Darrell Banks Open The Door - bootleg info

[Steve L]

Pink revilot 201 - Whats the score with bootlegs of this? I was under the impression that originals were styrene with stamped ZTSC matrix?

Just bought one described as guaranteed original but its vinyl with scratched matrix....

[Zanetti]

Never heard about a pink booty! pinkys just in styrene - only one grey vinyl of open the door ..

&

PM

[Ficklefingers]

JM's bootleg guide for Revilot 201 states:

'All originals are made in styrene plastic, stick on labels. The boots are vinyl with moulded over labels. With ZTSC scratched in over sized letters in the deadwax'

Hope this helps ??

Edited February 20, 2018 by FickleFingers
spelling

[Chris L]

1 minute ago, FickleFingers said:

JM's bootleg guide for Revilot 201 states:

'All originals are made in styrene plastic, stick on labels. The boots are vinyl with moulded over labels. With ZTSC scratched in over sized letters in the deadwax'

Hope this helps ??

I have a styrene with stuck on label and scratched matrix number, bought in USA.

[Only Dreaming]

I had the pink Vinyl (a dark shade of pink if I remember correctly) boot about 15 years ago. I thought it was legit as it came from a US dealer in a job lot of (original) records. It wasn't until I listed it on Ebay as an original that someone put me straight.

Dave

[Bo Diddley]

There's also the Canadian pink Revilot. That's vinyl. 

[The Yank]

There was a SS topic about this a few years back- "Darrell Banks Our Love.... Grey issue or DJ".

     I live in the States and have two vinyl copies (both cutouts ) of "Open The Door..." one grey and one pink. I always thought they were legit.

I would say at least 90% of the "Open... " copies that I've seen were styrene. 

[Chris L]

1 hour ago, the yank said:

There was a SS topic about this a few years back- "Darrell Banks Our Love.... Grey issue or DJ".

     I live in the States and have two vinyl copies (both cutouts ) of "Open The Door..." one grey and one pink. I always thought they were legit.

I would say at least 90% of the "Open... " copies that I've seen were styrene. 

I've had grey ones in both vinyl & styrene, even had a single sided grey/white demo of "Somebody, somewhere"

[Steve L]

Thanks for the replies everyone, evidence appears inconclusive really. As fingers says above Manships old bootleg guide has a vinyl copy as non original and Tim Browns guide says the same thing. However Manships price guides 5 & 7 don't say anything about bootleg details but the price in both is in bold type which usually indicates its been booted.

So who knows ? Maybe its one that no-one really knows 100%...........

Edited February 20, 2018 by Steve L

[maslar]

27 minutes ago, Steve L said:

Thanks for the replies everyone, evidence appears inconclusive really. As fingers says above Manships old bootleg guide has a vinyl copy as non original and Tim Browns guide says the same thing. However Manships price guides 5 & 7 don't say anything about bootleg details but the price in both is in bold type which usually indicates its been booted.

So who knows ? Maybe its one that no-one really knows 100%...........

I've always thought it was pretty simple regading the US pink labels: The pressing are pale pink and obviously vinyl. The originals are darker pink (salmon pink?) and stryene. They may have stamped matrix or may not. 

As for the Canadian vinyl release. does anyone have an accurate scan of the label/colour. I'm guessing it may be easy to assume its a pressing when it isn't.

Edited February 20, 2018 by maslar

[Kegsy]

To be honest I really can't  understand why anybody would bother bootlegging a record that was never that rare in the first place after say 1972.

[Algsoul]

End Price: USD       (GBP )     Start Price: USD                 Start Date: 2014-11-05   Number of bids:   Country:

[Algsoul]

[The Yank]

Here's a picture of my vinyl copy of "Open..." next to a styrene press of "Somebody (Somewhere Needs You)" . The color of the label is lighter on "Open..." and the line 

underneath Revilot is higher up and at more of a slant. I just noticed my styrene copy of "Somebody..." also has the scratched in matrix info. Now I'm really confused.....

[Chris L]

Canadian

[Chris L]

1 hour ago, Kegsy said:

To be honest I really can't  understand why anybody would bother bootlegging a record that was never that rare in the first place after say 1972.

I'm sure there's been a thread on this before and Pete Smith said the same. I remember all those 1970s boots and this wasn't among them. JJ Barnes - Our love  is on both styrene and vinyl, surely if a Revilot would have been booted would be this and not DB. 

Edited February 20, 2018 by Chris L

[maslar]

6 minutes ago, Chris L said:

Canadian

Was it released at the same time as the Quality? Or two release dates?

[Douglaschip]

Got them both and sure the lighter pink vinyl is a boot - although I think the sound quality is better on this than the original!

Adam

[Steve L]

16 minutes ago, douglaschip said:

Got them both and sure the lighter pink vinyl is a boot - although I think the sound quality is better on this than the original!

Adam

The sound quality on the record in question is really good 

[Chris L]

7 hours ago, douglaschip said:

Got them both and sure the lighter pink vinyl is a boot - although I think the sound quality is better on this than the original!

Adam

Why are you sure it's a boot ?

[Chris L]

7 hours ago, maslar said:

Was it released at the same time as the Quality? Or two release dates?

 

[Chris L]

8 hours ago, the yank said:

Here's a picture of my vinyl copy of "Open..." next to a styrene press of "Somebody (Somewhere Needs You)" . The color of the label is lighter on "Open..." and the line 

underneath Revilot is higher up and at more of a slant. I just noticed my styrene copy of "Somebody..." also has the scratched in matrix info. Now I'm really confused.....

Why do you say "Somebody" is a pressing ?

[Douglaschip]

Only sure it is a boot because I bought it as a boot from Sydney Scarborough in Hull for 50 pence in 1979 as a 16 year old.  May have been lucky and they were mixing up their boots and originals in which case great - I have 2 copies of the original in different formats!

[maslar]

3 minutes ago, douglaschip said:

Only sure it is a boot because I bought it as a boot from Sydney Scarborough in Hull for 50 pence in 1979 as a 16 year old.  May have been lucky and they were mixing up their boots and originals in which case great - I have 2 copies of the original in different formats!

I always thought only a handful of Revilots had been pressed:

DB OLIITP, JJ barnes OLIITP, Rose Batiste Hit and Run, Parliaments Don't Be Sore At Me.

[The Yank]

15 hours ago, Chris L said:

Why do you say "Somebody" is a pressing ?

The reason I thought something  was wrong with "Somebody..."  was because the ZTSC info has the scratched matrix instead of the usual ZTSC stamped matrix. 

[Chris L]

16 minutes ago, the yank said:

The reason I thought something  was wrong with "Somebody..."  was because the ZTSC info has the scratched matrix instead of the usual ZTSC stamped matrix. 

That happened a lot in the 1960s, you'll also find other Revilot with scratched matrixes, Okeh releases too.

[Tlscapital]

On 20 février 2018 at 21:37, Kegsy said:

To be honest I really can't  understand why anybody would bother bootlegging a record that was never that rare in the first place after say 1972.

Not all bootlegs aimed at the British folks on that small Island west of the European Continent. For example Americans also use to have their own contemporary bootlegs to cash in on hit records sales, not only on rare records... So Darrel Banks 'open the door...' could have suffered that fate. Many of these seem to come out of "discounted" batches with the drill cut-out holes. So likely they were in the official commercial circuit. Still not meaning that they were legit none the less.

For facts, I can't say what it is exactly with this pink vinyl variation but since, at Ric-Tic  they had indeed few later numbers issued both on vinyl and styrene, even switching back to the pink labels for those vinyl issues, when they had switch to the multi-colored labels by then. So they could have throw in a new release of Darrel Banks there to supply a maybe lasting demand... Only the typo on the label of the vinyl copies of Darrel Banks in this case suggest that it is a photocopy of the styrene issue...

[Tlscapital]

On 20 février 2018 at 22:44, maslar said:

Was it released at the same time as the Quality? Or two release dates?

Likely the same story as with the British London/Stateside releases infringement... This sole Canadian Revilot distributed by London Records release even though if it was not withdrawn was likely quickly supplented with the Quality release !

[Kegsy]

2 hours ago, tlscapital said:

Not all bootlegs aimed at the British folks on that small Island west of the European Continent. For example Americans also use to have their own contemporary bootlegs to cash in on hit records sales, not only on rare records... So Darrel Banks 'open the door...' could have suffered that fate. Many of these seem to come out of "discounted" batches with the drill cut-out holes. So likely they were in the official commercial circuit. Still not meaning that they were legit none the less.

 

I cannot really argue with your hypothesis as the facts are not really known either way, but I can offer an alternative.

Open the door... quickly became a massive seller for what was a relatively small and brand new label. The Canadian Revilot release was distributed by London/Decca, however the Quality label had strong ties to MGM, the owner worked for MGM before launching Quality. If LeBaron Taylor decided the record plant/distributor wasn't keeping up with demand, for the record, he may well have swapped U.S. plants/distributors. MGM seem to have used 4/5 different pressing plants throughout the U.S, this would mean there could have been all sorts different imprints of the record. The London/Decca connection and the Quality/MGM connection may also indicate what happened in the UK re London/Stateside. Obviously London (UK) was linked to Decca (UK) which also owned London in the U.S. and Canada. MGM seemed to have ties to EMI in the UK, if you look at Bok To Bach UK issue it has the same "Sold subject etc." as EMI releases of the same period. One things for sure, the Revilot label was a strange one when it came to rights/distribution etc, even in the UK it's product came out on at least 4 different labels, London, Stateside, Polydor, Track.

[maslar]

On 20/02/2018 at 20:37, Kegsy said:

To be honest I really can't  understand why anybody would bother bootlegging a record that was never that rare in the first place after say 1972.

I can answer that -because i bought one in the late 70s. -Demand. It was easy to get hold of on a Saturday afternoon and relatively cheap. Ive still got it -

[Kegsy]

3 minutes ago, maslar said:

I can answer that -because i bought one in the late 70s. -Demand. It was easy to get hold of on a Saturday afternoon and relatively cheap. Ive still got it -

 

The record stayed in the U.S. charts for yonks so there will have been numerous legit re-presses done in the U.S. to keep up with demand, which would account for all the variations.

[Tlscapital]

2 minutes ago, Kegsy said:

The record stayed in the U.S. charts for yonks so there will have been numerous legit re-presses done in the U.S. to keep up with demand, which would account for all the variations.

And or bootleg$...

[Soulhawk]

you occasionally find the vinyl pressing here in Detroit

I think the vinyl to styrene ratio is like one in 20

the sound quality of vinyl is better and I've no reason the suspect it's a bootleg, just a pressing sourced to another plant to meet immediate demand on a hit record

 

[Tlscapital]

22 minutes ago, soulhawk said:

you occasionally find the vinyl pressing here in Detroit

I think the vinyl to styrene ratio is like one in 20

the sound quality of vinyl is better and I've no reason the suspect it's a bootleg, just a pressing sourced to another plant to meet immediate demand on a hit record

 

The trouble is the "photocopy" kind of label of the Darrel Banks on vinyl. If pressed at another pressing plant, the typo should change like it's the case for these by example;

But both those 2 "pink" and "grey" pressed on vinyl look like they just "borrowed" the label from the styrene one... Even the "grey" vinyl variation as shown here below !

Edited February 22, 2018 by tlscapital

[Guest soash]

51 minutes ago, Kegsy said:

The record stayed in the U.S. charts for yonks so there will have been numerous legit re-presses done in the U.S. to keep up with demand, which would account for all the variations.

My understanding is that Revilot went bust in 67/68, so maybe (I don't know), any pressings after that on the Revilot label would be unlicenced??

[Soulhawk]

14 minutes ago, tlscapital said:

The trouble is the "photocopy" kind of label of the Darrel Banks on vinyl. If pressed at another pressing plant, the typo should change like it's the case for these by example;

But both those 2 "pink" and "grey" pressed on vinyl look like they just "borrowed" the label from the styrene one... Even the "grey" vinyl variation as shown here below !

I have no idea what you are talking about. I have a pink label vinyl copy and grey styrene copy sitting in front of me and the typefaces and layout are identical

 

 

[Kegsy]

19 minutes ago, soash said:

My understanding is that Revilot went bust in 67/68, so maybe (I don't know), any pressings after that on the Revilot label would be unlicenced??

The label might not have been in business but Don Davis and Lebaron Taylor were still in the business, so any later pressing may have been legit even though they used a now defunct label. Look what happened when Global simply ordered The Carstairs on Red Coach from the U.S.

Edited February 22, 2018 by Kegsy

[Tlscapital]

26 minutes ago, soulhawk said:

I have no idea what you are talking about. I have a pink label vinyl copy and grey styrene copy sitting in front of me and the typefaces and layout are identical

 

 

Exactly so if they were press at different pressing plants the typefaces and or typography of the credits should be different as you can see with the 2 examples (and there are more examples) of the Parliaments 'good old music' and J.J. Barnes 'our love is in the pocket first on multi colored label styrene and the on pink label vinyl where the typos are different logically. It's not the case of DarrelL Banks o Revilot 201 !!!

Edited February 22, 2018 by tlscapital

[Soulhawk]

they used the same run of labels on the vinyl and styrene, so what?

the guy we are talking about is Darrell Banks, not 'Darrel Banks' 

at least spell his name right

 

 

[Tlscapital]

Remember browsing through NOS USA import records here in Brussels and stumbling on dodgy looking (grubby label and hazy printings) multiple releases of Martha Reeves and the Vandellas 'heatwave' on Gordy and a Supremes on Motown (was it 'baby love') and they even sounded bad enough. Learned after (pre-internet days so information was not as easily reachable) that they were contemporary bootleg made from a Motown "insider" for the American market to cash in on the sales...

[Kegsy]

21 minutes ago, tlscapital said:

Exactly so if they were press at different pressing plants the typefaces and or typography of the credits should be different as you can see with the 2 examples (and there are more examples) of the Parliaments 'good old music' and J.J. Barnes 'our love is in the pocket first on multi colored label styrene and the on pink label vinyl where the typos are different logically. It's not the case of Darrel Banks o Revilot 201 !!!

If you check out ALL the later pink label releases 225 onwards you will see the type faces are all different to the earlier pink releases. Plus the type face on the multi-coloured label can't be compared to the pink ones as it was probably redone when the new design came in.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2018 by Kegsy

[Soulhawk]

checking my ebay sales records, I sold a copy of the vinyl pressing in May 2004 for $33.64 to a buyer named 'Kenneth Darge'

 

 

 

[Briank]

I have a different shade of grey of 201 that is styrene and is etched.  Revilot 203 dj is styrene  and etched also if this helps any.

[The Yank]

3 hours ago, tlscapital said:

 where the typos are different logically. 

Where is this "typo" ????

Also- I don't know why you would think this was a photocopied label. If you look at the logo on the grey styrene copy , The Revilot is lower and the line underneath

the logo is at a different angle. If this was photocopied wouldn't it  look exactly the same ?

 

Edited February 22, 2018 by the yank

[Chris L]

14 hours ago, tlscapital said:

Not all bootlegs aimed at the British folks on that small Island west of the European Continent. For example Americans also use to have their own contemporary bootlegs to cash in on hit records sales, not only on rare records... So Darrel Banks 'open the door...' could have suffered that fate. Many of these seem to come out of "discounted" batches with the drill cut-out holes. So likely they were in the official commercial circuit. Still not meaning that they were legit none the less.

For facts, I can't say what it is exactly with this pink vinyl variation but since, at Ric-Tic  they had indeed few later numbers issued both on vinyl and styrene, even switching back to the pink labels for those vinyl issues, when they had switch to the multi-colored labels by then. So they could have throw in a new release of Darrel Banks there to supply a maybe lasting demand... Only the typo on the label of the vinyl copies of Darrel Banks in this case suggest that it is a photocopy of the styrene issue...

Thing it got legitimately re-released many times in the US so why add a boot ?

[Chris L]

6 hours ago, briank said:

I have a different shade of grey of 201 that is styrene and is etched.  Revilot 203 dj is styrene  and etched also if this helps any.

 

Is is a single sided one ? 

[Briank]

No, has same title both sides.

[maslar]

Focussing on the 201 would it be possible to produce a (near?) definitive list of legitimate issue (and reissues). and then those that are not. Including styene and vinyl versions that could once and for all put an end to any confusion. The info tends to get fragmented then re-run, then misinterpreted etc etc. E.g. is it now established that there were pink (and grey?) label vinyl issues released originally?

 

Edited February 23, 2018 by maslar

[Tlscapital]

13 hours ago, Chris L said:

Thing it got legitimately re-released many times in the US so why add a boot ?

My answer is I quote myself once again " contemporary bootlegs to cash in on hit records sales ". The bootleg biz is about money and not much else. Vanity maybe sometimes...

[Chris L]

12 hours ago, briank said:

No, has same title both sides.

Only ever saw 1 single sided.