Are soul releases on CD drying up?

[Davemac3]

I remember a few years ago having soul CDs from the likes of Kent, Outta Sight etc arriving on a weekly basis.  In the last year or so this seems to have dried up and there appear to be very few new releases.  Is there much left to release?

[Thinksmart]

Yes there are huge amounts to release but mostly beyond the obvious now.  Lots of plays have faded away and never been compiled on CD.  Going back to the old Soul Supply LPs has lots that are not yet on CD. It is slower but also goes in phases.  Things are changing though - casual buyers probably have enough, the endless glut of copyright pre 1963 compilations, the complexities of licensing, the amount of effort to the sales level, the focus on Popcorn and R&B releases  There are good USA compilations on smaller labels.  Outta Sight is still preparing releases.  Major label groups clearly are commissioning less.

[Scotters]

Agree probably fewer recently (assuming you mean previously unreleased 60's/70's) but I think there's still a decent CD release at least every month and some strong new download only tracks from iTunes, Bandcamp and CD baby etc. The Ace/Kent releases are quite consistent still I think. A very good CD comp on the way from Soul Junction soon featuring tracks from The Holidays incl some unreleased numbers and alt recordings. Several strong new download/CD releases from small independent studios such as Blue Lotus Recordings (great album from Roland Johnson last year & more recently Gene Jackson's "1963"). I noticed last week that the previously Jap only CD album from Brian Owens & The Deacons of Soul is now available on iTunes too, so hopefully more income for those guys and that interesting label. I'll be happy to learn of any more recent & decent CD's or downloads that others are enjoying. Cheers, Steve 

[Thinksmart]

Hi Steve, yes you have to look around a bit more now.  There is a great Dynamics collection just released for example.  The new J&D label released three good CDs recently with the 'All Night Long' one focusing on Northern Soul (the others were early Funk groove and Crossover/Modern Soul).

 

[Rick Cooper]

On 16/04/2017 at 14:46, ThinkSmart said:

Hi Steve, yes you have to look around a bit more now.  There is a great Dynamics collection just released for example.  The new J&D label released three good CDs recently with the 'All Night Long' one focusing on Northern Soul (the others were early Funk groove and Crossover/Modern Soul).

 

Have you got any details of the J&D releases, I couldn't find anything on the net, are they legit?

Agree that CD releases are a bit less than 15 - 20 years ago but still some nice stuff coming out.

Do you know anything about Interstate Records that had a couple of  Sweet Soul compilation CDs last year - This Time Will Be Different and This Love is For Real. Have they released anything else?

Rick

[Thinksmart]

Yes the J&D releases are legal, taken from masters. And compiled by Dean Rutland.

Here they are https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=sr_adv_m_pop?__mk_en_GB=ÅMÅZÕÑ&search-alias=popular&unfiltered=1&field-keywords=&field-artist=&field-title=&field-label=J%26d&field-ean=&field-browse=&field-price=&field-binding_browse-bin=&emi=&sort=&Adv-Srch-Music-Album-Submit.x=65&Adv-Srch-Music-Album-Submit.y=10

The Interstate releases were good but I do not know any more of them.

 

Edited April 17, 2017 by ThinkSmart

[Daved]

The Soul Music Anthology CD series are very good. I've got Melba Moore, The Manhattans and Norman Connors. A Teena Marie has just come out along with Kashif. I recommend them.

[Mickey Finn]

Also Mother's Finest ...

Meanwhile BBR have started putting together anthologies, such as Kleeer, GQ and more recently Donald Byrd.

These are all great comps but ... considering that all these artists (minus Mother's Finest) have had extensive and recent back catalogue reissues already, I'm not sure this is a good thing, as it points to a slow down of new (=not already recently reissued) material coming out. Some of this stuff can be justified on the grounds that the earlier reissue, even if recent, is now fetching stupid money. For example, the Donald Byrd anthology features the complete second album he recorded with Isaac Hayes, which was earlier released on Wounded Bird and is now not so easy to find, going for prices in 3 figures. There was a similarly quick reissue of Twennynine's final album By Robinsongs, after it had been out on Wounded Bird, sold quickly and ended up unfindable.

But more anthologies and less completist reissues suggests we might have reached a peak of some sort, as there seems to be more recycling than real digging going on. There will be good reasons for this (e.g., major labels not cooperating with the sourcing of Masters, copyright issues, etc.), but it's a shame nonetheless. I'm assuming that there is a time limit to all this, as a generation of people within the industry retires and as the market shrinks due to similar ageing process among punters. If anthologies and special edition sevens can keep the other work afloat financially, then good stuff but hopefully this will not take the place of unearthing new material for reissue or first time release.

The Interstate releases are very good indeed, and here's hoping more are on the way. I'd appreciate more informative liner notes though ...

[Johndelve]

Yes, I think they are drying up, but not surprising after thirty years or so of trawling through back catalogues.  Ace are still a great source of course, but are repeating more and more tracks from previous releases.

The music on those two Interstate CDs mentioned above is sublime based on the track listings but I think it is 99.99% likely they are bootlegs. Too many different labels involved for legit licensing I would have thought.

 

[Rick Cooper]

12 hours ago, johndelve said:

Yes, I think they are drying up, but not surprising after thirty years or so of trawling through back catalogues.  Ace are still a great source of course, but are repeating more and more tracks from previous releases.

The music on those two Interstate CDs mentioned above is sublime based on the track listings but I think it is 99.99% likely they are bootlegs. Too many different labels involved for legit licensing I would have thought.

 

John

The Interstate CDs are excellent and I can see why they could be thought to be bootlegs. The total lack of details of the writers,labels,producers, dates and publisher looks dubious but they may have been aimed at the US buyer who only wanted the music and wasn't too bothered about such stuff. The packaging is fairly good, certainly better than most bootlegs. They were out of stock at Amazon for at least 5 months so I tried to contact the label . I couldn't find the right people as there seemed to be UK and other US companies using the same name. The writer of the sleeve notes ,Sonny Marrow is a songwriter and recording artist who has done other sleeve notes. I'd go with them being legit, but would like more info and more releases.

Rick

 

 

[Mickey Finn]

On a similar tip, for anyone who missed it, is this quite recent and excellent compilation by the late Bob Abrahamian:

 

[Soul16]

I can recommend the CD below,

https://acerecords.co.uk/some-kinda-magic-the-songs-of-jerry-ross

OK, it's not all Northern, or soul, but there's some great stuff on it. The other songwriter series CDs on Ace are excellent too. 

Hopefully there'll be a Randazzo/Pike/Hart compilation soon...

[Mickey Finn]

On 4/26/2017 at 22:04, Soul16 said:

I can recommend the CD below,

https://acerecords.co.uk/some-kinda-magic-the-songs-of-jerry-ross

OK, it's not all Northern, or soul, but there's some great stuff on it. The other songwriter series CDs on Ace are excellent too. 

Hopefully there'll be a Randazzo/Pike/Hart compilation soon...

In addition to the new stuff I think there's room for 2 separate new threads: Albums reissued on cd, and CD compilations. The Jerry Ross collection fits into the second perfectly. I've got various candidates for both but for me I would love to learn more about those that I might have missed, i.e., not necessarily recent releases but (to whatever extent) still available and worth bagging.

Meanwhile, I guess the "Albums you would like to see on cd" thread would be a good place to think of dream compilations like the Randazzo and co. suggestion above - track listings included! 

[Rick Cooper]

On 2017-4-16 at 14:46, ThinkSmart said:

Hi Steve, yes you have to look around a bit more now.  There is a great Dynamics collection just released for example.  The new J&D label released three good CDs recently with the 'All Night Long' one focusing on Northern Soul (the others were early Funk groove and Crossover/Modern Soul).

 

Got the Dynamics CD after your post and agree it is a great release. The sort of CD that shows how some artists, whilst never releasing loads of stuff, always produced top quality records. The CD is on Play Back Records but they don't give a web site on the sleeve so I searched the web and only found a Playback in Australia that has a tetchy comment on their site that they do NOT have a Howard Tate CD.

From looking at sales sites I've found the following on Play Back

4302 Loving Sister

4303 Crowns of Glory

8501 O V Wright

8502 Howard Tate

8503 Joe Haywood

8504 Johnny Bristol

8506 Ernie K Doe

8507 Frankie and the Spindles

8508 Moments

8510 Dynamics

8514 Dells

I've got the Howard Tate which is a cracking CD but anyone got any comments on the others, also any details on the missing numbers.

The sleeve notes on the Dynamics CD are by Sonny Marrow who also did the ones on the Interstate releases so there maybe a connection between the two labels.

As for northern compilations I'd agree that most tracks have been released and we don't need yet more 25 Northern Floorfillers for a fiver. However it's still possible to compile a great CD as the J&D All Night Long CD shows. Some tracks have been done before but a well thought out selection and even two instrumentals , so what's not to like.

With labels like Play Back and J&D/Numero hopefully there are still some good CDs to come.

Rick

[Mickey Finn]

Play Back seems to be the latest incarnation of a Polish label that has been releasing some desirable and neglected soul LPs. As Play Back it is doing some interesting compilations ... I've ordered the Frankie and the Spindles one and the Dynamics won't be far behind. The sound quality is good and the packaging is faithful to the originals, but there is a question about whether its a bootleg operation. That Australian version claims that it is, but by now you would reckon that the long arm of somebodys law would have reached out.

[Nathan]

8 hours ago, Mickey Finn said:

 but there is a question about whether its a bootleg operation. That Australian version claims that it is, but by now you would reckon that the long arm of somebodys law would have reached out.

Not always that simple... for example, it can be hard to locate a label releasing bootleg titles when they don't have a a website; or put Polish text on their releases as a red herring when -  though the CDs are pressed in the Czech Republic - the operation is actually run from the US under a different name. Hypothetically speaking .

You might think it's all well and good to purchase these CDs of dubious origin; but if you do, you're just fuelling the market for further bootleg products. And remember, every time one of these is released, it means that Kent etc will now probably never touch that artist or title as the bootleg title would have dried up a significant portion of the market.
So you'll never get to hear these songs in Master Tape-quality sound (unless it's on a CD these labels have copied from a previous legitimate release ), you'll never get to hear any associated unreleased tracks that exist. And the artist who made the recordings and the songwriters who composed them get nothing.
(while your purchase lines the pockets of the shady people profiting off the talent and work of these artists and songwriters)

 

On 19/04/2017 at 08:04, Rick Cooper said:

 

The Interstate CDs are excellent and I can see why they could be thought to be bootlegs. The total lack of details of the writers,labels,producers, dates and publisher looks dubious 

so I tried to contact the label . I couldn't find the right people

 

[Mickey Finn]

Simple it most certainly isn't. I don't think it's right to buy bootlegs, but if reputable retailers are flogging stuff and reputable jocks playing it then, without access to the kind of lawyers that e.g. record companies or Amazon can afford, I'm kinda stuck with the appearance of legit. Until proven otherwise I think it's a reasonable assumption. As it is also helping some artists to get their work noticed again and even played on radio (with money collected by outfits like the Performing Rights Society - yes, pennies at best, but still...) it is better for the artists than simply remaining in the vaults and forgotten.

The people behind Solaris/Fever Dream/Play Back have gone to a lot of trouble to put together a set of rather nice and desirable modern soul releases in decently packaged, decently mastered nick. That plus distribution means a decent budget to back it up. And all it would take to close down the whole thing would be the threat of a writ from any lawyers acting on behalf of the music majors, whose copyright would surely have been infringed by now if there was anything dodgy going on. And the artists concerned would surely pipe up - Keni Burke could easily say "bootleg" and that's it for many who might be considering the purchase of these discs. If Amazon pulled all its titles from this label, that would be a clear enough signal for others to follow. Somebody could check with Sonny Marrow ... presumably he's getting paid something.

As for Polish text on Czech-produced discs, there's English text on Soul Junction's Czech-produced discs. And to be running a bootleg scam from the USA, litigation capital of the world, sounds like a high risk strategy at the best of times. But if that is what is happening, with either Play Back or Interstate, I'll be avoiding those as soon as it's clear that it's all a bootleg scam.

It's possible that a lot of people who are very publicly upset about bootlegs are worried that the exclusivity of their collection is going to be compromised by reissues, especially comps involving singles-only releases. Easy to hide that worry behind concern for artists.

Almost all of my purchases are brand new, meaning that the money goes to the record company, the retailer and the artist. I get the satisfaction of properly made stuff that enables me to enjoy the music at best quality, with decent packaging that (hopefully) lets me learn about who else is playing on the sessions, production, and any further background info, being the trainspotter that I am. That's why anything from Expansion, Soul Brother, Soulmusic.com, BBR, Kent, Soul Junction, Outta Sight, etc. is likely to end up making its way to my music system (subject to budget restrictions - it's hard to keep up sometimes). I want to support legitimate issues and the people behind them, including the artists. 

No better than bootlegs in my view are the music majors sitting on piles of mastertapes and refusing to do anything with them, even when there are enthusiastic reissuers begging for licensing rights. I can see why a few collectors might like that situation, though.

[Nathan]

16 hours ago, Mickey Finn said:

As it is also helping some artists to get their work noticed again and even played on radio (with money collected by outfits like the Performing Rights Society - yes, pennies at best, but still...) it is better for the artists than simply remaining in the vaults and forgotten.

Have to respectfully disagree - as I mentioned, bootlegs prevent legit reissues, meaning the artists will never see any money. These bootleg labels also don't pay publishing, so the songwriters see nothing either (as much as I hate PD labels, at least they pay mechanicals).

16 hours ago, Mickey Finn said:

The people behind Solaris/Fever Dream/Play Back have gone to a lot of trouble to put together a set of rather nice and desirable modern soul releases in decently packaged, decently mastered nick. That plus distribution means a decent budget to back it up. And all it would take to close down the whole thing would be the threat of a writ from any lawyers acting on behalf of the music majors, whose copyright would surely have been infringed by now if there was anything dodgy going on.

Punters shouldn't be worried about the budgets of dodgies who are releasing illegal product, but rather the labels who are working hard to put together legitimate reissues

16 hours ago, Mickey Finn said:

And to be running a bootleg scam from the USA, litigation capital of the world, sounds like a high risk strategy at the best of times.

Hence the invention of imaginary labels from "Poland" to release titles under....

16 hours ago, Mickey Finn said:

It's possible that a lot of people who are very publicly upset about bootlegs are worried that the exclusivity of their collection is going to be compromised by reissues, especially comps involving singles-only releases. Easy to hide that worry behind concern for artists.

If this is the case....would it not be a valid concern?

16 hours ago, Mickey Finn said:

 I want to support legitimate issues and the people behind them, including the artists.

that's what we want to hear!

 

[Mickey Finn]

So far all we have is suspicion and accusation, despite (a) lack of any legal action, (b) lack of any public protest from parties concerned, and (c) quality of the packaging. Not a question of worry about budgets, simply that the level of investment compared to the size of the market makes these operations look less than a typical quick buck bootlegging scam. It's also quite high profile, hence risky, since the target market is going to have more than a few with acute sensitivity to this sort of thing. None of this disproves the charge, but there's only suspicion the other way, so far. But it's not so long ago that the majors were chasing after ordinary punters doing illegal file sharing. The Play Back and Interstate operations are on a completely different scale, and surely easier to target with at least official public warnings.

There's a level of care and attention going on in both the Play Back and Interstate releases, which suggests a labour of love rather than a get rich quick scheme. But of course that's no proof of legality. As Sonny Marrow is now the common link between these two operations, it would be worth contacting him if he's on Facebook or even here.

Concern for artists is definitely valid. But like national security it can be exploited for less worthy motives. Inflating the value of long deleted sevens does not earn the artist a penny.

Anyway, I appreciate the time you've taken on this.

[Guest]

There are certainly bootlegs on the aforementioned list. The Ernie K-Doe and Joe Haywood CDs were put together from the record collections of a well known soull afficianado and myself. There were just a handful of copies of each one made exclusively for our  soul-minded mates. They all had disclaimers that they were for private use only. When I was trying to track down a missing Ernie K-Doe track (that doesn't exist I think) I sent a gratis copy of completed Cds (plus the Joe Haywood) to someone Stateside in return for his help. 

It will have been eighteen months later or so but they were bootlegged on Play back using more or less the same graphics. My friend from whom many of the tracks were drawn has been subject to bootleggers for years. They take his uploaded files and analogue recordings and reuse them for money in their own pockets. Some of these bootlegs don't even bother to remove the vinyl glitches from the recordings as is the case with the K-Doe material. Phoney addresses in France, Czecha and Poland are ways of covering the origin.

Naturally I have suspicions as to who is responsible in this country and abroad but you can't go around accusing people without evidence. It's an old problem and like prostitution it's not ever going to be stopped. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mickey Finn]

That's the strongest testimony so far and good enough for me to be putting any further Play Back purchases on hold. It's not like there's a lack of choice out there.

Nevertheless, hard to believe that there wouldn't have been some copyright holder with deep enough pockets to engage lawyers to warn off retailers from stocking these. Amazon has to buy them from somewhere, as would any wholesaler etc. What's difficult?

It would still be worth checking with Sonny Marrow if possible. Another artist still active and able to give a view on this (like Keni Burke) is William Bell, whose "Coming back for more" album originally on Mercury 1977 was reissued by Razor & Tie back in the 90s, before "Solaris" released another reissue a few years back. Looking forward to seeing Mr Bell perform in Finland this summer

[The Upsetter]

Getting back to the topic yes it has dried up but there is still tons of stuff unreleased, a few i have got hold of lately, on the History of soul label.https://www.historyofsoul.net/ some great stuff the Detroit and new york wer really good, and the ohio soul was one of the best cds ive heard in a long time, mostly late 50s and 60s. Also the Jukebox  jam labelhttps://www.jazzmanrecords.co.uk, some great cds jukebox jam vol 1 and 2 great cds if r&b your thing and the two jukebox mambo cds are fantastic again wot it says on the box ,no 70s shite, on STAG-O-LEE the 3 volumes of slow grind fever 2 lps on each cd, are really good  exotic r&B of the popcorn type but really good, All the above are well worth a listen, cant speak for how legit they are, im finding that isnt as black and white these days as some are making it out,they have nothing to do with me just cds that have been recommended by friends.   

[Johndelve]

7 hours ago, Mickey Finn said:

That's the strongest testimony so far and good enough for me to be putting any further Play Back purchases on hold. It's not like there's a lack of choice out there.

Nevertheless, hard to believe that there wouldn't have been some copyright holder with deep enough pockets to engage lawyers to warn off retailers from stocking these. Amazon has to buy them from somewhere, as would any wholesaler etc. What's difficult?

It would still be worth checking with Sonny Marrow if possible. Another artist still active and able to give a view on this (like Keni Burke) is William Bell, whose "Coming back for more" album originally on Mercury 1977 was reissued by Razor & Tie back in the 90s, before "Solaris" released another reissue a few years back. Looking forward to seeing Mr Bell perform in Finland this summer

I think, Mickey, that assumes that a) copyright holders even know about these issues in the first place and b) that they could be bothered to do anything about it even if they did. I can't see many people in the business going to the trouble of alerting someone as powerful as Amazon over something like an Ernie K-Doe CD that will sell very few copies in the first place. 

[Mickey Finn]

16 hours ago, johndelve said:

I think, Mickey, that assumes that a) copyright holders even know about these issues in the first place and b) that they could be bothered to do anything about it even if they did. I can't see many people in the business going to the trouble of alerting someone as powerful as Amazon over something like an Ernie K-Doe CD that will sell very few copies in the first place. 

That's a fair point, but when the Stairsteps, Keni Burke and William Bell (plus the Dells, Johnny Bristol) have all been released in this way, it's reasonable to expect some kind of public protest at least, if something dodgy is going on. There's also the estate of George Harrison to think about for the Stairsteps and Keni Burke, since those albums came out originally on the Dark Horse label.

It's only a few years back when the music majors were going after kids for illegal file shares, with expensive lawyers hired to take them to court. Meanwhile, if these bootleggers really are making money on this stuff, what does that say for the majors just sitting on it, unwilling even to help enthusiastic volunteers to do the legwork and help put together a more professionally produced end-product for a dedicated target market?

[Johndelve]

2 hours ago, Mickey Finn said:

That's a fair point, but when the Stairsteps, Keni Burke and William Bell (plus the Dells, Johnny Bristol) have all been released in this way, it's reasonable to expect some kind of public protest at least, if something dodgy is going on. There's also the estate of George Harrison to think about for the Stairsteps and Keni Burke, since those albums came out originally on the Dark Horse label.

It's only a few years back when the music majors were going after kids for illegal file shares, with expensive lawyers hired to take them to court. Meanwhile, if these bootleggers really are making money on this stuff, what does that say for the majors just sitting on it, unwilling even to help enthusiastic volunteers to do the legwork and help put together a more professionally produced end-product for a dedicated target market?

Fair points too, Mickey, but I think there ARE public protests,  for example in this very thread, it's just that hardly anyone cares.

And to that point, I agree it doesn't say much for the majors who can't be bothered to allow enthusiastic volunteers (though, to be fair,  I think there are some exceptions) to help out - even take the lead - on planning releases of retrospective material, but the companies have bigger fish to fry and, once again, it's such a low priority for them that they can't be bothered.

Finally, I doubt if the bootleggers are making much money on releases like the Ernie K-Doe, but obviously enough for them to take the trouble.

[Nathan]

I think - to answer the original question posed; soul releases on CD ARE drying up, but it's probably due to the majority of artists who are obvious candidates for a CD release (in terms of being well known enough to be a safe bet) have already been done before.
That said, there's still quite a few un-comped soul artists I can think of that are worthy of a CD release - though a fair few would be difficult for labels wanting to do them due to potentially challenging licensing.