Mark S Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 There have been loads of crap records played thats down to the DJ,s and the punters that have supported such . WSOT is contrived pap that has no provenance or history and was deliberately produced for a specific reason . Ian Levine as a DJ back in the day one of my heroes but WSOT is just wrong and should never have been played out originally let alone being discused with a view to it being played out now . I appreciate that quality is subjective but there is so much quality stuff that does,nt get a look in . The thing is with NS music for me is that the records that I love were produced at a historical point in time the style and production reflects that and as such there is a tangible link and that adds quality and value tailor made records lack that IMO .
Pete S Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 There have been loads of crap records played thats down to the DJ,s and the punters that have supported such . WSOT is contrived pap that has no provenance or history and was deliberately produced for a specific reason . Ian Levine as a DJ back in the day one of my heroes but WSOT is just wrong and should never have been played out originally let alone being discused with a view to it being played out now . I appreciate that quality is subjective but there is so much quality stuff that does,nt get a look in . The thing is with NS music for me is that the records that I love were produced at a historical point in time the style and production reflects that and as such there is a tangible link and that adds quality and value tailor made records lack that IMO . I maintain that some tailor mades were perfect for the time and still stand up - just about - Weak Spot, LJ Johnson, you couldn't have got bigger records than these - LJ Johnson even went massive a second time as a shock revived oldie in 78. Weak Spot still sounds good. 1
Markw Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 markw, on 12 Feb 2014 - 1:19 PM, said: "Knowing Me, Knowing You" by Abba is, arguably (by many), a 'good record'. "I Can See For Miles" by the Who is definitely (in my opinion), a very 'good record'. Would I wish to hear them played out at a soul night of any description whatsoever? No. Would I question the discernment and judgement of any DJ playing it at a soul night? Yes. Doesn't make sense. Wrong Side Of Town is a NS record like it or not, the others aren't, The Who is a rock record and Abba is a sh*t record, so they wouldn't be considered for play anyway. Ah ha! But it makes perfect sense - you missed my point which is that it makes no more sense considering WSOT for play as it would Abba or the Who. Even if you think WSOT is a 'good record', I cannot for the life of me see what it has to do with either Northern or Soul.
Pete S Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) markw, on 12 Feb 2014 - 1:19 PM, said: Doesn't make sense. Wrong Side Of Town is a NS record like it or not, the others aren't, The Who is a rock record and Abba is a sh*t record, so they wouldn't be considered for play anyway. Ah ha! But it makes perfect sense - you missed my point which is that it makes no more sense considering WSOT for play as it would Abba or the Who. Even if you think WSOT is a 'good record', I cannot for the life of me see what it has to do with either Northern or Soul. I don't understand why you can't see why it has anything to do with Northern Soul, it's a Northern Soul record, it ain't a soul record but it is 100% definitely a Northern Soul record...because it sounds like one. Edited February 12, 2014 by Pete S
Guest Gogs Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 markw, on 12 Feb 2014 - 1:19 PM, said: Doesn't make sense. Wrong Side Of Town is a NS record like it or not, the others aren't, The Who is a rock record and Abba is a sh*t record, so they wouldn't be considered for play anyway. Ah ha! But it makes perfect sense - you missed my point which is that it makes no more sense considering WSOT for play as it would Abba or the Who. Even if you think WSOT is a 'good record', I cannot for the life of me see what it has to do with either Northern or Soul. From JM's 6th edition price guide, (referring to the abbreviation "nor" in it's use to describe a northern soul record) "A record that has been or could be played by a Northern Soul DJ" Using this as a definition WSOT would be classed as a Northern Soul record.
Guest penny Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) Sorry but unless i am very much mistaken, No singer, songwriter, producer ever said lets make a non hit on purpose. Every record ever put onto vinyl they hoped to be a hit and make them money. Therefore every record ever recorded was a want-to-be pop record, including every record played on the northern. rare. modern & cross-over scene. Sorry but soul snobbery does get to me. Yes, you're very much mistaken. The majority of pop records were most likely attempts at hits, but plenty of soul, gospel, funk, jazz, latin, blues, house, hip hop etc, you know - underground black music? - was made for the culture it came from and subsequently an expanded audience which it gained unexpectedly. They aimed to sell to that niche audience of course, but to have a national hit? Come on. so much on here is viewing music history from a northern soul perspective where there's white pop, black pop and people trying to make one or the other. There's a world of music outside of this narrow view, and the best of it was made when having a pop hit wasn't the main priority, and for us soul fans who appreciate these underground styles, this four vandals shit is as soulful as elton john. Actually, that's harsh on elton john, who clearly has had things to say at times. It's pop, and there's nothing wrong with pop, and nor is pop the opposite of soul or anything like that... but it's not good soul or good pop, it's just middle of road, radio 2 friendly pointless noise. It's not the worst music ever made, but unfortunately it's going head to head here with the best music ever made Edited February 12, 2014 by penny
Guest Gogs Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 Yes, you're very much mistaken. The majority of pop records were most likely attempts at hits, but plenty of soul, gospel, funk, jazz, latin etc, you know - underground black music? - was made for the culture it came from, aimed to sell to that niche audience of course, but to have a national hit? Come on. so much on here is viewing music history from a northern soul perspective where there's white pop, black pop and people trying to make one or the other. The point that i am/was trying to make is that all records are brought out with the intention of making some money, i don't think that anybody (for example) pressed 100 records with the intention of only selling 1.
Guest Byrney Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 I don't understand why you can't see why it has anything to do with Northern Soul, it's a Northern Soul record, it ain't a soul record but it is 100% definitely a Northern Soul record...because it sounds like one. Some would say the Jo Boxers Just Got Lucky sounds as much a Northern record as WSOT; doesn't make it Northern though. I just hear a synthesised over dramatised pastiche when I listen to WSOT.
Chalky Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 The point that i am/was trying to make is that all records are brought out with the intention of making some money, i don't think that anybody (for example) pressed 100 records with the intention of only selling 1. Many studios you could walk in a cut a record. Many just wanted the thrill of having a song on vinyl to begin with. Ambition probably came later.
Guest penny Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 The point that i am/was trying to make is that all records are brought out with the intention of making some money, i don't think that anybody (for example) pressed 100 records with the intention of only selling 1. ok sorry. But you didnt say that. A hit has a specific meaning in the music business. If you press 100 records, having a hit is pretty far from your intention. I think it gets lost today how much records were a part of folk culture, often proudly opposed to mainstream culture. of course, northern soul is often that which is drawn more from the commercial output of that culture, but northern soul isnt the only style of music. It isnt the only style of soul
Simsy Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 markw, on 12 Feb 2014 - 1:19 PM, said: cannot for the life of me see what it has to do with either Northern or Soul. Really though? I mean really Mark...? Had Ginger foxed and he's no slouch. Well he's a tremendous slouch, but look that's beside the point. You know the point old stick - polygraph for mark!
Popular Post Steve G Posted February 12, 2014 Popular Post Posted February 12, 2014 (edited) ok sorry. But you didnt say that. A hit has a specific meaning in the music business. If you press 100 records, having a hit is pretty far from your intention. I think it gets lost today how much records were a part of folk culture, often proudly opposed to mainstream culture. of course, northern soul is often that which is drawn more from the commercial output of that culture, but northern soul isnt the only style of music. It isnt the only style of soul Hi Penny, I have interviewed hundreds of recording artists. I have yet to find one who says they made records for a reason other than to try and get a hit record. Even if they pressed 100 it was in the optimistic hope that Stax, Atlantic, scepter, Sound Stage 7, Motown, or a myriad of mid sized labels would pick it up….Yes artists sometimes pressed records for sale at gigs etc….that's true, but ultimately unless it was a special press for a specific event, they all wanted to get a hit…. Edited February 12, 2014 by Steve G 4
Markw Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 Some would say the Jo Boxers Just Got Lucky sounds as much a Northern record as WSOT; doesn't make it Northern though. I just hear a synthesised over dramatised pastiche when I listen to WSOT. Thank you. Somebody understands where I'm coming from.
Markw Posted February 12, 2014 Posted February 12, 2014 Really though? I mean really Mark...? Had Ginger foxed and he's no slouch. Well he's a tremendous slouch, but look that's beside the point. You know the point old stick - polygraph for mark! Well. What can you say? Liking or not liking the record is a matter of individual taste. Failing to spot what was frankly an obvious and not very well disguised musical dud is another matter.
Guest Gogs Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Many studios you could walk in a cut a record. Many just wanted the thrill of having a song on vinyl to begin with. Ambition probably came later. A record for yourself or maybe a couple for friends and family is a different story, i could not use these as an example. What i'm trying to get at is what "Penny" is saying, Lots of these people cut records to make money, maybe not aspiring to be a national "hit" but hoping to sell well locally and if very very lucky get some national airplays. But my main point still stands, nobody (with a few exceptions for "chalky") cut a record to lose money. Whether it is just a local hit or goes national they all hoped to get money or fame. I hate typing, what about discussing this face to face, i'm a nice guy and get on with everybody, but keyboards are so "cold" and i can't always express what i'm trying to say in type.
Guest gaz thomas Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 i must admit having been clearly away at this point in time, and genuinly missed the fuss i dont feel like i need to hear it from your comments
Winsford Soul Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 It's not a soul record but it's like loads of them back in the day it's for dancers. Not my cup of tea personally but each to there own. Steve
Northern Soul Uk Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 All these points beg the question. If this record (WSOT) had been found in a pile of old records in Detroit in a 1 cent box in a back street junk shop, and it was actually nothing to do with Ian Levine & Steve Bernstien, and hadn't been ready made for the NS market to fool people. Would it get played by the big guns as a rare Northern Soul record and be worth lots of money? 1
Guest gaz thomas Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 dont suposse how good the record would be after that stunt on a small scene he has took the piss
Guest gaz thomas Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 but its not brain injury or football........its only a tune
Russ Vickers Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) Removed. Edited February 13, 2014 by Russ Vickers
Steve G Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Removed. What's removed Russ? - You got a copy for sale or auction fella?
Steve G Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Had Ginger foxed and he's no slouch. Hi Ian, Ginger will be the first person to tell you he's a DJ and not a record collector.......He's been turned over more than once I am afraid to say - Johnny Watson another example......DJs are always more likely to fall for these things, another DJ friend we all know has had similar experiences over the years, occasionally buying stuff and thinking it's something it isn't. 1
Guest penny Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Hi Penny, I have interviewed hundreds of recording artists. I have yet to find one who says they made records for a reason other than to try and get a hit record. Even if they pressed 100 it was in the optimistic hope that Stax, Atlantic, scepter, Sound Stage 7, Motown, or a myriad of mid sized labels would pick it up….Yes artists sometimes pressed records for sale at gigs etc….that's true, but ultimately unless it was a special press for a specific event, they all wanted to get a hit…. so you're denying the existence of niche markets and underground culture then? So when graham bond released his intense version of wade in the water in 1965, he thought 'that's it! This is the one to knock tne dave clarke five off the top spot!'. The record was absolutely aimed at the niche mod and jazz market. I agree, no one intends a record to fail, but there is a range of intensions for success and underground culture does, in fact, often make it's art for the sake of making it. and thank god, for if everyone had made music that they thought would be accepted by the masses, there would have been far less experimentation and innovation, and more stuff would sound like that wishy washy four vandals stuff
Russ Vickers Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Removed. No I thought better of it for once Steve.....just couldn't be bothered with the flack I would receive from some quarters...everyone knows the truth anyway & wouldn't be at all surprised if the post was a troll anyway....its all attention seeking. Russ 2
Steve G Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 so you're denying the existence of niche markets and underground culture then? So when graham bond released his intense version of wade in the water in 1965, he thought 'that's it! This is the one to knock tne dave clarke five off the top spot!'. The record was absolutely aimed at the niche mod and jazz market. I agree, no one intends a record to fail, but there is a range of intensions for success and underground culture does, in fact, often make it's art for the sake of making it. and thank god, for if everyone had made music that they thought would be accepted by the masses, there would have been far less experimentation and innovation, and more stuff would sound like that wishy washy four vandals stuff Hi Penny, yes I do disagree....am not talking about Graham Bond, am talking about soul acts in the USA......Yep sure a few did projects for Jesse Jackson's PUSH movement, March of Dimes etc. but by and large people make a record to have a hit......or to make money. 1
Sunnysoul Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) so you're denying the existence of niche markets and underground culture then? So when graham bond released his intense version of wade in the water in 1965, he thought 'that's it! This is the one to knock tne dave clarke five off the top spot!'. The record was absolutely aimed at the niche mod and jazz market. I agree, no one intends a record to fail, but there is a range of intensions for success and underground culture does, in fact, often make it's art for the sake of making it. and thank god, for if everyone had made music that they thought would be accepted by the masses, there would have been far less experimentation and innovation, and more stuff would sound like that wishy washy four vandals stuff Graham Bond might have been a jazz/rhythm and blues purist with a pure heart and pure intentions in terms of his music but it would be naive to think that he made records for any other reason but to sell them ... and sell loads of them ... on the pop charts ... no matter how unrealistic that might have been in his particular case. Edited February 13, 2014 by sunnysoul
Dave Pinch Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 It'll be the latter, I suspect Dave, U2 supposedly being the biggest band in the world at one time. and how they ever managed that ..heaven knows 1
Dave Pinch Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 B.B. did have an American chart pop hit though, on his own - The Thrill Is Gone and what a record it is........he had lots of usa pop hits but that was the biggest
Dave Rimmer Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Hi Penny, yes I do disagree....am not talking about Graham Bond, am talking about soul acts in the USA......Yep sure a few did projects for Jesse Jackson's PUSH movement, March of Dimes etc. but by and large people make a record to have a hit......or to make money. I think you are missing the point Steve. Of course people made records to have a hit, and make money, but the point I was originally making was that not every artist made a records EXPECTING to have a 'POP' hit, which is what the original poster said. There are loads of artists who would never in a million years ever have had a 'pop' hit, they knew that, they still made records though.
Dave Pinch Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Was The Wrong Side Of Town video filmed in Ian Levine's back garden? https://youtu.be/UIlEiPU5PWQ "There's Four Vandals in next door's back garden". "Don't worry Missus, we'll send a car round straight away". i had to listen to it..its worse than i remember it...cringeworthy..........but i liked this one .....also steve brookstein..shoot bullets if ya like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CA4BhDBF7M
Pete S Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Some would say the Jo Boxers Just Got Lucky sounds as much a Northern record as WSOT; doesn't make it Northern though. I just hear a synthesised over dramatised pastiche when I listen to WSOT. It does, though you could have used a better example like Heartache Avenue LOL but the difference is, that was produced commercially in quantities of thousands and got in the charts, Four Vandals ORIGINALLY was known by 2 or 3 copies hence it being included on the NS scene due to it's "rarity"
Mal C Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) Wasn't quick enough, so going back to the start of this thread, "NO"...... Dunno about 'Underground Culture' Penny, nearest we got here in Wendover is a Parish council meeting on a Monday morning, entrance tax, one Pkt Custard creams and any 'Peters and Lee' record... Welcome Home.........to the Wrong Side of Town..... Malcolm Edited February 13, 2014 by Mal C
Soul-slider Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 It does, though you could have used a better example like Heartache Avenue LOL but the difference is, that was produced commercially in quantities of thousands and got in the charts, Four Vandals ORIGINALLY was known by 2 or 3 copies hence it being included on the NS scene due to it's "rarity" I just had to 'youtube' Jo Boxers and you're right, I had to laugh at the video. Great stuff
Tony Smith Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 All these points beg the question. If this record (WSOT) had been found in a pile of old records in Detroit in a 1 cent box in a back street junk shop, and it was actually nothing to do with Ian Levine & Steve Bernstien, and hadn't been ready made for the NS market to fool people. Would it get played by the big guns as a rare Northern Soul record and be worth lots of money? Not for me, a turd is a turd! 2
Guest MBarrett Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Please bear with me here. Sorry, but the thing I dislike most about this track is the other 3 Vandals. For me those backing vocals are cheesy and just don't work with Brookstein's voice. I would have just the instrumentation at the beginning which would give a nice anticipation leading up to the lead vocal coming in. There's no doubting Brookstein has a great voice so I would multitrack it a bit more and have some nice girly backing laid way back in the mix. I think you would end up with a quality 60's Long John Baldry soundalike. That would be just to my taste. Listen to it again with those thoughts and see if I'm not right. Oh and I'd pay someone some decent money to make a decent video. O.K. I'm done. MB
Wiggyflat Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Graham Bond what an artist but even he wanted a hit.Listen to Tammy.Most of the great music is when the managers left the studio with their cigars and the bands were left to be themselves on the b side. 1
Labeat Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 I have just had the displeasure of listening to the Four Vandals, got halfway through and turned it off, come on lads, lets talk quality soul music, how this sort of music can cause a frenzy is beyond me 3
Guest penny Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Graham Bond might have been a jazz/rhythm and blues purist with a pure heart and pure intentions in terms of his music but it would be naive to think that he made records for any other reason but to sell them ... and sell loads of them ... on the pop charts ... no matter how unrealistic that might have been in his particular case. That's crackers. You can hear when graham bond - fuck knows why we're talking about him! - tries to water it down- I'm no authority on him but the 45 'tammy' for instance. Now there you can see that he, probably reluctantly, tried to have a hit, and you can tell it's not him and it's also fairly crap. Then you hear 'wade in the water' where he obviously tried to make hip music that he liked for a very particular audience, who also liked it. This would happen even if that scene was only a few thousand people. Music would still be made if there was no chance of fame or great wealth. This isnt naieve, though apparently a radical concept to the modern, western mind Now, for an artist like that, or herbie hancock, or whoever, they would ideally make music that they thought was good and sell enough to a discerning audience to sustain that process. On occasion, you would hear such artists water their product down in an obvious attempt to have a hit, sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't, sometimes it was still good music, sometimes not and sometimes a whole new genre was created. but to say that every artist, with every song, was trying to have a pop hit is just wrong, if this were true there would be no alternative styles of music. How would explain the left field, bizarre and experimental? I realise these aren't key words for northern fans. Or are you saying that soul is, by definition, a commercial genre - effectively 'black pop? i dont see it that way, some is, some isn't. The roots of the style, and the culture it sprang from, existed and thrived before it was commercialised - in churches and clubs. records are by definition commercial products, true, but music isnt created to fill a record, records were created to record music
Guest penny Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Graham Bond what an artist but even he wanted a hit.Listen to Tammy.Most of the great music is when the managers left the studio with their cigars and the bands were left to be themselves on the b side. Posted same time, I mentioned 'tammy' too. and you're right - most artists would make something other, better, if not restrained by commerce, and often do. to bring us back to the thread - that four vandals sounds like there's definitely a cigar smoking manager in the viscinity - it's insincere and bland and out of place in it's era, a lot of modern retro records suffer from the same thing. It may be soul but it has none, relevent modern soul exists and generally doesnt need to pastiche.
Labeat Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 That's it Penny, get it out your system... both barrels
Tony Smith Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 (edited) Posted same time, I mentioned 'tammy' too. and you're right - most artists would make something other, better, if not restrained by commerce, and often do. to bring us back to the thread - that four vandals sounds like there's definitely a cigar smoking manager in the viscinity - it's insincere and bland and out of place in it's era, a lot of modern retro records suffer from the same thing. It may be soul but it has none, relevent modern soul exists and generally doesnt need to pastiche. Jack Bruce said that Graham Bond chose Tammy as a release, and blamed their lack of commercial success on his choice of material, if fact his whole career was marked by uncompromising choices, sometimes ahead of the curve. Edited February 13, 2014 by Tony Smith
Popular Post Rick Smith Posted February 13, 2014 Popular Post Posted February 13, 2014 I can think of so many great records that rarely get a spin. So why would you play that Vandals crap? 4
Tony Smith Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 I can think of so many great records that rarely get a spin. So why would you play that Vandals crap? Amen to that!
MrsWoodsrules Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 It always reminded me of The Exits Street Lamp, but that one I do like, must be the tempo or something. Re; Jo Boxers, great band, still got all their singles from the early 80's, loved them, also like band called Buzz from that time, they were similar and soulful. He should have named Four Vandals..... Four Candles I reckon. Isn't Exciters Reaching For The Best another of this Levine ilk?
Frankie Crocker Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Yep..........joey delorenzo...utter crap,but as i,ve said so are loads of legit tunes....tommy and the derbys for instance...........so i,m keeping my minty white demo of the four vandals Gordon, bad news I'm afraid, the mint white demos are boots. The original is easily identifiable as it's credited to Ian Levine and the Three Vandals, the run-out has a Cashville Matrix stamp and all existing copies are warped... 1
Steve G Posted February 13, 2014 Posted February 13, 2014 Isn't Exciters Reaching For The Best another of this Levine ilk? Yes I think so…..and James Wells both made in the 70s.
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