Misuse of the "Rare Soul" title

[Woodbutcher]

Seems to be more and more records listed these days with that old 'rare soul 45' title that are so lacking in any soulful content that they are frankly in breach of the 'trades descriptions act' ... 

Yes we all tire of the same old , same old and are always wanting to hear something fresh and a little different , but when it comes in the form of some dreadful white 50's housewife doing a Doris Day impression then what in god's name do sellers hope to gain by describing something as a "Rare Soul 45" ... ???

Please for the love of doG stop trying to pass this sh*te off as soul music , it ain't soulful and never will be , even as an April's Fool gag this latest one would fall flat on it's face ... 

Mini-rant over , time for a coffee methinks ... 

 

 

[Mickey Finn]

Well said that man!  

How dare anyone even contemplate the possibility of matching the greatness of Doris Day 

[Guest Spain pete]

What about cowboy records don't leave them out of the debate l love my Barbara redd ???

[Woodbutcher]

I'm referring to this monstrosity being lauded as a "Rare soul" record ... which it never was , is not now , nor ever will be ... 

https://vocaroo.com/i/s12MuwQwIrmp

[Guest Spain pete]

Any chance of giving us a clue or posting on here

[Woodbutcher]

Just now, Spain pete said:

Any chance of giving us a clue or posting on here

Link to the soundfile in my last post ... don't come back on here with bleeding ears and say you weren't warned though ... 

[Baz1]

What a load of sh.. might av to go back to the chazza shops  could be something after all  lol

[Soul16]

No, that recording has no Northern DNA in it whatsoever.

Barbara Redd, however, certainly does.

[Davenpete]

I think this loss of focus on 'is it good enough?', rather than lack of attendees is the biggest threat to the scene.

Some of the stuff I hear (inc soul and RnB stuff) that gets lauded is pure shite - it absolutely does the boss' head in and is a big reason, compounding Pete's ill health, we ain't going out..

If it's not up to snuff it shouldn't be played, for years and years people have been saying 'what about forgotten oldies' but in practice that seems to mean 'what about fucking obvious stuff coz I as a DJ don't really know my stuff'. On top of that most DJs are spinning for the ego trip and so want to play unknowns, and that becomes so important that they play stuff that wasn't spun before coz it'd get booed off.

I'm by no means really knowledgable, but back when I was DJing I often got people saying 'nice newies spot' when all I was playing was oldies, it just takes a bit of thinking and learning.

Dx

[Guest Spain pete]

Can't open the sound file go on tell us what it is because just lately even some of the half decent stuff is doing my head in ??

[Woodbutcher]

Should just start playing automatically on the page linked to (works fine here still) , if not then I can't really help ... the actual sales post ain't hard to find though ... 

Edited November 20, 2016 by WoodButcher

[Guest]

That track makes me want to put rollers in my hair, put a pink "pinny" on and knock up a nice Victoria sponge cake, while blue birds whistle along on the window sill. It certainly doesn't make me want to get up and give it what for on the dance floor. Cake anyone?

[Shinehead]

Conjures up an image of bygone Sundays , listening to BBC World Service with my mother while she cooked lunch.

Hated that programme.   

[Len]

I quite like it 

See ya next Sat Paul 

Len 

[Professorturnups]

Is that bollocks actually getting played?? Bad enough with Ellie Greenwich, Helen Shapiro etc

Mark C

 

[Woodbutcher]

6 minutes ago, LEN said:

I quite like it 

Len 

And I used to have such respect for you sir ... 

[Kegsy]

1 hour ago, Spain pete said:

Can't open the sound file go on tell us what it is because just lately even some of the half decent stuff is doing my head in ??

Unfortunately I could, not worf it bruv.

[Len]

3 hours ago, DaveNPete said:

I think this loss of focus on 'is it good enough?', rather than lack of attendees is the biggest threat to the scene.

Some of the stuff I hear (inc soul and RnB stuff) that gets lauded is pure shite - it absolutely does the boss' head in and is a big reason, compounding Pete's ill health, we ain't going out..

If it's not up to snuff it shouldn't be played, for years and years people have been saying 'what about forgotten oldies' but in practice that seems to mean 'what about fucking obvious stuff coz I as a DJ don't really know my stuff'. On top of that most DJs are spinning for the ego trip and so want to play unknowns, and that becomes so important that they play stuff that wasn't spun before coz it'd get booed off.

I'm by no means really knowledgable, but back when I was DJing I often got people saying 'nice newies spot' when all I was playing was oldies, it just takes a bit of thinking and learning.

Dx

Lack of attendees goes back to what has been discussed many times (Too many events / people ratio) Although more and more people are coming on to the scene, so some don't do too bad (numbers wise anyway)

I too am sometimes 'puzzled' at what I hear out and about.....Not sure about the ego bit - It used to be banded about that DJs playing tried and tested to a packed dance floor was the ego trip, and now it seems that has been 'flipped on its' head' to be aimed at DJs playing lesser known stuff that may empty the dance floor every so often (which comes with the territory). I wouldn't say looking across an empty dance floor hoping 'to god' that people appreciate the said tune and understand what the DJ was attempting to do is by any means an ego trip (You may have witnessed something a bit different to what I have described though) 

Yup defo loads of oldies that aren't really known to the masses - There may be the odd 'newie' that really stands out, but some are either 'as good', or just pretty good but still worth playing in the interests of um keeping it interesting (When compared to the awsome tunes we have listened to over the years)

All the best,

Len 

P.s - If anyone's going to New Century Soul at Bury town hall next Saturday, pop in to The Kenwood Suite - You'll witness me clearing the dance floor, Bob Hinsley clearing the dance floor, and Simon Ingham positively dying on his *rse - Great night though 

[Len]

11 minutes ago, WoodButcher said:

And I used to have such respect for you sir ... 

Well I'm flattered it was at least once there 

Len 

[Woodbutcher]

Too many great nights at the 'Embankment' to let a little slip of judgement like this to get in the way Len ... 

I grew to love Gene Vito but this is one giant leap too far ... 

[Guest Spain pete]

Suppose over the years we've all been spoilt by some of  the great stuff that's been discovered by a few people hoping to make a quick buck ,some of these have now got use to a certain life style and are now really scraping the barrel  never mind ktf ??

[Phild]

3 hours ago, WoodButcher said:

I'm referring to this monstrosity being lauded as a "Rare soul" record ... which it never was , is not now , nor ever will be ... 

https://vocaroo.com/i/s12MuwQwIrmp

What the feck is that?

[Winsford Soul]

1 hour ago, LEN said:

 

P.s - If anyone's going to New Century Soul at Bury town hall next Saturday, pop in to The Kenwood Suite - You'll witness me clearing the dance floor, Bob Hinsley clearing the dance floor, and Simon Ingham positively dying on his *rse - Great night though 

Len.  And here's me thinking that it was compulsory for all  the Kenwood suite Dj,s to clear the dance floor not just the three of you. 

Steve

[Illusive]

 

[Billy Jo Jim Bob]

Agreed the tune in question above is dreadful and should never have the label 'rare soul', but lets broaden it a bit.

Why is the current trend, particularly on Ebay, for sellers to say 'Rare soul'. Personally I think much of it is down to the 'price guides' that have been on the market for several years. Sellers, particularly in the US who have no real background knowledge of the soul scene, have seen that soul music can and often does realise big bucks for them, so if something is even remotely close to having that 'soul sound' it appears as 'rare soul' hoping that the Wonga follows thereafter. For most its a lack of knowledge but others its a hopeful punt that somebody latches on to it. Recently I went through a few hundred records on Ebay from a certain seller described as rare soul, only to find most were Doris Day on acid or Perry Como in his rocking chair. So having spent 2 hours of my life I wouldn't get back I sent the guy an email message with a full and frank appraisal on his taste in music. He's not responded BTW.

But lets be clear also. Much of what is described as rare soul in the UK, is not rare at all. In fact many records have been available over the years in plentiful quantities, but are still described as rare. Yes of course there are those 45's which have never surfaced in great quantities but probably 70% have. I'm still amazed when one of say the RCA 45's come up and be described as rare, when clearly its not. Confusing rarity with demand is a different thing altogether.

Finally while I'm still in full rant mode, I'm absolutely amazed at some of the prices requested by sellers on this site. I see records that have been 20 quid for the last three decades where someone is asking 100 or more. Just this week I saw a 45 to buy and its been a 20 record for years and 50 record for the last couple of years and by no means is rare. So what price ? Just shy of 200...WTF !!!! This is not uncommon with prices often above the major dealers who have staff, taxes, overheads to pay as well as make a profit.

I'm not getting into the oldies / newies debate, but yes there are many oldies out there which would be new to some on the scene and yes it seems everybody wants to be a DJ, that's why there are so many venues "you can DJ at my event if I can DJ at yours" it seems. There are of course different tastes on the soul scene and an over reliance on oldies. It must be soul destroying - no pun intended - for a DJ trying to play something different and new (ish) to see the floor clear.

FFS I going to have to stop now......breathe Andy breathe....and relax

[Mickey Finn]

Charlie Singleton later went on to become a member of Cameo, and it's easy to hear the connection in this seminal piece of gritty r and b that prefigures the funk to come 

[Illusive]

Surprisingly the lady in question appears to have pedigree, despite this bloody awful 45 !

https://www.vocalgroupharmony.com/4ROWNEW/CommonSense.htm

[Woodbutcher]

Her version of "I love the ground you walk on" is a great ballad , but the tune in question is just dire.

[clevesoulie]

I've had a listen to the sound file...sounds like something the Popcorn folk would go for.

Best,

Mark

[Winsford Soul]

Half the people selling this stuff don't know what Soul is never mind  what Rare Soul is. 

Steve

[Modernsoulsucks]

Reminds me of Gwen Owens.

[Markw]

I don't know what all the excitement and aggravation is about. One person's meat is another's poison and all that. Sure, not to my taste and I can't really see what the appeal is, but as one poster pointed out, would probably go well with the 'Popcorn' afficiandos and the singer does apparently have a soul music background. Probably one for the collectors, rather a 'Northern' tune - whatever that means. But whilst on the subject, how many tunes are holy grails amongst 'Rare Soul' collectors which clearly have little or no actual connection to soul as a genre really?

[billb]

8 hours ago, WoodButcher said:

Link to the soundfile in my last post ... don't come back on here with bleeding ears and say you weren't warned though ... 

too late, you should have warned us before not after, where there's a blame............

 

[Geeselad]

On ‎20‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 10:22, DaveNPete said:

I think this loss of focus on 'is it good enough?', rather than lack of attendees is the biggest threat to the scene.

Some of the stuff I hear (inc soul and RnB stuff) that gets lauded is pure shite - it absolutely does the boss' head in and is a big reason, compounding Pete's ill health, we ain't going out..

If it's not up to snuff it shouldn't be played, for years and years people have been saying 'what about forgotten oldies' but in practice that seems to mean 'what about fucking obvious stuff coz I as a DJ don't really know my stuff'. On top of that most DJs are spinning for the ego trip and so want to play unknowns, and that becomes so important that they play stuff that wasn't spun before coz it'd get booed off.

I'm by no means really knowledgable, but back when I was DJing I often got people saying 'nice newies spot' when all I was playing was oldies, it just takes a bit of thinking and learning.

Dx

abit of distance from the scene reveals the truth dave.

[Guest BabyBoyAndMyLass]

This thread must've somehow passed me by.

So it isn't just me then?

Who thinks that a lot of stuff played nowadays is... Not as good?

[Ezzie Brown]

On 20/11/2016 at 16:13, clevesoulie said:

I've had a listen to the sound file...sounds like something the Popcorn folk would go for.

Best,

Mark

i spent a lot of years buying popcorn ,it has lots of differing styles associated with it, r&b,soul,beat ballads, lounge and exotic instros, all sorts ..............and  buying lots of shite i thought may or could be played around that scene... this is just a middle of the road mid 50s female ,doris day  a perfect comparison, ............. with nothing to  make it interesting or differant....OFF TO CATCH THE DEADWOOD STAGE............bfn

[Paul-s]

On 20 November 2016 at 09:52, WoodButcher said:

I'm referring to this monstrosity being lauded as a "Rare soul" record ... which it never was , is not now , nor ever will be ... 

https://vocaroo.com/i/s12MuwQwIrmp

Do people seriously play this out and call it rare soul?! Im shocked.....

[Davenpete]

On 20 November 2016 at 14:46, illusive said:

 

FFS

[Guest BabyBoyAndMyLass]

I admit to having a bit of a jokey moan at a lot of what is played nowadays, but if it isn't a big Northern oldie then at least they do tend to be an RnB or a Latin thing with a souly beat, they are alright tunes.

These records here I have to say if I was played them at a soul event I would be a bit disappointed. 

[Modernsoulsucks]

1 hour ago, ezzie brown said:

i spent a lot of years buying popcorn ,it has lots of differing styles associated with it, r&b,soul,beat ballads, lounge and exotic instros, all sorts ..............and  buying lots of shite i thought may or could be played around that scene... this is just a middle of the road mid 50s female ,doris day  a perfect comparison, ............. with nothing to  make it interesting or differant....OFF TO CATCH THE DEADWOOD STAGE............bfn

I think Doris is getting some undeserved stick here.

This track IMHO has a typical beat-ballad structure and far better than the Lu Elliott.

 

[Kevinkent]

4 hours ago, paul-s said:

Do people seriously play this out and call it rare soul?! Im shocked.....

No they don't. But they will call it Rare Soul or even a 'unknown rare soul indemander biggie'  (or some such contradictory piffle) in desperation to try and get a sale. eBay has hundreds of them clogging up every search I make and now they're creeping their way onto this site. Very disappointing. 

 

- Kev

[Guest Spain pete]

Al martino, Peggy Lee who next ? Ken bleeding Dodd god help us

[Illusive]

5 hours ago, KevinKent said:

No they don't. But they will call it Rare Soul or even a 'unknown rare soul indemander biggie'  (or some such contradictory piffle) in desperation to try and get a sale. eBay has hundreds of them clogging up every search I make and now they're creeping their way onto this site. Very disappointing. 

 

- Kev

If only this sale had been on eBay then it wouldn't have been quite so bad, but it wasn't, it was on the sales forum on here ?

[Still Diggin]

On 11/20/2016 at 14:52, Andy Mac said:

Agreed the tune in question above is dreadful and should never have the label 'rare soul', but lets broaden it a bit.

Why is the current trend, particularly on Ebay, for sellers to say 'Rare soul'. Personally I think much of it is down to the 'price guides' that have been on the market for several years. Sellers, particularly in the US who have no real background knowledge of the soul scene, have seen that soul music can and often does realise big bucks for them, so if something is even remotely close to having that 'soul sound' it appears as 'rare soul' hoping that the Wonga follows thereafter. For most its a lack of knowledge but others its a hopeful punt that somebody latches on to it. Recently I went through a few hundred records on Ebay from a certain seller described as rare soul, only to find most were Doris Day on acid or Perry Como in his rocking chair. So having spent 2 hours of my life I wouldn't get back I sent the guy an email message with a full and frank appraisal on his taste in music. He's not responded BTW.

But lets be clear also. Much of what is described as rare soul in the UK, is not rare at all. In fact many records have been available over the years in plentiful quantities, but are still described as rare. Yes of course there are those 45's which have never surfaced in great quantities but probably 70% have. I'm still amazed when one of say the RCA 45's come up and be described as rare, when clearly its not. Confusing rarity with demand is a different thing altogether.

Finally while I'm still in full rant mode, I'm absolutely amazed at some of the prices requested by sellers on this site. I see records that have been 20 quid for the last three decades where someone is asking 100 or more. Just this week I saw a 45 to buy and its been a 20 record for years and 50 record for the last couple of years and by no means is rare. So what price ? Just shy of 200...WTF !!!! This is not uncommon with prices often above the major dealers who have staff, taxes, overheads to pay as well as make a profit.

I'm not getting into the oldies / newies debate, but yes there are many oldies out there which would be new to some on the scene and yes it seems everybody wants to be a DJ, that's why there are so many venues "you can DJ at my event if I can DJ at yours" it seems. There are of course different tastes on the soul scene and an over reliance on oldies. It must be soul destroying - no pun intended - for a DJ trying to play something different and new (ish) to see the floor clear.

FFS I going to have to stop now......breathe Andy breathe....and relax

 Could not agree more. however I think picking on Rca was probably not a good example. Infact history has proven there are thousands of titles on stock copies on pretty much all the major logos which have eluded collectors for years, Some would argue this head scratcher was more  prevelent towards the old dimise of Vinyl in the eighties than at any other. So when you find a copy of Candy Bowmen 'Since i found you' Rca 7", give me a shout. Even finding the Grey & hanks version on a 7" is not a 'next day job' unlike 80% of these of these so called £200 northern records.

[Billy Jo Jim Bob]

1 hour ago, still diggin said:

 Could not agree more. however I think picking on Rca was probably not a good example. Infact history has proven there are thousands of titles on stock copies on pretty much all the major logos which have eluded collectors for years, Some would argue this head scratcher was more  prevelent towards the old dimise of Vinyl in the eighties than at any other. So when you find a copy of Candy Bowmen 'Since i found you' Rca 7", give me a shout. Even finding the Grey & hanks version on a 7" is not a 'next day job' unlike 80% of these of these so called £200 northern records.

I think your missing the point a little. RCA was just an example, but you pick the exception. I could easily have said Mercury but of course we could pick out Stormy Wynters . Same for other major labels like WB, Decca etc. I didn't actually specify any particular tune but was thinking of say...Roy Hamilton.

[Still Diggin]

8 minutes ago, Andy Mac said:

I think your missing the point a little. RCA was just an example, but you pick the exception. I could easily have said Mercury but of course we could pick out Stormy Wynters . Same for other major labels like WB, Decca etc. I didn't actually specify any particular tune but was thinking of say...Roy Hamilton.

Yes, Roy hamilton is a good example, however he's way too polished and caberet for me to get worked up about what his vinyl sells for. No I did not miss the point, maybe it would have been better not mentioning any recording lable for the reason I gave, and quoted Belita woods 'magic corner' which has been on ebay all most every other week since time began, yet still goes £50 when trashed.

[Billy Jo Jim Bob]

19 minutes ago, still diggin said:

Yes, Roy hamilton is a good example, however he's way too polished and caberet for me to get worked up about what his vinyl sells for. No I did not miss the point, maybe it would have been better not mentioning any recording lable for the reason I gave, and quoted Belita woods 'magic corner' which has been on ebay all most every other week since time began, yet still goes £50 when trashed.

 

Not sure where your going with this RCA thing as it seems important to you, but FYI I own very few RCA records, certainly none that are Roy Hamilton.

Simple point being made. Some records described as "rare soul" and usually fetch money are NOT rare. There is confusion between rarity and demand. Many of these are found on major labels with large output - but not always. Some ebay sellers use the "rare soul" tag to try to increase value.

Hopefully this clarifies it.

[Mickey Finn]

22 hours ago, Spain pete said:

Al martino, Peggy Lee who next ? Ken bleeding Dodd god help us

You missed Dickie Henderson and Noele Gordon. 

[Guest Spain pete]

On 21/11/2016 at 22:16, tlscapital said:

You didn't know that one ? I think there

3 hours ago, Mickey Finn said:

You missed Dickie Henderson and Noele Gordon. 

Basically your thinking like me anyone who recorded a record with a hook drums and strings back in the sixties or 70's

 

[Shinehead]

On ‎20‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 09:52, WoodButcher said:

I'm referring to this monstrosity being lauded as a "Rare soul" record ... which it never was , is not now , nor ever will be ... 

https://vocaroo.com/i/s12MuwQwIrmp

The price is coming down on this classic , seems as it was listed a bit to high to temp anyone.

 

Edited November 24, 2016 by shinehead