A youth culture left in the hands of old men'

[Chalky]

I guess for most we pine for the scene as it once was.  A fabulous place to be, with an edge, a sense of trepidation and anticipation of the night to come.  It was the travelling to hear music you couldn't hear at home or on a tape you swapped, travelling to hear a certain Dj.  Dancing to these records lost in a world that took you away from the weekly pressure of life. Digging through all the records on offer form the dealers, looking at all the markings and stamps, names and credits, a real thirst for knowledge in an attempt to be on the same level as your peers or to get one step ahead of the other collectors/Djs. 

Now? Everyone is obsessed with looking like a soulie, a style of fashion that was prevalent for a couple of years in the mid 70s and had disappeared by the 80s.  The dancers more interested in throwing themselves about than actually dancing.  What I said above wasn't a dig at anyone just an observation and the difference between when I first began this journey and today.  People danced to the record with the moves replicating the beat and the breaks, not anymore, as I said they aren't dancing. I still love to watch good dancers, good footwork especially. Far too many are obsessed with the look and the fashion when the scene was never one to follow fashion, it was about the music and the friendships forged.

Record bars are virtually dead with most buying from their armchair after getting the answers to questions online rather than learning by handling the records.  No longer are tapes, well CDs swapped, hearing records you over looked or not in favour with Djs.  For the vast majority it is the same few hundred records (if that) replicated on the newest CD release, the same titles on a dozen CDs before them and the same records they hear week in week out from the same Djs with nothing new or imaginative to offer all promoted by the same promoters week in week out who don't have the imagination to see a bigger picture and take what they can while they can (that is all the promoters virtually up and down the country not anyone in particular).  Djs who spend ridiculous amounts on not so rare records, it is all about who can spend the most rather than using some imagination for which the scene would be a better place.  Dancers who daren't go on the floor to something they haven't heard a 100 times for fear of putting a foot out of place.

There is some great youngsters out there, Jordan & Charlotte, Ethan and more.  They have the same enthusiasm we did and it isn't about looking like a soulie, they have a thirst to learn, to dig for records and to dance, many of them properly.  But they are few and far between on the nighter scene that is largely dominated by those described in the title of this topic. 

That is what I mean by the scene being a parody of what it was was,  It is a pale imitation of a great underground dance culture.  I'm not bitter nor salty, I still have an great appetite for the music, to learn and share any knowledge with anyone but I often go out and wonder WTF am I doing here at 2 or 3 in the morning after enduring a boring few hours of records I've heard a million times.  If anyone is guilty of not moving on it isn't me.

Edited June 8, 2018 by chalky

[Mark S]

2 hours ago, Leicester boy said:

The saltiness and bitterness by some on here to the present day scene is both sad and frankly wrong. You're like the great footballer of the past who does not play anymore but takes his joy from having a go at present day footballers.you can enjoy what you had at the start of the scene without your constant moaning about the present day scene. Anyway rant over I'm of to find a more positive forum.

Did you find a more positive forum then ?

A good moan is all part of the fun dont get yòur baggies in a twist 

[Colnago]

1 hour ago, Soulsides said:

It's the same with some of the 'old guard' on the majority of  scenes you'll encounter not just Northern Soul ..a tiny fraction just cant let go and move forward with the times .

The problem is this- certain people are so fanatical about the music they're into that they somehow think it belongs exclusively to them and them only...it's almost as if they recorded the tracks themselves which as a musician I find hilarious personally.

Listen, music isn't ever made by recording artists to be left to sit on a shelf unplayed or stashed away in the hands of greedy record dealers or only owned by some close minded minority ,its made and then released and meant to be all inclusive for anyone who hears and likes it.

When those notes on a record leave those grooves they belong to everyone not just to some exclusive select few in some elite imaginary club which is only ever open in the back of their own minds..

fcuk that type of attitude and ignore it ,its just utter nonsense .

It’s the fanatism for the top 500 that keeps me away from the oldies events. 

[Peter99]

3 minutes ago, chalky said:

I guess for most we pine for the scene as it once was.  A fabulous place to be, with an edge a sense of trepidation and anticipation of the night to come.  It was the travelling to hear music you couldn't hear at home or on a tape you swapped, travelling to hear a certain Dj.  Dancing to these records lost in a world that took you away from the weekly pressure of life. Digging through all the records on offer form the dealers, looking at all the marking, names and credits, a real christ for knowledge in an attempt to be on the same level as your peers or to get one step ahead of the other collectors/Djs. 

Now? Everyone is obsessed with looking like a soulie, a style of fashion that was prevalent for a couple of years in the mid 70s and had disappeared by the 80s.  The dancers more interested in throwing themselves about than actually dancing.  What I said above wasn't a dig at anyone just an observation and the difference from when I first began this journey and today.  People danced to the record with the moves replicating the beat and the breaks, not anymore, a s I said they aren't dancing. I still love to watch good dancers, good footwork especially. Far too many are obsessed with the look and the fashion when the scene was never one to follow fashion, it was about the music and the friendships forged.

Record bars are virtually dead with most buying from their armchair after getting the answers to questions online rather than learning by handling the records.  No longer are tapes, well CDs swapped, hearing records you over looked.  For the vast majority it is the same few hundred records (if that) replicated on the newest CD release, titles on a dozen CDs before them and the same records they hear week in week out from the same Djs with nothing new or imaginative to offer all promoted by the same promoters week in week out who don't have the imagination to see a bigger picture and take what they can while they can (that is all the promoters virtually up and down the country not anyone in particular).  Djs who spend ridiculous amounts on not so rare records, it is all about who can spend the most rather than using some imagination for which the scene would be a better place.  Dancers who daren't go on the floor to something they haven't heard a 100 times for fear of putting a foot out of place.

There is some great youngsters out there, Jordan & Charlotte, Ethan and more.  They have the same enthusiasm we did and it isn't about looking like a soulie, they have a thirst to learn, to dig for records and to dance, many of them properly.  But they are few and far between on the nighter scene that is largely dominated by those described in the title of this topic. 

That is what I mean by the scene being a parody of what it was was,  It is a pale imitation of a great underground dance culture.

That's a fair reflection Chalky. Having said that I don't go to do's any more so the Soul Police probably think that I don't have a right to comment!

If I think back to some of the capers we got up to many people wouldn't believe it. It was a fantastic time and place for me and it could never be replicated. I did it and I'm happy that I did. 

[Chalky]

1 minute ago, Peter99 said:

That's a fair reflection Chalky. Having said that I don't go to do's any more so the Soul Police probably think that I don't have a right to comment!

If I think back to some of the capers we got up to many people wouldn't believe it. It was a fantastic time and place for me and it could never be replicated. I did it and I'm happy that I did. 

Everyone entitled to an opinion mate.

Some of the stories, people just look at you in disbelief  

[Peter99]

1 minute ago, chalky said:

Everyone entitled to an opinion mate.

Some of the stories, people just look at you in disbelief  

I';m happy enough making new friends on here, buying the occasional record for my crap collection, and having pissed up soul nights, on my own, in my front room - usually in memory of Little Smith. LS was my old cat - he's been dead for 7 years now but I still feel him jump on my bed regularly. And there you have it - an insight into my very mentalist ways!

Pete 

[Guest BabyBoyAndMyLass]

2 hours ago, themroc said:

On ‎02‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 20:18, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

Can we just agree that it's The Young, The Good looking and The Tallented we despise? 

Hell of a lot of sense contained in these very few words!

[Guest themroc]

Great tune prefer the Lou Rawls.. 

That reminds me "Loo Rolls".. I thank Y'all. 

[Gold Band]

11 hours ago, Soulsides said:

It's the same with some of the 'old guard' on the majority of  scenes you'll encounter not just Northern Soul ..a tiny fraction just cant let go and move forward with the times .

The problem is this- certain people are so fanatical about the music they're into that they somehow think it belongs exclusively to them and them only...it's almost as if they recorded the tracks themselves which as a musician I find hilarious personally.

Listen, music isn't ever made by recording artists to be left to sit on a shelf unplayed or stashed away in the hands of greedy record dealers or only owned by some close minded minority ,its made and then released and meant to be all inclusive for anyone who hears and likes it.

When those notes on a record leave those grooves they belong to everyone not just to some exclusive select few in some elite imaginary club which is only ever open in the back of their own minds..

fcuk that type of attitude and ignore it ,its just utter nonsense .

I Move Forward, Backwards, Sideways In fact  any which way, the old guard the soul police won't stop me I still have that enthusiasm and drive for finding that next track. Watching play lists and scouring any source to find or listen to something new covered or uncovered and I still enjoy hearing tracks I've heard a million times I still get up and dance to new and old tracks & I'm thankful that others feel the same way or we would have died out years ago. I wish I could say I know it all but every week something still surprises me. My Cd collection is around 10,000 so you can tell I have listened too a great deal of soul music not all good but hey I've had a great time listening and i'm never bored.

Kirsty

Edited June 8, 2018 by Gold Band

[Chalky]

11 hours ago, Soulsides said:

It's the same with some of the 'old guard' on the majority of  scenes you'll encounter not just Northern Soul ..a tiny fraction just cant let go and move forward with the times .

The problem is this- certain people are so fanatical about the music they're into that they somehow think it belongs exclusively to them and them only...it's almost as if they recorded the tracks themselves which as a musician I find hilarious personally.

Listen, music isn't ever made by recording artists to be left to sit on a shelf unplayed or stashed away in the hands of greedy record dealers or only owned by some close minded minority ,its made and then released and meant to be all inclusive for anyone who hears and likes it.

When those notes on a record leave those grooves they belong to everyone not just to some exclusive select few in some elite imaginary club which is only ever open in the back of their own minds..

fcuk that type of attitude and ignore it ,its just utter nonsense .

I don't know anyone who thinks they own the music in the sense that you mean?

I know quite a few who do actually own it and they do share it though.

As for greedy record dealers.  Those recorded they have are out there, it is a free market and nothing to stop you, I or anyone else going out there and doing the same.  They have taken the time and effort to track down records, to find records which would otherwise be lost to the world for others to buy and enjoy. 

As for some imaginary elite club, whether you like it or not, out is an elitist scene, it always has been and always will be.  There has always been some sort of hierarchy, those at the top and then those at the bottom,, it is the same in any walk of life.  But I will say that most of those many consider to be at the top are approachable and willing to share knowledge, to talk about everyday things...at the end of the day we are really all the same just some have done that little bit, more for the scene than others but we all have that underlying love of the scene and the music.

[Theothertosspot]

On 02/06/2018 at 14:11, Joey said:

Aaah, the age old question, "What is Soul"?

Buggered if I know the answer to that. Better ask Bobby Womack, or Ray Charles, or Sam Cooke !!!!  

“What is Soul”?

“Songs Of Universal Love” is my understanding

Edited June 9, 2018 by theothertosspot

[Mark S]

As an old man who started off in the early seventies may  I respectfully remind people of the rules as there seems to be some confusion .

We are exclusive , we hate the media , fit in or do one , soul snobery should be encouraged , listen to other than top 500, dont take videos at events , dont wear baggies its not 1974 , Dont play boots , Keep the faith koko and its a way of life are meaningless slogans . DILYIDID is garbage .Nobody needs dance lessons . 

Above all enjoy yourselfs

Hope that clears things up

 

[Peter99]

2 hours ago, Mark S said:

As an old man who started off in the early seventies may  I respectfully remind people of the rules as there seems to be some confusion .

We are exclusive , we hate the media , fit in or do one , soul snobery should be encouraged , listen to other than top 500, dont take videos at events , dont wear baggies its not 1974 , Dont play boots , Keep the faith koko and its a way of life are meaningless slogans . DILYIDID is garbage .Nobody needs dance lessons . 

Above all enjoy yourselfs

Hope that clears things up

 

I’m with you bro. I’m thick as fcuk - many will vouch for that. So, what the fcuk is DILYIDID!

[Baz1]

3 hours ago, Peter99 said:

I’m with you bro. I’m thick as fcuk - many will vouch for that. So, what the fcuk is DILYIDID!

Do I love you indeed I do is my guess pete but could be wrong

[Peter99]

1 hour ago, baz1 said:

Do I love you indeed I do is my guess pete but could be wrong

I said I was thick Baz and there’s the proof. 

[Steve S 60]

9 hours ago, Mark S said:

As an old man who started off in the early seventies may  I respectfully remind people of the rules as there seems to be some confusion .

We are exclusive , we hate the media , fit in or do one , soul snobery should be encouraged , listen to other than top 500, dont take videos at events , dont wear baggies its not 1974 , Dont play boots , Keep the faith koko and its a way of life are meaningless slogans . DILYIDID is garbage .Nobody needs dance lessons . 

Above all enjoy yourselfs

Hope that clears things up

 

....and no talcum powder.  It's not a creche.

[Robnewbury]

Enough of the bitchin methinks....perhaps it is 'a youth culture left in the hands of old women'.....time to move on....close my thread.

[Zed1]

1 hour ago, Steve S 60 said:

....and no talcum powder.  It's not a creche.

....... and a disposable income and an ebay account does NOT make you a DJ.

[Twoshoes]

1 hour ago, ROBNEWBURY said:

.....time to move on....close my thread.

Sorry for waffling.That would be a shame Rob it's been an interesting thread, meandered a bit as some threads do but if nothing else whether you agree or disagree with some of the more strident views expressed you cannot deny it has shown the passion in whatever way expressed we all have for the music and the scene. I would say well done to Babyboy for the way he has handled the thread. 

   I've started a reply several times and deleted it without posting either because my view has already been stated by someone else or my reply could be taken in the wrong context and caused offence. This part of my post is for Babyboy as I seem to remember way back on the thread he asked for peoples history on the scene ,how they got into etc , some times  I also in some ways on here don't always feel qualified to comment on the early days of a scene I was not active on, I went to Wigan twice and that would be about it for the seventies apart from a couple of other one time visits to an event. I had a brief period on the scene in the mid to late eighties and came back about fourteen years ago.  I have collected Soul Music since the age of about fourteen, didn't realise that a lot of my collection was considered Northern until I struck up a friendship through music with someone into Northern, our first conversation started in the pub where he approached me at the bar and said "I believe you're into Northern Soul", I replied no just sixties soul, Motown, Atlantic etc, he then came to my house looked through my records and proceeded to point out all the tunes that were Northern ,I of course responded with "well it's all Soul to me". 

      Over the years my tastes have changed, I've like many run the whole spectrum of black music Mento, Ska Funk, Jazz Funk you name it somewhere along the line I've listened and bought it. Where do I stand now, still like to hear the top 500 but wouldn't choose to go to an oldies exclusive night and do get tired of hearing the same old same old, get annoyed when top name Dj's play the same set time after time when they must have a plethora of great underplayed stuff in their collections. I'm open to anything at the moment ,I'm a prodigious downloader ,love the rare and underplayed though a lot of what I hear extolled as brilliant I tend to think is pretty average. Recently started playing what is left of my collection and have been surprised to find much enjoyment in hearing mundane stuff like Wicky Wacky by the Fatback Band and flipping records over hearing b sides ignored for over thirty years or more.

   A for a youth culture in the hands of old men, I don't see owt' wrong with that, as for there being no youth culture now I disagree, it's a nation wide one of belligerence ,no respect, I'll walk a slow as I like across the road in front of your car, make you step in the road to pass, strut like Peacock with your jogging pants stuck inside your socks and talk like a gangster from Harlem even though you're a fifteen year old from Luton (no offence to Luton been watching 24 Hours in Police Custody.

    Listening to other music other than Soul, always have, the first time I saw The Lightening Seeds before they went big gave me as much a of buzz  as many soul gigs I've attended and I've attended a few,mind you they didn't bring a tear to my eye like sat waiting for Gladys Knight to come on stage in 1971. Having three kids has given me a guilty pleasure of Kylie, Green Day, Mighty Bosstones etc, lov Janis Ian, Beautiful South but the one thing I've learnt over the years is listening to all of that only enforces how great, fabulous, magnificent and how deep my love of Soul music is, number of times I've listened to any one of the above and thought that was great only to then play Darrell Banks or any one of a hundred soul artists and think  but that was something else altogether.

    Commenting on how others dance, I think Chalky covered that one to a tee in a few of his replies, spinners? if you can't spin within a relatively confined area don't spin, nothing worse than trying to avoid a tornado on the dance floor, love to see someone wrapped up in a tune singing along, dancing with no sense of rhythm carry on, enjoy but please don't dance next to me.

  Sorry again for the waffle was trying to cover all aspects of the thread from memory, in conclusion live and let live, there's room for everyone....finally maybe one for another thread Babyboy......Northern Soul ,It's a Way of Life....is it? Discuss

[Guest BabyBoyAndMyLass]

17 minutes ago, Twoshoes said:

Edited:

I would say well done to Babyboy for the way he has handled the thread. 

 

Thankyou sir, appreciate that.

Also great post, interesting reading! Thanks for your input! 

[Bbrich]

I guess everyone would look back on their younger days and conclude that things are just not as good, the excitement , the unknown is no longer there. But my attitude is don't compare your life now (including attending do's..) with how it was, compare going out now with the alternatives available to a 60+ year old - the worst soul do is still better than bingo, tea dance  or whatever. I mostly go out in the south and usually just all dayers or nites (I do a few all niters up north each year) and my experience is that there are very few dressed in baggies etc... and although top500 records are played at every event they are not in the majority. I never dreamed that I would be doing what I do now at 60+ when I was 20, 30 or 40...  I am so f***ing happy when I go out and long may it last.

Edited June 9, 2018 by bbrich

[Guest BabyBoyAndMyLass]

3 minutes ago, bbrich said:

I guess everyone would look back on their younger days and conclude that things are just not as good, the excitement , the unknown is no longer there. But my attitude is don't compare your life now (including attending do's..) with how it was, compare going out now with the alternatives available to a 60+ year old - the worst soul do is still better than bingo, tea dance  or whatever. I mostly go out in the south and usually just all dayers or nites (I do a few all niters up north each year) and my experience is that there are very few dressed in baggies etc... and although top500 records are played at every event they are not in the majority. I never dreamed that I would be doing what I do now at 60+ when I was 20, 30 or 40...  I am so f***ing happy when I go out and long may it last.

Excellent post! Very true, all of it! Thanks.

[Kenb]

What’s on my mind is this: in not so many years from now anyone that went to WC 1973 (say as a 15 yrs old) will be less and less in terms of first hand. (i think...maths is not my big point). 

I can’t believe i’m calling it a journey... but for me, my journey is a personal thing. I don’t feel the need to talk about it a lot, like badges/credentials at an interview (that would have been so funny back then, what could we have possibly compared it to). You did it and got it, or you didn’t. No hugs and kisses. That doesn’t mean i’m anti anyone who sprinkles their post with reminisce’s.  Big regret- i never saw Stafford, etc. -but love just about everything that came out. My cuppa tea.

Bearing in mind the OP ‘a youth culture left in the hands of old men’ - which old men will this be left to, by then?

Yes, hopefully, the likes of Jordan, etc, - and NS will be in safe hands. Rather than those that seek to re-engineer or re-define the cultural history.

P.S.  i instigated a private message with mod BBAML, so our previous on this is sorted.

Edited June 9, 2018 by Kenb
maths

[Guest Gogs]

13 minutes ago, Kenb said:

What’s on my mind is this: in another 40 yrs anyone that went to WC 1973 (as a 15 yrs old) will be 70. (i think...maths is not my big point).

They will be 70 in 10 years time.

[Kenb]

thanks-yeah got that. maths not my strong point. 

It's what happens ( to me anyway) when you're a dodding 'ol bugger.

Edited June 9, 2018 by Kenb

[Geeselad]

1 hour ago, Kenb said:

What’s on my mind is this: in not so many years from now anyone that went to WC 1973 (say as a 15 yrs old) will be less and less in terms of first hand. (i think...maths is not my big point). 

I can’t believe i’m calling it a journey... but for me, my journey is a personal thing. I don’t feel the need to talk about it a lot, like badges/credentials at an interview (that would have been so funny back then, what could we have possibly compared it to). You did it and got it, or you didn’t. No hugs and kisses. That doesn’t mean i’m anti anyone who sprinkles their post with reminisce’s.  Big regret- i never saw Stafford, etc. -but love just about everything that came out. My cuppa tea.

Bearing in mind the OP ‘a youth culture left in the hands of old men’ - which old men will this be left to, by then?

Yes, hopefully, the likes of Jordan, etc, - and NS will be in safe hands. Rather than those that seek to re-engineer or re-define the cultural history.

P.S.  i instigated a private message with mod BBAML, so our previous on this is sorted.

It scares me more that theyll try to respect  traditions really, rather then making it their own. Its shouldnt ve about rewriting history. Thats already been done. Its about adding a fresh page or even a new testament. 

[Kenb]

28 minutes ago, geeselad said:

It scares me more that theyll try to respect  traditions really, rather then making it their own. Its shouldnt ve about rewriting history. Thats already been done. Its about adding a fresh page or even a new testament. 

Yup-I think we’re on the same page. 

[Girdwoodinc]

2 hours ago, geeselad said:

It scares me more that theyll try to respect  traditions really, rather then making it their own. Its shouldnt ve about rewriting history. Thats already been done. Its about adding a fresh page or even a new testament. 

Well said Geese 

[Mark S]

Not the kids fault.

" I believe that children are our future "

Notwithstanding the outfits looks like they are having fun .

Edited June 9, 2018 by Mark S

[Guest Gogs]

3 hours ago, Mark S said:

Not the kids fault.

" I believe that children are our future "

Notwithstanding the outfits looks like they are having fun .

Please take the "oldies" outfits off, let them dance in clothes that they are comfortable in. Other than than, the more young blood the better imho.

I need somebody to sell my records too.

Edited June 10, 2018 by Gogs

[Hornet]

8 hours ago, Mark S said:

Not the kids fault.

" I believe that children are our future "

Notwithstanding the outfits looks like they are having fun .

POOR SOULS !

[Steve S 60]

9 hours ago, Mark S said:

Not the kids fault.

" I believe that children are our future "

Notwithstanding the outfits looks like they are having fun .

Babies forced into a youth culture by old men (and women).

[Peter99]

56 minutes ago, Steve S 60 said:

Babies forced into a youth culture by old men (and women).

Ive just called the NSPCC 

[Geeselad]

1 hour ago, Peter99 said:

Ive just called the NSPCC 

At least it will get them off fortnight for an hour

[Mal C]

a quick blunt but straight answer to the thread title 

a youth culture left in the hands of old men is no longer a youth culture. 

Seems pretty obvious really, been said before, but most of all scenes music or otherwise generally only last two years at their best, then people or circumstance change....as for the music well you just can’t fault that can you, but then we all know that..  

mal

Edited June 10, 2018 by Mal C

[Bbrich]

I think the biggest indicator of 

1 hour ago, Mal C said:

a youth culture left in the hands of old men

is that although we still break into the chemist on the way to a do..............  we now steal all the ibuprofen.

[Stevesilktulip]

In April I attended the Jazz FM Awards Ceremony, having been asked for proposals for the best blues and best soul artists categories.

The only blues artist I could reasonably put forward was Lucky Peterson, who had an album out last year (a tribute to Jimmy Smith) and played a storming set at Sage Gateshead. He received a nomination but it was won by Robert Cray, who my brother had grudgingly suggested.

In the Soul category I had no hesitation in proposing William Bell, who played triumphant sets at the London Jazz and SummerTyne Americana Festivals - why don't Soul Fans like William Bell? - and his latest album is one of the best 'real' soul albums of recent times. My other choices were Tasha (daughter of Johnnie) Taylor as one to watch, and Angie Stone as the greatest Soul Artist of the last quarter century.

Following my review of Leroy Hutson at Camden Jazz Festival just after Christmas, my editor put a question mark next to him and I enthusiastically concurred, with two sell out gigs and a full reissue programme for 2018. He received a nomination along with Moonchild and Jordan Rakei. We received a copy of the Moonchild album in our party bags and I'm not sure what it is beyond it isn't very good. I still haven't heard Rakei, though I understand he's a white Australian, which of course has form in northern soul. He was presented to the Cheltenham Jazz Festival by Giles Peterson, the jazz end of the Funk Mafia, a collection of DJs who dominated the Black Music scene in London and the South (also Caister, Bognor Regis (where he shared a pirate radio show with Colin Curtis) and Prestatyn (when the big room was full of ravers) in the eighties and nineties but, in amongst Tower of Power, Kamasi Washington, Nigel Kennedy doing Hendrix, Christian McBride and Rob Luft, I decided to give it a miss.  

During the ceremony, one of the comperes claimed we have healthy scenes in jazz, blues and soul, illustrating how northern soul isn't the only show in town. I have a suggestion; if the contemporary DJs swap with the northern DJs and play vinyls, since we're told daily that vinyls are back, and the northern DJs start using CDs and/or computers as well, they will be able to play whatever they want, without being restricted to these fantastic vinyls collections which, for the most part, don't exist.

 

[Mark S]

Thats time I,ll never get back 

[Mr Fred]

On 07/06/2018 at 21:01, chalky said:

it is just a parody of what it once was full of people who are only interested in themselves and what they can from it and not what they can give to it

like President John F Kennedy once said think not of what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country Regards Fred