Acetate Expert

[Soulfulsolutions]

I have an acetate with an unissued Motown track on it.  It came from someone who has kept it in his personal collection since the late 70's who picked it up from Cappy (Detroit Record Store owner) at a Record Fair.  I am trying to establish its provenance.

To do this I think I need to tap into a Motown acetate expert or near as.  Before you direct me to Robb K I have already spoken to Robb.  He has been unvelievably helpful, and honest.  We have established its propbably not a Motown acetate from file.  Whilst I accept Robb's knowledge and assessment, there is still a huge question about the acetates origins and purpose.

What I do know is the track involved has appeared on 2 compilation LPs, one that Robb was involved in "From the Vaults" in 1979, the other by the BBC - Radioplay LP and not for public release, at least the first used Master Tape according to Robb.  I don't understand the CD production process, I assume they could be recorded from acetate, tapes or vinyl sources. 

I'm left with a metal acetate with the Spinners - What more can a boy ask for - recorded in 66, and a history that predates 77, but apparently only discovered in 79 when the comp LP was released.  

Can anyone help or point me in th right direction.

Cheers, Lee

Edited September 24, 2016 by SoulfulSolutions

[Woodbutcher]

Can't help with the details , but the track is dear to my heart as it was the first tune I heard as I walked through the doors of the Wirrina at my first all-nighter  , I will follow this with interest ... 

[Soulfulsolutions]

That's what it's all about, sharing a bit of knowledge

[Robbk]

I'll be curious to find out who made it and why.  I suspect that Keith Hughes might be able to enlighten us.

[Soulfulsolutions]

Robb is Keith Hughes on here?  Do you have a contact?

The previous owner has confirmed there was never a label on the acetate, which is what helped me, painfully, conclude it wasn't from the Motown files. 

Remember, this has a track on the flip which has been scratched out and marked DISCARD.  On the surface of the centre as I had explained to you there is some embossed text, which I have been able to make out in the right light.  I am guessing that the writing was the template text they wanted on a printed label.I can work out that it is an unreleased Satintones track.  Also there were 4 individual acetates bought from Cappy on that day in 77, each had a side marked DISCARD.  

I am trying to work why these were in existence, my thoughts are, and its bolstered by the embossed text, which on one side says "Unissued Motown", on the same position on the other side it says "Motown Logo".  It's as if its there's an intent to produce 45's, EP or LP with unissued Motown on, presumably for public sale.  It seems also that there was a selection process going on with at least 2 side from 8 known that were marked DISCARD. 

This unissued material did come to fruition of course but you confirmed master tapes were used, not an acetate.  So why this acetate and if there's a mention of Motown Logo on the embossed text could this be a sign of approval from Motown or a reminder of copyright? I presume any use of Motown material would need their sign off.

It's all guess work, hence bringing it to the attention of others on here to fill in any blanks.           

Regards, Lee

 

[Amsterdam Russ]

Can you post up a scan of the acetate?

[Soulfulsolutions]

   What more could a boy ask for.mp3

[Guest johnny hart]

The "Go to Guy" on this must be Keith at Don't forget the Motor city. Keith Id's the track as Feb 66 ,with only mention of LPs as issues.where an acetate exists it is itemised,in this case none is mentioned . Keith also compiled the Ace Kent CD ,Truly yours which contains this and many killer unreleased ,Bristol/Fuqua tunes. I have never encountered Motown 60s acetatee looking like yours .What I have seen are US unnoficial issues on the Royal lable with Jnr Walker,Four Tops issues looking similar also there is a plethora of Test presses /white lable demos' floating about currently with all sorts of "Supposed Legit Histories" by various Chuckle Brother characters! As amotown collector I would not put a high price on it till legitamcy can be verified, £20 ,Best of luck LOL Johnny.

[Mike]

@keithhughes

yep keith h is a member

 have pm'd him ref this  topic but the profile status shouts via the above link  does have his email etc 

 

[Soulfulsolutions]

26 minutes ago, mike said:

@keithhughes

yep keith h is a member

 have pm'd him ref this  topic but the profile status shouts via the above link  does have his email etc 

 

Mike, thank for this, who knows what it might chuck up.  Lee

[Soulfulsolutions]

51 minutes ago, conchitta said:

The "Go to Guy" on this must be Keith at Don't forget the Motor city. Keith Id's the track as Feb 66 ,with only mention of LPs as issues.where an acetate exists it is itemised,in this case none is mentioned . Keith also compiled the Ace Kent CD ,Truly yours which contains this and many killer unreleased ,Bristol/Fuqua tunes. I have never encountered Motown 60s acetatee looking like yours .What I have seen are US unnoficial issues on the Royal lable with Jnr Walker,Four Tops issues looking similar also there is a plethora of Test presses /white lable demos' floating about currently with all sorts of "Supposed Legit Histories" by various Chuckle Brother characters! As amotown collector I would not put a high price on it till legitamcy can be verified, £20 ,Best of luck LOL Johnny.

I think I'd seen those acetate listings and noted no reference to this group and track, part of why I'm interested really. 

If an acetate was referenced or even better an image was available at least I'd have something to compare it to, that said I am not in any way suggesting this is Jobete, Robb's been very clear on what defines Jobete, but the embossed text, as hard as is it is to make out, is a professional job and it leads me to think it was being used as the forerunner in a project not as a keepsake.

I've seen plenty of those test presses and white label demos with other artists and titles being offered up, but I can't remember or find any reference to this group and title anywhere in one of those formats.

[Chalky]

2 hours ago, conchitta said:

The "Go to Guy" on this must be Keith at Don't forget the Motor city. Keith Id's the track as Feb 66 ,with only mention of LPs as issues.where an acetate exists it is itemised,in this case none is mentioned . Keith also compiled the Ace Kent CD ,Truly yours which contains this and many killer unreleased ,Bristol/Fuqua tunes. I have never encountered Motown 60s acetatee looking like yours .What I have seen are US unnoficial issues on the Royal lable with Jnr Walker,Four Tops issues looking similar also there is a plethora of Test presses /white lable demos' floating about currently with all sorts of "Supposed Legit Histories" by various Chuckle Brother characters! As amotown collector I would not put a high price on it till legitamcy can be verified, £20 ,Best of luck LOL Johnny.

If there is no acetate in Motown's files, i.e. those pinched is there a written record of its existence? If not then Keith can't itemise on the DFTMC site.  I know of acetates that do exist and other tracks but they weren't on the site.

 

Edited September 25, 2016 by chalky

[Chalky]

Looking at the scan they don't look real to me to begin with, I have never seen a Motown acetate without a label or two holes in the label area on a 7inch disc.

Acetates not a strong point of mine but I've talked to someone whop it is and was told Motown never wrote discard on the disc only recoat.  Motown file copies were 10" not 7" is my understanding, 7" were used by Jobete for publishers review.

It looks extremely dodgy, not just to me but to others as well.

What is on the flip btw?

Edited September 25, 2016 by chalky

[Soulfulsolutions]

That's the point though, its been established its not a Motown / Jobete acetate from file or for publishers! 

What it is, is a metal acetate that plays the track described, and all I'm trying to do is learn more about it, nothing dodgy about that LOL

I'm not sure why the 2nd hole is cut in, maybe they are used to lock the disc down when pressing the track.  I guess we don't see these holes as there is normally a label covering them up.

Flip is "Satintones - My beloved" but scratched out. 

[Robbk]

4 hours ago, conchitta said:

The "Go to Guy" on this must be Keith at Don't forget the Motor city. Keith Id's the track as Feb 66 ,with only mention of LPs as issues.where an acetate exists it is itemised,in this case none is mentioned . Keith also compiled the Ace Kent CD ,Truly yours which contains this and many killer unreleased ,Bristol/Fuqua tunes. I have never encountered Motown 60s acetatee looking like yours .What I have seen are US unnoficial issues on the Royal lable with Jnr Walker,Four Tops issues looking similar also there is a plethora of Test presses /white lable demos' floating about currently with all sorts of "Supposed Legit Histories" by various Chuckle Brother characters! As a motown collector I would not put a high price on it till legitamcy can be verified, £20 ,Best of luck LOL Johnny.

The same is true for me.  I've never seen any Motown acetates from the 1960s that look like that.  I have to assume that it was a '70s project.  And, ours was in-house, so it didn't need an approval acknowledgement requiring a logo placed on the acetate.  I've also never seen a Motown acetate with one side scratched out.  Also, that particular disc looks way too "modern" to have been used for recording a Satintones' song near the time of its release.  Furthermore, The Satintones' song had been released, so, it couldn't have been part of our "From The Vaults" project, as we hadn't chosen that for our LPs.  And it couldn't have peen part of The 1982 or 1984 Motown, in-house unissued LP projects, as The Spinners' song had already been issued in 1979.  So, clearly it is extremely unlikely that it was a Motown acetate.

[Chalky]

2 hours ago, SoulfulSolutions said:

That's the point though, its been established its not a Motown / Jobete acetate from file or for publishers! 

What it is, is a metal acetate that plays the track described, and all I'm trying to do is learn more about it, nothing dodgy about that LOL

I'm not sure why the 2nd hole is cut in, maybe they are used to lock the disc down when pressing the track.  I guess we don't see these holes as there is normally a label covering them up.

Flip is "Satintones - My beloved" but scratched out. 

the second hole is for the lathe I guess to stop the disc moving so it ensures it doesn't cut off centre.  

I didn't say what you was doing was dodgy, just the disc 

I doubt the acetate is genuine, it is probably a custom job akin to a uk emidisc, even more so considering what is on the flip

Edited September 25, 2016 by chalky

[Soulfulsolutions]

44 minutes ago, chalky said:

the second hole is for the lathe I guess to stop the disc moving so it ensures it doesn't cut off centre.  

I didn't say what you was doing was dodgy, just the disc 

I doubt the acetate is genuine, it is probably a custom job akin to a uk emidisc, even more so considering what is on the flip

I know mate  

That's the trouble though, I'll probably never get to the bottom of it, but that's why the other topic about Cappy is going, he may have more to add.

ATB, Lee 

[Robbk]

5 hours ago, chalky said:

If there is no acetate in Motown's files, i.e. those pinched is there a written record of its existence? If not then Keith can't itemise on the DFTMC site.  I know of acetates that do exist and other tracks but they weren't on the site.

 

If I remember correctly, we DID have a Jobete Music acetate of that song, a 7-incher, with cream-coloured label, with only the song title typed on in red, and no artist listed.  But, the master tape was used to record it for our LP.  I never saw a Motown Record Corp. acetate of it, nor did I ever see a vinyl recording studio demo record of it.