WHY ARE PRICES SKY ROCKETING?

[Andykempster]

Are they getting rarer?

Do people have more money to spend?

Are sellers just getting greedier?

Are buyers getting more gullible? 

Or has Brexit got something to do with it?

 

Edited March 11, 2018 by AndyKempster

[Guest Shufflin]

my own pet theory is that soul record collecting is becoming more international, so more competition, and people are getting access to pension pots

 

[Winsford Soul]

Supply and demand.  As the records are getting older some are probably breaking or becoming damaged so reducing the available stock of some rare to start with records which in turn drives up the prices. Which along with  people having more disposable income as mortgages are paid off etc  equates to more money for less records.  That's my simple take on it. 

Steve 

[Chris L]

There does seem to be an influx of newer soul fans. Either through word of mouth or the recent films. Anyway I've noticed a different type of buyer the last 2 years, they seem to buy to DJ, mostly oldies.

[Guest Spain pete]

One word springs to mind, HYPE ! 💷

[Jnixon]

All of the above plus nobody is making any more

[Guest Shufflin]

On 3/11/2018 at 19:08, Chris L said:

There does seem to be an influx of newer soul fans. Either through word of mouth or the recent films. Anyway I've noticed a different type of buyer the last 2 years, they seem to buy to DJ, mostly oldies.

the younger ones are imo trying to avoid the oldies and forge their own sound, I just think people who always wanted to own certain records from their youth are hitting 55 or older & getting access to pension pots, nice inheritances

Edited March 15, 2018 by Shufflin
removed the words that are winding some people up!

[Dylan]

4 minutes ago, shufflin said:

the younger ones are imo trying to avoid the oldies and forge their own sound, I just think people who always wanted to own certain records from their youth are hitting 55 or older & getting access to pension pots, nice inheritances plus we're all relatively much richer to ten years ago

Richer than 10 years ago ?

 

i am not sure about that I think the opposite on a personal level and as a nation.

[Guest Shufflin]

1 minute ago, dylan said:

Richer than 10 years ago ?

 

i am not sure about that I think the opposite on a personal level and as a nation.

badly phrased sorry, a lot of people are then (even if not us), 2008 was a car crash financially for lots of people

[Chris L]

2 hours ago, shufflin said:

the younger ones are imo trying to avoid the oldies and forge their own sound, I just think people who always wanted to own certain records from their youth are hitting 55 or older & getting access to pension pots, nice inheritances plus we're all relatively much richer to ten years ago

I've sold a lot of oldies to young people (relatively that is, 30+s)

[Guest Shufflin]

15 minutes ago, Chris L said:

I've sold a lot of oldies to young people (relatively that is, 30+s)

not surprised, so we have

1. younger buyers with disposable income

2. rare soul is very well known now see all the tv ads etc

3. retirees with cash available from pension pots

4. people paid off mortgages so more disposable income

5.parents whose kids have left home equals more disposable income

6. more global interest in rare soul

7. US waking up to value of records

8. people being prepared to over pay because they can

9. as Ste said records get lost/damaged over time, less available so prices go up

 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2018 by Shufflin

[Guest Soulatthedale]

You can include all of the above reasons for the ridiculous prices but the one main reason in my opinion is greed by certain sellers and dealers, many set their prices by thinking of a number, then double it and add an extra fee quid on. I'm no mathematician but I daresay most records have increased in price over the last 20/25 yrs at a rate massively higher than inflation, and if I gullible buyer forks out, then that's the going rate. Having said all that, we've all paid way over the odds for certain records, it's one of the symptoms of desperation!

[Frankie Crocker]

All of the previous reasons plus a few more. Price Guides kick-started the trend. eBay sales and private auctions by major dealers means fewer set-sales of high-end rarities. Databases such as Popsike and Collectors Frenzy have informed the USA dealers of the potential worth of their records. Collectors chasing the Top 500 classics, especially if they have an eye on a DJ spot and have to own the latest ‘in-sound’... The list goes on.

[Winsford Soul]

Another reason. The stupid amount of records that come up for offers or auctions that are £ ( insert own value  ) Never in a million years  are most of these  auction record's  Lazy greedy dealers. . You know what they are worth or have a good idea. Put the price on.

Steve

[Robbk]

On 3/11/2018 at 12:29, shufflin said:

the younger ones are imo trying to avoid the oldies and forge their own sound, I just think people who always wanted to own certain records from their youth are hitting 55 or older & getting access to pension pots, nice inheritances plus we're all relatively much richer to ten years ago

Speak for yourself!!!  Some of us are ancient, and our pensions don't keep up with inflation (REAL inflation is a lot higher than the stated inflation figures provided by our various government agencies. 

[Matt]

It's an addictive scene in more ways than one, when you get gripped with collecting records it is wonderful to see and if you are lucky enough, to own such records. Also you have the history in front of you of many artists who struggled to release a recording, which is sad that they are not getting their rightful cut of such record deals. A great deal of the records sold are works of art in their own right coming from a period of time that will never be repeated. Who knows what the future will hold with prices? When you have so many great tunes out there, there will probably always be a market. Happy hunting to you all!

Edited March 15, 2018 by Matt
comma

[Dylan]

On 11/03/2018 at 21:38, shufflin said:

not surprised, so we have

1. younger buyers with disposable income

2. rare soul is very well known now see all the tv ads etc

3. retirees with cash available from pension pots

4. people paid off mortgages so more disposable income

5.parents whose kids have left home equals more disposable income

6. more global interest in rare soul

7. US waking up to value of records

8. people being prepared to over pay because they can

9. as Ste said records get lost/damaged over time, less available so prices go up

 

 

 

I dont know where you are getting any kind of evidence of these living condition facts ? I would disagree with pretty much all of them.

[Guest Shufflin]

6 hours ago, RobbK said:

Speak for yourself!!!  Some of us are ancient, and our pensions don't keep up with inflation (REAL inflation is a lot higher than the stated inflation figures provided by our various government agencies. 

i already said that was badly phrased see further up

[Guest Shufflin]

2 hours ago, dylan said:

I dont know where you are getting any kind of evidence of these living condition facts ? I would disagree with pretty much all of them.

never said they were facts, just thoughts, things I've heard, speculation, maybe I'm wrong - but something must be causing it

[Dylan]

13 minutes ago, shufflin said:

never said they were facts, just thoughts, things I've heard, speculation, maybe I'm wrong - but something must be causing it

Havent you heard just as many people commenting and speculating to say the opposite though ?

 

whats happening in society and record prices gong up are not related imo.

[Guest Shufflin]

39 minutes ago, dylan said:

Havent you heard just as many people commenting and speculating to say the opposite though ?

 

whats happening in society and record prices gong up are not related imo.

go on then what are your theories?

[Dylan]

18 minutes ago, shufflin said:

go on then what are your theories?

I dont have any theories to rising record prices.  I cant see the logic.

 

as a result i stopped buying.  probably other factors played a part as well.  3 young kids being the main one.

 

i dont see this younger generation with loads of disposable income all getting into northern soul.  House prices are as high as they have ever been many people are not even getting on housing ladder until into there 30s or even worse when they get some inheritance.

 

young people are having to pay more and more into pensions to get less out than previous generations.

 

living costs in just about all aspects continue to rise.

 

some lucky people are just not impacted in any way because they are from very wealth families or have a huge amount of personel wealth.  They are not in the majority.

 

[Detroitsound]

Been reading above posts and lots of points of view 

I have for many years had the opinion that we as soul collectors have been ripped off to excess on almost all soul 45s that had upto national distribution in the US....

By this I mean price's that have been generated here by record dealers for records that would have appeared in us price guides for most of the time no more than $20....

You still see examples of this on Web results when searching for 45s if you include pdf in your search line...

So we're these American price guides All talking crap...? 

Or the reality has always been over inflation at our side of the pond... I think the latter.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by Detroitsound

[Robbk]

Pension plans rarely provide even 80% of a former workers average monthly income.  in ANY of the countries in which 

I have dwelt, or with which I am familiar (even in heavily socialised Scandinavia).  My German friends who come closest to matching their average late career work pay, get around 80%, and feel very lucky to do so.  And, on top of that, they generally lose a little more each year, to inflation.  So why should new pensioners have a LOT of disposable or discretionary income, when their pension income is already only able to support a very frugal lifestyle, and less able to do even that, over each succeeding year.  I hear many, many stories about record collectors having to sell off their collections to survive, and very few if any stories about collectors who can now buy more, and more expensive records now that they are receiving their pension money.  I don't know much about The British system, but, I can't imagine that it provides significantly higher pension incomes relative to previous worker incomes than in The Netherlands, Belgium, Germany Denmark, Sweden, Canada and USA (of which I am familiar).

[Dylan]

6 hours ago, RobbK said:

Pension plans rarely provide even 80% of a former workers average monthly income.  in ANY of the countries in which 

I have dwelt, or with which I am familiar (even in heavily socialised Scandinavia).  My German friends who come closest to matching their average late career work pay, get around 80%, and feel very lucky to do so.  And, on top of that, they generally lose a little more each year, to inflation.  So why should new pensioners have a LOT of disposable or discretionary income, when their pension income is already only able to support a very frugal lifestyle, and less able to do even that, over each succeeding year.  I hear many, many stories about record collectors having to sell off their collections to survive, and very few if any stories about collectors who can now buy more, and more expensive records now that they are receiving their pension money.  I don't know much about The British system, but, I can't imagine that it provides significantly higher pension incomes relative to previous worker incomes than in The Netherlands, Belgium, Germany Denmark, Sweden, Canada and USA (of which I am familiar).

Most people would be incredibly happy to get 80%.

 

66% final salary used to be typical.  66% career average is now more likely on any kind of defined contribution.

 

most people though have had that kind of pension frozen by now and are just building up a pot in aome kind of investment which they can then draw down.  So its not a guaranteed income until death.

 

and any kind of state support keeps getting pushed back so you received it later and later than previous.

 

thats quite general i've not gone into detail ao the exact % may differ due to not paying NI and less tax.

Edited March 16, 2018 by dylan

[John Hart]

The Big Three Record Dealers!  Like Bankers {sic} and used Car dealers not only do they rig the market they also make up their own prices in their self written guides! the rest of the market , E Bay Discogs ,Private Sellers Follow the trend .

[Len]

On 3/11/2018 at 23:27, Winsford Soul said:

Another reason. The stupid amount of records that come up for offers or auctions that are £ ( insert own value  ) Never in a million years  are most of these  auction record's  Lazy greedy dealers. . You know what they are worth or have a good idea. Put the price on.

Steve

An auction record was pretty scarce 20 - 25 years ago. You would see one or two on a record list only every so often.

Agree, it's surprising to see some records up for auction - But in the defense of the sellers, it must work, and they're not a charity, they're doing just as I do with metal work - I get as much as I possibly can (That's not greed, just business)

Len 

[John Hart]

Rocketing Prices just continue to aggravate ,what was once a collectors hobby for no reward is now in some cases ,a moneymaking exercise !

Back in the day a weeks wages would buy you a decent collection ,now it would take a years salary ,or more.! On a more positive note I applaud all the DJs { and the Wannabees} who still do it for the love and not the Greed or Dosh ! LOL Johnny ,Malaga ,Spain.

[Spacehopper]

Heres a thought,is there a direct link with the type of gig that is popular now? we all know the calendar is overcrowded with more and more gigs and even taking the bootleg nights out there is still way too much on in my opinion of the wrong type of night,those nights where the crowd only want to hear records they know.Those seem to be the records the ever increasing list of djs are paying over the odds for.If a dj wants to climb up that ladder to one day play in those big weekender and allnighter venues we all know of they have to have certain tunes,a set full of underplayed or lesser known stuff wont do it sadly, however good the tunes/dj is.

In contrast to that,a nighter like soulfunktion is full of djs/collectors (in the crowd and on the dancefloor) who are all looking for something different and despite some big money but genuine rarities being played there are also loads of £20/50 pound records being played by shall we say lesser known djs on a budget,maybe if this type of crowd were bigger there would be more of these nights and more demand for a wider selection of cheaper tunes instead of the same race to have what every other dj has which as has been said is a bigger demand for a smaller supply

dean

[Geeselad]

5 minutes ago, John Hart said:

Rocketing Prices just continue to aggravate ,what was once a collectors hobby for no reward is now in some cases ,a moneymaking exercise !

Back in the day a weeks wages would buy you a decent collection ,now it would take a years salary ,or more.! On a more positive note I applaud all the DJs { and the Wannabees} who still do it for the love and not the Greed or Dosh ! LOL Johnny ,Malaga ,Spain.

when was this day when you could buy a decent collection for a weeks wage?

[Mal C]

Really sticky thread this, if you get my meaning, I’ll say this cause I feel compelled to do so, outside of available cash, where ever that comes from, some collectors and dealers are hiking prices right up, and in allot of cases with no more justification than they can, long gone are the days of its gone out of vogue and the price drops, if it’s a good Sound an  oldie or newbie,  unknouwn or not, even 1st or 2nd issue, 45s are getting inflated prices attached to them...

but then it’s aleays been like that, used to feel that when you received the lists, it’s just got to a point I think where the bubble is maybe about to burst? so be warned, pay over the odds today, and in 5 years time you may find some serious depreciation..

That’s just my view folks..

Edited March 16, 2018 by Mal C

[Spacehopper]

Agree some dealers/sellers are hiking up prices but that's only business we don't have to buy them do we, manships guide has been around for years and 10 years ago you could easily get records at half or even a third of book price in vg++ condition, the prices are going up that quick for certain tunes that I would love to get them at the guide price! its out of date by the time its printed. 

There are lots of records out there I would love to own and could actually afford but I refuse to pay the money they are asking, tunes that have shot up over the last 2 or 3 years from 60-75 to 300+ I can remember only a few years ago little flint,invitations and Lonnie lester being 75,then it was 100 and thinking no i'll wait another will come along at 75...doh!  but I can think of a lot better rarer records to spend 300 quid on, ones that are not being played out by a couple of dozen djs every weekend too! but each to his or her own I suppose

[Dylan]

3 minutes ago, spacehopper said:

Agree some dealers/sellers are hiking up prices but that's only business we don't have to buy them do we, manships guide has been around for years and 10 years ago you could easily get records at half or even a third of book price in vg++ condition, the prices are going up that quick for certain tunes that I would love to get them at the guide price! its out of date by the time its printed. 

There are lots of records out there I would love to own and could actually afford but I refuse to pay the money they are asking, tunes that have shot up over the last 2 or 3 years from 60-75 to 300+ I can remember only a few years ago little flint,invitations and Lonnie lester being 75,then it was 100 and thinking no i'll wait another will come along at 75...doh!  but I can think of a lot better rarer records to spend 300 quid on, ones that are not being played out by a couple of dozen djs every weekend too! but each to his or her own I suppose

Late 90s lonnie lester was in virtually every sales box i looked it.

 

i was staggered that it could be 75 when everybody had one for sale.

 

it should be 20 quid its not rare in the slightest and has been hammered.

[Dylan]

Those 75 quid late 90s records for me are things like enchanters, larry davis, kurt harris etc etc all seem to be well into the hundreds now.

 

i was happy to pay 60 And sell for 80 to get something new and keep finding my way around the records.

[Spacehopper]

I suppose at the moment its not in every sales box as it was then which pushes up the price but like someone said earlier the bubble will burst, despite there now being a global market it cant go on for ever, there aren't that many youngsters buying and those that are could settle down soon as  a lot of we did and there will be more and more djs and collectors hitting that age when they don't want to go out every weekend and their partners are on at them to sell those bloody records!

but I know a dj who gave up work to sell records and thought he had 5 years in it, i think that was nearly 10 years ago and at the moment its not stopping, there's also of course the 'new' styles that come into fashion, for a lot of the more open minded northern fans its been funky edged and for the rnb its been more blues and mambo but after those boxes have been hammered over a few years for the good stuff where do we go then?  personally disco for one or rock n roll for the other is a step too far

funny old world

 

dean

 

[Modernsoulsucks]

2 hours ago, geeselad said:

when was this day when you could buy a decent collection for a weeks wage?

You are right of course but I definitely came home from Wigan with more new 45s than I do now when I go out.

[Bbrich]

I saw the other week that a rare teapot which was broken sold for £650,000 (might have been $), . I also did a quick search of values of rare stamps - which i no nothing about and have no interest - and it seemed from a quick look that any where there were less than 10 known sold for hundreds of thousands. Makes you think as I know what I would rather have....  so just maybe the truly rare and quality records in top condition have actually got a long way to go still valuewise ?

[Guest Shufflin]

be interesting to come back to this discussion in a few years after the price crash predicted by some has (or has not) happened

[Spacehopper]

without doubt the collecting bug we humans have is the same no matter what the item but 'soul records' more than other things is driven by a scene IMO without it although record collecting will always be around will there be the demand for thousands of copies of certain records?

 

[Spacehopper]

5 minutes ago, shufflin said:

be interesting to come back to this discussion in a few years after the price crash predicted by some has (or has not) happened

it will be interesting, i don't think it will so much a crash as I said there will always be record collectors of quality original music but more of a drop to sensible prices..hope its not a crash I still want to sell mine off one day if only to pay for my coffin!

[Peter99]

In flation in it. For any deflation there would need to be a retriangleination of the spherical strategy accros the global nation. 

[Dylan]

2 minutes ago, spacehopper said:

without doubt the collecting bug we humans have is the same no matter what the item but 'soul records' more than other things is driven by a scene IMO without it although record collecting will always be around will there be the demand for thousands of copies of certain records?

 

The scene certainly is at some point important to us all but i think for many the collecting continues when they leave the scene.

 

i sold a record last week and the buyer said he hasnt been in a soul club for 10 years apart from one recent visit.

 

maybe taste changes and the home lsitening soul is what will stand the test of time as a long term collectable as that doesnt need a scene.

 

and there is so much info out there that a records rarity can truly be tested before big big spends take place.  In the same way as with other collectables mentioned above.  Prices may continue to rise on truly rare and great recorda as they will become very important and be treated like antiques.

 

far removed from the underground youth scene they came from.

[Chris L]

What you also see are certain sellers who seem to be able to get incredibly high prices for records that others don't. We're all aware of JMs ability to "reach for the sky", there about 5 or 6 others who can do the same.  Their final selling price become benchmarks that buyers seem to use. 

[Andybellwood]

  Credit card payments & dealers offering ‘easy terms’ seems to make inflated prices acceptable for some for records they wouldn’t be able to otherwise afford . 

[Colouredman]

It’s simple: It’s called Supply and Demand! It’s the oldest transaction equation known to man isn’t it; no surprise there. A couple of things maybe worth mentioning here:

1. For the ‘inflated price’ commentators........Does anyone here ever complain when they sell that (now) rare record they bought in the 70’s (for 70’s prices!) for today’s market or (inflated)value? Do they agree to settle for a much lesser amount than market value so as not to be ‘greedy’???No  they dont; they take the cash, pocket it, and are thankful they were around to buy records when they were cheaper and more available.

2. An average semi in most areas of the country, other than London was no more than £3000 to £10,000 in early to mid 70’s; is it now???

3. If you think record prices are inflated, do lots of research and planning, take many 1000’s of dollars and go try find em yourself. I’ll bet you your current mortgage you’ll come back with money and almost no credible records.

4. Oh and when you’re on that trip, think of the most bog standard cheapie northern record (rescue me, ric tic issues etc etc) and try find one. Go into oldies shop after oldies shop or record shows and try n find one. When you come back with your tail between your legs and no records to show off to your mates, believe me, you’ll have a whole different perspective on rarity and prices. 

5. Dealers can only get what the market will pay. Don’t people understand that yet, after all these years?

6. A dealer only got the price wrong if he DIDNT sell it!!! If he did sell it, like it or not, that’s the price it can potentially fetch, and therefore he’s not greedy; he’s just a good businessman. How many major record dealers in UK went out of business in last 20 years coz the market wouldn’t put up with their ‘greedy’ ‘high’ prices?? None!!

7. Quite simply; the prices are rocketing coz more people want the records than there are copies around. Even now in 2018, there are people still chasing Epitome of Sound, Glories, Frank Beverley, Moses Smith etc etc. These records are not turning up regularly in quantity anymore, so why would prices not be high? They’re great records, and (relatively) harder to find in USA now, so why wouldn’t prices be high?

8. Also trends change and move. In the mid 70’s the only record anyone wanted on Groove City was Sister Lee, which explains why you could buy the Professionals for £15! No one was bothered about it; it probably wasn’t much less rare than it is now but there was NO DEMAND!! That’s the name of the game.

[Kev Cane]

27 minutes ago, colouredman said:

It’s simple: It’s called Supply and Demand! It’s the oldest transaction equation known to man isn’t it; no surprise there. A couple of things maybe worth mentioning here:

1. For the ‘inflated price’ commentators........Does anyone here ever complain when they sell that (now) rare record they bought in the 70’s (for 70’s prices!) for today’s market or (inflated)value? Do they agree to settle for a much lesser amount than market value so as not to be ‘greedy’???No  they dont; they take the cash, pocket it, and are thankful they were around to buy records when they were cheaper and more available.

2. An average semi in most areas of the country, other than London was no more than £3000 to £10,000 in early to mid 70’s; is it now???

3. If you think record prices are inflated, do lots of research and planning, take many 1000’s of dollars and go try find em yourself. I’ll bet you your current mortgage you’ll come back with money and almost no credible records.

4. Oh and when you’re on that trip, think of the most bog standard cheapie northern record (rescue me, ric tic issues etc etc) and try find one. Go into oldies shop after oldies shop or record shows and try n find one. When you come back with your tail between your legs and no records to show off to your mates, believe me, you’ll have a whole different perspective on rarity and prices. 

5. Dealers can only get what the market will pay. Don’t people understand that yet, after all these years?

6. A dealer only got the price wrong if he DIDNT sell it!!! If he did sell it, like it or not, that’s the price it can potentially fetch, and therefore he’s not greedy; he’s just a good businessman. How many major record dealers in UK went out of business in last 20 years coz the market wouldn’t put up with their ‘greedy’ ‘high’ prices?? None!!

7. Quite simply; the prices are rocketing coz more people want the records than there are copies around. Even now in 2018, there are people still chasing Epitome of Sound, Glories, Frank Beverley, Moses Smith etc etc. These records are not turning up regularly in quantity anymore, so why would prices not be high? They’re great records, and (relatively) harder to find in USA now, so why wouldn’t prices be high?

8. Also trends change and move. In the mid 70’s the only record anyone wanted on Groove City was Sister Lee, which explains why you could buy the Professionals for £15! No one was bothered about it; it probably wasn’t much less rare than it is now but there was NO DEMAND!! That’s the name of the game.

AMEN, point 8 is a beauty

Kev

[Soulcarp]

7 minutes ago, kev cane said:

AMEN, point 8 is a beauty

Kev

 

7 minutes ago, kev cane said:

AMEN, point 8 is a beauty

Kev

So true end of 

[Soulcarp]

On 16/03/2018 at 13:23, dylan said:

Those 75 quid late 90s records for me are things like enchanters, larry davis, kurt harris etc etc all seem to be well into the hundreds now.

 

i was happy to pay 60 And sell for 80 to get something new and keep finding my way around the records.

When in the late 90ts was kurt Harris a £75 quid record I did not think 

[Dylan]

14 minutes ago, soulcarp said:

When in the late 90ts was kurt Harris a £75 quid record I did not think 

Thats how much i paid for it in about 97 give or take.  I think it came from shifty.

 

Wasnt that was a typical price for the time ? I think it was.

[Frankie Crocker]

We’ve all heard of supply and demand but there’s another trend that Adam Smith forgot about... It’s called the Northern Soul law of demand and supply. In this situation, a small quantity of good records turns up in the States and are snapped up by shrewd collector-DJ’s; the record is spun in public stimulating further demand. Other copies of the record soon come out the woodwork increasing supply. Worried collectors fearing they could miss out, end up bidding like the record may never come to market again. The usual law of supply and demand does not always apply to Northern Soul records as price increases with both demand and supply eg Exits, Nolan Porter, Joe Jama, Angela Davis, Marvin Gaye, Four Tracks, Joe Tex etc.