Deleted 45's As 'ballast' For Ships

[Guest eedeecee]

The story goes that in the 60's and early 70's lots of deleted records from The States travelled over to the UK and Europe as ballast for the large ships. On arrival the ballast was no longer needed and was consequently dumped in warehouses.

So the story goes, but does anyone knows if there's any documented proof of this?

Like a book or stories from people who actually bought records that came in as such...

[Paul McKay]

I've certainly been told this by several Scandinavians.

[Guest uroffal]

The story goes that in the 60's and early 70's lots of deleted records from The States travelled over to the UK and Europe as ballast for the large ships. On arrival the ballast was no longer needed and was consequently dumped in warehouses.

So the story goes, but does anyone knows if there's any documented proof of this?

Like a book or stories from people who actually bought records that came in as such...

That's weird - I was only thinking about this the other day! I can remember it being discussed regulalrly years ago - never seen any documented eveidence of it though.

[Karlm]

I've certainly been told this by several Scandinavians.

Hi Paul sure this wasn't about containers with deleted albums ("cut outs")? They where merchandise not used as ballast. Think I read the ballast story on the back of a Kent compilation album?

[Gasher]

THERE WAS A BATCH OF THE SENSATIONS DEMANDING MAN ALL TURNED UP WHITH WATER DAMAGED LABELS AND WATERMARKED VINYL FROM BEING FOUND STORED IN A SHIPS HULL APPARENTLY

ANY TRUTH WHO KNOWS ????????

IF ONLY THE VINYL CAN TELL YOU.

THERES A GREAT THOUGHT

WOULDNT IT BE BRILLIANT IF THE VINYL COULD ACTUALLY TALK AND TELL YOU WHERE IT HAD BEEN FOR THE LAST 40 YEARS AND WHO OWNED IT WHEN AND WHERE AND HOW IT GOT TO WHERE IT IS TODAY..

MY THATS GOOD SHIT IN THAT SPLIFF YEAH MAN YEAH..

MOST OF IT WOULD SAY

IVE BEEN SITTING IN A BOX IN MANSHIPS CUPBOARD

HAHA

[Martint]

I don't know the answer but as I did read someone suggest elsewhere - why on earth would they use old soul records for ballast on ships - surely you would use something like SAND or something cheaper and more easily attainable and transportable.... seems rather unlikely that someone would say 'let's transport a load of old deleted 45 rpm records to the port so we can use them as ballast on our ships'....'yeah, great idea, I'll send some vans to downdown detroit....'

it would be nice to get a 'whisky galore' type find somewhere on a coast to prove this theory though..... '300 copies of Lester Tipton reported washed up on the Isle of Skye this afternoon.....'

soul content - washed ashore. I'll get me coat.....

[TEDDY EDDY]

The story goes that in the 60's and early 70's lots of deleted records from The States travelled over to the UK and Europe as ballast for the large ships. On arrival the ballast was no longer needed and was consequently dumped in warehouses.

So the story goes, but does anyone knows if there's any documented proof of this?

Like a book or stories from people who actually bought records that came in as such...

yes they came in wooden tea chests my mum used to buy loads of them {dont ask} and me and two mates would look through them pete higson and alad called guy hennigan,,loads of mgm,s 20th centurys etc we were after 110 mph stuff then 33 years ago so god knows what was in them...Used to take em to wigan and sell em for 25p each

wouldnt mind afew tea chests full these days though ,,

good days good mates,,,,,,

[Guest Stuart T]

I don't know the answer but as I did read someone suggest elsewhere - why on earth would they use old soul records for ballast on ships - surely you would use something like SAND or something cheaper and more easily attainable and transportable.... seems rather unlikely that someone would say 'let's transport a load of old deleted 45 rpm records to the port so we can use them as ballast on our ships'....'yeah, great idea, I'll send some vans to downdown detroit....'

Main ballast tanks are generally water filled, enhancing the transfer of alien species around the world in ballast discharge. But solid ballast is or was also used. Given the respective balance of trade I'd imagine that there would be a lot more ships going to the US in ballast rather than the other way? Like the Whisky Galore angle though, I wonder how many rare records are still sitting in the hull of some wrecked old tramp steamer? It'd take some soul pirates to capture them.

[steve z]

The story goes that in the 60's and early 70's lots of deleted records from The States travelled over to the UK and Europe as ballast for the large ships. On arrival the ballast was no longer needed and was consequently dumped in warehouses.

So the story goes, but does anyone knows if there's any documented proof of this?

Like a book or stories from people who actually bought records that came in as such...

Hiya ,also heard that the drill hole allowed the said tunes to be strung up in the hold

Gotta say think its all Urban Mythology though

However the Egyptions did burn Mummies to fuel the Trains ATB Steve

[Mr Soul]

i feel sure there is some truth in the ballast story i used to get loads from viva in portsmouth and these used to distribute whole sale so consequently you could get records turning up on market stalls all over the country i've had some great finds which were top tunes at the casino the b.b shot is just a deletion thing as was gold marked paint on A.B.C and corner cutting on albums woody

[Chalky]

Hiya ,also heard that the drill hole allowed the said tunes to be strung up in the hold

Gotta say think its all Urban Mythology though

However the Egyptions did burn Mummies to fuel the Trains ATB Steve

I heard the story years ago of records being used as ballast.

BB hole is for deletion purposes, anyway why drill a hole to hang 'em on when there a big bugger already in the middle

[Godzilla]

i feel sure there is some truth in the ballast story i used to get loads from viva in portsmouth and these used to distribute whole sale so consequently you could get records turning up on market stalls all over the country i've had some great finds which were top tunes at the casino the b.b shot is just a deletion thing as was gold marked paint on A.B.C and corner cutting on albums woody

I reckon the clue is the "Port" part of Portsmouth. There are other ways of tranporting goods on ships than using said goods as ballast. Given that American sailors could probably pick up deleted records for next to nothing, and the fact that by the mid 60s there was already a market for soul 45s in the UK, isn't it more likely explanation that there was a bit of trade going on?

Godz

[Soul Shrews]

The story goes that in the 60's and early 70's lots of deleted records from The States travelled over to the UK and Europe as ballast for the large ships. On arrival the ballast was no longer needed and was consequently dumped in warehouses.

I've also heard about this, in my case it was loads of motown albums.

Would also like to see some proof.

Cheers Paul

[steve z]

I heard the story years ago of records being used as ballast.

BB hole is for deletion purposes, anyway why drill a hole to hang 'em on when there a big bugger already in the middle

Hi Chalky ,Ballast aims to keep a Ship steady.......big hole little hole.Do You know why a drill hole determines deletion? ATB Steve

[paultp]

Hi Chalky ,Ballast aims to keep a Ship steady.......big hole little hole.Do You know why a drill hole determines deletion? ATB Steve

My understanding of the drill hole is that records went out to record shops at issue time on a sale or return basis. If something didn't sell it was returned to the distributor. In order to get some return the records were then shipped back to the shops at much lower prices for the shops to sell on at discounted prices. The distributors used to use a machine to drill a small hole through a pile of 45's so they could spot them if some shady dealer tried to return them again. Similar thing to cutting off the corners of LP's. I dunno why this is referred to as a BB hole tho.

Cheers

Paul

[Godzilla]

My understanding of the drill hole is that records went out to record shops at issue time on a sale or return basis. If something didn't sell it was returned to the distributor. In order to get some return the records were then shipped back to the shops at much lower prices for the shops to sell on at discounted prices. The distributors used to use a machine to drill a small hole through a pile of 45's so they could spot them if some shady dealer tried to return them again. Similar thing to cutting off the corners of LP's. I dunno why this is referred to as a BB hole tho.

Cheers

Paul

Isn't it just because it looks like one, Paul? That was always my assumption and it seems to be common to most record collectors.

Godz

[pikeys dog]

I dunno why this is referred to as a BB hole tho.

BB = Ball Bearing

BB Guns are a type ofAir rifle in the U.S. that fire small ball bearings - and these create small circular holes in things...

[Godzilla]

BB = Ball Bearing

BB Guns are a type ofAir rifle in the U.S. that fire small ball bearings - and these create small circular holes in things...

Godz

[steve z]

My understanding of the drill hole is that records went out to record shops at issue time on a sale or return basis. If something didn't sell it was returned to the distributor. In order to get some return the records were then shipped back to the shops at much lower prices for the shops to sell on at discounted prices. The distributors used to use a machine to drill a small hole through a pile of 45's so they could spot them if some shady dealer tried to return them again. Similar thing to cutting off the corners of LP's. I dunno why this is referred to as a BB hole tho.

Cheers

Paul

Hi Paul an interesting topic posted ...I've heard lots of different reasons........Think yours is the closest ..........Who drilled them who decided they should be drilled? ATB Steve

[Pete Morgan]

I did hear that bb refered to the bb gun and the hole looked like a bit like the bb bullet hole ? not sure if true or not.

About the ballast thingy, I used to dive a lot in Bermuda in the 80,s. I used to regulary dive on a wreck called the constillation. ( same wreck which derived the Peter Benchley story in the "Deep" book and movie ) . The wreck sank in the early 40,s and i found crates and crates of 78,s buried near the wreck as well as the famous morphine ampules .!

not too sure if it was ballast or just cargo , the 78,s still had lables intact, but they were all fused together.

Pete morgan

[Godzilla]

I did hear that bb refered to the bb gun and the hole looked like a bit like the bb bullet hole ? not sure if true or not.

About the ballast thingy, I used to dive a lot in Bermuda in the 80,s. I used to regulary dive on a wreck called the constillation. ( same wreck which derived the Peter Benchley story in the "Deep" book and movie ) . The wreck sank in the early 40,s and i found crates and crates of 78,s buried near the wreck as well as the famous morphine ampules .!

not too sure if it was ballast or just cargo , the 78,s still had lables intact, but they were all fused together.

Pete morgan

They wouldn't use morphine as ballast - the ships would get high...

Godz

[Mr Soul]

I reckon the clue is the "Port" part of Portsmouth. There are other ways of tranporting goods on ships than using said goods as ballast. Given that American sailors could probably pick up deleted records for next to nothing, and the fact that by the mid 60s there was already a market for soul 45s in the UK, isn't it more likely explanation that there was a bit of trade going on?

Godz

WHAT BY THE THOUSAND?!

[Godzilla]

Mr Soul (sorry - quote function seems to be a bit iffy on my compy at the mo)

Why not in the the thousands mate?

You can fit a couple of hundred 45s in a duffle bag and if you're offloading them at or near the port it's not too much hassle. You'd probably have to do it in bulk to appeal to anyone wanting to buy as well - although you'd probably have to sprinkle liberally with Motown / Stax / Atlantic to tempt them.

All speculation of course - although my uncle in Liverpool used to buy US rock & roll 45s from dockers in the 60s when the boom had more or less gone.

Godz

Edited November 23, 2006 by Godzilla

[Guest Netspeaky]

Our Ice Cream man used to sell US imports on his round back in the late 60's early 70's asked him were he got them he said Liverpool docks.

Edited November 23, 2006 by Netspeaky

[Guest eedeecee]

My understanding of the drill hole is that records went out to record shops at issue time on a sale or return basis. If something didn't sell it was returned to the distributor. In order to get some return the records were then shipped back to the shops at much lower prices for the shops to sell on at discounted prices. The distributors used to use a machine to drill a small hole through a pile of 45's so they could spot them if some shady dealer tried to return them again. Similar thing to cutting off the corners of LP's. I dunno why this is referred to as a BB hole tho.

Cheers

Paul

Paul,

I believe that your explanation comes near to the truth. From what I've been told by people working in a record pressing plant at the time the hole in the label was actually drilled in with a very hot needle, long enough to puncture a few hundred 45's at the time. The hot needle melted a hole into the vinyl, sometimes the residue of excess vinyl formed a ring around the hole once it cooled off. I own some of these myself and it makes sense once I think about this practice.

The custom in the US at the time was indeed that the distributors took unsold stock back from the stores. Americans don't like 'losers' so I am pretty sure that any 45 that didn't chart immediately or was sold in vast quantities just dissapeared from the shelves, maybe after a few weeks or so...to make way for new releases.

It is very well possible IMO that a distributor just got rid of any excess stock that was gathering dust too long in their warehouses...so it was sold to a company that used vinyl as protection for shipcargo. Why not? After all, the raw material is cheap and since the records were of no significant meaning to any one they were used as 'boxed' ballast on ships. At the time when vinyl was king I am pretty sure as well that more records were produced that any market could ever consume. I do not think this is a ridiculous point of view.

And of course, it was not only the cream of Northern Soul that came to the UK or Europe as shipcargo but ALL vinyl that was unwanted in the USA> c&w, pop, crooners, jazz, classical, mainstream etc. etc. I am sure that the vinyl was not treated gently either when used as 'ballast'; imagine boxes of records stacked on top of each other and crammed between cargo, getting wet, broken etc. etc. So the stock that survived the journey must have been rescued and sold by some entrepreneur.

Again; I believe that this surely happened at some point in the past....and I want some proof of this.

Maybe some American, more close to the subject of deleted or cut-outs can shed some light on the custom of dumping big quantities of vinyl this way...

[Guest]

The story goes that in the 60's and early 70's lots of deleted records from The States travelled over to the UK and Europe as ballast for the large ships. On arrival the ballast was no longer needed and was consequently dumped in warehouses.

So the story goes, but does anyone knows if there's any documented proof of this?

Like a book or stories from people who actually bought records that came in as such...

its true...i had a copy of freddie houston - if i had known on old town from RHYL spin which actually smelled of salt and sea......them shops are all gone now

[Guest]

Paul,

I believe that your explanation comes near to the truth. From what I've been told by people working in a record pressing plant at the time the hole in the label was actually drilled in with a very hot needle, long enough to puncture a few hundred 45's at the time. The hot needle melted a hole into the vinyl, sometimes the residue of excess vinyl formed a ring around the hole once it cooled off. I own some of these myself and it makes sense once I think about this practice.

The custom in the US at the time was indeed that the distributors took unsold stock back from the stores. Americans don't like 'losers' so I am pretty sure that any 45 that didn't chart immediately or was sold in vast quantities just dissapeared from the shelves, maybe after a few weeks or so...to make way for new releases.

It is very well possible IMO that a distributor just got rid of any excess stock that was gathering dust too long in their warehouses...so it was sold to a company that used vinyl as protection for shipcargo. Why not? After all, the raw material is cheap and since the records were of no significant meaning to any one they were used as 'boxed' ballast on ships. At the time when vinyl was king I am pretty sure as well that more records were produced that any market could ever consume. I do not think this is a ridiculous point of view.

And of course, it was not only the cream of Northern Soul that came to the UK or Europe as shipcargo but ALL vinyl that was unwanted in the USA> c&w, pop, crooners, jazz, classical, mainstream etc. etc. I am sure that the vinyl was not treated gently either when used as 'ballast'; imagine boxes of records stacked on top of each other and crammed between cargo, getting wet, broken etc. etc. So the stock that survived the journey must have been rescued and sold by some entrepreneur.

Again; I believe that this surely happened at some point in the past....and I want some proof of this.

Maybe some American, more close to the subject of deleted or cut-outs can shed some

light on the custom of dumping big quantities of vinyl this way...

what do they use for ballast these days! House music?

[Guest]

what water damaged records do we own? howard guyton verve demos for one - proof that certain records were all wet at some point!!!!!

[FrankM]

I reckon the clue is the "Port" part of Portsmouth. There are other ways of tranporting goods on ships than using said goods as ballast. Given that American sailors could probably pick up deleted records for next to nothing, and the fact that by the mid 60s there was already a market for soul 45s in the UK, isn't it more likely explanation that there was a bit of trade going on?

It's as mythical as Cunard yanks.

It was also suggested that American comics were used as ballast in the fifties and sixties. What were we shipping to the states that meant they had to ballast ships on the return journey. There were warehouse clearances and US records that ended up in supermarkest and other odd sales outlets. Where did soul packs come from?

[Guest espo]

We used to troll through a junk shop in Middlesbrough in the early 70s chock full of singles floor to ceiling,cardboard boxes full etc and the guy who owned it told us they were all ballast off the ships-----wish it was still there we found some top tunes at the time.

[Jerry Hipkiss]

what water damaged records do we own? howard guyton verve demos for one - proof that certain records were all wet at some point!!!!!

The Verve demos were damaged due to a flood at the warehouse, or so I was once told - still wouldn't part with my High Keys though .

If the ballast story is a myth, then it's a verrrry old one, I remember hearing it in the early 70's. Also at that time, which must seem unbelievable to younger soulies, Tesco had loads of imports at 10pence each (still got a cover with the price tag on it!). I remember getting Watts 103rd on Keymen, Bob and Earl "Sissy" on Chene, Donnie Elbert on Command Performance among others, nothing too rare but nice collection fillers, the most valuable turned out to be Status Quo demos on Cadet Concept! Did anyone actually get any real valuables from that haul?

Hippo.

[Guest sydney bridge]

hi, i´ve just rang my father who constantly to and froed from the states for the blue star line in the sixties.heres his explanation.................

boxed ballast is a term that exists from sailing ship days when ships had no ballast tanks,even by the 20s steam ships were being fitted with pumpable ballast tanks,by the 60s and 70s all ballast was controlled by simply emptying and filling tanks with the stuff that was constantly around them.so not much cause really to go to the expense of loading records into trucks,off trucks and into ships.

sounds like someones wild dream.

cheers curnow.

[Guest Paul]

We used to troll through a junk shop in Middlesbrough in the early 70s chock full of singles floor to ceiling,cardboard boxes full etc and the guy who owned it told us they were all ballast off the ships-----wish it was still there we found some top tunes at the time.

Hello Espo,

I went to the same shop, POP-IN, in the early 1970s when I was about 15. They had a hell of a lot of American 45s and told me the same story about the ballast - and with Middlesbrough being a major port I believed them. I think it was on Princes Road, not far from where I live today.

Paul Mooney

[Guest sydney bridge]

Its just crossed my mind that perhaps there was a legal loophole that allowed heavy things to be classed as ballast thus avoiding import duty maybe,under an old law that hadnt been repealed,just a thought.

[Steve G]

We must remember the role the Mafia played in the distribution business. Some of their finest were buying and reselling and rebuying and reselling stock (and more often than not pretending to buy and sell as a tax scam). They had truckloads of old records going back and forth across the USA and conceivably shipped lots of records by boat. I don't believe 45s were generally used as ballast, but it's quite conceivable that crates / containers of records were going backwards and forwards on vessels under some sale / return con.

[pikeys dog]

Our Ice Cream man used to sell US imports on his round back in the late 60's early 70's asked him were he got them he said Liverpool docks.

Our Ice Cream man was called Mr Softee and he sold Walls Funny Feet and Rocket lollies...

No soul 45s, mores the pity'

He was Polish but pretended he was Italian, because he thought he might shift a few more watery cornets if people believed they were getting the genuine stuff.

[Steve G]

Our Ice Cream man used to sell US imports on his round back in the late 60's early 70's asked him were he got them he said Liverpool docks.

Fascinating, another story from NO in the old days. There was a record distributor that had these Ice Cream type vans, but with a record player and loudspeakers. So instead of ding-a-lings you'd get the latest Bobby Bland 45 blasting out. Anyway he'd go out to a neighborhood on a daily / weekly basis, park up and start playing all the new releases, before moving on a few blocks to the next location. People would come out and buy the records they heard from his van, which was to all intents and purposes a converted Ice Cream van. Absolutely true story.

[Guest uroffal]

Fascinating, another story from NO in the old days. There was a record distributor that had these Ice Cream type vans, but with a record player and loudspeakers. So instead of ding-a-lings you'd get the latest Bobby Bland 45 blasting out. Anyway he'd go out to a neighborhood on a daily / weekly basis, park up and start playing all the new releases, before moving on a few blocks to the next location. People would come out and buy the records they heard from his van, which was to all intents and purposes a converted Ice Cream van. Absolutely true story.

Manship's come a long way since those heady days

[Russ Vickers]

The story goes that in the 60's and early 70's lots of deleted records from The States travelled over to the UK and Europe as ballast for the large ships. On arrival the ballast was no longer needed and was consequently dumped in warehouses.

So the story goes, but does anyone knows if there's any documented proof of this?

Like a book or stories from people who actually bought records that came in as such...

I have heard the ballast story many times on the South Coast in connection with Southampton Docks, certainly would explain the plethora of US imports there were knocking around the South Coast in all the second hand record stores etc.........may also explain why the South Coast area is one of those strange oasis's of N soul that you got darn sarf sometimes.

Russ

[Guest in town Mikey]

I have heard the ballast story many times on the South Coast in connection with Southampton Docks, certainly would explain the plethora of US imports there were knocking around the South Coast in all the second hand record stores etc.........may also explain why the South Coast area is one of those strange oasis's of N soul that you got darn sarf sometimes.

Russ

I have heard it too re Liverpool.

No idea then why Liverpool is almost ignored in Northern Soul circles. You'd imagine it would have been much more important.

[Mike]

is it not a case of that they were used instead of ballast

as doesn't a ship have to be carrying a certain load for best performace, stability etc

so if the load a ship is carrying is light then it would need ballast

but instead of using the normal ballast (water tanks), would it not make sense to throw on some heavy goods that can flog off at the other end ?

so perhaps were used as sort of ballast but not in the way everyone is thinking ?

[Guest PeterW]

Fascinating, another story from NO in the old days. There was a record distributor that had these Ice Cream type vans, but with a record player and loudspeakers. So instead of ding-a-lings you'd get the latest Bobby Bland 45 blasting out. Anyway he'd go out to a neighborhood on a daily / weekly basis, park up and start playing all the new releases, before moving on a few blocks to the next location. People would come out and buy the records they heard from his van, which was to all intents and purposes a converted Ice Cream van. Absolutely true story.

Like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvTAqbHR5NU

[Sean Hampsey]

The story goes that in the 60's and early 70's lots of deleted records from The States travelled over to the UK and Europe as ballast for the large ships. On arrival the ballast was no longer needed and was consequently dumped in warehouses.

So the story goes, but does anyone knows if there's any documented proof of this?

Like a book or stories from people who actually bought records that came in as such...

And, somewhere in a parallel universe....

https://www.djhistory.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7215

A brief explanation, though not conclusive.

Sean

[Little-stevie]

is it not a case of that they were used instead of ballast

as doesn't a ship have to be carrying a certain load for best performace, stability etc

so if the load a ship is carrying is light then it would need ballast

but instead of using the normal ballast (water tanks), would it not make sense to throw on some heavy goods that can flog off at the other end ?

so perhaps were used as sort of ballast but not in the way everyone is thinking ?

Yes Mike

Thats the way i heard the story too regarding Liverpool,records just thrown away at the other end and a few ending up in junk shops..

[Guest Baz]

Yes Mike

Thats the way i heard the story too regarding Liverpool,records just thrown away at the other end and a few ending up in junk shops..

Soul-source will be dead next week....every one's fcuked off to all the ports scouring the wearhouses for 'balast'

[Little-stevie]

I've certainly been told this by several Scandinavians.

Yes i know of thousand of these tunes being found in a hut in the woods in Finland by a well know soulie from there...Great story..Just sat there on wooden crates for days and days going through many many thousand original 45s...

I know that would be better than sex for a good few on here ..They would have the 45s in one hand and something else in the other ,lots of whoooooooooping and then a tugging sound...Now that would be a great opening for a movie...Casting soon so please drop me a line if you have the right tools ..

Edited November 24, 2006 by little-stevie

[Dave Abbott]

My understanding of the drill hole is that records went out to record shops at issue time on a sale or return basis. If something didn't sell it was returned to the distributor. In order to get some return the records were then shipped back to the shops at much lower prices for the shops to sell on at discounted prices. The distributors used to use a machine to drill a small hole through a pile of 45's so they could spot them if some shady dealer tried to return them again. Similar thing to cutting off the corners of LP's. I dunno why this is referred to as a BB hole tho.

Cheers

Paul

thats right paul, it was to stop dealers/wharehouse/shops returning a 45 (or cut album) for a full credit.

as for the Portsmouth/Southampton link, i can concur with that. many a time i have picked a Sensations or Don Gardner off southsea beach and used it for skimming. my 'record' being 5 skips from an Al Wilson; not betting my bestest ever of 8 from a nice flat pebble though.

[Jordirip]

Fascinating, another story from NO in the old days. There was a record distributor that had these Ice Cream type vans, but with a record player and loudspeakers. So instead of ding-a-lings you'd get the latest Bobby Bland 45 blasting out. Anyway he'd go out to a neighborhood on a daily / weekly basis, park up and start playing all the new releases, before moving on a few blocks to the next location. People would come out and buy the records they heard from his van, which was to all intents and purposes a converted Ice Cream van. Absolutely true story.

It's still like that in Jamaica Steve, or it was when I was last there about 7 years ago, and if it wasn't vans it was little huts the size of a small garden shed.

Jordi

[Russ Vickers]

thats right paul, it was to stop dealers/wharehouse/shops returning a 45 (or cut album) for a full credit.

as for the Portsmouth/Southampton link, i can concur with that. many a time i have picked a Sensations or Don Gardner off southsea beach and used it for skimming. my 'record' being 5 skips from an Al Wilson; not betting my bestest ever of 8 from a nice flat pebble though.

My best skip down Southsea was from Skip Jackson..............10 skips.............however prior to this the world record was held by Skip Mahoney at 8 & 3/4 skips, did try to skip a skip once but it sank .

Hello Dave .

Russ