Williams & Watson - Matrix Numbers

[Ray Copley]

Hi

Can anyone confirm that Willaims & Watson - To For The Price Of One / To Late Okeh Demo 45 should have a stamped or scratched matrix numbers !

Also this one's got two labels - just want to be sure of it's authenticity !

Regards - Ray

[Tattoodave]

All Okeh originals have stamped matrix, the labels are fine, one is supposedly the Plug side (the one the DJ's should play on the radio).  Usually with the reissues the number 45 is smaller

[Chalky]

The Red A is as said the plug side.  The JZSP number confirms it a swell as the one with the A ends in 3 the flip (Too Late) 4.

Edited January 30, 2017 by chalky

[Chris L]

1 hour ago, Ray Copley said:

Hi

Can anyone confirm that Willaims & Watson - To For The Price Of One / To Late Okeh Demo 45 should have a stamped or scratched matrix numbers !

Also this one's got two labels - just want to be sure of it's authenticity !

Regards - Ray

 

Chalky

There are Los Angeles releases a lot of these had scratched matrixes, I  bought some stuff of Arthur Wright about half were scratched.

[Chris L]

1 hour ago, TattooDave said:

All Okeh originals have stamped matrix, the labels are fine, one is supposedly the Plug side (the one the DJ's should play on the radio).  Usually with the reissues the number 45 is smaller

Not so, some those Los Angeles releases have scratched matrixes.

[Ray Copley]

I was also under the impression that all Okeh had stamped in matrix but this one as scratched matrix ZSP-117383    1A   and  ZSP-117384  1B

[Ray Copley]

1 minute ago, Chris L said:

Chalky

There are Los Angeles releases a lot of these had scratched matrixes, I  bought some stuff of Arthur Wright about half were scratched.

The a side label look 100% legit and the b side as one stuck over the other but still look right ! it was just the scratched matrix I was unsure about !

 

[Tattoodave]

28 minutes ago, Chris L said:

Not so, some those Los Angeles releases have scratched matrixes.

I've never seen one Chris, I was just going from mine

[Bo Diddley]

23 minutes ago, Ray Copley said:

The a side label look 100% legit and the b side as one stuck over the other but still look right ! it was just the scratched matrix I was unsure about !

 

Hello, Just checked my demo which has a scratched in matrix similar to yours but mine has 1E on both sides.

My Demo of Quitter Never Wins also has a scratched in matrix.

Someone told me their copy of Seven Souls was a scratched in matrix. 

Looks OK to me

[Ernie Andrews]

If its styrene then usually legit. Some  white demos were booted on vynil eg Triumphs - I'm coming to your rescue and Where have all the flowers gone - Walter Jackson

[Ray Copley]

Thanks everyone and thanks to Bo Diddley for checking your copy !

Yes it is a styrene copy and I'm glad it's checks out ok !

Many Thanks - Ray

[Chris L]

11 minutes ago, TattooDave said:

I've never seen one Chris, I was just going from mine

I spent some time with Arthur Wright, he was the arranger for a lot of the Los Angeles Okeh stuff (Williams & Watson, Triumphs, etc.) some of those had scratched matrixes, all the Chigago had stamped ones. I'll check what I've got and see if I can post a scan. My Filipino Okeh demo has  a scratched one 

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, Chris L said:

Chalky

There are Los Angeles releases a lot of these had scratched matrixes, I  bought some stuff of Arthur Wright about half were scratched.

ZTSP were Columbia's New York and Hollywood pressing plants.  The J in JZSP signifies demo.  Yes some matrix are scratched in.

[Garethx]

There's a lot of misinformation in this topic.

Matrices could be scratched or stamped. Even on the same record, it's not uncommon for one side to be stamped, while the other is scratched—it's just down to where the recording was mastered. If the tapes were sent to Columbia for mastering then they were generally stamped. If the mastering was outside of a Columbia studio the matrix was scratched in by the mastering engineer at whichever facility the cut was done.

The J in JZSP on the label signifies demo.

The Z part of the code indicates a 7" single. The P part of the code refers to Columbia's Pitman, New Jersey plant which would have handled the admin of the entire release. That doesn't necessarily mean it was pressed there. The other codes for the admin offices were C for Chicago and B for Nashville (named after Bradley Recording Studios which housed Columbia's Nashville Office). The Chicago and Nashville offices did not have pressing plants on-site.

To find which Columbia pressing plant actually pressed the record look for the following:

Pitman NJ: a faint, sometimes incomplete P in the runout

Terra Haute IN: a T in the runout

Santa Clara CA: a reversed S in the runout.

The Pitman factory was built in the early 1960s. Before then pressings on the east coast were handled by a facility in Bridgeport Connecticut. The Pitman factory was designed by Minoru Yamasaki, famed as the architect of the World Trade Center.

As I've mentioned on here before the 1A to 1L (and beyond) codes refer to the lacquer-cutting sequence. Multiple lacquers were cut and sent across the country for pressing in order to make 'mothers' from which stampers were eventually produced. Each separate release had a lacquer-cutting code starting at 1A. On huge-run hit singles it's not uncommon to see the lacquer cutting codes go up to 2L, 3L and beyond. The letters do not refer to specific plants. That is why it is possible to have (for example) 1A on one side of a 45 and 1B (or C or D and onward) on the other.

 

Edited February 10, 2017 by garethx

[Chalky]

23 minutes ago, garethx said:

 

As I've mentioned on here before the 1A to 1L (and beyond) codes refer to the lacquer-cutting sequence. Multiple lacquers were cut and sent across the country for pressing in order to make 'mothers' from which stampers were eventually produced. Each separate release had a lacquer-cutting code starting at 1A. The second cutting is 1B and so on. On huge-run hit singles it's not uncommon to see the lacquer cutting codes go up to 2L, 3L and beyond. The letters do not refer to specific plants. That is why it is possible to have (for example) 1A on one side of a 45 and 1B (or C or D and onward) on the other.

 

The 1A indicate 1st recording/mix (1), 1st lacquer (A) as I have read on Dave Flynn and other sites.

Neither did I say it was pressed in New York, merely indication what the P was for as again does Flynny.

 

[Garethx]

Rereading what I wrote above it is slightly misleading on one point. The lacquer cutting 1A-1L would all be simultaneous. A second cutting would be 2-A etc., but it doesn't follow that masters beginning with a 2 would be a different version or mix.

Edited January 30, 2017 by garethx