Chris Jackson 'Forever I’ll Stay With You' Soul City

[Ady Croasdell]

At some point I got told this was actually Jerry Williams and not Chris Jackson. Anyone know where that info came from? It certainly sounds a bit like Jerry and nothing like Chris but it's also reported as a UK recording which is possible.

[givemesoul]

sounds nothing like jerry williams it was well documented that chris jackson came over to do this for dave godin

[Sunnysoul]

1 hour ago, givemesoul said:

sounds nothing like jerry williams it was well documented that chris jackson came over to do this for dave godin

Beg to differ, it sounds very much like Jerry Williams and nothing like Chris (Marke) Jackson who sang in a very distinctive Eddie Kendricks - like falsetto.

It is well known Jackson had a falling out with Dave Godin at the time.

For what it's worth, there's only one (unsupported) comment on a youtube clip of the track  but at least it's unequivocal : Ethan Howarth 1 year ago  "This side is actually Jerry (Swamp Dogg) Williams."  

Also of some interest is Tim Brown's recollection of a discussion he had with Dave Godin:  https://timbrowntalks.blogspot.com.au/2012/01/

Right On!

Manifesto December, 2011

As we enter the final month of a year which on a global scale has seen financial turmoil, I’m bound to report that record sales seem busier than for some time, perhaps it’s like the world of football where money bears little relation to the world outside and what stays within goes around and around.  Whatever the truth your money seems safe in vinyl…

A couple of minor points from previous ‘Tim Brown Talks’ cleared up by friends.  Neil Rushton informs me that Canada’s stranger-than-strange Right On! Label was a Bill Downs project (ex–manager of the Ad Libs and Jellybeans amongst others) with the approval of Dave Godin (who denied all knowledge of it to me).  It still seems a strange set of releases – rich in irony, tainted with plagiarism, almost mocking the Soul Beatnik in fact.  In October’s Manifesto I mentioned the demise of the Coaster’s Carl Gardner and speculated that he might be the ‘Crazy Baby’ singer.  I should have taken a look at the single which is in fact almost totally a Billy Guy effort.  He wrote and produced the record as well as singing it – without the other Coasters!  Thanks to Beatin Rhythm’s Derek Howe for pointing that one out.

Staying with October’s Manifesto and Simon White speculates on that odd Chris Jackson Soul City release of ‘I’ll Never Forget You’ with its different flipside to the US Jamie release.  Godin told me that Chris and Marke Jackson were different artists, a circumstance supported by ‘Forever I’ll Stay With You’ on the UK issue, but of course ‘I’ll Never Forget You’ is identical.  Clearly Godin got around any licensing difficulty by claiming ‘Forget’ to be a re-recording, not wishing to over-egg the situation a different flipside lent a little credibility and they used a different vocalist for it.  I think we can safely say that Marke Jackson and Chris Jackson (possibly Chris Bartley too) were the same person (excepting that Soul City flipside).  Keep the faith, right on now. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by sunnysoul

[Ady Croasdell]

4 hours ago, givemesoul said:

sounds nothing like jerry williams it was well documented that chris jackson came over to do this for dave godin

Yes but listen to it and it's a totally different voice that sounds a lot but not totally like Jerry. Dave and Jerry were very close but if it was recorded in the U.K. Was he visiting in 1968?

[Ady Croasdell]

Thanks Sunnysoul, I agree about Chris and Marke being the same, but not Chris Bartley, David Nathan knew Chris Jackson as did Dave of course 

[Chalky]

6 hours ago, sunnysoul said:

Beg to differ, it sounds very much like Jerry Williams and nothing like Chris (Marke) Jackson who sang in a very distinctive Eddie Kendricks - like falsetto.

It is well known Jackson had a falling out with Dave Godin at the time.

For what it's worth, there's only one (unsupported) comment on a youtube clip of the track  but at least it's unequivocal : Ethan Howarth 1 year ago  "This side is actually Jerry (Swamp Dogg) Williams."  

Also of some interest is Tim Brown's recollection of a discussion he had with Dave Godin:  https://timbrowntalks.blogspot.com.au/2012/01/

Right On!

Manifesto December, 2011

As we enter the final month of a year which on a global scale has seen financial turmoil, I’m bound to report that record sales seem busier than for some time, perhaps it’s like the world of football where money bears little relation to the world outside and what stays within goes around and around.  Whatever the truth your money seems safe in vinyl…

A couple of minor points from previous ‘Tim Brown Talks’ cleared up by friends.  Neil Rushton informs me that Canada’s stranger-than-strange Right On! Label was a Bill Downs project (ex–manager of the Ad Libs and Jellybeans amongst others) with the approval of Dave Godin (who denied all knowledge of it to me).  It still seems a strange set of releases – rich in irony, tainted with plagiarism, almost mocking the Soul Beatnik in fact.  In October’s Manifesto I mentioned the demise of the Coaster’s Carl Gardner and speculated that he might be the ‘Crazy Baby’ singer.  I should have taken a look at the single which is in fact almost totally a Billy Guy effort.  He wrote and produced the record as well as singing it – without the other Coasters!  Thanks to Beatin Rhythm’s Derek Howe for pointing that one out.

Staying with October’s Manifesto and Simon White speculates on that odd Chris Jackson Soul City release of ‘I’ll Never Forget You’ with its different flipside to the US Jamie release.  Godin told me that Chris and Marke Jackson were different artists, a circumstance supported by ‘Forever I’ll Stay With You’ on the UK issue, but of course ‘I’ll Never Forget You’ is identical.  Clearly Godin got around any licensing difficulty by claiming ‘Forget’ to be a re-recording, not wishing to over-egg the situation a different flipside lent a little credibility and they used a different vocalist for it.  I think we can safely say that Marke Jackson and Chris Jackson (possibly Chris Bartley too) were the same person (excepting that Soul City flipside).  Keep the faith, right on now. 

I'm not sure about the youtube comment being unequivocal? If it was there would be supporting evidence leaving us in no doubt it was Jerry Williams yet there is nothing? I agree no one has countered the claim but that doesn't mean he is right?

has anyone asked Jerry Williams?

[maslar]

5 hours ago, ady croasdell said:

Yes but listen to it and it's a totally different voice that sounds a lot but not totally like Jerry. Dave and Jerry were very close but if it was recorded in the U.K. Was he visiting in 1968?

I'd say it sounds a lot like Jerry Williams and could very well be him. The problem when trying to compare to other tracks, eg If You Ask Me, is that they may sung  in a different key or pitch or delivery so they're never going to sound identical. 

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by maslar
typo

[maslar]

Surely the Soul City Chris Jackson single is considered a little dodgy in general? - "A Commisioned recording made in the USA for Soul City ". What's that  supposed  to mean? It's obviously the Jamie track but no reference to Van McCoy at all,  who arranged and  produced the Jamie track.

[Roburt]

I'm sure there was a full article on Chris Jackson & his UK record in an early B&S (around B&S 17 I think  -- I have it somewhere up in the loft). I think it was put in the mag just after he visited the UK (a short while before Soul City shop & label went bust).

If my memory ain't playing tricks on me (& I am very old), then Soul City was sent a copy of the US version of Chris's tracks. Dave G wasn't 100% sold on them but was sufficiently interested to say he might release them if some changes were made. So, the tracks were rejigged, resubmitted to Soul City and licensed for release ... that's the reason for the  "A Commisioned recording made in the USA for Soul City " text on the label.

[maslar]

1 hour ago, Roburt said:

I'm sure there was a full article on Chris Jackson & his UK record in an early B&S (around B&S 17 I think  -- I have it somewhere up in the loft). I think it was put in the mag just after he visited the UK (a short while before Soul City shop & label went bust).

If my memory ain't playing tricks on me (& I am very old), then Soul City was sent a copy of the US version of Chris's tracks. Dave G wasn't 100% sold on them but was sufficiently interested to say he might release them if some changes were made. So, the tracks were rejigged, resubmitted to Soul City and licensed for release ... that's the reason for the  "A Commisioned recording made in the USA for Soul City " text on the label.

"Rejigged" by who exactly? I thought I'd heard it all. Are you sure you  haven't got this wrong? He couldn't have actually said that. It's the same recording - arranged and produced by Van McCoy.   And of course he rejigged  "Chris" to "Marke" (with an "e"). 

[Rick Cooper]

1 hour ago, Roburt said:

I'm sure there was a full article on Chris Jackson & his UK record in an early B&S (around B&S 17 I think  -- I have it somewhere up in the loft). I think it was put in the mag just after he visited the UK (a short while before Soul City shop & label went bust).

If my memory ain't playing tricks on me (& I am very old), then Soul City was sent a copy of the US version of Chris's tracks. Dave G wasn't 100% sold on them but was sufficiently interested to say he might release them if some changes were made. So, the tracks were rejigged, resubmitted to Soul City and licensed for release ... that's the reason for the  "A Commisioned recording made in the USA for Soul City " text on the label.

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/forums/topic/27908-total-eclipses-you-took-our-heart/?tab=comments#comment-1678468

John

Your memory isn't playing tricks.This topic from 2006 has the B&S article in it but no help with Ady's question. 

Rick

[maslar]

13 hours ago, Rick Cooper said:

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/forums/topic/27908-total-eclipses-you-took-our-heart/?tab=comments#comment-1678468

John

Your memory isn't playing tricks.This topic from 2006 has the B&S article in it but no help with Ady's question. 

Rick

That article is about the follow-up single which was never released - and which I believe  Dave Godin placed much of the blame for the collapse of the label. (I'm only going from memory so might need correction). Strange to place the blame for a whole label on  the release (or lack ) of one single but there you go. One thing is certain -Chris Jackson went from being flavour of the month to whipping boy in a very short period of time. 

Did Jackson ever appear live? If not why not? He was in the country for months based in London. Surely Soul City would have got him a few promo club gigs in that time?   

Why was he (at just 21) so keen to go into behind the scenes record production (for Gene Redd). something I'm not sure ever happened? If his voice and image were so great. He didn't really have that levelof experience did he?

With regard to the "B" side. If it was "Commissioned in the US" (i'm still trying to work that one out)  why wasn't the orignal flip side "Commissioned" at the same time? Would have made life a lot easier surely?

Edited August 9, 2017 by maslar
typo

[Ady Croasdell]

More questions than answers! Next stop Jerry. Thanks to all. Feel free to add any other info

[Triode]

Is Chris Jackson still about?

personally I agree the Van McCoy connection is the most likely.

[givemesoul]

Sorry for being an ass i saw chris jackson and just thought i'll never forget you and thought of nothing else so yes having owned this for the past 20yrs and listening to the flip again i agree its deffo jerry williams

[Ady Croasdell]

7 hours ago, givemesoul said:

Sorry for being an ass i saw chris jackson and just thought i'll never forget you and thought of nothing else so yes having owned this for the past 20yrs and listening to the flip again i agree its deffo jerry williams

We've all assumed stuff and been embarrassed down the line. Will check it out with Jerry

[Roburt]

I'm sure this whole issue is not some great conspiracy dreamed up back in 1969 by Dave Godin. 

Many times, costs dictated what took place, as independent producers, in conjunction with artists, tried to land record deals. I'd bet any double-dealing over these tracks (if in fact there was any) occured on the US side of the pond. 

For many years folk on the scene have loved Lorenzo Manley's "Swoop Down On You" ... yet the track doesn't feature Lorenzo at all. The A side of this 45 (which does feature Lorenzo) was licensed for release by Original Sound but the cash on offer wasn't sufficient to fund a B side. So an old demo cut by Gene Dozier himself was used as the 'throw away' B side. At the time, Ugene was still using the false name had taken on to land earlier work in Detroit; Billy Jackson.

In fact, Gene had started to write the song back in Philly (even before he relocated to Detroit & then LA), though it wasn't finished when he'd moved to Detroit. So his version (written by Jackson - Santifer), when completed, differs somewhat from the original Philly version of the song, which of course became  Eddie Carlton's "It Will Be Done" (written by Norman Johnson !!). 

Don't forget, there were few businesses that were as cut-throat as the recording biz back in the 60's (the soul music end of things in particular). 

[maslar]

49 minutes ago, Roburt said:

I'm sure this whole issue is not some great conspiracy dreamed up back in 1969 by Dave Godin. 

Many times, costs dictated what took place, as independent producers, in conjunction with artists, tried to land record deals. I'd bet any double-dealing over these tracks (if in fact there was any) occured on the US side of the pond. 

For many years folk on the scene have loved Lorenzo Manley's "Swoop Down On You" ... yet the track doesn't feature Lorenzo at all. The A side of this 45 (which does feature Lorenzo) was licensed for release by Original Sound but the cash on offer wasn't sufficient to fund a B side. So an old demo cut by Gene Dozier himself was used as the 'throw away' B side. At the time, Ugene was still using the false name had taken on to land earlier work in Detroit; Billy Jackson.

In fact, Gene had started to write the song back in Philly (even before he relocated to Detroit & then LA), though it wasn't finished when he'd moved to Detroit. So his version (written by Jackson - Santifer), when completed, differs somewhat from the original Philly version of the song, which of course became  Eddie Carlton's "It Will Be Done" (written by Norman Johnson !!). 

Don't forget, there were few businesses that were as cut-throat as the recording biz back in the 60's (the soul music end of things in particular). 

If i was a betting man i'd wager it was on this side of the pond, even though I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "double-dealing". can I have some more detail please? The records were manufactured and released in the UK.  I've since read Dave Nathan's interview on Soul City (Britisgrecordshoparchive). Interestingly when talking about the releases he goes through the licencing deals. Except when talking about Chris Jackson - then it's simply about connections through his manger.  And of course all the other releases make reference to these licensing deals with the original recording label stated on the label - all except the CJ release with its bizarre "commissioned" status. 

 

 

[Tobytyke]

just played mine and it does sound very much like Jerry Williams. Ive had this record for over 40 years and never noticed before! Thanks for the info.

[Chalky]

Managed to find time to get the laptop out and have a listen to both sides.  The sound like different singers on each side to my ears and yes the side in question does sound somewhat like Jerry Williams.  Hopefully Jerry can add something positive to the debate once Ady has spoken to him.

[Roburt]

Maslar, if you don't know what 'double dealing' means when used to describe the record biz in the 60's, then you don't know much.

I've read that piece by David Nathan and though he has the person's name wrong, I don't doubt the facts he states regarding the Chris Jackson sides coming to Soul City via Bill Downes are 100% correct. Bill represented the likes of Chris Bartley, the Ad Libs (& most probably Chris Jackson) at that time. Bill really liked DG and they were still working closely through to the mid 70's (Dave's 444 & Right On label period  -- Sam Nesbit, Chris Bartley, Puzzles). If Dave had done anything untoward with regard to the Chris Jackson deal, I'm sure Bill Downes wouldn't have retained his close links with Dave down the years ... see attached clip that states DG was actually BD's official UK rep in 1970. This was around the same time that the 2nd Chris Jackson Soul City 45 was due for release.

At that time, Soul City had severe financial problems (these resulting in the bankruptcy of the label / shop). I'd guess any sour grapes from Chris Jackson stems from the lack of ability for Dave or Soul City to supply him with funds back then.

BTW, Bill was still in contact & dealing with DG even after the Right On period. I myself was slightly involved with Bill in the mid 80's when Move Records did a deal for some Chris Bartley releases here. Pity I didn't get the chance to talk with Bill about his dealings with DG ... but if I had, no doubt Bill would have sung DG's praises.

[Ady Croasdell]

There's a lot more to it than that though John and though I wouldn't call it double-dealing it's certainly convoluted and atypical.

[maslar]

1 hour ago, Roburt said:

Maslar, if you don't know what 'double dealing' means when used to describe the record biz in the 60's, then you don't know much.

I've read that piece by David Nathan and though he has the person's name wrong, I don't doubt the facts he states regarding the Chris Jackson sides coming to Soul City via Bill Downes are 100% correct. Bill represented the likes of Chris Bartley, the Ad Libs (& most probably Chris Jackson) at that time. Bill really liked DG and they were still working closely through to the mid 70's (Dave's 444 & Right On label period  -- Sam Nesbit, Chris Bartley, Puzzles). If Dave had done anything untoward with regard to the Chris Jackson deal, I'm sure Bill Downes wouldn't have retained his close links with Dave down the years ... see attached clip that states DG was actually BD's official UK rep in 1970. This was around the same time that the 2nd Chris Jackson Soul City 45 was due for release.

At that time, Soul City had severe financial problems (these resulting in the bankruptcy of the label / shop). I'd guess any sour grapes from Chris Jackson stems from the lack of ability for Dave or Soul City to supply him with funds back then.

BTW, Bill was still in contact & dealing with DG even after the Right On period. I myself was slightly involved with Bill in the mid 80's when Move Records did a deal for some Chris Bartley releases here. Pity I didn't get the chance to talk with Bill about his dealings with DG ... but if I had, no doubt Bill would have sung DG's praises.

BTw I'm not necesarily aiming my comments about Soul City at Dave Godin .. there were  others involved in the label. I'm also not being being judgemental. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do etc etc.

I have the second Jamie release (which I believe was 100% above board?) and to me this would seem to be more "official" than  the Soul City release?  

Just to encapsulate: Soul City release as an "A side a fairly obscure "B" side from America. They change the name of the artist. Then they put a track on the "B" side which may not be the artist on the "A" side?   I'm guessing the tracks were cut in the UK from imported vinyl copies or acetates? Like I believe some of the Tamla ones were (legally of course) and in doing so improved the sound quality (via British craftsmenship).  But if that is the case then it hardly warrants changing the production credits.

As for D Nathan getting the  name wrong - why would he do that? Maybe that's where the truth lies?

[dthedrug]

Hi All...For some reason Ady I think you are holding back on some info relating to your question,  as 38 years have gone since the SOUL CITY release, as you worked as a barrow boy for CHEAPO! CHEAPO!, & had the chance to ask Dave g many questions about every SOUL CITY release, why do I think this? back in 1971 I got many soul 45s from CONTEMPOS, PLUS in the past I have owned a 45 unreleased Acetate which I got from Martin (soul Sam) adding to this I have very few people in my life that I call Mentors that verge as SAGE like Mick Smith Pete Wid & yourself that's  half of them, I just get a uncanny feeling that you already know the answer? in some ways I hope that I'm wrong, as always "keep on keeping on"DAVE K.

[Ady Croasdell]

4 hours ago, dthedrug said:

Hi All...For some reason Ady I think you are holding back on some info relating to your question,  as 38 years have gone since the SOUL CITY release, as you worked as a barrow boy for CHEAPO! CHEAPO!, & had the chance to ask Dave g many questions about every SOUL CITY release, why do I think this? back in 1971 I got many soul 45s from CONTEMPOS, PLUS in the past I have owned a 45 unreleased Acetate which I got from Martin (soul Sam) adding to this I have very few people in my life that I call Mentors that verge as SAGE like Mick Smith Pete Wid & yourself that's  half of them, I just get a uncanny feeling that you already know the answer? in some ways I hope that I'm wrong, as always "keep on keeping on"DAVE K.

Nope, I didn't know Dave then

[Roburt]

5 hours ago, maslar said:

As for D Nathan getting the  name wrong - why would he do that? Maybe that's where the truth lies?

Maslar, so D Nathan didn't get the name wrong and it was actually Bill Barnes & not Bill Downs. Then, it must have been an entirely different New York Bill who was working with Dave G in 1969 (& who was the Ad Libs manager & an associate of Van McCoys) from the guy in 1970 who worked with Dave & was the Ad Libs manager + an associate of Van McCoys. It was definitely Bill Downs who worked with Dave on the 444 label and their Right On label project in the mid 70's (& who was the Ad Libs manager) .....

Unless of course, Pye Records also got the name wrong on their Right On press release ...  

[maslar]

1 hour ago, Roburt said:

Maslar, so D Nathan didn't get the name wrong and it was actually Bill Barnes & not Bill Downs. Then, it must have been an entirely different New York Bill who was working with Dave G in 1969 (& who was the Ad Libs manager & an associate of Van McCoys) from the guy in 1970 who worked with Dave & was the Ad Libs manager + an associate of Van McCoys. It was definitely Bill Downs who worked with Dave on the 444 label and their Right On label project in the mid 70's (& who was the Ad Libs manager) .....

Unless of course, Pye Records also got the name wrong on their Right On press release ...  

Ok so it was Bill Downe and whoever transcribed the interview made a mistake. But what does that change? Absolutely nothing.  But in the meantime  some more questions:

Did Van McCoy know of the Soul City release? Did Jamie records?

Did Chris/Marke Jackson actually sing on the Jamie release? I'm not saying  he didn't but is it a definite?

Why the narrative to paint Jackson as the bad guy? Maybe he acted in good faith and was genuinely f***** about? Seeing as how the whole operation seems a little amateurish.

Edited August 11, 2017 by maslar
typo

[maslar]

Was it something I said?

The whole Soul City saga would actually make a very interesting book. Set against the backdrop of the late 60s soul scene or even witihn the context of the London underground scene. Howver it would also require a certain level of objectivity. Anyone for objectivity?

[Ady Croasdell]

On 8/11/2017 at 19:07, maslar said:

Ok so it was Bill Downe and whoever transcribed the interview made a mistake. But what does that change? Absolutely nothing.  But in the meantime  some more questions:

Did Van McCoy know of the Soul City release? Did Jamie records?

Did Chris/Marke Jackson actually sing on the Jamie release? I'm not saying  he didn't but is it a definite?

Why the narrative to paint Jackson as the bad guy? Maybe he acted in good faith and was genuinely f***** about? Seeing as how the whole operation seems a little amateurish.

Too many questions until we can speak to those involved which may well happen. 

Jamie had the Marke Jackson tracks down as written by C Jackson so no subterfuge there really.

[Roburt]

His BMI entry ........... 

 

[Chris L]

On 8/7/2017 at 12:53, ady croasdell said:

At some point I got told this was actually Jerry Williams and not Chris Jackson. Anyone know where that info came from? It certainly sounds a bit like Jerry and nothing like Chris but it's also reported as a UK recording which is possible.

Wouldn't be hard to find that out, Jerry is still about you could ask him. I think I have an old email addy for him.

[Chris L]

On 8/9/2017 at 20:50, Triode said:

Is Chris Jackson still about?

personally I agree the Van McCoy connection is the most likely.

He was, I met some of Van McCoy estate people about 8/9 years, they told me he'd gone a bit off the rails and was well weird.