Soul Source guide to record collecting.

[Guest BabyBoyAndMyLass]

Been wanting to do this so here goes.

I'd like to create a thread pooling some of the vast amount of knowledge contained on site by the esteemed membership. I'd like it to be informative, in fact definitive, a guide for people who are embarking on the hobby/obsession.

I'd like it to contain info on identifying an Original 45, the resources used to find this info, the methods used to establish the identifying features of a rare record, obviously Soul will be a big feature. The research that goes into this once a record is in your 'wants' category, price research, resources relating to price/availability.

Repairs, cleaning and importantly maintaining the condition of your investment once acquired.

Assume that you're aiming posts at the un-initiated but enthusiastic to learn more. Not asking for trade secrets but general info on sourcing, verifying, buying and curating valuable/rare 45s please.

The thinking behind this is that we have here a vast amount of knowledge and experience in this field so would like to create a document that future enthusiasts can use to help them dip their toe in the waters.

Thanks folks, looking forward to this one because my own knowledge is very limited and being a member here has been very helpful with this but would like to gather info all in one handy place, again thanks!

[Roburt]

A good place to start ID'ing rare releases is maybe to list the 'tax scam' labels that only pressed up a few copies (or pressed up 500 / 1000 copies & then immediately junked the vast majority of them).

Some obvious tax scam labels were Guinness (Frank Dell, Roger Hatcher), Emkay (Hypnotics, Otis Williams), Tiger Lily, Tomorrow, TSG, etc.   ... BUT ... there must be quite a few more of them ... 

  

Edited July 17, 2018 by Roburt

[Kev John]

Another good place for reference for when records were  originally pressed & repressed in the US 

https://www.anorakscorner.com/PressingPlantInfo.html

[Kenb]

Dedwax.

Get yourself a good (magnifyer) eyeglass (with a backlight). Check the run-out's and matrix against good sources. Make notes of what you buy/have.

https://playlists.christmachine.com/cutting-vinyl/dead-wax-deadwax-list-full-length-continued-from-main-day-page/

https://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/deadwax-inscription-ids-needed.120633/

good luck

Ken

[grouse]

https://45rpmrecords.com/date_monarch.php

Alternative to above

 

Edited July 19, 2018 by grouse

[grouse]

On ‎17‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 10:35, Kev John said:

Another good place for reference for when records were  originally pressed & repressed in the US 

https://www.anorakscorner.com/PressingPlantInfo.html

Just had a good look at this one from Dave Flynn's website, It's just about everything you need to know.

[Chalky]

A more comprehensive Monarch dating guide....remember not only Monarch used the Delta number system, other pressing companies such as Alco used it too.  Each plant has their own stamp but all will use the delta triangle followed by one of the numbers in the chart  

From discogs....

Monarch Stamp

 

Alco Stamp

Edited July 20, 2018 by chalky

[Joesoap]

Back in the 80s when I used to hunt records fairly obsessively, finding out about the delta numbers was like a revelation. It's not that difficult really, you just need to have some awareness of when the first digit was used and when it went from 5 to 6 digits.

Edited July 20, 2018 by JoeSoap

[Guest BabyBoyAndMyLass]

Going well so far folks thanks very much!

[Girdwoodinc]

Don't do it

 

Seriously though - research, research, research (price guides, internet prices, websites listed above, soul source)...and don't listen to what anyone says about a tune, if you love it buy it (don't buy anything you don't love)...always keep a small pot available as wants always come up when you've spent up...set yourself a reasonable monthly limit (will vary for everyone)...and most of all, enjoy it - if you're not enjoying it you shouldn't be doing it...

 

ps it doesn't matter a bollocks if you DJ or not, and if you're only in it to DJ then I don't think collecting is for you

[Guest Gogs]

Just look at my question about the "benny troy iwtgyt" thread" and will see what a minefield this can be

[Larsc]

If you want to be able to understand deadwax from other plants than Monarch you can use this forum thread:

https://www.discogs.com/forum/thread/743281

Discogs is becoming an ever more informative site. And it's useful to look up represses and bootlegs. Just remember that the discogs term for a bootleg is "unofficial".

[dthedrug]

Hi All - Well I have collected record since 1965 over the first few years I collected MOD/POP from 68 to 72 REGGAE was my bag with SOUL in 2nd place, got most of my records in SOHO & Brixton, In those days my info come from Blues & Soul Mag it was my bible, I tried to buy as many new releases as I could from Contempos, all though I did a bit of DJing, it was nothing compared to doing some spots with Billy Mac & Mick Smith this is when my Rare Soul Roots come from,

Now most of my tips on record collecting are well known today, However I will start by making my statement on the subject of NOC what's NOC well it stands for no origanal centre, As with most people who started collecting rare soul in the early7ts, you got most of your records from junk shops markets or shops selling discount records, so goes without saying to find a rare record in any condition was a find to brag about and to find a UK DEMO 45 was almost imposable, However in the last twenty years or so the new kids on the block seem to not value UK records with NOC as much as they should, this why issue without a centre will do until you find a better copy, but when it comes to DEMO's my veiw is most DEMO'S without a centre in was sent to a DJ at the time, now some DEMO's come in small numbers EMI typically made 50, to promote a record, most went to Radio Stations a few went to music journalists, those sent to DJ's were in the main had the centre knocked out so it could be played, So knowing this I have always treated a NOC DEMO as how it comes it was meant to be like this part of it's history, UK SOULL DEMOS are rare no matter how much you pay, the more you spend on a record does not & never did make a record rarer, the fact that every US 45 has the centre dinked (well not every 45) so why are collectors today always searching for the impossible find in having MINT 45s is mad 7 expensive, that's all for now and it my opinion. KTF

[Roburt]

Everyone will know this, but for completeness on this thread ....

old 78's and acetates are great to collect, just don't play the original disc much at all (or you'll probably ruin them) ...

[Chalky]

6 hours ago, Roburt said:

Everyone will know this, but for completeness on this thread ....

old 78's and acetates are great to collect, just don't play the original disc much at all (or you'll probably ruin them) ...

 

Much at all? Probably? It is a bit ambiguous your comment? I know of acetates that are 20/30 years old, played with frequency and still fine.  All depends how you look after them.

Edited July 31, 2018 by chalky

[Roburt]

Another format introduced back in the mid to late 60's that are fun to collect (good to frame up as wall hangings in a record room) ...

HIP-POCKET RECORDS ....   only cost 69c & usually discounted to 39c as the format never really caught on ...

Edited August 1, 2018 by Roburt

[Bbrich]

If a seller says 'very rare only a handful known to exist' you might think they mean less than 5 i.e. less than the number of fingers on one hand........  but they might mean how many a strong large handed person could balance on their hand i.e. in this style.... (possibly even a lot more than this pile)

 

Edited August 9, 2018 by bbrich
mistyped

[Bbrich]

On 31/07/2018 at 06:16, dthedrug said:

when it comes to DEMO's my veiw is most DEMO'S without a centre in was sent to a DJ at the time, now some DEMO's come in small numbers EMI typically made 50, to promote a record, most went to Radio Stations a few went to music journalists, those sent to DJ's were in the main had the centre knocked out

I have marvin gaye 60's demos, stateside and tmg - I have been told they would have made about 500 demos for an artist like that - do you think it could have been a lot less? if so very interesting. Mine are M, M- or EX+ and all have the centre, one has 'radio station copy' stamped on it. 

[Modernsoulsucks]

Most demos I've seen [and that's a lot] don't have the centre knocked out.

 

If we're talking Motown in early to mid-70's you'd see a lot of TMG's with no centre but they were 70's issues that had been on juke boxes.

[dthedrug]

On ‎09‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 14:08, bbrich said:

I have marvin gaye 60's demos, stateside and tmg - I have been told they would have made about 500 demos for an artist like that - do you think it could have been a lot less? if so very interesting. Mine are M, M- or EX+ and all have the centre, one has 'radio station copy' stamped on it. 

Hi your info is wrong, 500 Stateside Motown DEMO's well if you believe that, sit down and think about it? here's a question for you & anybody who reads this, perhaps the biggest Stateside/Motown 45s was "Baby Love" the Supremes' have you got a demo, when was the last time you see it for sale? have you ever seen a copy when you are out & about? at a record fair maybe? if the answer to this is yes well you would be a collector just like me!, but if the answer is no and I have a copy, where are the other 499? once you track them down you can look for a demo of "my guy" Mary Wells, ….I'm sure you get my gist? KTF

[Bbrich]

Well i'm not surprised as so far no one has ever given me any sort of definitive answer as to how how many stateside or tmg demos were put out. Which in itself is quite surprising as i would have thought there would have been a company policy on how many to press up, maybe determined by popularity of artist. Then to me the interesting question is how many that were pressed still exist today, especially those in m or m- condition? makes me think that such stateside/tmg demos are under valued compared to some so called rare us pressed records.

[dthedrug]

HI ALL,

Here we are again!  a couple of personal tip's and can I stress again my remarks are based on 50 years of collecting and are my opinions not those of Soul Source although they may agree with my sentiment?

I'll start with a bit more stuff on UK Demos, only the other day I remembered that when I worked as a roadie in both PA & Lighting back in the mid 7ts, that while working at some MECCA or TOP RANK establishment, behind the DJ Booth I found some records all DEMOS plus a bit of opened mail, one letter had a list of names & addresses of members of the music trade, dance hall managers and DJs Radio company's & their DJs the list was from EMI Records and had all those people who received all the latest releases to be reviewed each record was reviewed at least 5 weeks before the month and day of the release, so for example review discs sent in June were for release in August, now you would think there was many on the list but it seemed they were selective in who receive the type & genre of the music and only the DJS got the biggest pile then the music critic's in the music press like Melody Maker & NME AS I have previously mentioned Radio Station Producers or DJs knocked the centres out of DEMOs in the 6ts not till Phonogram got the rights to many labels in the UK was the start of company dinked records come along we then saw the end of knock out centre  Now this sheet of who got what was how I gained knowledge on the subject I gave the list away to Ady C as he might of found it even more useful than I did.

Next now we have ascertained the estimated number of UK DEMOS, we will mention a bit about what I consider as part of the DEMOS history, or what is now called "writing on the label", now like it not if you worked as a DJ in the 6ts & received a Disc to review it goes without saying the stations admin dept & your producer would put some markings on it, some would be to identify the preferred side, some if not all depending on the station would put a record into their library, many records at the BBC landed up there? only to be knicked or sold of cheap when a fresh copy come along, the were more into having a complete record library based on sound quality not on collectability,  This leads me to a few DEMOS that I have with black permanent marker blanking out the words NOT FOR SALE, I was informed the reason for this was a shop owner really got worried that the record company would fine them if sold to the public however most of these type were old stock sent to EMI Company's who had shares in shops that sold record players and records.

Well that's all for now. KTF

[Twoshoes]

On the subject of demos don't know if this adds anything to the pot or will even be of interest, in the early seventies I dated for alas too short a time  lass who's older brother was a Dj at the Nevada in Bolton. She knew I collected Soul records and on my one and only visit to her house she let me into the caravan her brother used in the garden, can't remember why the caravan was there but that's by the by, the floor of said caravan was littered with demos of all genre's of music, literally hundreds of records. She told me to help myself, not having dated her for too long I showed admirable restraint thinking I would get a second chance of picking some stuff. I came away with several JayBoy Demos, a few Motown green and whites and some deep soul stuff by the likes of Dee Dee Warwicke and Irma Thomas on Atco and Atlantic respectively. From memory the Nevada was a general dance hall and skating rink so whoever sent out the demos wasn't concerned with sending out just the potential pop hits of the day as I think it very doubtful either Dee Dee or Irma would have got played there.

[Roburt]

For collectors only -- US & UK broadcast organisations in-house records ... oddities that some like to acquire ...

[Guest]

I will make several postings in this thread, the first one could be viewed as a negative one to some readers, however, this thread was partly touted as a helpful guide to beginners, so here goes. 

The one type of collector that I have absolutely no time whatsoever for, is "the trophy hunter" who invariably will have a wants list comprised of nothing other than in demand or high priced titles, yet when questioned may not even have the low to mid priced items that should form the foundations of any good collection. Worse still, they often don't want to buy them as they have perceived any item worth only five quid, isn't worth their attention. These punters often sell up the limited number of records they have bought after a few years which then leaves one wondering why they bought the records to begin with. 

I made a habit of always gauging what level of collecting a customer was at before selling multiple hard to find items to them. If as a boogie collector they didn't have for example the Change, BB&Q, Aurra, Slave, SOS Band, Confunkshun, Cameo, Starpoint (Chocolate City), LP's, and showed no interest in them when I recommended them, then I had no need to sell them a copy of a rare 12" I could easily sell to another collector who I knew had all of the aforementioned. It should be noted that I was selling those LP's at fair prices too. I say this as a deterrent to any new collector ignoring low to mid priced major label LP's for example, as there is nothing clever in my opinion about buying 1 x £50 7" single for 2 songs, unless they are truly mind blowing and the record is scarce, when you could buy 10 x £5 LP's, or 6 x £8 LP's, containing many more hours of pleasure yet for the same money. Common sense is an important factor in building a good collection. 

 

Edited November 28, 2018 by Guest

[maslar]

On 11/11/2018 at 12:15, Twoshoes said:

On the subject of demos don't know if this adds anything to the pot or will even be of interest, in the early seventies I dated for alas too short a time  lass who's older brother was a Dj at the Nevada in Bolton. She knew I collected Soul records and on my one and only visit to her house she let me into the caravan her brother used in the garden, can't remember why the caravan was there but that's by the by, the floor of said caravan was littered with demos of all genre's of music, literally hundreds of records. She told me to help myself, not having dated her for too long I showed admirable restraint thinking I would get a second chance of picking some stuff. I came away with several JayBoy Demos, a few Motown green and whites and some deep soul stuff by the likes of Dee Dee Warwicke and Irma Thomas on Atco and Atlantic respectively. From memory the Nevada was a general dance hall and skating rink so whoever sent out the demos wasn't concerned with sending out just the potential pop hits of the day as I think it very doubtful either Dee Dee or Irma would have got played there.

I knew/know ( i haven't seen him for a while) a guy who was collecting back in the 60s. He had the full set of all UK Tamla releases on demo I'm not sure when his cut off was but he had collected every 60s Tamla inc all pre-TM label releases on demo. He sold most of it off over the years. Obviously  I was impressed but he made a point that it was somewhat easier than what it sounded. He worked as  a semi-pro (I think ) dj and got sent lots of Tamla demos (not all of them obviously) . He said that  if regular djing at reasonable club you'd get sent lots of stuff free.  

I asked what the hardest one was - the last to finish the full run. He thought it was Sweet Thing. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by maslar

[maslar]

In my opinion the best way to learn about record collecting is to collect an artist (preferably one you like/admire). Your favourite artist might be a good start. Through starting off obtaining all the standard issues you'll learn about standard issues, variations, originals, reissues, demos, promos, foreign releases, picture sleeves, acetates demos etc etc. 

 

[Guest]

My second posting here opens with a question and answer. Give me one of the many good reasons as to why I have a good collection? How about because I have always taken chances when faced with a pile of titles in front of me that I don't already know, that might turn out to be a potential bargain if the price is right. My favourite example was at a car boot, Hook Road, Epsom, 9 June 1996. I'd heard through a car boot record dealer friend, about a couple who he'd seen at other car boots in previous weeks including Wimbledon, who had several boxes of Japanese LP's that he thought might interest me. He hadn't bought any of them himself as he had no idea what style they were and they weren't priced low enough for him to want to take a chance. I already owned in the region of 100+ Japanese LP's, mostly jazz fusion by Japanese artists.

By pure luck the couple turned up at Epsom that day. They were English. I can't recall how they'd come by the records but they too had no idea what they were and were getting tired of carting them around by now, every weekend with minimal punter interest. Even before I started looking through the records, almost all which were LP's but for a few 12", I was seriously excited. However, no matter how interesting the sleeves appeared, and if you've ever looked at quantities of Jap LP's you cannot fail to notice the quality of the artwork, the photography, and the attention to detail in the credits, there wasn't a single LP I already knew, and worse still, bar a few artists, I had never heard of any of the others, all Japanese. There were about 150 records in total. They looked like pop LP's, though thankfully from 1980 to 1984, and most of the artists were female, but of the Jap pop LP's I already had in my collection, all had at least one good soul or boogie track and the synths and bass playing were the overwhelming features.

I'd already made up my mind as long as they were cheap I would have to buy the lot of them, I couldn't walk away from this potential goldmine of Japanese boogie even if it turned out there were only a handful worth keeping. It was only at the end did a price get mentioned, I think they said just give us £30 (it was no more than that as I recall) as we're fed up of carrying them around. What a potential result. Even if they'd said 50p each I'd have taken the lot as I perceived the risk of not doing so to be too high. 

So I got them home and the challenge begun. I knew there would be no middle ground here and that's how it proved. Sadly the majority were awful pop but I checked absolutely every track on every LP, twice, as those I dismissed first time round I went back to a few days later. I am relentless, no matter how poor the first bunch of tracks on an LP may be, I listen to the lot. In the end I kept about 20 items which included some that contained truly outstanding tracks, some of which are below, strictly with the 80's boogie collector in mind. All the tracks are sung in Japanese, musicianship is mind blowing.

The motto of this posting is that you will only get out what you're prepared to put in with this pastime. Buy with an attitude of not being prepared to take chances, and you'll end up with the collection that reflects such, one that is likely to be just average. What made this example so rewarding was the fact I knew next to nothing about what I was buying but it paid off. I am unlikely to have ever experienced these tracks otherwise.

 

Stunning artwork, one of my favourite sleeves. It's the first track only.

 

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by Guest