Silky Hargraves

[Soul-slider]

I have searched high, I have searched low but I cannot find any photo/pic of Silky Hargraves anywhere! Anyone able to supply?

Edited August 31, 2017 by Soul-Slider

[Guest]

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=silky+hargraves&client=tablet-android-lenovo&hl=en-GB&source=android-browser-suggest&prmd=isvn&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&fir=yTXBk6hZE1qypM%3A%2Cmjs2RSf6gVwL2M%2C_%3BTIuqIB0zm0Fh2M%3A%2CDCnXPTPVWbSwdM%2C_%3BXDGw33I7mzAE5M%3A%2Czg5hNU8By7oqgM%2C_%3BkzpVNYs2YDgsAM%3A%2Cmjs2RSf6gVwL2M%2C_%3B9y_RdObrgABBsM%3A%2Cmjs2RSf6gVwL2M%2C_%3Bs3jwKm40c7Nf1M%3A%2CyIYylmu-QtjSdM%2C_%3BHhVuVgdb2bqvoM%3A%2CHy36K8J2-RffZM%2C_%3BFMf-4bVWTKgS2M%3A%2CLMWn42ajkCl8rM%2C_%3BACKnnyL6BNiAnM%3A%2CKhV5LUxTrI6y5M%2C_%3BYUZmTfMKw202bM%3A%2C3Nxq11J4YxeGZM%2C_&usg=__-AAGgGeCM_ryInOhElpOAMykQMw%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiAweLxqILWAhVsK8AKHQwCDboQsAQIaw&biw=601&bih=914

[Guest]

Not sure if this is Silky but somebody must think do.

[David Meikle]

Graham Finch provided this image for his webisode "the Mike Hanks Story" on soulfuldetroit.com

I have also seen a colour image of the very handsome and very talented singer. 

Edited August 31, 2017 by David Meikle
Added text

[Soul-slider]

44 minutes ago, David Meikle said:

Graham Finch provided this image for his webisode "the Mike Hanks Story" on soulfuldetroit.com

I have also seen a colour image of the very handsome and very talented singer. 

I thought that was Lee Rogers?

[Guest]

My post has the photo and lots of his labels...somebody thinks it's him.

[Soul-slider]

28 minutes ago, snakepit said:

My post has the photo and lots of his labels...somebody thinks it's him.

Yes, I think it must be him now snakepit, I googled Lee Rogers and he's a different fella to that picture. So, mystery solved, the picture is Silky. Thanks guys.

[Chalky]

I asked elsewhere the other day and got three photos I think. Will find them over the weekend. 

[Tlscapital]

I don't get it, most testimony I read a while ago from that Detroit gang talked about a white guy and he certainly sounds like one. No pictures popped-up to this day as far as I know. And I'd love to see one since I own and love all his records from his long discography... 

[David Meikle]

2 minutes ago, tlscapital said:

I don't get it, most testimony I read a while ago from that Detroit gang talked about a white guy and he certainly sounds like one. No pictures popped-up to this day as far as I know. And I'd love to see one since I own and love all his records from his long discography... 

Betty Lavette showed me a photograph of Silky as she knew him very well.

Please be assured he was African American.

[Chalky]

Silky on the right with Rufus Thomas on the left.

[Chalky]

[Tlscapital]

10 minutes ago, chalky said:

Silky on the right with Rufus Thomas on the left.

On the right of Rufus is a record producer and businessman as record shop chain owner called Isaac Kari !

[Chalky]

The photo came from Andy Spencer.  He looks very much like the one in the advert.

[Tlscapital]

17 minutes ago, chalky said:

Now that is an advert !!! May the drawing be a portrait or a flattered figure...

 

 

[Tlscapital]

4 minutes ago, chalky said:

The photo came from Andy Spencer.  He looks very much like the one in the advert.

Sorry but there's no match and these are all pictures of Isaac Kari at different decades of it's life showing the resemblance far from the drawing anyway...

[Soul-slider]

35 minutes ago, tlscapital said:

I don't get it, most testimony I read a while ago from that Detroit gang talked about a white guy and he certainly sounds like one. No pictures popped-up to this day as far as I know. And I'd love to see one since I own and love all his records from his long discography... 

That's what made me ask.

[Chalky]

12 minutes ago, tlscapital said:

Sorry but there's no match and these are all pictures of Isaac Kari at different decades of it's life showing the resemblance far from the drawing anyway...

If that is the case then the search continues

[Tlscapital]

8 minutes ago, Soul-Slider said:

That's what made me ask.

I did a lot of finally dreaded G**gl search a while ago and only found stories about the white guy hanging with his mates; JJ Barnes, Cody Black, Steve Mancha & Co. in the studios and never a picture was shown. Even when requested it was a point blank.

Even the first picture taken from the forum Soulful Detroit is no match for the drawing from the advert.

Edited September 1, 2017 by tlscapital

[Dylan]

He sounds white.

[Robbk]

43 minutes ago, dylan said:

He sounds white.

Not on "Lucky To Be Loved By You" - unreleased Thelma cut.  I always thought he was Black and saw pictures that said the person was him, and it was an Afro-American.  He didn't sound "White" to me, on D-Town and Wheelsville USA, or Dearborn, at least, from what I remember.

 

Edited September 1, 2017 by RobbK

[Robbk]

1 hour ago, tlscapital said:

Sorry but there's no match and these are all pictures of Isaac Kari at different decades of it's life showing the resemblance far from the drawing anyway...

Yes that's Sax Kari.  Hargreaves probably wasn't even alive when that earliest photo of Kari was taken.

[Tlscapital]

30 minutes ago, RobbK said:

Not on "Lucky To Be Loved By You" - unreleased Thelma cut.  I always thought he was Black and saw pictures that said the person was him, and it was an Afro-American.  He didn't sound "White" to me, on D-Town and Wheelsville USA, or Dearborn, at least, from what I remember.

 

To be honest Robb, I don't even recognize Silky's voice on this unreleased take of 'lucky to be loved by you'. I couldn't even guess to put a name on that voice. Where on his 6 released sides even though he changed of shirt, hat and socks his voice timber betrays him.

Both his D-Town 45 and Wheelsville sides are so "black" on everything about them, that it's only when you allow to question Silky's "pedigree" and re-listen to them another way, leaving room to the possibility that... Yeah... Maybe... Likely... Right !

Where for his Dearborn 45, it always made me believe that this guy there was white. Or could that be the "black" guy we knew from the D-Town and Wheelsville 45's wanted to go break bigger and reach the "pop" market to sound "white" ?

Goes without saying nothing wrong with it one way or the other. For me his 3 singles are of cult statues and I'd love to unveil some of the mysteries around the man like the OP 'Soul Slider'. We'd love to know it all but a little slice of that guy's who's and whereabouts would be a blessing already.

Edited September 1, 2017 by tlscapital

[Dylan]

7 hours ago, tlscapital said:

 

Goes without saying nothing wrong with it one way or the other. 

Yes i agree with this i wasnt trying to belittle the records in any way and i dont know one way or the other.  Just making an observation.

 

keep loving me is classic northern.

 

it would be nice to get to the bottom of things like this with some proper evidence.

[Tlscapital]

12 hours ago, David Meikle said:

Betty Lavette showed me a photograph of Silky as she knew him very well.

Please be assured he was African American.

Thanks for the input. But still it is no proof. Only on this thread one of the two showed pictures was ruled out. 

The first one with the 2 Wheelsville labels is still questionable as it's not established one way or the other as to who it is for sure.

The wonderful advert for the Dearborn 45 is a drawing not stating that Silky resemble the character. Many "fake" figures" are used to "embellish" a product...

The "somebody told me or showed me" is left to the memories that are what they are; only memories. And willingly or not just adding to the grapevine, rumors or urban legends.

Edited September 2, 2017 by tlscapital

[David Meikle]

I've suddenly got this image in my head of Betty grabbing you by the throat. 

Only joking!

[Steve S 60]

36 minutes ago, David Meikle said:

I've suddenly got this image in my head of Betty grabbing you by the throat. 

Only joking!

........while you sing "Let Me Down Easy".

[maslar]

14 hours ago, tlscapital said:

I did a lot of finally dreaded G**gl search a while ago and only found stories about the white guy hanging with his mates; JJ Barnes, Cody Black, Steve Mancha & Co. in the studios and never a picture was shown. Even when requested it was a point blank.

Even the first picture taken from the forum Soulful Detroit is no match for the drawing from the advert.

Looks like a very good match to me?

[Tlscapital]

43 minutes ago, maslar said:

Looks like a very good match to me?

Close to but no match to me. That is why the drawing is not conclusive. Plus this drawing is made from a picture. So if the same guy as from the picture, either the drawer intentionally "twist" the picture or he wasn't a good portraitist. The similarities maybe there (haircut, wide front head, linear eyebrows, medium large nose and lips) but the "person" is not in my eyes. If shown wrong, I'll be more than happy to finally have seen Silky, the black dude and admit to my misjudgment !

Edited September 2, 2017 by tlscapital

[maslar]

16 minutes ago, tlscapital said:

Close to but no match to me. That is why the drawing is not conclusive. Plus this drawing is made from a picture. So if the same guy as from the picture either the drawer intentionally "twist" the picture or he wasn't a good portraitist. The similarities maybe there (haircut, wide front head, linear eyebrows, medium large nose and lips) but the "person" is not in my eyes. If shown wrong, I'll be more than happy to finally have seen Silky, the black dude and admit to my misjudgment !

I think you're looking too  hard . People tend to look slightly different in different photos. I'd say the drawing  was an excellent ressemblance of the person in the soulful detroit pic. 

Also it's taken me just a short time to find a brief bio from a press cutting posted on Soulful detroit by Graham Finch which states that "Sylki"  Hargrave performed in a "gospel quartet" (doo wop?). He performed at Lee's Club Senstation which featured black artists (situated  in Paradise Valley I think).  and there's a reference to his friendship with Betty Lavett(e).

 

[Robbk]

9 hours ago, maslar said:

I think you're looking too  hard . People tend to look slightly different in different photos. I'd say the drawing  was an excellent resemblance of the person in the soulful detroit pic. 

Also it's taken me just a short time to find a brief bio from a press cutting posted on Soulful detroit by Graham Finch which states that "Sylki"  Hargrave performed in a "gospel quartet" (doo wop?). He performed at Lee's Club Senstation which featured black artists (situated  in Paradise Valley I think).  and there's a reference to his friendship with Betty Lavett(e).

 

Silky Hargreaves was a Black man.  I saw a few photos of him years ago.  I can't remember the source.  Furthermore, I am an artist, and understand how difficult it is to make everything in a photo look the same in a drawing.  To me, that advert drawing is an excellent portrayal of the man in the photo, and I have no doubt that they are one in the same person.

[Tlscapital]

15 hours ago, RobbK said:

Silky Hargreaves was a Black man.  I saw a few photos of him years ago.  I can't remember the source.  Furthermore, I am an artist, and understand how difficult it is to make everything in a photo look the same in a drawing.  To me, that advert drawing is an excellent portrayal of the man in the photo, and I have no doubt that they are one in the same person.

OK, I'll take the inclination to "believe", YES you heard me "I AM A BELIEVER" for the moment at least, that Silky is black. If ever someone could come across another picture of Silky please report on here. We will be forever worthy of 

On the portrait side of things, I drew too. I know what it is to make people's portrait. Being a good drawer is not all. It also requires humility, as not to see ourselves in those we love and portrait them as we perceive ourselves or, if not love, to turn it into a caricature of something else that still belongs to the pencil holder somehow.

[Robbk]

2 hours ago, tlscapital said:

OK, I'll take the inclination to "believe", YES you heard me "I AM A BELIEVER" for the moment at least, that Silky is black. If ever someone could come across another picture of Silky please report on here. We will be forever worthy of 

On the portrait side of things, I drew too. I know what it is to make people's portrait. Being a good drawer is not all. It also requires humility, as not to see ourselves in those we love and portrait them as we perceive ourselves or, if not love, to turn it into a caricature of something else that still belongs to the pencil holder somehow.

Klopt!  I agree 100 % with that statement.  But, I still think that the advert drawing is the man in the photo.

[Pete S]

On 02/09/2017 at 12:17, maslar said:

Looks like a very good match to me?

Me too, look at the mouth

[David Meikle]

Silky's father was Bluesman Richard 'Nickel' Hargrave.

Silky was also a cousin of Mike Hanks.

Detail from Keith Rylatt's book Groovesville.

End of......

[Mike]

1 minute ago, David Meikle said:

Silky's father was Bluesman Richard 'Nickel' Hargrave.

Silky was also a cousin of Mike Hanks.

Detail from Keith Rylatt's book Groovesville.

End of......

info dig shows that copyright records points at at his real name being  James Hargraves Jr ?

KEEP LOVIN ME LIKE YOU DO w Love m Silky Hargraves James Hargraves Jr 2 p 21Aug67 EU11053 

[jukeboxgeorge]

Not certain that Silky's father was Bluesman Richard 'Nickel' Hargrave based on the Copyright filing as James Hargraves Jr. 

The first photo at the top is Silky.  Here it is from The Michigan Chronicle 28 December 1968.

[jukeboxgeorge]

Here is a photo from the same paper 22 February 1964 including Silky, Ster-phonics (Sterophonics), Dwight Turner (Spyder Turner), Little Michael Stokes

 

Edited January 22 by jukeboxgeorge

[imnokid]

Just came across this thread. I'm Kevin Kiley, Bettye's husband. I can tell you for certain, that Silky was a black man. She has a hand colored photo of him in his army uniform.

[imnokid]

He died Feb 8 1972 in Cincinati, OH. His father was James Hargrave Sr. The photo he gave to Bettye is signed, and he signed it Sylki.

I had not seen the photo in years. It is not hand tinted. And he was in the Air Force, not the Army.

[jukeboxgeorge]

Thanks for the info, Kevin.  Here's a story that Bettye might remember, printed in Michigan Chronicle 16 May 1964 page B1, about the 12th Annual Spring Dance at the Latin Quarter, organized by a group of Detroit business and professional men known as The King's Men.  The entertainment included comedian Tina Dixon; James Hargrove (sic) & Lafayette Vaughn as "Silk and Satin;" dancers; and, by audience demand, Betty Lavette.  See uploaded newspaper clip.  (Perhaps the song referenced was Mr. Two-Gun Pete by Jack Cooley from 1950.  There is no other info about Lafayette Vaughn, so maybe this name was not spelled correctly.)

Ancestry.com records confirm the 1972 death date; no cause stated.  Military records show his birth date on 8 September 1940.  He served in the Air Force from 15 August 1960 to 13 September 1963.  His mother, Mamie Woods of Cincinnati, signed the 1972 request for the Veteran's cemetery headstone.  Curiously, in the 1942 Cincinnati City Directory, James E Hargrave & wife Mamie Hargrave were living at 804 West 9th St.  The 1949 & 1952 City Directories have James Hargrove (sic) at this address.  The 1950 Census (family name spelled Horgrove by the Census-taker) shows that he was an only child.  In the City Directories starting in 1953 until at least 1959, James Woods & Mamie Woods were living at the same address, 804 West 9th St.  It's difficult to understand why there was a change in the family name.

There was a 1961 Copyright for "Teardrops" filed by James Hargrave, Jr.  In doing research there are many songs with Copyright filings that were never recorded, and since lead sheets are available at the Library of Congress / Copyright Office, I hope that a singer and producer will search for these, find some that look interesting, and record them.  (There was also a 1959 Copyright filed by James Hargrove II, presumably not Silky, but the filing would need to be reviewed.)

My first post in January, with a 1968 newspaper story and photo that mentioned "Cold World" as Silky's latest recording and a big hit, was the final mention of Silky in Michigan Chronicle.  This and another song, "The Tables Turned On You" - both co-written by the mysterious Tina Love - had Copyright filings toward the end of 1967, when Copyrights were filed for the two songs on Silky's Dearborn 45.  Anyone know more about these tracks?

 

 

[The Yank]

4 hours ago, jukeboxgeorge said:

 

My first post in January, with a 1968 newspaper story and photo that mentioned "Cold World" as Silky's latest recording and a big hit, was the final mention of Silky in Michigan Chronicle.  This and another song, "The Tables Turned On You" - both co-written by the mysterious Tina Love - had Copyright filings toward the end of 1967, when Copyrights were filed for the two songs on Silky's Dearborn 45.  Anyone know more about these tracks?

 

 

    Those two tracks may have been slated for the Silky Hargraves album mentioned at the end of this Record World article (October 4,1967). 

 

 

[Blackpoolsoul]

11 hours ago, jukeboxgeorge said:

Thanks for the info, Kevin.  Here's a story that Bettye might remember, printed in Michigan Chronicle 16 May 1964 page B1, about the 12th Annual Spring Dance at the Latin Quarter, organized by a group of Detroit business and professional men known as The King's Men.  The entertainment included comedian Tina Dixon; James Hargrove (sic) & Lafayette Vaughn as "Silk and Satin;" dancers; and, by audience demand, Betty Lavette.  See uploaded newspaper clip.  (Perhaps the song referenced was Mr. Two-Gun Pete by Jack Cooley from 1950.  There is no other info about Lafayette Vaughn, so maybe this name was not spelled correctly.)

Ancestry.com records confirm the 1972 death date; no cause stated.  Military records show his birth date on 8 September 1940.  He served in the Air Force from 15 August 1960 to 13 September 1963.  His mother, Mamie Woods of Cincinnati, signed the 1972 request for the Veteran's cemetery headstone.  Curiously, in the 1942 Cincinnati City Directory, James E Hargrave & wife Mamie Hargrave were living at 804 West 9th St.  The 1949 & 1952 City Directories have James Hargrove (sic) at this address.  The 1950 Census (family name spelled Horgrove by the Census-taker) shows that he was an only child.  In the City Directories starting in 1953 until at least 1959, James Woods & Mamie Woods were living at the same address, 804 West 9th St.  It's difficult to understand why there was a change in the family name.

There was a 1961 Copyright for "Teardrops" filed by James Hargrave, Jr.  In doing research there are many songs with Copyright filings that were never recorded, and since lead sheets are available at the Library of Congress / Copyright Office, I hope that a singer and producer will search for these, find some that look interesting, and record them.  (There was also a 1959 Copyright filed by James Hargrove II, presumably not Silky, but the filing would need to be reviewed.)

My first post in January, with a 1968 newspaper story and photo that mentioned "Cold World" as Silky's latest recording and a big hit, was the final mention of Silky in Michigan Chronicle.  This and another song, "The Tables Turned On You" - both co-written by the mysterious Tina Love - had Copyright filings toward the end of 1967, when Copyrights were filed for the two songs on Silky's Dearborn 45.  Anyone know more about these tracks?

 

 

There's a great piccy of him on the Tuff City LP from 2021 

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, Blackpoolsoul said:

There's a great piccy of him on the Tuff City LP from 2021 

here he is without the background

[David Meikle]

Para 3 of image uploaded by The Yank. Enormous talent. No wonder our scene loves the Detroit sound.

16 hours ago, The Yank said:

    Those two tracks may have been slated for the Silky Hargraves album mentioned at the end of this Record World article (October 4,1967). 

 

 

 

Edited April 2 by David Meikle

[Blackpoolsoul]

Speaking to Elsie last night and was asking her about Silky and was shocked, but not surprised, that the Debonaires did the backing vocals for "Keep Loving Me (Like You Do)". Another one ticked of the list