Bootleggers. How low will they go ?!?

[Illusive]

We've lived with them throughout the scenes history, but these bootlegging bar stewards really are beginning to piss me off now.

I can live with the dodgy boots & pressings  that don't pretend to be anything other than what they are.

When there's no attempt to deceive by cloning labels, people know what they're buying and make an informed choice to buy or avoid. 

But this cloning business is becoming crazy. 

I've just come across this disc on eBay and am completely gobsmacked. UK Grapevine reissues are now been booted dfs !!!

The crazy thing is I thought I dropped on a bargain, posted by someone who was trying to offload some old 45's until I saw it was a "buy it now" and then noticed that  more copies were available.!! Thankfully the penny dropped before I clicked "Buy".

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NORTHERN-DOUBLE-SIDER-LESTER-TIPTON-plus-THE-MASQUERADERS-LOW-STARTING-PRICE-/282226564911?hash=item41b6039f2f:g:0OYAAOSwtnpXnMvU

Whatever next ?

Edited November 12, 2016 by illusive
Typo

[Adydj]

Ffs these penple are not right cant be doing with it the scene is done for me

[Guest]

There's people who make a lot of money out of it and some copy's are good and fool many people that are sold as originals

[Guest Spain pete]

It's all about the music just enjoy the music  forget the oneupmanship please just enjoy the music   rant over   ktf. ????

[Illusive]

50 minutes ago, Spain pete said:

It's all about the music just enjoy the music  forget the oneupmanship please just enjoy the music   rant over   ktf. ????

You're entitled to you opinion, but I completely disagree with it. 

I don't give two hoots about oneupmanship. 

I buy vinyl for my pleasure, not to impress anyone else or to have bragging rights. 

I'm not a member of the soul police or have any pretence towards joining "the force".

But I do care about the  integrity and history of black music and collect many genres and  relish the pursuit and capture of original vinyl. Only a true collector would understand that desire, sentiment and obsession.

As for ktf ! Give over.

Buying Counterfiet goods is hardly keeping the faith now is it.

[Adydj]

To  right when i  first went on the scene in the 70s i coulnt afford many originajs we had  to put up with bootlegs we would have loved  real ones but thats all ynu see people trying to make money out of it i dont care about the music the scene its not the same anymore  it just not right 

[Tlscapital]

Hi's and Lo's boots I hate them all ! Look-a-likes reissues do the same for me. Some say they are right because they are legit but it's only copyright to Sony Music most of the time for cheap money. Then they overflow the market... So the effort and the financial involvement for the "manufacturer" is rather worthless IMHO. As their products.

Now in this day and age I'm not shocked to see reissues being bootlegged really. Some are now (it's been a little while though) collecting these old Grapevine reissues 45's. The bootleg by definition is made to fool the buyer and rip-off the originators. So if they were part of (the wrong side) of the scene once, they still can be in (still on the wrong side of) today's scene I should think.

Edited November 12, 2016 by tlscapital

[Adydj]

It's all wrong

[Adydj]

Bootleg grapevine recods unreal

[Guest themroc]

This is why I prefer to buy off Soul Source. Thank god for the Soul Police on this site, I've only been buying soul for 7 years and it's a minefield, but you need some balls to try that shite on here. Yes I may not get a really cheap record but I hate being turned over! 

Thank all you Soul Rozzers 

Edited November 12, 2016 by themroc
Can't spell

[Kegsy]

Since the two lads originally responsible for Grapevine, are still knocking about close to/on the scene, maybe something will be done about this particular example.  

Edited November 12, 2016 by Kegsy

[Guest Spain pete]

Sometimes l wonder whether l am on the right site here, l thought the whole idea of being on here was to discuss soul music  not the rights and wrongs of how someone builds there own   music collection.  for what its worth l get a lot  of mine from you tube and mixcloud that's how l keep the faith

 

 

[Kegsy]

5 minutes ago, Spain pete said:

Sometimes l wonder whether l am on the right site here, l thought the whole idea of being on here was to discuss soul music  not the rights and wrongs of how someone builds there own   music collection.  for what its worth l get a lot  of mine from you tube and mixcloud that's how l keep the faith

 

 

If copyright didn't exist and people could bootleg things willy nilly, meaning writers, artists, musicians, producers etc. didn't get any money, how much soul music do you think would get produced ?.

It's not about how people build their collection.

 

Edited November 12, 2016 by Kegsy

[Illusive]

1 hour ago, Spain pete said:

Sometimes l wonder whether l am on the right site here, l thought the whole idea of being on here was to discuss soul music  not the rights and wrongs of how someone builds there own   music collection.  for what its worth l get a lot  of mine from you tube and mixcloud that's how l keep the faith

 

 

It's a forum to discuss everything related to soul, and the bedrock of the rare soul scene is the 45. 

If you're happy with YouTube, Mixcloud I've no issue with that, I make use of it too, it's convenient and available globally and your not trying to make a quick buck or fool anyone.

But my initial point was and is that these low life bootlegging scumbags are now trying to "counterfeit" 45's with the intention of deceiving unsuspecting punters, or are satisfying the divvies (love that saying) who want to pretend they own the real McCoy when playing out a box of similar such "fakes". This really is a new low though, copying reissues ffs. 

As you appear to be relatively new on here you might not be aware that within the past year there's been a high profile scam running where a number of high value 45's suffered a similar fate with the sole intention of pulling the wool over every bodies eyes. Thankfully a savvy few got wise to this scam and exposed the scoundrels involved. Is there any difference between that and this (money aside) ? No is there feck. £5 or £2k, the outcomes the same. 

The copyright issue is a mute point, as writers and artists don't receive royalties from the "original" discs we buy and sell. Most of em are "used" and 50 years old so that's simply mot going to happen.

These boots clearly won't effect you, nor will you ever understand what it feels like to own an original disc which you've spent good money on and take great pleasure from. Vinyl porn - yeah baby.

Reissues are a completely different matter. Thank God for em. Kent, Soul Junction, Grapevine 2000, Secret Stash have given us, and continue to give us some of the greatest unreleased music I've ever heard, so kudos to Ady Crossdale, Dave Welding, Gary Cape and Mark Bicknell et al. 

 

Edited November 12, 2016 by illusive
Typo

[Twoshoes]

1 hour ago, Spain pete said:

1 hour ago, Spain pete said:

 

 

Sometimes l wonder whether l am on the right site here, l thought the whole idea of being on here was to discuss soul music  not the rights and wrongs of how someone builds there own   music collection.  for what its worth l get a lot  of mine from you tube and mixcloud that's how l keep the faith

 

 

Funny thing this Keep the Faith, , much like Northern Soul is a way of Life, is it really a way of life or just another slogan that allows people to make a bit of cash, on the faith aspect I've never actually considered the  dictionary definition of faith and guess what it throws up an interesting slant with regard to boots etc. Lets disregard the religious meaning though it is too many akin to a religion. The definition is

                  

1.

confidence or trust in a person or thing:

Boots destroy confidence, lead to loss of trust, I use the old Tube prodigiously but I don't think that in any way relates to keeping any sort of faith, surely the only way we can keep the so called "faith" is by getting out there and supporting events not by finding the cheapest option. Just my opinion.

[Dekka]

10 minutes ago, illusive said:

It's a forum to discuss everything related to soul, and the bedrock of the rare soul scene is the 45. 

If you're happy with YouTube, Mixcloud I've no issue with that, I make use of it too, it's convenient and available globally and your not trying to make a quick buck or fool anyone.

But my initial point was and is that these low life bootlegging scumbags are now trying to "counterfeit" 45's with the intention of deceiving unsuspecting punters, or are satisfying the divvies (love that saying) who want to pretend they own the real McCoy when playing out a box of similar such "fakes". This really is a new low though, copying reissues ffs. 

As you appear to be relatively new on here you might not be aware that within the past year there's been a high profile scam running where a number of high value 45's suffered a similar fate with the sole intention of pulling the wool over every bodies eyes. Thankfully a savvy few got wise to this scam and exposed the scoundrels involved. Is there any difference between that and this (money aside) ? No is there feck. £5 or £2k, the outcomes the same. 

The copyright issue is a mute point, as writers and artists don't receive royalties from the "original" discs we buy and sell. Most of em are "used" and 50 years old so that's simply mot going to happen.

These boots clearly won't effect you, nor will you ever understand what it feels like to own an original disc which you've spent good money on and take great pleasure from. Vinyl porn - yeah baby.

Reissues are a completely different matter. Thank God for em. Kent, Soul Junction, Grapevine 2000, Secret Stash have given us, and continue to give us some of the greatest unreleased music I've ever heard, so kudos to Ady Crossdale, Dave Flemming, Gary Cape and Mark Bicknell et al. 

 

Don't forget the Low life bootlegging scumbag DJ's who are creating the market 

[Gold Band]

Still cannot understand the need for a boot of any kind in a collection as the vast majority of soul music can be purchased on CD or streamed on the net if listening pleasure is all that is desired. if people stopped buying the shite & did their homework first then maybe, just maybe a lot of these clone addicts may give it up. I like to venture out to hear OVO as I know that the said DJ's who play OVO have loved cherished & sold their families so that I and other like minded people can Listen & Dance to what a true collector & dedicated lover of soul has to offer his captive audience.

Rant Over

Kirsty (PS tried to avoid Cap Lock)

[Chalky]

1 hour ago, Spain pete said:

Sometimes l wonder whether l am on the right site here, l thought the whole idea of being on here was to discuss soul music  not the rights and wrongs of how someone builds there own   music collection.  for what its worth l get a lot  of mine from you tube and mixcloud that's how l keep the faith

 

 

The site is to discuss soul music and to celebrate those who sang it, produced it arranged it, financed it and hopefully give these artists some credit and acknowledgment, not celebrate and assist bootleggers.  Youtube is where most of these scumbags get their recordings from too, especially the rare ones.

Edited November 12, 2016 by chalky

[Soul16]

As a long standing Northern Soul 'fan' or 'freak' as they used to say in the 1970's, these are some of my basic beliefs:

1. 'Keep The Faith' has had no place in Northern Soul culture since the 1970's. Today, along with the 'clenched fist' logo, it's just a marketing tool to sell naff accessories and general tat (mugs, drinks coasters, car stickers etc) to those who think that it makes them look in some way 'cool' to be into this 'underground' thing that is Northern Soul.

2. It ain't underground any more.

3. It ain't cool (just check out some of those YouTube videos of current soul nights)

4. 'Proper' Northern Soul DJ's only play original vinyl and are worthy of our appreciation and applause for playing their prized gems.

5. DJ's that deliberately buy looky likey 45's to play to the paying public have no respect for the music or for the guys mentioned in point 4.

6. At some soul nights, the paying public don't really care that the DJ's are playing bootlegs, as long as they hear 'The Snake' and necked a few pints, who gives a toss?

7.  DJ's that don't play original vinyl are fine to play it off CD's, or whatever digital format at Birthday parties, Wedding receptions, Christmas parties etc.

8. 'Vintage' bootleg 45's do have a place in some collections - that was the only way most of the working class kids could access the music in those days.

9. People 'making a living' selling illegal bootlegs on eBay are openly breaking the law.

10. I'm a miserable old fart and it's no wonder I can't be arsed to go out anymore...

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

How do you know if you've bought a bootleg? And who and how do they manufacture them? I'm not a collector so I'm a bit "thick" on these issues! And....what is a pressing? I hear all this stuff being chatted about, usually by the guys on the scene, but it's all a bit intriguing for someone who isn't in the know? Can someone provide a "Dummies guide to record collecting"?

[Dobber]

i personally cant enjoy a boot,or even a reissue for that matter,may aswell put a cd on,or youtube! when i stand there gorping at the needle going round,its gotta be the original,and whilst im being snobby,the rarest format aswell...haha

 

[Autumnstoned]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NORTHERN-MONSTER-MICKY-MOONSHINE-NAME-IT-YOU-GOT-IT-CHAPTER-FIVE-YOU-CANT-MEAN-/282238109605?hash=item41b6b3c7a5:g:px8AAOSwMNxXYpPy

Same seller apparently bootlegging a bootleg label.

Looking at his eBay feedback, 2 negatives ( one because record sent in an "iffy bag " ) out of over 466 sales over last 12 months ( 168 in last month ). 

A quick glance shows he's knocking them out mostly at £5.99 each so allowing overheads of at least 50% ? pretty modest profits for the hassle involved. 

 

 

[Slim Jim]

Don't worry people those that get it will always be cool 

Those that copy counterfeit and cash in will always be tits . 

 

 

[Jez Jones]

35 minutes ago, flamingemeralds said:

How do you know if you've bought a bootleg? And who and how do they manufacture them? I'm not a collector so I'm a bit "thick" on these issues! And....what is a pressing? I hear all this stuff being chatted about, usually by the guys on the scene, but it's all a bit intriguing for someone who isn't in the know? Can someone provide a "Dummies guide to record collecting"?

First job if you really really keen...is buy one of the 'guides' John Manships, Tim Browns (insert Guide of your choice)......a bit of light bedtime reading :-)

[Kegsy]

14 minutes ago, autumnstoned said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NORTHERN-MONSTER-MICKY-MOONSHINE-NAME-IT-YOU-GOT-IT-CHAPTER-FIVE-YOU-CANT-MEAN-/282238109605?hash=item41b6b3c7a5:g:px8AAOSwMNxXYpPy

Same seller apparently bootlegging a bootleg label.

Looking at his eBay feedback, 2 negatives ( one because record sent in an "iffy bag " ) out of over 466 sales over last 12 months ( 168 in last month ). 

A quick glance shows he's knocking them out mostly at £5.99 each so allowing overheads of at least 50% ? pretty modest profits for the hassle involved. 

 

 

There are 8 copies of this for sale on discogs too, all from different sellers.

[Woodbutcher]

56 minutes ago, flamingemeralds said:

How do you know if you've bought a bootleg? And who and how do they manufacture them? I'm not a collector so I'm a bit "thick" on these issues! And....what is a pressing? I hear all this stuff being chatted about, usually by the guys on the scene, but it's all a bit intriguing for someone who isn't in the know? Can someone provide a "Dummies guide to record collecting"?

If you can wait until this time next year Mr Manship's ....  "  new "COLLECTING NORTHERN SOUL" book, which will provide exacting matrix markings and label scans for all counterfeits, re-issues of Northern Soul 45s and albums." will be available ... 

[Kegsy]

1 minute ago, WoodButcher said:

If you can wait until this time next year Mr Manship's ....  "  new "COLLECTING NORTHERN SOUL" book, which will provide exacting matrix markings and label scans for all counterfeits, re-issues of Northern Soul 45s and albums." will be available ... 

With all the new look-a-likeys that seem to appear daily it will be as thick as a doorstep.

[Autumnstoned]

18 minutes ago, Kegsy said:

There are 8 copies of this for sale on discogs too, all from different sellers.

Doesn't surprise me. Quick look on eBay  shows that there are non solid centre copies of this title too.

Judging from the blurb I've read on another seller's eBay site, it appears that a business model for selling this stuff involves not actually holding any stock, waiting for someone to buy and at that point, the seller purchases the 45 elsewhere and presumably arranges for his/her supplier to send direct to the purchaser. This Ebayer may not even be involved in pressing up the copies for sale.

[Kegsy]

1 minute ago, autumnstoned said:

Doesn't surprise me. Quick look on eBay  shows that there are non solid centre copies of this title too.

Judging from the blurb I've read on another seller's eBay site, it appears that a business model for selling this stuff involves not actually holding any stock, waiting for someone to buy and at that point, the seller purchases the 45 elsewhere and presumably arranges for his/her supplier to send direct to the purchaser. This Ebayer may not even be involved in pressing up the copies for sale.

True, it says he's in Kettering but "soultime records ltd" has registered office near Norwich.

[Jez Jones]

A very POSH description !!

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Herb-Ward-Strange-Change-ARGO-Licensed-Laser-Matrixed-Repro-Northern-Soul-/152282877032?roken=cUgayN&nma=true&si=AwC68WFgoo5mKtAVGu0mOLw3vu0%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[Guest themroc]

CNow here's a thing. Mr Crossdale plays a tune Etta James - Can't Shake It. I asks the ol boy if it's available on 45? "No"says he "but might come out on Chess box set" all innocent like,like he do. Low n behold out comes boot on Soul wax.  I buy 2 copies for me n my girl who loves Etta with a passion. 2 months latter out comes box set with said tunage for £60. I feel so dirty that I buy the box set to have the first 45 press of the tune. Now for me it's gotta be on 7 and regrets I've got a few (and now 3 copies) but my point is we all obsess and make choices, get it right get it wrong, it's a learning curve but fraudsters are scum that steal our hard earn cash. Oh!  And the compiler of the box set? why our own Mr Crossdale. Bastard played me like a second hand kazoo ?

PS Anyone need a boot of Etta James- Can't Stand It £5 Inc postage just to lift the curse.

[Chris L]

13 hours ago, becker154 said:

There's people who make a lot of money out of it and some copy's are good and fool many people that are sold as originals

How about this ? Ouch !!

https://www.popsike.com/Patti-the-Emblems-Im-Gonna-Love-You-A-Long-Long-TimeMixed-Up-Shook-Up-Girl/141702775095.html

Or this at about 7% of the price 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PATTI-THE-EMBLEMS-IM-GONNA-LOVE-YOU-A-LONG-LONG-TIME-MIXED-UP-SHOOK-UP-GIRL-/371770084919?hash=item568f394e37:g:BHgAAOSwuzRXdNkT

[Illusive]

45 minutes ago, jez jones said:

A very POSH description !!

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Herb-Ward-Strange-Change-ARGO-Licensed-Laser-Matrixed-Repro-Northern-Soul-/152282877032?roken=cUgayN&nma=true&si=AwC68WFgoo5mKtAVGu0mOLw3vu0%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Oh the feckin' irony of it. 

Below his sales patter the seller has posted this little blurb (check the bit in the brackets) 

PLEASE DO NOT PAY UNTIL OFFICIAL INVOICE IS RECEIVED from SOULTIME RECORDS LTD. ANY PAYMENT METHOD OTHER THAN PAYPAL PREFERRED (due to recent high incidence of fraudulent transactions).

[Woodbutcher]

44 minutes ago, themroc said:

CNow here's a thing. Mr Crossdale plays a tune Etta James - Can't Shake It. I asks the ol boy if it's available on 45? "No"says he "but might come out on Chess box set" all innocent like,like he do. Low n behold out comes boot on Soul wax.  I buy 2 copies for me n my girl who loves Etta with a passion. 2 months latter out comes box set with said tunage for £60. I feel so dirty that I buy the box set to have the first 45 press of the tune. Now for me it's gotta be on 7 and regrets I've got a few (and now 3 copies) but my point is we all obsess and make choices, get it right get it wrong, it's a learning curve but fraudsters are scum that steal our hard earn cash. Oh!  And the compiler of the box set? why our own Mr Crossdale. Bastard played me like a second hand kazoo ?

PS Anyone need a boot of Etta James- Can't Stand It £5 Inc postage just to lift the curse.

Firstly ... the name is Croasdell ... !

Secondly ... Ady told you it would be out on a legit Chess box set yet you jumped in and bought the bootleg anyway , how the f*ck does that equate to someone 'playing you' ... ???

[Ady Croasdell]

15 minutes ago, WoodButcher said:

Firstly ... the name is Croasdell ... !

Secondly ... Ady told you it would be out on a legit Chess box set yet you jumped in and bought the bootleg anyway , how the f*ck does that equate to someone 'playing you' ... ???

Don't worry, he's being tongue in cheek; daft sod!

[Guest BabyBoyAndMyLass]

2 hours ago, flamingemeralds said:

How do you know if you've bought a bootleg? And who and how do they manufacture them? I'm not a collector so I'm a bit "thick" on these issues! And....what is a pressing? I hear all this stuff being chatted about, usually by the guys on the scene, but it's all a bit intriguing for someone who isn't in the know? Can someone provide a "Dummies guide to record collecting"?

I'm the same, been buying cheapies and having records given to me since the 8ts, know nothing about them. Learning on here though, do a lot of reading up here about records. As it turns out I have a box of records that is brimming with big-ticket records, some are the major biggies! Kind of the opposite problem to what's being discussed, my 'box of boots' as I called it is actually the stuff of a very serious OVO Northern Oldies DJ set! When I think about the times I tried to sell 'em off I get cold sweats, got a lot of bum advice from 'experts' who knew nothing, luckily they didn't know enough to have bought the records off me when I wanted peanuts for them to pay off bills!

[Woodbutcher]

Sorry Ady ,

I wish more folk would make use of the 'smiley' selection now and again when trying to be clever or tongue in cheek , saves the rest of us thinking they're just being arse'oles ... 

[Trev Thomas]

1 hour ago, jez jones said:

A very POSH description !!

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Herb-Ward-Strange-Change-ARGO-Licensed-Laser-Matrixed-Repro-Northern-Soul-/152282877032?roken=cUgayN&nma=true&si=AwC68WFgoo5mKtAVGu0mOLw3vu0%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

manufactured by CHEST productions corp

Edited November 12, 2016 by trev thomas

[Guest]

Nice post Babyboyandmylass. So, if I went to a record dealers section at say, The Kings Hall and bought a piece of vinyl, what do I look for to suspect its a bootleg? Serial number or something? And what is a pressing and how on earth do bootleggers get fakes manufactured? Is all this covered in the Manship Guide?

[Peter99]

7 minutes ago, flamingemeralds said:

Nice post Babyboyandmylass. So, if I went to a record dealers section at say, The Kings Hall and bought a piece of vinyl, what do I look for to suspect its a bootleg? Serial number or something? And what is a pressing and how on earth do bootleggers get fakes manufactured? Is all this covered in the Manship Guide?

I think you're better of looking at some old posts on here - that's a pretty big question you just asked! 

[Ady Croasdell]

25 minutes ago, WoodButcher said:

Sorry Ady ,

I wish more folk would make use of the 'smiley' selection now and again when trying to be clever or tongue in cheek , saves the rest of us thinking they're just being arse'oles ... 

No need to be sorry, I wasn't sure till I realised who it was 

[Soul16]

13 minutes ago, flamingemeralds said:

Nice post Babyboyandmylass. So, if I went to a record dealers section at say, The Kings Hall and bought a piece of vinyl, what do I look for to suspect its a bootleg? Serial number or something? And what is a pressing and how on earth do bootleggers get fakes manufactured? Is all this covered in the Manship Guide?

An honest dealer that has a reputation to protect will tell you if a 45 is a bootleg/pressing or reissue - all you have to do is ask if you are unsure. The asking price would also be an indicator.

The old adage 'If it looks too good to be true, it probably is' still applies.

Buy from reputable sources.

 

Edited November 12, 2016 by Soul16

[Ady Croasdell]

11 minutes ago, flamingemeralds said:

Nice post Babyboyandmylass. So, if I went to a record dealers section at say, The Kings Hall and bought a piece of vinyl, what do I look for to suspect its a bootleg? Serial number or something? And what is a pressing and how on earth do bootleggers get fakes manufactured? Is all this covered in the Manship Guide?

Just ask a serious looking old git. It's not often we get chatted up and we can talk about vinyl for England 

[Guest BabyBoyAndMyLass]

15 minutes ago, flamingemeralds said:

Nice post Babyboyandmylass. So, if I went to a record dealers section at say, The Kings Hall and bought a piece of vinyl, what do I look for to suspect its a bootleg? Serial number or something? And what is a pressing and how on earth do bootleggers get fakes manufactured? Is all this covered in the Manship Guide?

Hahaha nice response, like I said, no use asking me, I'm only finding out by researching on 'ere, I have never even seen a Manships! Here is a really good resource actually, there's a lot of lifelong collectors here that really know their stuff and have been talking about it here for decades, because I've got records already I just search for info on the records I want to find out about in the search box, it's different if you're thinking of buying a record. But yes these things are covered in Manships', which itself is expensive, and regularly updated so you have to keep buying 'em!

Some events will have a policy of dealers only selling quality gear, some will allow folks selling bootlegs and stuff depends on the venue, think if you buy from reputable dealers like Derek Meade and others they will steer you right.

I'm not the right one to ask though!

[Guest BabyBoyAndMyLass]

11 minutes ago, ady croasdell said:

Just ask a serious looking old git. It's not often we get chatted up.........................................

Can't believe that Ady!

[Woodbutcher]

Just beware of the "wigs 'n' wheelchairs" record stall ... 

[Soul16]

40 minutes ago, BabyBoyAndMyLass said:

 

Some events will have a policy of dealers only selling quality gear

That's a different topic altogether! 

[Guest themroc]

1 hour ago, ady croasdell said:

Don't worry, he's being tongue in cheek; daft sod!

Thanks never mean to willing upset people???Social Turrets my ol Lady calls it????? can't wait for next months function????

[Guest themroc]

See its not a smiling face my phone just puts ???? Oh my giddy aunt I need a lie down.

[Ady Croasdell]

Your phone doesn't understand you

12 minutes ago, themroc said:

See its not a smiling face my phone just puts ???? Oh my giddy aunt I need a lie down.

r