Issue, Re-issue,Pressing, Boot - All a bit confusing.

[Fishdockroad]

Following a conversation today with a friend I realized that I couldn't fully give a definitive answer to the question as to how you define each of the above (see title).  I thought I had a good grasp on it but when pressed, no pun,  found myself confusing myself. He's got a bunch of records that he's looking to sell and doesn't want to mis sell by giving the wrong info so thought I'd put it on here.

Issue goes without saying but what about,

Re - issue. I take that as a legal re - issue of an older record by the record company.

Pressing. Legal new issue under licence ?

Boot. Illegal and sourced from a sound file of some description?

Counterfeit. Same as a boot ??

I'm sure there are others so please feel free to add to any replies.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

[Guest Gogs]

seems ok to me but somebody else might have a different opinion

[Benji]

Plenty of topics here on Soul Source covering that. Just search the site and you'll get all the answers.

I'd say general consent in a nutshell is:

reissue - legal later issue (later meaning much later, not just a year or two after the first release)

bootleg/pressing - illegal later release

counterfeit: see bootleg/pressing but with an affort to look like the original legal issue

[Hill868]

What about 2nd issue, usually meaning a record that came out legally twice, in most US cases, within a year or two of each other.  Good example - Al Williams, on La Beat and Palmer, but both terribly expensive. (Actually not that good an example, don't think Palmer issues exist, only demos) ?

[Chalky]

4 hours ago, HILL868 said:

What about 2nd issue, usually meaning a record that came out legally twice, in most US cases, within a year or two of each other.  Good example - Al Williams, on La Beat and Palmer, but both terribly expensive. (Actually not that good an example, don't think Palmer issues exist, only demos) ?

AL Williams is local and national release.  

[Bbrich]

technically 'pressing' relates to the physical manufacturing process of making a disc i.e. at the pressing plant. So you could refer to test press, first press, second press etc..    although it is commonly used as the terminology for a bootleg/illegal pressing......     as chalky has referred to there are (many) examples of local & national releases and i thought (so long as fairly near in timescales) they would both be thought of as an original rather than a re-issue - be interested to know if others take a different view on this. 

Edited November 24, 2017 by bbrich
missed a bit

[Ian Stacey]

1 hour ago, bbrich said:

technically 'pressing' relates to the physical manufacturing process of making a disc i.e. at the pressing plant. So you could refer to test press, first press, second press etc..    although it is commonly used as the terminology for a bootleg/illegal pressing......     as chalky has referred to there are (many) examples of local & national releases and i thought (so long as fairly near in timescales) they would both be thought of as an original rather than a re-issue - be interested to know if others take a different view on this. 

 i would take the same view as you local & national are both  originals  (as long as time gap is within a couple of years i would say a the same .

the special products ones by Columbia always confuses me as they are off the original plate & are stamped  & not a remixed  . maybe some would like to answer that because i do not really get that at all . 

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, IAN STACEY said:

 i would take the same view as you local & national are both  originals  (as long as time gap is within a couple of years i would say a the same .

the special products ones by Columbia always confuses me as they are off the original plate & are stamped  & not a remixed  . maybe some would like to answer that because i do not really get that at all . 

local and national are original, no argument there.

CSP were done specially due to demand created by the scene were they not.

[Patto]

Agreed with Ian and Chalky.The Columbia Special Product releases are around 1977 almost 10 years after the original epic releases.They were done to fuel the demand from the scene and can only be classed as later reissues even though they are totally legit.

I have heard a few get confused with bootlegs and countrfeits.Counterfeits are still bootlegs but are done with close to identicle labels with the strict purpose to decieve and be passed off as originals.

Also as brich stated the term Pressing is widely used to refere to a bootleg

[Chalky]

Counterfeit and bootleg are not the same.  Counterfeit is done to deceive or defraud the buyer.

[Pete S]

In the 70's, any big sound that was reissued on a USA label was called a pressing whether it was a boot or a legal reissue - it was just a generic term

[Wiggyflat]

Bootleg-Unofficial release without legal permission.Usually live gigs by big bands.Led Zepp/The Who/Dylan etc sometimes sourced from soundboards.People call pressings bootlegs.

Pressing/Counterfeit-Created to deceive.They have no indications that these were pressed unofficially and it is only the matrix marks/wrong colours/fictitious labels that give it away.Historically once a record was pressed it was dropped from playlists.They have had a new lease of life in  revivalist gigs.Sometimes there were so few originals that they were repressed to satisfy demand.Some pressings were not created for the northern scene at all and created to cover the demand on popcorn scenes or local US oldies scenes.

O.V.O-This has come into play once the newie/dropped once pressed element went.   

Reissue-Legally repressed by the record company sometimes US reissues have very small indications or none at all.ie Gold Brunswicks/Line And Track.Some have very obvious signs Oldies Unlimited.

Tailor Made-A record created with the northern soul market in mind.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2017 by wiggyflat

[Ian Stacey]

49 minutes ago, chalky said:

Counterfeit and bootleg are not the same.  Counterfeit is done to deceive or defraud the buyer.

oh definitely i got fooled 20 years ago with a counterfeit  a very expensive mistake  .i stopped buying because of it .only found out when dave evison djed along side me & spotted the name in the run out groove initials of the bootlegger ckeeky bugger 

[Patto]

Just now, IAN STACEY said:

oh definitely i got fooled 20 years ago with a counterfeit  a very expensive mistake  .i stopped buying because of it .only found out when dave evison djed along side me & spotted the name in the run out groove initials of the bootlegger ckeeky bugger 

Been bitten myself Ian prob most of us have over the years.Those 70s lookalike boots,Alexander Patton,Billy Prophet,Mel Britt,Young Hearts have fooled many over the years.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Patto

[Ian Stacey]

the record in question before i get hauled over the coals was the ANDERSON BROTHERS GSF 6914 i can see him loving you  pb in the run out groove also had a ridge near centre hole . well pissed off .stopped me buying untill mannys books came out 

[Patto]

No need to get hauled over the coals mate every one of us has been caught out at some point in time even the so called experts.Its good when we can admit it and pass on the knowlege

Agree the Manny first bootleg guide saved my blushes several times

Seen That P.B in a few bootlegs runouts,always wandered who he was or maybe it just stands for Perfect Boot 

[Davetay]

5 hours ago, Patto said:

No need to get hauled over the coals mate every one of us has been caught out at some point in time even the so called experts.Its good when we can admit it and pass on the knowlege

Agree the Manny first bootleg guide saved my blushes several times

Seen That P.B in a few bootlegs runouts,always wandered who he was or maybe it just stands for Perfect Boot 

Simon did them,  lots of the in demand sounds at the time and even a few that he had as unknowns. 

The 1st patch hit the UK in 75, then in bulk in 76.

[Cheltsoulnights]

8 hours ago, Patto said:

Been bitten myself Ian prob most of us have over the years.Those 70s lookalike boots,Alexander Patton,Billy Prophet,Mel Britt,Young Hearts have fooled many over the years.

Alexander Patton actually exists with a 2 line title as an original. With the Daisy in the run out groove. The boot is missing the Daisy. I had this in my collection and flagged it up to get the bootleg guide fixed. Its a rare one to find and im sure has been sold cheap previously because of the guide error

[Bunderthollox]

The lines are becoming or have become blurred. Certain reputable dealers are in it thick One shifty reptile got me with a truck load before i found out that boots were even made. No warning-that was low..it really made me feel the sxene had been polluted at that point and that i could trust nobody (Ten years back-lesson learned) For me personally  labels like CSP and Seventy7 are official rereleasing labels along with the newer OuttaSight/Kent the latter who have presented some.magnificent Lost recordings on wax that dont pretend to be owt other than a resissue label..obviously disco demand sigh RCA etc ...were indeed official rereleased material so hey ho buy  carefully, thankfully plenty of kind knowledgable people on here to lend a hand ..soulsource is your friend 

 

 

[Chalky]

5 hours ago, bonhsoulie said:

The lines are becoming or have become blurred. Certain reputable dealers are in it thick One shifty reptile got me with a truck load before i found out that boots were even made. No warning-that was low..it really made me feel the sxene had been polluted at that point and that i could trust nobody (Ten years back-lesson learned) For me personally  labels like CSP and Seventy7 are official rereleasing labels along with the newer OuttaSight/Kent the latter who have presented some.magnificent Lost recordings on wax that dont pretend to be owt other than a resissue label..obviously disco demand sigh RCA etc ...were indeed official rereleased material so hey ho buy  carefully, thankfully plenty of kind knowledgable people on here to lend a hand ..soulsource is your friend 

 

 

Seventy7 can't be lumped into the same category as CSP, Outta Sight and Kent.  It was a Nashville label in its own right owned by John Richbourg, not a label reissuing releases specifically to cater for demand on the UK NS scene.

Edited November 25, 2017 by chalky

[Pete S]

All of the 'original' P.B. bootlegs were on vinyl - they let them in in small quantities so as to not flood the market and some were very very good: George Blackwell and Salvadors being the best - then as Dave says a year later they were done again, this time on the West Coast and all on styrene: J Vanelli, M britt, Salvadors, Joe Hicks, Flirtations, and so on.  Inbetween those two batches was another lot, these are the ones with the dip towards the middle and included Anderson bros, Idle Few (supposed WD), and more obscure things like Jimmy Mack A Woman Is Hard To Understand.  I paid £8 for that so called original Idle Few off Max must have been mid 1976...did he know?  Course he did..

[Guest]

17 hours ago, CheltSoulNights said:

Alexander Patton actually exists with a 2 line title as an original. With the Daisy in the run out groove. The boot is missing the Daisy. I had this in my collection and flagged it up to get the bootleg guide fixed. Its a rare one to find and im sure has been sold cheap previously because of the guide error

Is that not the Canadian issue with the 2 line title?

[washlively]

On 24/11/2017 at 15:42, chalky said:

local and national are original, no argument there.

CSP were done specially due to demand created by the scene were they not.

agree with that 

[Chalky]

15 hours ago, Steve Lane said:

Is that not the Canadian issue with the 2 line title?

Yep

[Cheltsoulnights]

On 26/11/2017 at 10:50, chalky said:

Yep

not on mine usa

and i compared it to other issues on the label

its pretty rare

[Jez Jones]

On 25/11/2017 at 01:52, CheltSoulNights said:

Alexander Patton actually exists with a 2 line title as an original. With the Daisy in the run out groove. The boot is missing the Daisy. I had this in my collection and flagged it up to get the bootleg guide fixed. Its a rare one to find and im sure has been sold cheap previously because of the guide error

If I remember rightly , am sure there was a topic about these Capitol 'boots' stating they used the SAME paper 'type' as the originals for the label --making it even more difficult to spot at first glance

[Guest]

They used proper factory Capital labels!

Edited February 1, 2018 by Guest