Possibly THE Rarest Soul 45?

[Mgm 1251]

1 minute ago, WoodButcher said:

But if the demos were ARP presses why the RCA matrix ?

Confused now ... 

HaHaHa......

[Mgm 1251]

The vinyl  test pressing would normally be the first press,prior to the demo...yeh?....this really could be the very first vinyl press of this legendary tune...... 

[Chalky]

11 minutes ago, WoodButcher said:

But if the demos were ARP presses why the RCA matrix ?

Confused now ... 

The demo hasn't got a RCA matrix have they? It isn't on the label.  

What is the exact matrix details of the demos?

[Woodbutcher]

Same as this TP.

 

[Mgm 1251]

I would have thought that the DM code and number would have been in the run-outs....does it l@@k to have an ARP or RCA connection.....?

Edited November 19, 2017 by MGM 1251

[Julianb]

Just negotiating to sell one of the wife's kidneys.

Will the seller take rupees?

[Tomangoes]

Google search says motown was the biggest customer of the nashville plant.

250 demo copies of dilyiid..were cut, and only 2 survived when Frank got a full time job with motown if he gave up his singing aspirations.

As I said earlier, masters must have survived to officially get the UK issue released. 

I'm sure more info will follow!

Ed

 

[Tomangoes]

For 250, or for that matter any demos to be made, would there quality control depth not have had to have passed it first?

Can't see any vinyl being produced if not?

So why did Berry just not let them get sent out to the radio stations and see the reaction?

Seems drastic to destroy something that obviously cost a few bob to make without giving it any chance at all. 

Ed

[Pete S]

3 hours ago, chalky said:

If they are selling you'd think they would want as much publicity as possible?

Just following orders...

[Woodbutcher]

35 minutes ago, tomangoes said:

Google search says motown was the biggest customer of the nashville plant.

250 demo copies of dilyiid..were cut, and only 2 survived when Frank got a full time job with motown if he gave up his singing aspirations.

As I said earlier, masters must have survived to officially get the UK issue released. 

I'm sure more info will follow!

Ed

 

From Andy Rix's article here on Soul Source

" Despite the fact that the ‘Eddie Foster’ bootleg had sold thousands of copies, UK Tamla Motown decided to issue the record.

The original tapes for both sides of Soul 35019 were requested to be sent to London from America. However, when the tapes were received, they were stereo masters and not the original mono masters. UK Tamla Motown label manager, Gordon Frewin, instantly spotted the technical differences and corrected them at Abbey Road Studios, with the help of his engineer Chris Blair, and the benefit of a copy of the ‘Eddie Foster’ 45 taken to the studio by Motown collector John Lester. TMG 1170 was thus taken from stereo masters but folded into mono for its eventual release on 9th November 1979.  "

[Pete S]

19 hours ago, WoodButcher said:

Fantastic work!

 

[Woodbutcher]

All we need now is a fingerprint expert on the two thumbprints ... 

[Robbk]

1 hour ago, tomangoes said:

For 250, or for that matter any demos to be made, would there quality control depth not have had to have passed it first?

Can't see any vinyl being produced if not?

So why did Berry just not let them get sent out to the radio stations and see the reaction?

Seems drastic to destroy something that obviously cost a few bob to make without giving it any chance at all. 

Ed

The way I understand the situation, Berry wanted to keep Frank Wilson as a producer and songwriter, and wanted him to move to Detroit, to work with Motown's major artists.  He had planned to give Frank an ultimatum that he must choose between being a producer and moving to Detroit, or remaining in LA. and pursuing a singing career.  It stands to reason that he would hold off on sending the DJ copies to DJs, so that there would be no interest in the record to possibly influence Wilson to turn down the producer job offer.

[Robbk]

10 hours ago, chalky said:

But wasn't the original recorded in LA and pressed in Detroit at ARP?  Did the original have a RCA number?

Motown must have sent the master tape to Detroit.  They could easily have originally planned to have the record pressed at RCA Indianapolis.  The demo was made for quality control to listen to it, presumably to make their decision to schedule it for release, or not.

[Pete S]

Stop the press, John Manship says it's a counterfeit, all the other experts are wrong, I'd best smash it into a million pieces hadn't I?

Edited November 19, 2017 by Pete S

[Tomangoes]

Its not yours to smash is it?

 

Ed

[Pete S]

2 minutes ago, tomangoes said:

Its not yours to smash is it?

 

Ed

Very true.  The owner's seen the comments.  They can decide what to do next.

[Raremusicdirect]

Where did JM state this ?

[Mgm 1251]

1 hour ago, Pete S said:

Stop the press, John Manship says it's a counterfeit, all the other experts are wrong, I'd best smash it into a million pieces hadn't I?

To be honest,it's easy for John to say something like that,because,unless those run out details match,which it looks very much like they dont( one is ARP and the other Nash Mat )then the chances of those discs coming from the same stamper are pretty slim...they wouldn't of mastered it twice,would they?

[Jim G]

Might sound daft, but carbon dating might be able to be done the paper and ink to prove its authenticity. JM making a comment without actually having seen and touched the record might have been a bit premature. Let’s not forget it wasnt that long ago people on here were sceptical about the Darrell Banks on uk London issue..

i have no opinion  on this save for it is either the biggest discovery or the biggest hoax, only time will,tell. I really hope it is real though as it would be another great chapter in the Frank Wilson legacy.

Edited November 19, 2017 by jim g

[Woodbutcher]

The QC demo and this TP with the RCA/Nashville matrix , other TP's from ARP .

 

[Mgm 1251]

5 minutes ago, WoodButcher said:

The QC demo and this TP with the RCA/Nashville matrix , other TP's from ARP .

 

Unless the Demo and TP's run out details are the same,then they couldn't of come from the same master stamper...

[Guest MBarrett]

25 minutes ago, jim g said:

carbon dating might be able to be done the paper and ink

 

What about a simple chemical analysis of the ink?

Solvents, resins and pigments will surely all have changed over the last 50+ years.

I'm not a chemist but would have thought it was a doddle to check that out.

[Mgm 1251]

Here's what Jonathon Woodliffe had to say on the sales thread....."TP was made 20 days before the demo"...,

Edited November 20, 2017 by MGM 1251

[Guest carl_p]

Motown could have used RCA merely for the Test Press.     ARP would have put the stamp in the master only after it was received at ARP.  Many of the ARP pressed Motown singles have either the Nashville Matrix or the RCA stamp but a good number have both.

[Simon T]

33 minutes ago, MGM 1251 said:

Unless the Demo and TP's run out details are the same,then they couldn't of come from the same master stamper...

The tracks were recorded several months apart, so when were the 'stampers' electroformed? , probably not at the same time? A record can be pressed with in a matter days of an other "original" release, but have different 'cut numbers' on either or both sides due to high demand i.e. a stamper(s) gets worn out. You could have a test pressing with unique matrix numbers, followed by a demo with different ones, the same or different to the 'issues' leaving the pressing plant a few hours later.

[Pete S]

1 hour ago, RareMusicDirect said:

Where did JM state this ?

On his own FB page.  That's his expert opinion, I disagree with it, end of story.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Pete S

[Mgm 1251]

15 minutes ago, simon t said:

The tracks were recorded several months apart, so when were the 'stampers' electroformed? , probably not at the same time? A record can be pressed with in a matter days of an other "original" release, but have different 'cut numbers' on either or both sides due to high demand i.e. a stamper(s) gets worn out. You could have a test pressing with unique matrix numbers, followed by a demo with different ones, the same or different to the 'issues' leaving the pressing plant a few hours later.

Yep,I see your point,but whatever was initially "detailed" in the run out of the TP,should also be on the demo(the next stage?)and anything else added to it...i.e. ARP stamp..,,

[Mgm 1251]

28 minutes ago, Pete S said:

On his own FB page.  That's his expert opinion, I disagree with it, end of story.

This is great...a "new" rare record has surfaced,and its certainly stirred up a hornets nest....I sincerely hope that it is the real McCoy tho........

[Simon T]

11 minutes ago, MGM 1251 said:

Yep,I see your point,but whatever was initially "detailed" in the run out of the TP,should also be on the demo(the next stage?)and anything else added to it...i.e. ARP stamp..,,

Test Pressings were done to determine the quality of the 'product' leaving the pressing plant, though obviously several 100's/1000's pressings  later in the shops.. Demo's were made to demonstrate the recording to the potential buyers, almost entirely over the sound waves from   radio stations. The production & playing  of a demo didn't pay any royalties the writer/producer - if you wanted to get it out there, you got 'paid' by having it promoted for "free". Once your released record got played by the radio stations you got a few cents/pennies from it's playing. I'll leave Payola & pirate radio for another tread.

[Pete S]

31 minutes ago, MGM 1251 said:

This is great...a "new" rare record has surfaced,and its certainly stirred up a hornets nest....I sincerely hope that it is the real McCoy tho........

I wouldn't have even mentioned it if I thought it were anything but

[Tomangoes]

Although it will probably not be revealed....if an ownership log of the test pressing was available....it would surely end the speculation!

A potential £50k item has to be put under the microscope, so to speak.

Ed

[Chalky]

5 hours ago, Pete S said:

On his own FB page.  That's his expert opinion, I disagree with it, end of story.

What was his reasoning, I can’t see his post on his page?

Edited November 20, 2017 by chalky

[Jim G]

7 hours ago, MBarrett said:

What about a simple chemical analysis of the ink?

Solvents, resins and pigments will surely all have changed over the last 50+ years.

I'm not a chemist but would have thought it was a doddle to check that out.

Good points, I am no chemist, there has to be a wa to authenticate this!

[Jim G]

JM has also said on his Facebook page he will be auctioning Motowns rareest single this Christmas. Wonder what that one is? 

 

[Liamgp]

12 hours ago, Pete S said:

Stop the press, John Manship says it's a counterfeit, all the other experts are wrong, I'd best smash it into a million pieces hadn't I?

If it IS a counterfeit, it's not exactly wise to spend a lot of time and trouble producing one which will come under extremely close scrutiny by people with a hell of a lot of expertise on the matter.

[Pete S]

1 hour ago, LiamGP said:

If it IS a counterfeit, it's not exactly wise to spend a lot of time and trouble producing one which will come under extremely close scrutiny by people with a hell of a lot of expertise on the matter.

Bloody daft record to choose as well!

[Mgm 1251]

55 minutes ago, Pete S said:

Bloody daft record to choose as well!

AhHaHaHa....................

[waterfall_manc]

6 hours ago, chalky said:

What was his reasoning, I can’t see his post on his page?

 

[Tomangoes]

I don't know if John Manship reads these posts or not.

I don't know if he only had the same info as we have seen.

I do know that he sell a lot of records that are rare in one kind or another, and that would include test pressings.

So if it's true that he is stating it's a fake, it has to hold some merit, and I guess he would state why, which seems to be the missing link to this issue.

 

Ed

[mshoals]

On 19-11-2017 at 04:57, RobbK said:

Yes, I'm here.  I never saw nor heard of this test pressing.  It was pressed at RCA Indianapolis, and mastered in Nashville.  Looks legit enough, with that 1964-66 Quality Control stamp, and the mid '60s style test pressing record, with depressed centre area.

Isn't it the other way around: mastered at RCA, pressed at Southern Plastics (assuming it's genuine of course)?

[Wheelsville1]

I really do hope this is the genuine article,I’ve only ever had two white label test pressings through my hands over the years and were identical to the stock release. One was Edgar Crook,that had a Nashville Matrix,the other was Damon Fox and that had Frankford and Wayne. 

[Karl s]

Pete  please

tell us the full story of it As I for one  don’t have Facebook or anything like that and am seriously  dieing to know its story

🇱🇷😁😁

[Woodbutcher]

John now believes it to be the real thing , details to follow ....

[Guest Shufflin]

would finding this impact the value of the other copies in any way? what is a likely final price (stupid question I guess)

[Pete S]

1 hour ago, WoodButcher said:

John now believes it to be the real thing , details to follow ....

Thats because I got the owner to ring him

[macca]

Dreams are made of this. Well done Pete. 

[Frankie Crocker]

Great find Pete and a terrific story unfolding. Not an expert on this, but the Quality Control stamps on the sleeve, Test Press and demos appear identical. The hand written date and the OK appear to be penned by the same hand. The sleeve of the Test Press looks to be the ‘Birth Sleeve’ so the record could be in pristine condition. A date of 1965 surely places this recording in Detroit rather than Los Angeles - maybe someone can clarify. Now speculating that the master tape was sent to the Nashville Matrix pressing plant, probably in a batch with others from that day’s studio output. The mastertapes were processed one by one, and the Test Presses stacked up as the quality control workers did their job. Later on, the demos were cut (at this plant or another) and the Test Presses disposed of as per usual. One Frank Wilson Test Press was mixed up with other discards and tapes etc, swiftly removed from the premises and recently turned up outside Detroit. All the white demos bar two and any remaining Test Presses were destroyed in line with Berry Gordy’s wishes so this recent find is of considerable importance. The matrix details suggest the Test Press is genuine but more research needs to be done on the sequence of numbers to clarify the timing ie are there any other Test Presses in the hoard that turned up in the store? There are enough experts out there to prove the Test Press is genuine - I for one believe and hope it is.

[Bruv]

Loving the fact that one of the rarest record's is our Frank Wilson, ok it's been flogged to death as we all know, but there is no other song that comes near it to the pulling power over the years it's had to get people into Northern Soul, just my opinion mind.  

[Tomangoes]

Was lucky enough to meet Frank up close and personal, sing dilyiid along side him at the la2004 gig, and I too hope it's genuine because it is the most famous tune in the swons, even if it's not the greatest!

Ed

Edited November 20, 2017 by tomangoes
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