't look hard enough, it's not obvious but it is there.

Or are you disagreeing cause Leicester City beat Wolves easily. The most common "fault" on 70s styrene (not Wolves) is the Y looking hairline, which again ain't hairline but a metal stamping plate fracture.

  john manship said:

you didn't look hard enough, it's not obvious but it is there.

Or are you disagreeing cause Leicester City beat Wolves easily. The most common "fault" on 70s styrene (not Wolves) is the Y looking hairline, which again ain't hairline but a metal stamping plate fracture.

'Tis true! This is on my copy of Frank Dell 'He Broke Your Game Wide Open'.

I thought Styrene records were injection moulded, and vinyl ones were stamped.

  pikeys dog said:

I thought Styrene records were injection moulded, and vinyl ones were stamped.

Styrene (properly, Polystyrene).

Hard, relatively inflexible plastic used to press records, mainly 7-inch

singles, mainly using the Injection Moulding process. The material is heated

to a liquid form and is then squirted or injected into the closed stampers

in the press. This requires that the labels be either glued or painted on

after the record leaves the press. The cost savings to the manufacturer

comes from the extended life of the stampers because of the lack of a

heating cycle to the stampers. The material can also be reused without

noticeable change to its moulding properties. Styrene records will therefore

usually have very quiet surfaces when found in an UNPLAYED Mint condition,

but unfortunately they will wear to a noisy condition rapidly, especially if

played with a bad stylus or an improperly tracking tone arm. They also are

more prone to Cue Burn. The Columbia Records Pittman, New Jersey pressing

plant was once the major source of Injection Moulded Styrene pressings, and

pressings from this plant are found on MANY small labels. Look for the

glued-on labels. Painted-on labels can be found on records from the

Amy/Bell/Mala group.

Vinyl (properly Polyvinyl Chloride).

Relatively flexible material used since the early 1930s to make

non-breakable records. Its fumes are an acknowledged carcinogen, so don't

breathe in deeply when you have your next holy burning of Beatles or

back-masked devil-worship records. :-) Usually pressed by Compression

Moulding which allows the label to be an integral part of the pressing

itself. This process also requires that there be extra material which spills

out the sides of the press, therefore this extra material is routinely

ground up and re-used. Because vinyl does not re-heat and re-cool to a

smooth, glossy surface, the excessive use of re-grind mixed in with Virgin

Vinyl can account for the inherently noisy surface of even unplayed Mint

examples of the cheap pressings that some record companies used. Noise can

be seen AND HEARD by looking at and/or playing the un-grooved surface of the

lead-in and lead-out areas. If this area looks or sounds grainy, then the

grooves will also have some of this grainy background sound. The stampers

used for the compression moulding process will start to break down after

only 1,000 pressings because they are forced to expand and contract when

heated by steam at the start of the pressing cycle and then cooled to

solidify the record. Some companies routinely overused their stampers for

their pop record series.

I've had a nightmare with styrene.....bought a Jesse Johnson that was muffed like that, and my Little Tommy is pretty worn too.

Also the hairline crack thing in styrene is a complete shocker....nearly fainted when I found that on one styrene record, checked the others and found more of the same.....scary!

  john manship said:

you didn't look hard enough, it's not obvious but it is there.

Or are you disagreeing cause Leicester City beat Wolves easily. The most common "fault" on 70s styrene (not Wolves) is the Y looking hairline, which again ain't hairline but a metal stamping plate fracture.

No, it wasn't there. It wasn't there. It wasn't there. This copy did not have it. And it was an issue.

Anyway, I doubt if it's a "fracture" it's more likely to do with it being a kind of seal. Not the mammal either.

  Dave Thorley said:

Interesting thread. I have several discs that have a burn on the intro and I know exactly when this happen, DJing at venues with poor equipment. I have a Technics 1210 at home with a Stanton 505 head. Play some of my fav records day in day out on this with no problem. But then take them out and one play on S*"t turntables and they are damaged. Some house DJ's carry thier own heads with them and change the club ones before djing. Now days I always check the decks and weight settings before I DJ. I feel promoters need to make sure they hire the best equipment they can when running events and not cut costs. The sound should be everything, but sadly that does not always seem to be the case. I've heard SOME promoters say "You dj's are always moaning about equipment", well yes, people pay good money to hear thier fav tunes. So they should get the best possible if they have paid to get in. Also, with the value of many records now days there is nothing worse than coming home with a record devalued by 50% cuz of the equipment you played on the night before.

"Cueing in" the record doesn't help either! On the rare occasions I have DJ'd I never place the stylus on the record until the turntable is moving first! Have bought several styrene "ex-DJ" records in the past with hiss on intro caused by this practice, once common among DJs, perhaps less so now they've knackered up so many of their records! LOL

  mel brat said:

"Cueing in" the record doesn't help either! On the rare occasions I have DJ'd I never place the stylus on the record until the turntable is moving first! Have bought several styrene "ex-DJ" records in the past with hiss on intro caused by this practice, once common among DJs, perhaps less so now they've knackered up so many of their records! LOL

Very good Djing practice, not stopping your records - have you had a go at house music....i bet you would be great