Hi all!

I'm a Northern Soul fan and a writer for The National Student. We're currently preparing our September print issue (normally we function as an online magazine) which will be distributed nationwide through university campuses. 

I'm writing a piece of the decline of important subcultures like Northern Soul and desperately need some insightful comments from real, long-time Northern Soul fans. If you remember the heyday of Wigan Casino etc. I'd love to hear from you. Below is a taster of the ideas behind the article and an invitation to voice your thoughts...

 

"Mass subcultures are no longer the formative part of young people’s identities that they often have been in the Britain of decades gone by.

Mods, rockers, football casuals, Northern Soul fanatics, punks and many more groups used to litter Britain’s social landscape. Those mass subcultures were immensely formative for young people who grew up and became part of them, but subcultures of the same scale, and with the same influence, don’t seem to exist in 2017.

What took their place? What equivalents have stepped in? Has their absence given young people more fluid identities? Does society miss those subcultures?" 

 

Please let me know what you think! Looking forward to hearing from you!

Best,

George 

The decline of important subcultures like Northern Soul? Tut, tut!

The closure of the Wigan Casino all those years ago might have seen a small decline in the number of people on the scene, but it was by no means terminal. Far from it. The NS scene continued and went from strength to strength to the degree that it's a global phenomenon and has been for some years. Do bear in mind that the Casino was but one club. It was not the be all and end all of Northern Soul in spite of what the mainstream media (and some attendees) believes.

As my profile image shows, I co-promote a little club called Northern Soul Amsterdam, which is indeed in Amsterdam. We are not alone in this fair city in running Northern Soul events. Amsterdam has had a scene for 10 years now, and it's still growing.

A quick scan of the Soul Source events listings will show that there are in fact more events in the UK specifically than there ever has been. Some people, and talk about being spoilt for choice, believe there are nowadays too many events. You can find the events section here:

https://www.soul-source.co.uk/calendar/

Having mentioned Amsterdam, you should be aware that mainland Europe is a hotbed of Northern Soul activity. I run a Facebook group called the European Soul Club Network, which exist to promote these events to interested punters who these days, instead of just merely travelling "up north" to somewhere like Wigan, travel across borders with simplistic ease in an age of cheap air travel. Indeed, dig a bit deeper online and you'll find events all over the world, and a quick look in your local physical record shop - or via your favourite online or digital source - will reveal that more Northern Soul music is available to the public than at anytime previously.

The decline of Northern Soul? No way. I suggest you consider dropping Northern Soul from this article as presenting it in terms of a declining subculture would be completely erroneous. Alternatively, approach Northern Soul specifically in terms of how, regardless of the decline of other subcultures, this one continues to thrive and went from regional phenomena to become a global movement.

Good luck with the piece.

 

Edited July 20, 20177 yr by Russell Gilbert
Spelin & clarity

Something you might also want to take into considering when thinking about the rumours of Northern Soul's decline is the fact that in recent years there's been a proliferation of TV adverts in which Northern Soul fans and soundtracks appear. Witness the Shredded Wheat ad from a couple of years back. Another one - for farm eggs - appeared on tellys across the nation some time after that. Leading fashion brands have also got in on the NOrthern Soul act with one well-known brand name "re-imaging Northern Soul" in a TV advert just recently. Barclaycard have one which, if it's not already showing, will be soon.

At the same time, Northern Soul and classic tunes associated with it have featured extensively in TV programmes. Witness an episode of Inspector George Gently that was set (rather badly) in a Northern Soul environment. A number of documentaries have been broadcast in recent years, one of which - "Living for the weekend" - was actually rather good (for a change).

In 2014, there was even a movie about Northern Soul (imaginatively titled "Northern Soul"). There was another movie prior - "Soul Boy".

While all this interest is in some ways flattering, it also highlights the fact that the scene has been strong enough to come back into vogue in the media's eye. The media think it's a nostalgic return for the scene when the real truth is that it never went away - it just went back underground after the Wigan Casino closed. This media interest in the nostalgic aspect represents but a mere tip of the iceberg for the scene itself. And like an iceberg, the greater part of the scene is very much below ground level and will remain so.

Hope this helps...

 

 

Hi Russel,

This is a great help, thank you for your comments! 

Would you be happy for me to use some of your reflections in the article? I will change angle slightly given what you've said but this is a great insight. 

Thanks again,

George

More comments etc. from you and others would still be very welcome and of help. 

What you said there made things a lot clearer, but I am still wondering about Northern Soul's effect on young people now, in 2017?

As a fan I'd love to be exposed to more Northern Soul music and events and, as you correctly pointed out, there are opportunities to be exposed to it in popular culture now. However, in the one or two Northern Soul gatherings I've witnessed, the crowds weren't made up of young people at all. When Northern Soul was mainstream it found a place in youth culture that helped shape young people's identities, do you still think it does that today? Or is the scene still thriving because of long-time fans? The latter was the impression I got but I would love to hear what you thought.

 

Thanks again! 

Of course I'd be happy for you to use anything I've said. Direct attribution would be nice, as would the correct spelling of my first name.  A copy of the article, once printed, would also be appreciated.

Relative to your second point - about the ages of those attending - yes, it is true that the majority are older. That's because, in the main, they're people who never quit the scene. Some might have dropped out for a while as they brought up the kids, etc, but ultimately it's a scene made up of dedicated people for whom Northern Soul really is a way of life.

However, there is young blood out there. In the UK (and bear in mind I'm a Brit expat in Amsterdam), I suspect it depends on the venues you go to. Members here from the UK will know where - I don't. As an example, check this out.

If you watch it on YouTube you'll see a link to the full film. 

While I can't really comment on the numbers of young people attending events in the UK, I can say with some confidence that it's pretty high over here, and across Europe. In some respects most of the younger attendees here (in the Netherlands, I mean) won't be Northern Soul devotees as such (ie, lifestylers), but they love the music for sure!

As said, members here in the UK will be able to give you a full picture of today's scene and how strong the influx of young blood is versus old timers.

Thanks Russell (sorry!). That is, again, very helpful. 

If you email your home address to G.Storr@live.co.uk I will see a copy is sent to you in September when we go to print! 

Also if you have good images of yourself or the Northern Soul club you co-promote they would potentially be very useful? 

Thanks again! 

  On 20/07/2017 at 14:11, GeorgeStorr said:

More comments etc. from you and others would still be very welcome and of help. 

What you said there made things a lot clearer, but I am still wondering about Northern Soul's effect on young people now, in 2017?

As a fan I'd love to be exposed to more Northern Soul music and events and, as you correctly pointed out, there are opportunities to be exposed to it in popular culture now. However, in the one or two Northern Soul gatherings I've witnessed, the crowds weren't made up of young people at all. When Northern Soul was mainstream it found a place in youth culture that helped shape young people's identities, do you still think it does that today? Or is the scene still thriving because of long-time fans? The latter was the impression I got but I would love to hear what you thought.

 

Thanks again! 

George

Firstly I think Russell makes some good points in the fact that its probably close to its most popular today and we see this in the commercial use of soul tracks on TV adverts, programs etc.

As for the age demographic, its true that at most events in the UK the attendees are in the 45 - 60 range. The main reasons are familiarity with and love of the music, socialising with old friends from across the country and of course there is a certain nostalgic "pull" in all of this, remembering our youth as it were. Some people have stuck with the scene from the early days, others have returned after marriage, kids etc. In the early days (for me around mid 70's when I was 13) it was about the music primarily but it was also about being part of something that wasn't mainstream but was 'underground'. Our parent didn't really understand it - all this staying out all night dancing, or hunkered over record boxes in some strange place miles away from home.  Paradoxically commercial recognition was seen as the enemy of the scene - we didn't want the mainstream media involved. Today I see a small number of younger NS fans on the scene, probably dragged along by their parents initially, but eventually learning to love it and be part of it. Some promoters actively try to give younger DJ's a chance to spin. There are some on here who relatively young and can probably expand on their own thoughts.

The scene in other parts of the world however is different and has a much younger demographic. Check out Youtube vids for venues in Europe, Scandinavia, US and Japan etc where the age relative to UK punters is much younger. I guess for these the NS sound and scene  is culturally different to what they experience in their home nations.

In my formative years it did shape my identity to some extent as the scene was allied to the white working classes by and large and thrived in the most industrial and dare I say it socio-economically deprived areas. At that period it also came along with its own dress code where you were easily identifiable as a soul fan, but you wanted this as part of your persona.

Why is there nothing comparable today ? Difficult to answer but I guess its down to technology in the form of computers, internet etc which seems to have both changed behaviours and provide instant access to any new phenomenon sweeping across nations. You don't have to get out and experience it anymore - you can do that from your armchair. The internet is global so new trends are no longer hidden underground as some form of secret and our thirst for knowledge and new experiences can be satisfied via a screen and a Wi-Fi connection.

I think I know where you are coming from.

Youth today in the UK have less opportunity to identify with a subculture made up of mainly youths, as in the past like punk, mod, and soulie etc.

You'd know what the alternatives are more than us over 50's I guess anyway.

All I can say is that none of us would have changed a minute of the Cleethorpes/Wigan/ mecca era.

Those lucky enough to have done the Twisted Wheel and Torch were even luckier!

Ed

  On 20/07/2017 at 15:02, GeorgeStorr said:

Thanks Russell (sorry!). That is, again, very helpful. 

If you email your home address to G.Storr@live.co.uk I will see a copy is sent to you in September when we go to print! 

 

  On 20/07/2017 at 15:05, GeorgeStorr said:

Also if you have good images of yourself or the Northern Soul club you co-promote they would potentially be very useful? 

Thanks again! 

Email coming your way, George. As for images, the best thing I can suggest is to have a look through our little website (url in my signature, below). The "previous soul nights" page has quite a few pics. If any are useful to you, let me know and I'll send you the full-sized file. 

  On 20/07/2017 at 12:02, GeorgeStorr said:

Hi all!

I'm a Northern Soul fan and a writer for The National Student. We're currently preparing our September print issue (normally we function as an online magazine) which will be distributed nationwide through university campuses. 

I'm writing a piece of the decline of important subcultures like Northern Soul and desperately need some insightful comments from real, long-time Northern Soul fans. If you remember the heyday of Wigan Casino etc. I'd love to hear from you. Below is a taster of the ideas behind the article and an invitation to voice your thoughts...

 

"Mass subcultures are no longer the formative part of young people’s identities that they often have been in the Britain of decades gone by.

Mods, rockers, football casuals, Northern Soul fanatics, punks and many more groups used to litter Britain’s social landscape. Those mass subcultures were immensely formative for young people who grew up and became part of them, but subcultures of the same scale, and with the same influence, don’t seem to exist in 2017.

What took their place? What equivalents have stepped in? Has their absence given young people more fluid identities? Does society miss those subcultures?" 

 

Please let me know what you think! Looking forward to hearing from you!

Best,

George 

Nothing took its place it merely went underground after Wigan closed and has been going ever since. You just needed to look for it. Really make sure you do some real research and don't buy all the myths that are floating around and perpetuated on the scene (there are many, even down to the coining of the term!). Wigan was good, but Stafford, KGB, Parr Hall, Cleethorpe's and many other clubs were brilliant too. The 100 club is still going, far outlasting all other clubs right on Oxford Road in London. UK, Japan, France, Sweden, Norway, Spain, Italy, Russia, Australia, Brazil and more, have all have continued to develop thriving scenes full of young participants....please don't go for the easy article as is normally wheeled out...baggy trousers, Wigan, 4/4 beats, heydays, acrobatics, etc. A scene that has lasted nearly five decades is obviously full of complexities , nuances and a long and varied history and deserves delving into conscientiously for such an article....good luck  best Paul

sub cults are still out there for kids, music though seems less crucial to them, I suggest taking a look at your local skate park for clues. Skaters, bmxers and god loathe them micro skoot kids, all have strong elements of sub cultures.

Grime was probably the last underground music. 

 

hip hop culture i am sure is still out there if you look for it.

  On 20/07/2017 at 17:09, dylan said:

Grime was probably the last underground music. 

 

hip hop culture i am sure is still out there if you look for it.

On the nose. It's arguable that what the public think of as Northern Soul is actually part of mainstream pup culture these days, as opposed to a clearly defined subculture. And it's definitely not a youth subculture, which is where all the OPs original examples started, albeit they were periodically revived.

It's equally arguable that there's a less immediately obvious or popular rare soul subculture hanging in there, but I can't remember whether it's the Judean People's Front or the Popular People's Front of Judea...  (splitters!)

The northern soul scene is probably a victim of its own success.

 

the obvious references are all over the place and in the mainstream they continually reference the same records and footage time and time again.

 

but to hear the classic oldies for the first time must be quite special if they click with you.

Can only speak for myself , but then again l proberly speak for many. never really felt part of a subculture or any other term that is banded around , but what l do feel is that l am part of like minded people that love soulful music 🎶🎶🎶🎶

My view is that the intrusion of mass media coverage of youth culture is what kills it (mods, rockers, northern soul kids, ravers - it's happened time and again). The MASS influx that results from exciting/edgy coverage in the press inevitably blurs the boundaries and waters down the most hardcore features of a youth cult as 'eager amateurs' join in without any feel for the the more deeply held 'secret truths' that underlie and define a particular group.

Whilst that sounds elitist it isn't as much as it sounds - when someone comes to the northern scene (or certainly when I was able to go out more often than I have birthdays) who is recognised as 'right' they'll get grabbed and DRAGGED into the core RAPIDLY (have seen it a good number of times), no matter how young or inexperienced they are.

Modern media also tends to homogenise scenes - so you'll see people picking and mixing different elements from very different youth groups; so you'll see people who look like rockabillies at allnighters, kids looking pretty moddy who are into house and so-on. This was always the case to some degree, but in the past these people were rare exotics. Nowadays there seems to be a big chunk of kids who are just into 'stuff' without the mad, obsessive allegiance to a single music form and street style that is essential to develop the essential hardcore that drives the wider group as a whole.

All-in-all I think sadly the days of the old youth cults are now gone because music has lost its hard genre boundaries and kids absorb too many different influences to become militant followers of this or that style and to a large extent many of them simply look like younger versions of their mums/dads again... When I was younger I always used to say that I respected headbangers and bikers FAR more than the local chart disco kids - even though in my home town us scooterboys were often at war with them - because at least they were REALLY into what they liked.

I always used to say I thought that northern had many of the features of a religion - the whole 'keep the faith' thing was never completely tongue in cheek.

Dx 

Hi George.

Not sure there was ever a Northern Soul sub-culture in the way the way there was punk rock, skinheads etc - it was more a dance music appreciation movement that morphed from RnB to Motown to Sixties Soul to Crossover. Rock music evolved in the same way albeit on a larger scale, but this is not regarded as a sub-culture. Northern Soul has flourished since Stafford picked up from where Wigan left off and the scene has become more overground, bordering on mainstream popular culture nowadays.

In 2017, you now have the Festival Goers, Hi Fi Nerds with big headphones, Teenies wired to phones sampling chart-topping ballads, Wannabe Gangstas chanting vile verses, Ravers re-living the dance scenes of decades ago, and there are probably others that your readers will know about.

Please keep your write-up objective, and with as little pseudo sociological mumbo-jumbo as possible. We continue to enjoy a particular style of music that is almost 50 years old - that in itself is the story, that there exists relatively unknown music, yet it sounds better than anything that has ever been composed, and is still being discovered by young and old alike.

I look forward to reading your finished product on Soul Source.

I'm going to offer some pseudo sociological mumbo-jumbo? (Sorry Frankie)

"Mass subcultures are no longer the formative part of young people’s identities that they often have been in the Britain of decades gone by. 

Think this needs a social history perspective. Connectivity through various forms of instantly available social media could be argued to encourage "mass" but diminish "sub" culture. I know it's a bit of an easy hit to focus on Wigan Casino but it offers an easily imagined bench mark. Imagine Wigan if we all has iphones and FaceBook , imagine covering a record with mass access to the internet. By the late 70s early 80s the regular Saturday nights were often quite poorly attended, with Friday oldies and oldies revival nights being much more popular. A few videos on Facebook and I suspect participation would have fluctuated wildly as a flavour of the month venue.   I'm thinking of subculture differently to thinking about an underground scene. By the time Wigan was mid-life, there was already Wigans Chosen few and Wigans Ovation on Top of the Pops, hardly underground. But I do think I identified with a sub-culture (although not exclusive from other sub-cultures). Think of the mid 70s 'soulboy / girl' uniform, the badges on our bags to identify participation. The vast majority at Wigan were a similar age group, mostly traditional working class (when working class was a cultural term). I like to think there was something about stepping outside the cultural norm of whatever culture you came from, into a sub-culture, to get into 'nighters'. At the time we were catching the X67 LincMan bus to Manchester, joining it at Mansfield (then a mining town), when parents' generation night out was the village miners welfare. Going to Nottingham from Mansfield was thought to be adventurous (and you couldn't say you were from Mansfield), going to Wigan to dance all night at a venue that didn't serve beer took some explaining! I think within working class cultures of the 70s, as a youth you picked your subculture as your own right of passage, making a statement not only about preferences regarding things like sport and music but also about belonging and wanting to be seen differently to the alternative mass cultural norm. I think that when I 'picked' northern soul, I didn't think I was picking a sub-culture, I was picking a music style, and ok perhaps some admiration for the big lads at the youth club as pioneers. I think I grew into belonging to a sub-culture through self-identification and identifying others within that group to belong with.

What amuses me is that the identifiers of that sub-culture, badges, bags, now belong to a mocked up retro-version that is mainstream in identity. 

What groups "litter Britain’s social landscape" now? Think the point is well made about skateboards, scooters etc is well made. But I also think group identity has now drifted more towards religious and political identification including gender-politic. It was much easier for us. 

Hi George, Wherever did you get the impression that Northern Soul is in decline?.Without a shadow of a doubt Northern soul is and has been for a long time on the increase.It is a subculture and genre that has now spanned the globe. You only have to look on here (soul source) in the events section to see how many Northern Soul  nights, All nighters,Alldayers and weekenders there are here in the uk,Europe and in the world each week.I would go as far to say that there are far more than there ever was and continues to grow.I would respectfully suggest that you think of another way to discuss Northern Soul in your article, possibly covering how it started and to where it is today. I'm sure it would make interesting reading to many students who probably are not aware of what Northern soul is.Who knows we might even see Northern soul at Student union venues throughout the country!.I sincerely hope I come across as someone who is wanting to give you constructive comment and not having a go. Hope the article goes well.Best Regards a passionate "Northern Soulie"   Fred Ward.

Edited July 27, 20177 yr by Mr Fred

Short but sweet.
I agree with Mr Fred, the scene is stronger now than it was even in the 70s, with more young people getting into the music, because they are either fed up of the Dross that's being force fed to them through the major and some minor radio stations, or because they are listening to what their Fathers, Mothers and even Grandparents are listening to and thinking "Y'know, this is really good".

I run the 'Leeds Central Soul Club', I reopened it over 6 years ago after it had been closed for some 30 years. I am always amazed at how many young n's are coming down with either their friends, and in some cases, with their parents. We get the younger end of the market even asking for some of the rare stuff, not the usual Frank Wilson's and The Snake, and they dance better than some of us could even back in the day.

My point is, whoever told you that the scene is in decline, I have a spare pair of concrete boots that you should try out on them, 'cos they haven't got a clue.

Peace Out

Edited July 27, 20177 yr by Northern Soul UK

Just wanted to thank everyone who contributed to this thread, it has been a massive help. If anyone has individual objections to being quoted in the article can you please let me know either by return comment on here or via email on G.Storr@live.co.uk 

I am working on the piece now. Thanks again all!!!

George 

ALSO the biggest struggle I am having at this point is finding good photographs for the piece. If anyone has any good high-resolution photographs of soul nights, soul style or soul memorabilia please send them to G.Storr@live.co.uk - again obviously this is only if you would be happy for them to be used in the article.

 

Thanks again so much for all your help! 

Hi GeorgeStorr

Maybe worth checking this site for photos   www.richardjonphotography.co.uk

Cheers Paul

  On 05/08/2017 at 18:28, soul shrews said:

Hi GeorgeStorr

Maybe worth checking this site for photos   www.richardjonphotography.co.uk

Cheers Paul

Paul. you beat me to it. Some great photos on here  Good luck George

Steve

Yes Steve he was even over here in Amsterdam (@ Amsterdan Soul Club) a few years ago. Talented guy

Cheers Paul

Hi George,I'm sure your article will make good reading. Just wanted to ask when will the article be available on line to read and is there a Web address to access it?    I am one of the resident Dj's at The Leeds Central Soul Club  All dayers, which are run bi monthly .With the next one being on the 20th of this month, then in October you can keep track in the events column on here.Why not give us a visit, maybe you could do a review for your magazine? and you will experience a venue in the heart of Yorkshire and I promise you it will be a truly memorable day.ATB Fred Ward.

 

          

Edited August 6, 20177 yr by Mr Fred

Thanks for that, I will have a look and get in touch with him! 

For sourcing the article Fred, it will be out in September. We're having to plan well ahead as it's for our print edition and normally we are primarily an online publication. Here is the website where further information will be available nearer the time - https://www.thenationalstudent.com/ - I will of course be contactable for updates too via email- G.Storr@live.co.uk 

Thanks again all. 

  On 05/08/2017 at 18:28, soul shrews said:

Hi GeorgeStorr

Maybe worth checking this site for photos   www.richardjonphotography.co.uk

Cheers Paul

Hi Paul.

I googled www.richardjonphotography.co.uk and it keeps bringing up www.jimrichardsonphotography.com!

Can you post a link please.

Regards.

Drew.

https://www.richardjonphotography.co.uk/

Thanks WoodButcher

Cheers Paul