Back cueing & damaging records

[Mark R]

20 minutes ago, Pga1 said:

Hiya, being serious for a change, regarding tracking weights- different stylus different weights, it tells you in the box they come in. Eg ortofon black s is 4 and ortofon 5e is 1.75 if I remember correctly ( 5e not for dj's).  Cheers

Exactly like I said the other day I think..........if you don't want to use the weight, buy a different stylus........setting a weight below that specified for the cart ain't the answer!!

 

Cheers,

Mark R

[Ian Stacey]

2 hours ago, Dave Rimmer said:

So why does 'cue burn' only happen at the beginning of the record ? Surely, if you can't damage a record by cueing it in, the damage would be equally spread throughout the record, not just at the beginning ? Doh !

 

that's from being in a box the edge gets damaged doh

[Ian Stacey]

cueing up on styrene as mr rimmer  pointed out damage can be caused by friction so back cue by hand good advice 

    you may also find that modern needles also now have unpolished carbon diamond heads rather than sapphires as was used in the sixties & seventies

     this is another reason that the wear is more pronounced at the beginning because modern heads cut deeper into the record than the sapphire counterparts

    there are some good comparison articles on  this very subject  I would read these it may enlighten you Stanton vs. ortofon  .As DJs you should be aware that if you do this by hand rather than the on /off switch as I always have since a teenager      

    

[Still Diggin]

3 hours ago, Dave Rimmer said:

So why does 'cue burn' only happen at the beginning of the record ? Surely, if you can't damage a record by cueing it in, the damage would be equally spread throughout the record, not just at the beginning ? Doh !

 

Exactly Dave, Some people just dont get it! Like I said in my previous post on this topic and what several have mentioned since , it is friction caused by revolving the disc several  times back and forth  faster than the speed it actually plays at. Most man made materials have different tolerances regarding friction and rubbing before they increase in temperature and become damaged. Like I mentioned before it's not rocket science. 

[Patto]

16 minutes ago, still diggin said:

Exactly Dave, Some people just dont get it! Like I said in my previous post on this topic and what several have mentioned since , it is friction caused by revolving the disc several  times back and forth  faster than the speed it actually plays at. Most man made materials have different tolerances regarding friction and rubbing before they increase in temperature and become damaged. Like I mentioned before it's not rocket science. 

Understand perfectly what you are saying mate.I have seen DJs in the past constsntly turning the platter backwards and forwards at high speed to get to the cue point they want.This causes the friction you describe

However if you are sensible and while in cue start the deck at normal speed until you hear the first sound beat then press stop as soon as possible.Then turn the platter back slowly until you cant hear any noise which should be about half a turn. The record should now be cued in at the start point and you havent applied too much friction to do it

[Bbrich]

I seem to have opened a can of worms with some differing opinions.....    what i can say is the records I damaged were fine before the occasion in question and now have hiss so cannot be due to the age of the record. Also the hiss is only at the start.  Reflecting back there is every likelihood that i did back cue too fast - i think these two records were where i changed my mind regarding what to play and probably left myself with not too much time...  

Lesson learned as they say so in future I will restrict back cueing to cheaper (vinyl) records & do it very slowly. and incorporate the other techniques advised 

[Cover-up]

3 hours ago, still diggin said:

Exactly Dave, Some people just dont get it! Like I said in my previous post on this topic and what several have mentioned since , it is friction caused by revolving the disc several  times back and forth  faster than the speed it actually plays at. Most man made materials have different tolerances regarding friction and rubbing before they increase in temperature and become damaged. Like I mentioned before it's not rocket science. 

I don't really buy this theory - like it's some sort of well researched scientific experiment, and the increase in temperature has been measured under a heat sensor or something. In my, entirely possibly wrong, opinion you'd need to be back-and-forward cuing a few hundred times at some speed to get any real temperature going...

There's styrene records which play with hiss all the way through, there's styrene records that play with distortion just in one stereo channel, there's styrene records which hiss intermittently throughout the track, there's styrene records which look trashed which play mint, there's styrene records that look mint that play like shit.

There's different materials used in styrene presses, some stand up pretty well, and some (like James Brown People singles) seem like they deteriorate with every play. 

The most common cause of problems with styrene is playing with a duff needle and back-cuing - I've DJed on old Citronic twin decks and every styrene record I played was ruined all the way through (lesson learned - I DID get paid £20, though - so that replaced ONE of the records  ). That's nothing to do with temperature. I'm actually tempted to find an unloved styrene single to do some research on - what happens if you play the whole track forwards really fast, what happens if you play the whole track backwards really slowly etc etc.

Edited January 10, 2017 by cover-up

[Mark R]

7 minutes ago, cover-up said:

I don't really buy this theory - like it's some sort of well researched scientific experiment, and the increase in temperature has been measured under a heat sensor or something. In my, entirely possibly wrong, opinion you'd need to be back-and-forward cuing a few hundred times at some speed to get any real temperature going...

I think you;re right to suspect there's more to it than just the above, but don't rule out the above................think of the effective point load on that record off that stylus with it's minimal contact patch, quite significant I think, then the speed effects (back-cueing).......the lower tolerance to heat of the styrene material...........add it all up and.........

 

Cheers,

Mark R

[Rugby Soul Club]

On 10/01/2017 at 16:29, redditchcrew said:

that's from being in a box the edge gets damaged doh

Omg, sorry but that me laugh so much

Be careful how you put your records in a box or they will get "cue" burn. The clue is in the name

[Ian Stacey]

10 hours ago, Rugby Soul Club said:

Omg, sorry but that me laugh so much

Be careful how you put your records in a box or they will get "cue" burn. The clue is in the name

 it was supposed to be sarcastic  but funny will do  

[Dave Rimmer]

On 10/01/2017 at 21:46, cover-up said:

There's styrene records which play with hiss all the way through, there's styrene records that play with distortion just in one stereo channel, there's styrene records which hiss intermittently throughout the track, there's styrene records which look trashed which play mint, there's styrene records that look mint that play like shit.

 

I wouldn't deny any of that, God knows I've bought enough LOL. However, the topic is about cue burn, at the start of a record, which is fairly obviously caused by back cueing a record.

[JIMMY SOUL]

I'm really scratching my head about why any confusion remains about how cue burn happens - over time using a heavily weighted (I have seen people blue tac coins to headshells), heavily worn (never been replaced) styli, and dragging the record back and forth and back and forth without any regard, over the opening few seconds of the track..... it wears them out - the styrene MUCH quicker than good quality vinyl. 
It's like if you spend 3 hours a night jogging on the spot on the same patch of carpet in your living room it'll go threadbare quicker than the rest of the carpet...

[Bbrich]

3 hours ago, Dave Rimmer said:

I wouldn't deny any of that, God knows I've bought enough LOL. However, the topic is about cue burn, at the start of a record, which is fairly obviously caused by back cueing a record.

absolutely! I started the topic with that assumption (& was a bit surprised that this was not a universally held view) and although i have always generally backcued because i found that the most convenient way, in the light of recent experience (2 x expensive records damaged - my own fault for going too fast I think by the way) I wanted to hear others views on;

- do they back-cue & just accept the damage ? 

- do you backcue on the basis that if the equipment is good and you do it very carefully all should be well?

{if i'm not mistaken i have seen some expensive records being backcued by top dj's at venue where it is on the camera?}

- do you employ other techniques to avoid backcueing (that also avoids that wwwwwhhhrrriiiiinngg up and any gap of more than say 2 seconds?) that allows use of the mic when desired -  many thanks for all advice on this. !

[JIMMY SOUL]

3 hours ago, bbrich said:

absolutely! I started the topic with that assumption (& was a bit surprised that this was not a universally held view) and although i have always generally backcued because i found that the most convenient way, in the light of recent experience (2 x expensive records damaged - my own fault for going too fast I think by the way) I wanted to hear others views on;

- do they back-cue & just accept the damage ? 

- do you backcue on the basis that if the equipment is good and you do it very carefully all should be well?

{if i'm not mistaken i have seen some expensive records being backcued by top dj's at venue where it is on the camera?}

- do you employ other techniques to avoid backcueing (that also avoids that wwwwwhhhrrriiiiinngg up and any gap of more than say 2 seconds?) that allows use of the mic when desired -  many thanks for all advice on this. !

Hello sir, 
I have never had any damage from cueing records, as I do it very carefully. Wind it forward VERY slowly with the headphone volume turned up loud, and at the fist slight sign of the music starting, rewind it VERY slowly back a rotation or so... It helps to have your own cartridges too (my suggestion would be conical stylus) so you can guarantee they are in good shape. And the advice about checking the tone arm weighting etc. earlier in this thread is absolutely sound - you do not want to put it on a rare styrene 45 with it wound up to maximum weight, as I have encountered before, for instance...
End of the day, with a conical stylus set up correctly there's no reason why winding it backwards would be any different to winding it forwards - within reason of course - and when done carefully!!!

Edited January 12, 2017 by JIMMY SOUL

[Cover-up]

9 hours ago, Dave Rimmer said:

I wouldn't deny any of that, God knows I've bought enough LOL. However, the topic is about cue burn, at the start of a record, which is fairly obviously caused by back cueing a record.

Well, my point was that intermittent hiss on a record or a record with distortion in one channel isn't caused by heat...

[Frankie Crocker]

Not an expert on this, but observing Hip-Hop DJ's 'scratching', back and forth, faster and faster, never seemed to harm their vinyl 12 inch records. It is therefore not speed of back cueing but the styrene material of the record and/or stylus deficiencies that cause groove damage. Couple this with not dampening the stylus on contact with the run-in and you have hiss in the very place that is impacted upon repeatedly. The term 'OK for DJing' was coined so flawed records could be played out on a loud system - maybe we should recognise that some records are just 'too good to DJ with' and best left at home.

[Benji]

sorry if I may repeat anything already said. But I didn't read all the posts in this thread.

 Easy way to avoid needle burn:

1) use a proper modern DJ needle. they are shaped for cueing backwards and forwards, no matter how fast. Hi-Fi needles are shaped for one-way use.

2) Do not put too much weight on the tone arm. Today's vinyl can handle heavy weight, e.g. scratching etc. But yesterday's vinyl or styrene can't. Rule of thumb: 2,5 on the scale for any record in VG- or better condition. If you're about to play a record in worse condition, e.g. one that might jump or is warped, use 3.5 max. Turn back to 2.5 afterwards.

I'v been dj'ing and cueing records 1.000s of times over the last 25 years. Never damaged a record.

[Cover-up]

7 hours ago, Benji said:

2) Do not put too much weight on the tone arm. Today's vinyl can handle heavy weight, e.g. scratching etc. But yesterday's vinyl or styrene can't. Rule of thumb: 2,5 on the scale for any record in VG- or better condition. If you're about to play a record in worse condition, e.g. one that might jump or is warped, use 3.5 max. Turn back to 2.5 afterwards.

I'v been dj'ing and cueing records 1.000s of times over the last 25 years. Never damaged a record.

I would say there's no difference between "today's" vinyl and "yesterday's" - if anything modern vinyl is worse, you can scratch old vinyl 45s endlessly with no bad effects - but this thread is about styrene. Also, your tracking weights rule - the tracking weight is directly linked to the weight of the stylus - some are 1.5, some are 3.5 - it's not a "one size fits all" rule. 2.5 could well be too heavy for certain styluses (or should I say stylii).

 

Anyway, I feel like this thread could just run and run, everyone has their own techniques and opinions!

[Daved]

The best way to avoid it is back cueing at all. There's absolutely no need for it when dj'ing with 45s, if you follow the advice in post 2. It's a piece of cake. Even I can play a set without back-cueing and there would be no silences, missing vital parts of the song or that weird wind up noise. In fact, I reckon I could do it with any 15 records that were handed to me.

[Phild]

I always wind back records. I can't cue them in any other way, my eyes aren't good enough.

 

Mid you. I've "cue burned" loads of them as a result.

[Mr Fred]

As long as the stylus is not worn as most decent Dj's will ensure they are always in top condition, winding the turntable in reverse when cueing shouldn't damage the run in on vinyl. Regards Fred.