Possibly THE Rarest Soul 45?

[Mike]

On 1/17/2018 at 11:16, mike said:

ok rather than take this topic any further down the offtopic road ask please use the support/feedback forum for any further site related points/feedback/talk 

back to the actual topic ...

keywords being acetate, frank wilson, rarest soul 45 etc....

 

anyway here's a related blog post info post....

 

 

[Guest Denise Marie]

The Frank Wilson 45 has left my hands.  Watch my store's web site for exciting updates!  Facebook - Melodies & Memories.

 

[Raremusicdirect]

Thanks for the update....

 

[Guest Tobyonekenobi]

Fascinating, interesting, barmy NS tale, with all the usual intrigue and disagreements which have never changed over the NS years. For the record, (no pun intended) I think DILY has been done to death which is such a shame. But personally my ears still prick up every time I hear it which is the measure for me. Good to be back, even though I never really went away. Circumstances and all that! T.C.

[Guest Shufflin]

new vid from JM, historically very interesting (missus bought me a wooden framed copy for the wall for xmas - kid you not)

 

Edited February 26, 2018 by Shufflin

[Tomangoes]

Rarest and most expensive?

That’ll Be The Day by The Quarrymen

Value: £100,000 [€117,153/$123,167] (some say £200,000)

A 1958 single by a pre-Beatles line-up comprised of Paul McCartney, John Lennon and George Harrison, plus drummer Colin Hanton and pianist John Duff Lowe. No Ringo.

Original test pressing of course..

Ed

[Woodbutcher]

7 hours ago, tomangoes said:

Rarest and most expensive?

That’ll Be The Day by The Quarrymen

Value: £100,000 [€117,153/$123,167] (some say £200,000)

A 1958 single by a pre-Beatles line-up comprised of Paul McCartney, John Lennon and George Harrison, plus drummer Colin Hanton and pianist John Duff Lowe. No Ringo.

Original test pressing of course..

Ed

Not a rare soul record and it's an acetate not a test pressing ...

[Tomangoes]

Listen again my friend, John says the rarest and most expensive 45. No mention of rarest or most expensive soul 45.

Ed

[Mgm 1251]

Wasn’t the original a 10”,78 rpm acetate that Macca had made into a small number of 7” vinyl 45’s?....

[Tomangoes]

You are right, it is a 10" 78 rpm according to various sites. The record in John's video could well be the most expensive 45 normal issued record money has changed hands for.

 

A one-sided acetate of the Beatles 1963 single Love Me Do is worth £80,500 – as there’s only one known pressing, so they say on TEAMROCK.COM

Then again, worth value and sold value may be different.

Would this DILYIID be worth $35k or more upon sale with the writing on it today? or less?

What did this topic subject 'disc' actually sell for? Will it ever be known?

Ed

[Dylan]

Does he mention the name of the owner towards the end of the video ?

[Jim G]

JM Video is gone now, wonder why?

[Dylan]

24 minutes ago, jim g said:

JM Video is gone now, wonder why?

 

maybe for a small edit....

[Chatty]

Was the copy on the video  the copy Kenny Burrel owned?

If so I recal him saying on you tube somewhere that he played his copy out all the time when he had it, and no doubt he would have been asked to play it everytime he dj'd, yet JM described it as Mint minus?

[Paul Royle]

Hi, did a small edit to include the matrix details SK4M--4914-1-B

 

[Jim G]

19 minutes ago, chatty said:

Was the copy on the video  the copy Kenny Burrel owned?

 

yep that was the one. JM sold auctioned it a few years ago

[Liamgp]

40 minutes ago, chatty said:

Was the copy on the video  the copy Kenny Burrel owned?

If so I recal him saying on you tube somewhere that he played his copy out all the time when he had it, and no doubt he would have been asked to play it everytime he dj'd, yet JM described it as Mint minus?

I thought that too - I doubt it is really mint minus which I regard as only a few plays.  He forgot to mention WOL too! 

[Wheelsville1]

25 minutes ago, LiamGP said:

I thought that too - I doubt it is really mint minus which I regard as only a few plays.  He forgot to mention WOL too! 

This copy as far as I’m aware was stone mint when originally purchased from Martin k,personally I think it’s absolutely ridiculous to deface a record in that condition with all that writing.why didn’t he get Frank Wilson to autograph the record sleeve instead? 

[Guest]

I think Kenny mostly played one of the recent pressed copies to save damaging what is quite an expensive item. Wouldn`t anyone do the same?

[Stanley]

kenny did play a copy of the tune , but had the real deal with him most of the time..i know when frank signed the 45 it was a question we all asked where he should sign it. sleeve or record ....does it really matter ?

[Wheelsville1]

2 minutes ago, stanley said:

kenny did play a copy of the tune , but had the real deal with him most of the time..i know when frank signed the 45 it was a question we all asked where he should sign it. sleeve or record ....does it really matter ?

As I know George you have always liked your records to be in top notch condition as do I,to me this has defaced the record. 

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, Wheelsville1 said:

As I know George you have always liked your records to be in top notch condition as do I,to me this has defaced the record. 

Normally I would agree with that but this 45 is just so different it`s not going to affect it`s value at all. 

I personally wouldn`t have had it written on, god forbid! 

[Wheelsville1]

5 minutes ago, Steve Lane said:

Normally I would agree with that but this 45 is just so different it`s not going to affect it`s value at all. 

I personally wouldn`t have had it written on, god forbid! 

I remember a good few years ago when Martin k was over here,I went to see Otis Clay live along with Andy Dyson and Tim Brown.Martin at that time said he would never have a record label signed,it would always be the sleeve. 

[Tomangoes]

If the words 'Kenny, indeed I do' were not on the label, it may have little effect, but its bound to have limited the number of folks who would buy it, in my opinion.

Ed

[Liamgp]

1 hour ago, Steve Lane said:

I think Kenny mostly played one of the recent pressed copies to save damaging what is quite an expensive item. Wouldn`t anyone do the same?

No, he played it fairly regularly and at both major and minor venues too.

[Tomangoes]

Frank signed this bar folder for me in 2004 at the LA gig.

Can't see anybody but a 'Wendy' finding it valuable.....

Ed

[Soul16]

John Manships video is very nice, but do those weighing scales and vernier callipers have a valid calibration certificate?

If not, all that fannying about is pointless 

Edited February 27, 2018 by Soul16

[Liamgp]

7 hours ago, Soul16 said:

John Manships video is very nice, but do those weighing scales and vernier callipers have a valid calibration certificate?

If not, all that fannying about is pointless 

Yes, and what are the predetermined dimensions and weights that he's supposed to be measuring? I mean are there internationally agreed units for SOUL demos? 

[Dylan]

11 hours ago, Soul16 said:

John Manships video is very nice, but do those weighing scales and vernier callipers have a valid calibration certificate?

If not, all that fannying about is pointless 

A slip of the hand and he could have done some serious damage.

 

the sharp edge of the metal may have left a serious mark in the grooves.

 

i dont think those checks would be enough froma scientific perspective.  I know it's completely different but when they look at old paintings on fake or fortune the depths the testing goes to is incredible and takes away all doubt.

[Twoshoes]

18 hours ago, Soul16 said:

John Manships video is very nice, but do those weighing scales and vernier callipers have a valid calibration certificate?

If not, all that fannying about is pointless 

I thought it was pretty pointless too, I'm as far away from an expert on these matters as it is possible to be but sat here watching the snow fall outside the window I started thinking there must have been a reason for it somewhere in John's mind. Maybe on the wider issue of boots in general and the ever rising prices it might be a forthcoming  extension to his book giving the weights, label widths, run out groove etc of known legitimate issues of records as opposed to boots. As I say I don't know how record production works, do all records from one particular label weigh the same, do labels stretch or shrink during manufacture, if they do or don't it seems a pointless exercise. If he'd compared two records in the video I could understand it more . Just thinking , no conclusion.

[Jim G]

the only good thing about the video was too see that the FW 45 appears to still be in the UK. The rest was meh.. IMHO. 

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, jim g said:

the only good thing about the video was too see that the FW 45 appears to still be in the UK. The rest was meh.. IMHO. 

It never left, the guy who bought it is from Hull or out that way, bought it for his wife/partner who doesn't like Norther but liked that apparently.  I was told they have since split.

[Guest Shufflin]

250 demos were pressed, I do wonder how many were actually 'destroyed' in reality, were they thrown in a skip or someone take a hammer to 'em or what? any evidence they were destroyed or is it just anecdotal? were they left to rot in a warehouse somewhere?

[Chalky]

19 minutes ago, shufflin said:

250 demos were pressed, I do wonder how many were actually 'destroyed' in reality, were they thrown in a skip or someone take a hammer to 'em or what? any evidence they were destroyed or is it just anecdotal? were they left to rot in a warehouse somewhere?

There was 6 pressed, two for ARP archives, two for Motown, two for Jobette.  Dunno who started the 250 copies pressed rumour but it isn't true.

[Chatty]

On 28/02/2018 at 06:56, dylan said:

A slip of the hand and he could have done some serious damage.

 

the sharp edge of the metal may have left a serious mark in the grooves.

 

i dont think those checks would be enough froma scientific perspective.  I know it's completely different but when they look at old paintings on fake or fortune the depths the testing goes to is incredible and takes away all doubt.

He's not doubting that the copy is an original, he's taking dimensions from that one so if a counterfeit appears he could check materix numbers (distance between) weight, thickness etc and could then  confirm it as such.

[Guest Shufflin]

9 minutes ago, chalky said:

There was 6 pressed, two for ARP archives, two for Motown, two for Jobette.  Dunno who started the 250 copies pressed rumour but it isn't true.

the famously reliable wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_I_Love_You_(Indeed_I_Do)

[Dylan]

1 hour ago, chatty said:

He's not doubting that the copy is an original, he's taking dimensions from that one so if a counterfeit appears he could check materix numbers (distance between) weight, thickness etc and could then  confirm it as such.

Yes i know thats an original i'd have to have been on another planet to not know the story of that 45.

 

i'm saying all the factors that are being checked could be reproduced on a counterfeit.

 

it probably is the early steps to recording more useful data on rare original records and is a good thing but i dont think its definitive and needs to evolve.  But its a good start.

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, shufflin said:

the famously reliable wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_I_Love_You_(Indeed_I_Do)

must be reight then 

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, chatty said:

He's not doubting that the copy is an original, he's taking dimensions from that one so if a counterfeit appears he could check materix numbers (distance between) weight, thickness etc and could then  confirm it as such.

all those could be possibly replicated, down to the first detail.  You'd have to forensically examine the vinyl, paper and inks etc.

[Dylan]

3 minutes ago, chalky said:

all those could be possibly replicated, down to the first detail.  You'd have to forensically examine the vinyl, paper and inks etc.

Yes.

[Dylan]

The buyer mentions stafford all nighers in a conversation with john so i'm sure he will have some friends on here.

[Chatty]

2 hours ago, dylan said:

Yes i know thats an original i'd have to have been on another planet to not know the story of that 45.

 

i'm saying all the factors that are being checked could be reproduced on a counterfeit.

 

it probably is the early steps to recording more useful data on rare original records and is a good thing but i dont think its definitive and needs to evolve.  But its a good start.

All the factors being checked could be produced, but there's probably only three people who now have the ability to check those factors, JM and the owners of the two copies!

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by chatty
better grammar

[Dylan]

21 minutes ago, chatty said:

All the factors being checked could be produced, but there's probably only three people who now have the ability to check those factors, JM and the owners of the two copies!

 

Yes that is true.

 

and if anybody were to attempt to make a boot they would also need this info.

[Woodbutcher]

22 minutes ago, chatty said:

All the factors being checked could be produced, but there's probably only three people who now have the ability to check those factors, JM and the owners of the two copies!

 

Ergo there are now three people that have the required information required to produce a 'perfect' counterfeit ... 

[Guest Shufflin]

Zoe Ball played it on her radio 2 show this afternoon, heard while coming back from walking dog at the park, it's well and truly crossed over to the mainstream even my kids know it

[Tomangoes]

4 hours ago, chalky said:

There was 6 pressed, two for ARP archives, two for Motown, two for Jobette.  Dunno who started the 250 copies pressed rumour but it isn't true.

Would the 6 have all been identical?

I'm sure I read Berry ordered all copies to be destroyed?  But 3 slipped the net?

Was it normal for every motown record to initially have 6 demos made before it got the thumbs up or down for general release?

Ed

[Mgm 1251]

On 2/27/2018 at 07:23, tomangoes said:

Listen again my friend, John says the rarest and most expensive 45. No mention of rarest or most expensive soul 45.

Ed

I still think that the Darrell Banks “LONDON”issue would have gone a lot further(moneywise) if it wasn’t for the fact that Johns site crashed before the official deadline,and then there would have been the extensions....

[Chalky]

37 minutes ago, tomangoes said:

Would the 6 have all been identical?

I'm sure I read Berry ordered all copies to be destroyed?  But 3 slipped the net?

Was it normal for every motown record to initially have 6 demos made before it got the thumbs up or down for general release?

Ed

There is an interview with the/a manager of ARP who explained it all.  The 6 were demos, which if go ahead given more would have been done and then the issues to follow but we know the outcome there.

[Guest Shufflin]

this is where I get confused - test presses /QA copies are usually made in very small numbers (3-6?), but promos are (obviously) more in number? so here we have a QA/TP, and a video of a Promo...they are very different?

if you were going to do a vinyl production of promos, in those days for radio station promotional purposes, how many would you make?

6?

or did they make 6 copies with deliberately different labels?

if I'm being thick won't take offence being corrected, not as knowledgeable as you guys

[Tomangoes]

Were test presses for quality purposes, then demos for 'yes or no' to production purposes?

So about 6 test presses, and 6 demos in total, at the most, we're physically produced.

Berry said sing or write, Frank said write, Berry said bury the demos.

3 demos survived....but did the others really get destroyed?

A test press surfaced eventually that was a shock, so if the other 3 demos ( or even 1) surface it would be an even bigger shock

Ed