Will Things Be Better When We Die

[Dave Thorley]

Was chatting to Colin Curtis at the weekend. In the conversation he said "things will be much better when our generation pass on".

We had been discussing the same old, same old about acceptance of modern releases, going to europe and playing 'The whole of soul' to a much younger crowd and them accepting it all. Is it the 'we know best', 'the definition of xxxx is' that is holding back the whole development of the rare soul scene.

Sorry Colin to draw you in from the sidelines

Edited October 17, 2006 by Dave Thorley

[Sutty]

As far as I see it, briefly, outside the uk there are less factions defined by historical events, and more younger people who are hearing the music from a new perspective, but still having respect for those that have been before. Don't anyone get fooled into thinking our non-British cousins are any less informed or have any less taste than we do, nor that they need guiding in any direction. If anything, we in the UK could take quite a lot of leaves out of their book. and Colin needs to get his hair cut

[Rednose]

when we die so will northern soul just like rock and roll

[Dave Thorley]

As far as I see it, briefly, outside the uk there are less factions defined by historical events, and more younger people who are hearing the music from a new perspective, but still having respect for those that have been before. Don't anyone get fooled into thinking our non-British cousins are any less informed or have any less taste than we do, nor that they need guiding in any direction. If anything, we in the UK could take quite a lot of leaves out of their book. and Colin needs to get his hair cut

Spot on. But I think he looks great with long hair

[Sutty]

when we die so will northern soul just like rock and roll

i think you're wrong, northern soul has already lasted 40 years, rock and roll died well before the mid 90's. there are more young people into northern soul than rock and roll. I didn't think we were talking about northern soul anyway, were we? isn't that one of the UK subsections?

Spot on. But I think he looks great with long hair

that's because you need to get your hair cut as well Dave

[Dave Thorley]

i think you're wrong, northern soul has already lasted 40 years, rock and roll died well before the mid 90's. there are more young people into northern soul than rock and roll. I didn't think we were talking about northern soul anyway, were we? isn't that one of the UK subsections?

that's because you need to get your hair cut as well Dave

I have and did, it's not been this short in years. Gone is the alice band, the pony tail, this is me looking normal

[Guest]

Was chatting to Colin Curtis at the weekend. In the conversation he said "things will be much better when our generation pass on".

We had been discussing the same old, same old about acceptance of modern releases, going to europe and playing 'The whole of soul' to a much younger crowd and them accepting it all. Is it the 'we know best', 'the definition of xxxx is' that is holding back the whole development of the rare soul scene.

Sorry Colin to draw you in from the sidelines

I`ll go top myself right now then,save em` the long wait,not ,i think its wrong to compare the European N/Soul scene,with the scene here,both diffrent as it should be,for a start 99% of the Europeans dont get off there faces all weekend,and i`m the 1% when i`m there,they`ve both got diffrent starting points for a start,cant see there parents ever wanting to go listen to N/Soul,cause they havent got there old N/Soul records in the attic,so will allways be younger,but in 30years time maybe the same as here,all max`d out,at each other throats,hope not,were here because we where brought up on N/Soul,it was part of our youth,there into it for totaly diffrent reasons,the internet being one of em`,cheap travel the other,and cause soul music moves em`,more than Eurotrash,whats killing our scene is the same thing,cheap travel to other countrys,cheaper to go to a German nighter than go to Lifeline,and easier,,,,,,,,,,and no speed camaras .

[arnie j]

when we die so will northern soul just like rock and roll

thats rubbish ! rare soul will never die, the tunes and historical value are too precious to be ignored, and people will always collect rare soul on vinyl,cd etc. just my opinion of course

[Russ Vickers]

we had been discussing the same old, same old about acceptance of modern releases, going to europe and playing 'The whole of soul' to a much younger crowd and them accepting it all. Is it the 'we know best', 'the definition of xxxx is' that is holding back the whole development of the rare soul scene.

Sorry Colin to draw you in from the sidelines

[Russ Vickers]

As far as I see it, briefly, outside the uk there are less factions defined by historical events, and more younger people who are hearing the music from a new perspective, but still having respect for those that have been before. Don't anyone get fooled into thinking our non-British cousins are any less informed or have any less taste than we do, nor that they need guiding in any direction. If anything, we in the UK could take quite a lot of leaves out of their book. and Colin needs to get his hair cut

Ditto .

Like I have said many times before the whole thing in one room on one dancefloor, if the music has that certain X factor then the dancers/scene will go with it, regardless of year of release etc, sensible DJ's playing great danceable soul music, just like it used to be, just how it always will be for some of us, sure they'll be some people bemoaning the Northern/Modern & the oldies/newies shit, but havnt they always.......................... big venue, promoter with some huge balls & greaat DJ's, playing great danceable soul music to an excepting crowd..................

Here's hoping that in my life time there will be another Torch, Mecca, Wigan, Stafford, Yate etc, etc a venue that will unite the whole scene under one roof.

There could even be chartered planes picking up across Europe .

Russ

[Tabs]

'Will Things Be Better When We Die'

Not for me it won't

In all seriousness there are merits for all the arguments I've seen.

However in the UK it is very apparent that without 'new blood' the scene will eventually disappear.

In the last 5 months I've been to Cleethorpes, Stoke, Northampton, Bisley, Luton, Northampton, Wellingborough and more and the average age is probably 40 - 45.

Its inevitable that as time progresses there will be less people around.

I know when I was ( a lot ) younger I would never want to go to a place where the people were the same age as my parents!!

Comments about handbaggers etc will only further put newcomers off.

Unless attitudes change and there is an acceptance of all types of soul then certainly here in the UK I cannot see the scene surviving.

Essentially it is still an underground scene with only a minority appeal.

[Drew3]

Ditto .

Like I have said many times before the whole thing in one room on one dancefloor, if the music has that certain X factor then the dancers/scene will go with it, regardless of year of release etc, sensible DJ's playing great danceable soul music, just like it used to be, just how it always will be for some of us, sure they'll be some people bemoaning the Northern/Modern & the oldies/newies shit, but havnt they always.......................... big venue, promoter with some huge balls & greaat DJ's, playing great danceable soul music to an excepting crowd..................

Here's hoping that in my life time there will be another Torch, Mecca, Wigan, Stafford, Yate etc, etc a venue that will unite the whole scene under one roof.

There could even be chartered planes picking up across Europe .

Russ

Here's hoping that in my life..........................(don't know how to isolate a section of a post! Anyone advise?)

If that happens Russ none of us in our 30's, 40's and 50's will be invited, so where will that leave us?

KTF.

Drew.

[Cunnie]

'Will Things Be Better When We Die'

Not for me it won't

In all seriousness there are merits for all the arguments I've seen.

However in the UK it is very apparent that without 'new blood' the scene will eventually disappear.

In the last 5 months I've been to Cleethorpes, Stoke, Northampton, Bisley, Luton, Northampton, Wellingborough and more and the average age is probably 40 - 45.

Its inevitable that as time progresses there will be less people around.

I know when I was ( a lot ) younger I would never want to go to a place where the people were the same age as my parents!!

Comments about handbaggers etc will only further put newcomers off.

Unless attitudes change and there is an acceptance of all types of soul then certainly here in the UK I cannot see the scene surviving.

Essentially it is still an underground scene with only a minority appeal.

Here Here, top post Tabs

Been saying exactly the same for years.

Think it's too late now for the UK Northern scene & the UK Modern scene's fast heading the same way.

Noticed at last weekends Prestatyn weekender that most of the younger crowd were in the commercial soul room & the big difference between that room & the other rooms was the smiles on peoples faces as folks in the other rooms seemed to take it all far too seriously.

You only had to see the reaction of Sean Chapman when he was DJ'ing in the commercial room to prove this point.

Was talking to Sean on Monday morning & he said it was his most enjoyable spot ever.

I think part of the problem is the words Northern & Modern & the refusal of a lot of the punters on each scene to accept each other.

Classic examples of this are the way some modern fans look down on northern punters & call them silly names like normans & dinosaurs & the way some northern punters look down on modern fans with silly comments like disco & nightclub music.

At the end of the day we're all fans of Soul music & the sooner both sides realise that the better for the good of the UK soul scene in general.

[Dave]

Was chatting to Colin Curtis at the weekend. In the conversation he said "things will be much better when our generation pass on".

We had been discussing the same old, same old about acceptance of modern releases, going to europe and playing 'The whole of soul' to a much younger crowd and them accepting it all. Is it the 'we know best', 'the definition of xxxx is' that is holding back the whole development of the rare soul scene.

Too right, it is! It's certainly holding back potential new blood!

That younger crowd go to smart venues which are not populated by fancy-dress clothed people, bathed in unhealthy nostalgia about places that no longer exist. They don't have to listen to jaundiced opinions on what should and should not be played; they don't have to hear about "etiquette" nor get scowled at for not observing it ; they just go and enjoy the music!

Bit of a contrast to the northern scene over here, eh?

[Guest Carl Dixon]

I equate soul to wine! For example Northern Soul I now see as a fine wine still maturing and evolving. Not getting better or worse but the nuisances once associated with the 1974 vintage have developed over the years. The look, smell and taste have matured and become an established part of the genre, like a Bordeaux or Burgundy. There is still shelf life, but the shelf is not as big as it was in the day, but the price has gone up along with rarity. Remember, a Burgundy wine structure was established hundreds of years before the Artisans of Bordeaux knew what a grape was, yet they live together in the fine wine section in any shop. The snobbery of the Bordeaux wine makers has created problems for French wine by not changing some of their techniques to compete in the market place.

I feel because we are sandwiched between the future and the past not only with style and orchestration, but the technology too, we will see a sway to and fro from the quality soul recording from the 1960' and 70's. For example, why was a record only about 3 mins long? The technology. What did 12" records do to the clubs? Cut the number of songs you heard down by about 50% and made me feel older! I also agree about going to a gig where your parents go. It would be rare for younger people to follow in the same footsteps. And that is the problem; they are expected to follow when now they should be leading. The baton needs to be handed on at some stage of the race, but when I do not know. I still think a different potential will develop with this music and we have certainly not seen the end of it by a long chalk. However ask your self this for fun only - If you were to buy a bottle of wine today would it be old world or new world? If you answer the old world I can equate that to traditional values, respect and a 45rpm record! If you answer the latter, you have opted for a new world Chardonnay with 'essence of oak' put in it so unsuspecting British people think it is 'oaked' in a barrel , CD's and MP3's! If you are confused, you have dual standards, unlike me, I am not confused, but have dual standards!!

Edited October 18, 2006 by Carl Dixon

[Sutty]

"they are expected to follow when now they should be leading"

yes. they won't on the northern scene as the price of original releases is a joke, even common records now demand silly money for how rare they are. outside the northern scene, there should be great hope that young people can come through as they are not restricted by a format handed down and enforced by those with vested (financial) interests, so they can obtain the music they want to play out without getting into major debt for their hobby/passion.

just putting my tin hat on

[Winnie :-)]

Too right, it is! It's certainly holding back potential new blood!

That younger crowd go to smart venues which are not populated by fancy-dress clothed people, bathed in unhealthy nostalgia about places that no longer exist. They don't have to listen to jaundiced opinions on what should and should not be played; they don't have to hear about "etiquette" nor get scowled at for not observing it ; they just go and enjoy the music!

Bit of a contrast to the northern scene over here, eh?

=============

I take it they don't read SS then?

[paultp]

When I was involved in running These Old Shoes in London, one of the great things about it was the diversity of people that would attend and the diversity of age groups. We would get the (cough) older soulies, some younger ones from the mod scene, people visiting from overseas who were generally under 30 and quite often people just turning up to see what Northern Soul was. This last group often contained club DJ's looking for new sounds.

This was pretty much the experience in other clubs in London at the same time, the best example being The Dome where the attendees were from all age groups and not just people "on the scene".

It was quite refreshing as one persons played out oldie was another person's new sound, you could pretty much play what you wanted although we didn't go much beyond the 70's. I played Dena Barnes once in the early days (on a bootleg too shock horror!) and someone came up to the decks to see what it was, they were in their twenties. Different sounds would be popular in London too and the phrase "Big in London" actually turned up on dealers lists.

It was quite odd to venture up North and see clubs full of people all pretty much the same age, any younger ones were generally those people's children.

Maybe the way to ensure a soul scene endures as we all become decrepid & die is to drop the Northern tag and ditch the double or treble room scenario completely. A policy of sounds for the dance floor and that's it maybe.

Perhaps I should clarify my view by saying that I only really got into Northern in the 90's although i've always liked Soul music and was a bit of a "div" in the 70's. So I am still hearing what other people refer to as classics for the first time. When I hear a tune I either think its really good or not, I don't know if its an oldie, newie, played at The Mecca/Wigan/Torch/Stafford, who played it first or generally how much it is, all that information comes later for me.

I really do think the history side of the scene in the UK will kill it off if anything does to be honest, I cringe when I see documentaries on Northern Soul and they always treat it as a history lesson rather than what is happening now.

I've just read all this back and I'm sure someone will call for my immediate public hanging or at the very least burn an effigy of me

[Guest sydney bridge]

"they are expected to follow when now they should be leading"

yes. they won't on the northern scene as the price of original releases is a joke, even common records now demand silly money for how rare they are. outside the northern scene, there should be great hope that young people can come through as they are not restricted by a format handed down and enforced by those with vested (financial) interests, so they can obtain the music they want to play out without getting into major debt for their hobby/passion.

just putting my tin hat on

well said Paul,but if you want to appeal to the younger generation its a keflar hat you put on these days.How are you? Curnow.

[Winnie :-)]

I equate soul to wine! For example Northern Soul I now see as a fine wine still maturing and evolving. Not getting better or worse but the nuisances once associated with the 1974 vintage have developed over the years. The look, smell and taste have matured and become an established part of the genre, like a Bordeaux or Burgundy. There is still shelf life, but the shelf is not as big as it was in the day, but the price has gone up along with rarity. Remember, a Burgundy wine structure was established hundreds of years before the Artisans of Bordeaux knew what a grape was, yet they live together in the fine wine section in any shop. The snobbery of the Bordeaux wine makers has created problems for French wine by not changing some of their techniques to compete in the market place.

I feel because we are sandwiched between the future and the past not only with style and orchestration, but the technology too, we will see a sway to and fro from the quality soul recording from the 1960' and 70's. For example, why was a record only about 3 mins long? The technology. What did 12" records do to the clubs? Cut the number of songs you heard down by about 50% and made me feel older! I also agree about going to a gig where your parents go. It would be rare for younger people to follow in the same footsteps. And that is the problem; they are expected to follow when now they should be leading. The baton needs to be handed on at some stage of the race, but when I do not know. I still think a different potential will develop with this music and we have certainly not seen the end of it by a long chalk. However ask your self this for fun only - If you were to buy a bottle of wine today would it be old world or new world? If you answer the old world I can equate that to traditional values, respect and a 45rpm record! If you answer the latter, you have opted for a new world Chardonnay with 'essence of oak' put in it so unsuspecting British people think it is 'oaked' in a barrel , CD's and MP3's! If you are confused, you have dual standards, unlike me, I am not confused, but have dual standards!!

=============

Think you're right youngblood does not want to go where their parents are going, but people on here seem to think they'll want to go if that wasn't the case and it's a misconception. Young people don't want to go anywhere it's predominately older people full stop, doesn't matter if it's their parents their uncles, or Norman Soul himself. They want their own scene, they want to make their own statements and put their own slant on it. It's an absolute joke that some think fashion stops youngsters coming onto the current northern scene, it has no significant bearing.

Not sure about the 'they should be leading' comment. In what way can they lead?

[Winnie :-)]

When I was involved in running These Old Shoes in London, one of the great things about it was the diversity of people that would attend and the diversity of age groups. We would get the (cough) older soulies, some younger ones from the mod scene, people visiting from overseas who were generally under 30 and quite often people just turning up to see what Northern Soul was. This last group often contained club DJ's looking for new sounds.

This was pretty much the experience in other clubs in London at the same time, the best example being The Dome where the attendees were from all age groups and not just people "on the scene".

It was quite refreshing as one persons played out oldie was another person's new sound, you could pretty much play what you wanted although we didn't go much beyond the 70's. I played Dena Barnes once in the early days (on a bootleg too shock horror!) and someone came up to the decks to see what it was, they were in their twenties. Different sounds would be popular in London too and the phrase "Big in London" actually turned up on dealers lists.

It was quite odd to venture up North and see clubs full of people all pretty much the same age, any younger ones were generally those people's children.

Maybe the way to ensure a soul scene endures as we all become decrepid & die is to drop the Northern tag and ditch the double or treble room scenario completely. A policy of sounds for the dance floor and that's it maybe.

Perhaps I should clarify my view by saying that I only really got into Northern in the 90's although i've always liked Soul music and was a bit of a "div" in the 70's. So I am still hearing what other people refer to as classics for the first time. When I hear a tune I either think its really good or not, I don't know if its an oldie, newie, played at The Mecca/Wigan/Torch/Stafford, who played it first or generally how much it is, all that information comes later for me.

I really do think the history side of the scene in the UK will kill it off if anything does to be honest, I cringe when I see documentaries on Northern Soul and they always treat it as a history lesson rather than what is happening now.

I've just read all this back and I'm sure someone will call for my immediate public hanging or at the very least burn an effigy of me

=============

Can't see why the history should affect anything, loads of different compilations available from different scenes, dance, trance techno, rave etc etc, so one would assume people are interested in the history? If we're meant to discuss whats current, why are we still discussing records that are 40 years old? Mainly because they're the staple of the scene and the predjudice when you go outside this perameter is amazing. Recent threads on John Legend and Amy Winehouse for example prove that. The same people calling for progression are the same people saying these aren't soulful. Wether they are or aren't is a matter of opinion, but you say it to youngsters and you're basically trying to dictate to them.

"Don't listen to these records, there are 1000's of underplayed soul records that you should be checking out". Yep 1000's of records from the 6Ts and 7Ts, that's not current, that's history. As was said in the Legend thread, these records may fit my particular outlook on soul, but won't necessarily float the boat of a 25 year old, particularly not straight away. The way I see it you have two choices. Stop telling people what's soulful or not, cos if you tell them what's right and wrong enough, instead of listening, they'll drift away and think of us as sanctimonious old farts who don't like change.

Accept the scene for what it is and when youngblood makes it's rare appearances, hope that they follow current scene trends rather than their own.

[Dave Thorley]

Accept the scene for what it is and when youngblood makes it's rare appearances, hope that they follow current scene trends rather than their own.

Why, if everyone had accepted the scene as it was in the 70's then the Mecca wouldn't have happen or Stafford in the 80's, or The Orwell, or Soul Essence. No storm the Bastille

Edited October 18, 2006 by Dave Thorley

[Guest Carl Dixon]

Winnie - I agree with your comments and may I clarify my comment about leading.

Like back in the late 60's and 70's youngsters went out dancing and a wonderful soul scene was born that later become known as Northern Soul. It has took me, as a 50 year old, until December 30th last year to accept the term, as somebody bought me a T shirt for that milestone birthday with a fist and 'Northern Soul' printed on it (was it printed in Hull - my home town??) I could not accept the term as it pigeon holed the songs I liked listening to from the States before the existence of the phrase and felt a UK terminology should not title music from that country. I now know different and how important that terminology is. It is relative to a genre of music which like I said earlier, still evolving. I feel any younger people interested in the sound, but not 100% should make it their own by playing a mixture of records that their generation can enjoy. In other words, they too can set up a scene that they hopefully in years to come will still support and be encouraging the next generating to be curious about. In the meantime, should they visit a Northern Soul gig, they can enjoy the predominantly sixties sounds, knowledgeable DJ's and camaraderie.

Paul

I frequented 'These old Shoes' a few times myself and was sad it closed down. I wanted to try The Dome and missed out, due to my hideous shift pattern at work. For example the Prestatyn Weekend I was working over nights and for The Velvelettes I have had to book time off on holiday this coming November.

Not wishing to offend learned colleagues who fly their flags with pride, I can see the dilemma too. There are those with absolute conviction with their music and will not deviate from it. They don't need or want to. I can respect that and visit those gigs when I can and enjoy some of the music. I say some, because if I hear 100% records I have never heard before I get a little cheesed off as I am not a frequent attendee and like something familiar now and then. However, I recently went to a 'Monumental' night in London for a flying visit and enjoyed the more Philly styled records etc. I can also enjoy a mixture of the genres and feel the different sounds actually complement each other and stimulate those attending.

Friday the 27th October at the North London Tavern, 375 Kilburn Road, London, upstairs me and a mate are playing some soul and reggae. I am not a DJ, and am a nervous wreck already, but the plan is to take my silver box of records (and a few CD's) down with mainly 60/70's recordings and play things like The Dynamics/The train to Soulville, The Fabulettes/The bigger they are, The Temprees/At last, maybe The Tymes/The way you look tonight, but I will also play things like The Choice Four/The finger pointers, The Joneses/Sugar pie guy and even the 1985 Jenny Burton/Bad habits. In addition I have a couple of Salsoul tracks like Carol Williams/Love is you and Loleatta Holloway/Runaway. I also have an acetate with a couple of my own songs on I can play. No vocals just demo versions. So I hope to play a mixture of songs on a mixture of formats to a mixture of people drinking a mixture of drinks! My mate tried to suggest I was playing Northern Soul and as I feel I am not qualified to do so, because a) I do not have a big enough record collection and do not specifically go out and buy 45rpm's. The ultimate thrill for me is to judge reactions to my material with a view to recording it professionally but that's another story.

Edited October 18, 2006 by Carl Dixon

[Winnie :-)]

Why, if everyone had accepted the scene as it was in the 70's then the Mecca wouldn't have happen or Stafford in the 80's, or The Orwell, or Soul Essence. No storm the Bastille

=============

Should have actually added on the end of the post, I don't think the accept option is the right one. An open minded approach is whats required. Don't envisage a lot of bastille storming, cos that might mean making the attraction of youngblood the main priority, which in turn would mean getting rid of ALL the preconceptions, can't really see that happening......can you??

[Dave Thorley]

=============

Should have actually added on the end of the post, I don't think the accept option is the right one. An open minded approach is whats required. Don't envisage a lot of bastille storming, cos that might mean making the attraction of youngblood the main priority, which in turn would mean getting rid of ALL the preconceptions, can't really see that happening......can you??

Maybe not storming the Bastille, then. Think you and I would struggle scalling the walls and climbing the ladders. But with revolution comes innovation, and I do think attracting youngblood should be a major priority. If we leave be as is, then I do think in a few years what we will be left with will be poor. I think the northern scene, has little future, to backward looking. But the Rare Soul Scene has a great future and that'a not rare i.e. value, but the less common, the unusual

Edited October 18, 2006 by Dave Thorley

[Winnie :-)]

Winnie - I agree with your comments and may I clarify my comment about leading.

It is relative to a genre of music which like I said earlier, still evolving. I feel any younger people interested in the sound, but not 100% should make it their own by playing a mixture of records that their generation can enjoy. In other words, they too can set up a scene that they hopefully in years to come will still support and be encouraging the next generating to be curious about. In the meantime, should they visit a Northern Soul gig, they can enjoy the predominantly sixties sounds, knowledgeable DJ's and camaraderie.

==================

But where would they play the records, at an established venue, a brand new one? Wouldn't the same problem of being somewhere where people as old as your dad were still raise it's head. Just asking, not criticising, personally wouldn't mind, but feel younger DJs would face influences to play certain styles?

[Dave Thorley]

==================

But where would they play the records, at an established venue, a brand new one? Wouldn't the same problem of being somewhere where people as old as your dad were still raise it's head. Just asking, not criticising, personally wouldn't mind, but feel younger DJs would face influences to play certain styles?

I think it needs new venues, promoters that go much further than now. Bring in DJ's that play a complete mix of soulful stuff including Hip Hop/R&B. I go to many Hip Hop/R&B gigs and the age range is very varied. Ibiza in the summer has alot of people over the age of 40 there and the'Young Kids' have no problem with that. It's the music that attracts them or not.

[Sutty]

well said Paul,but if you want to appeal to the younger generation its a keflar hat you put on these days.How are you? Curnow.

very good curnow! c u in frankfurt for uptight? looks like i'll be in nuremberg for work the week before and after the weekender, with a free weekend inbetween, which is handy

[Dave Moore]

Don't usually get embroiled in these debates now, as it's mostly all been said before. Thought I'd chip in on this one though as some of it I found particularly patronising...

Surely as people have wanted to try different styles of music they've set up their own gigs. If you have the courage of your convictions simply go out and "do it". Been done in the past. Being done now. The guys who mandate an "all one room policy" should step up to the plate and DO IT. We, the soulies will then decide if it's for us or not. I've been collecting over 30 years and even I sometimes feel I'm being patronised by certain posts/threads/discussions! I don't particularly like the majority Modden Soul, House, Garage, Disco, Tent, or whatever the latest terminology is for the style that more commonly "blisters" itself on to Northern gigs cos it isn't self sustaining, but surely that's my choice. I'm nearly 50....I don't need edjumacating from peeps who consider them selves more "soulful" than me. I would suggest that the people clamouring for the "new blood" are the very same people who turn youngsters off with their "I know best, and you're all behind the times" attitude. It turns ME off...and I've been here 30 years!

I have a number of friends who collect, follow, lead, run gigs, etc that are in their mid 20s. I never sought them out, changed my clothes to fit in with them, shaved my tache off, advised them to listen to certain records, etc. What I did do however, was treat them with the respect that I would treat anyone else, irrespective of age, or background on "the scene". The one thing that's different on the overseas "soul scenes" is a lack of people trying to ram their preferences down other people's throats. The younger element here in the States know what they like, they don't old gimps like me trying to "teach them" for Fcuk Sakes.

They say that "familiarity breeds contempt". You have no idea how lucky you are in UK to have all this on your doorstep, venues galore, withing easy travelling distance, top class collectors spinning top class 45s week in, week out.

In my opinion, the very people who are contstantly questioning the "future" of Rare/Northern soul are the very same ones who will eventually damage it so much it will simply fragment and disappear as a "scene". The one thing that will never disappear however will be "The Record Collector"...now there's a different topic!

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

[Nottslynne]

This debate seems to come round every so often. With respect to bringing in new people one of the reasons myself and the other half go to venues is because people are of our age. There have been comments that youngsters don't want to be out with people old enough to be their parents. In the same vein we don't want to go somewhere that is full of young kids. I can't think of any other time.,.i.e rock and roll..when young and old alike have gone to the same place at the same time. My kids were bought up with NS and motown and they both like some of the stuff but I don't think they want to be out with a group of 40 or 50 year olds and why would they?

As for what happens when we die..............well I for one won't be worrying about that....I won't be here to grieve. Enjoy it while you're here as you do with everything else in life. I'm probably different to some on here as NS is not the be all and end all of my life...I do have a other things which take priority

Lynne

[Dave Moore]

As for what happens when we die..............well I for one won't be worrying about that....I won't be here to grieve. Enjoy it while you're here as you do with everything else in life.

Lynne

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

[Guest James Trouble]

You don't all need to die, it's just the dead wood that has already died that needs clearing out.

A kind of culling, if you like.

Edited October 18, 2006 by James Trouble

[Dave Thorley]

Don't usually get embroiled in these debates now, as it's mostly all been said before. Thought I'd chip in on this one though as some of it I found particularly patronising...

Surely as people have wanted to try different styles of music they've set up their own gigs. If you have the courage of your convictions simply go out and "do it". Been done in the past. Being done now. The guys who mandate an "all one room policy" should step up to the plate and DO IT. We, the soulies will then decide if it's for us or not. I've been collecting over 30 years and even I sometimes feel I'm being patronised by certain posts/threads/discussions! I don't particularly like the majority Modden Soul, House, Garage, Disco, Tent, or whatever the latest terminology is for the style that more commonly "blisters" itself on to Northern gigs cos it isn't self sustaining, but surely that's my choice. I'm nearly 50....I don't need edjumacating from peeps who consider them selves more "soulful" than me. I would suggest that the people clamouring for the "new blood" are the very same people who turn youngsters off with their "I know best, and you're all behind the times" attitude. It turns ME off...and I've been here 30 years!

I have a number of friends who collect, follow, lead, run gigs, etc that are in their mid 20s. I never sought them out, changed my clothes to fit in with them, shaved my tache off, advised them to listen to certain records, etc. What I did do however, was treat them with the respect that I would treat anyone else, irrespective of age, or background on "the scene". The one thing that's different on the overseas "soul scenes" is a lack of people trying to ram their preferences down other people's throats. The younger element here in the States know what they like, they don't old gimps like me trying to "teach them" for Fcuk Sakes.

They say that "familiarity breeds contempt". You have no idea how lucky you are in UK to have all this on your doorstep, venues galore, withing easy travelling distance, top class collectors spinning top class 45s week in, week out.

In my opinion, the very people who are contstantly questioning the "future" of Rare/Northern soul are the very same ones who will eventually damage it so much it will simply fragment and disappear as a "scene". The one thing that will never disappear however will be "The Record Collector"...now there's a different topic!

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

So dave

You clearly think that venues like Stafford, Lifeline, Bretby, Soul Essence, and The Orwell, That set out to look for no-yet played records have damaged the scene. They were not set up to preach but to find and bring records to peoples attention and for record collectors to collect.

People sit on here all day complaining about poor turn out at venues, or boring playlist and DJ's. Then when someone suggest change, everyone goes into melt down. You can't win, I give up

Edited October 18, 2006 by Dave Thorley

[Dave Thorley]

You don't all need to die, it's just the dead wood that has already died that needs clearing out.

A kind of culling, if you like.

A few sheep in there look familiar

[Sutty]

i see this has now developed into a discussion about the northern soul scene and not the soul scene generally. why do people on the northern scene suddenly think that all discussions about new people on the soul scene are about the sixties scene, and start getting all defensive about music policies and the like? is it not possible to have a discussion about whether the soul music scene itself will survive without people attacking each other, one of the very things that is so detrimental to anyone getting interested in soul music, and the complete opposite of what it's all about?

whoops just dodged another bullet

[Guest James Trouble]

The dead wood that needs clearing out could easily be hearded into an old working men's club with a promotion like THIS (nice one Jason)!

Then bolt all the doors and set fire to the building, that'll be end of it and everything will be better.

[Guest Gavin Page]

Colin needs to get his hair cut

[Dave Moore]

So dave

You clearly think that venues like Stafford, Lifeline, Bretby, Soul Essence, and The Orwell, That set out to look for no-yet played records have damaged the scene. They were not set up to preach but to find and bring records to peoples attention and for record collectors to collect.

Hi Dave,

Not at all. I understand that Mate and would support (and have) venues you mentioned. I think you need to maybe reread my post without such a defensive posture. I did actually open my comments almost with...

"Surely as people have wanted to try different styles of music they've set up their own gigs. If you have the courage of your convictions simply go out and "do it". Been done in the past. Being done now".

I would refer the learned gentleman to the comments by Sir James of Trouble...for an example of what I meant. Only a few minutes after my post. I rest my case M'Lud.

I just don't think that constantly trying to convert people by "talkin' down" to them is the way it can be done effectively. I just get fed up of being termed a dinasour, a sheep, etc simply because the "soul congescenti", which is how it comes across a lot of the time, deem their preferences/values are so much more valid than anyone elses. Not expecting you to agree with me, just trying to make room for my opinion, surely it's as valid as anyone elses........mmmm maybe not?

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

[Dave Thorley]

i see this has now developed into a discussion about the northern soul scene and not the soul scene generally. why do people on the northern scene suddenly think that all discussions about new people on the soul scene are about the sixties scene, and start getting all defensive about music policies and the like? is it not possible to have a discussion about whether the soul music scene itself will survive without people attacking each other, one of the very things that is so detrimental to anyone getting interested in soul music, and the complete opposite of what it's all about?

whoops just dodged another bullet

Hi Mate

Your right, this site is called Soulsource, not Northern Soul anything. The whole start to this tread was about UK soul scene, not the Northern Scene.

[Dave Moore]

Hi Mate

Your right, this site is called Soulsource, not Northern Soul anything. The whole start to this tread was about UK soul scene, not the Northern Scene.

My apologies gentlemen, I shall withdraw from further postings on the subject.

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

[Winnie :-)]

Don't usually get embroiled in these debates now, as it's mostly all been said before. Thought I'd chip in on this one though as some of it I found particularly patronising...

Surely as people have wanted to try different styles of music they've set up their own gigs. If you have the courage of your convictions simply go out and "do it". Been done in the past. Being done now. The guys who mandate an "all one room policy" should step up to the plate and DO IT. We, the soulies will then decide if it's for us or not. I've been collecting over 30 years and even I sometimes feel I'm being patronised by certain posts/threads/discussions! I don't particularly like the majority Modden Soul, House, Garage, Disco, Tent, or whatever the latest terminology is for the style that more commonly "blisters" itself on to Northern gigs cos it isn't self sustaining, but surely that's my choice. I'm nearly 50....I don't need edjumacating from peeps who consider them selves more "soulful" than me. I would suggest that the people clamouring for the "new blood" are the very same people who turn youngsters off with their "I know best, and you're all behind the times" attitude. It turns ME off...and I've been here 30 years!

I have a number of friends who collect, follow, lead, run gigs, etc that are in their mid 20s. I never sought them out, changed my clothes to fit in with them, shaved my tache off, advised them to listen to certain records, etc. What I did do however, was treat them with the respect that I would treat anyone else, irrespective of age, or background on "the scene". The one thing that's different on the overseas "soul scenes" is a lack of people trying to ram their preferences down other people's throats. The younger element here in the States know what they like, they don't old gimps like me trying to "teach them" for Fcuk Sakes.

They say that "familiarity breeds contempt". You have no idea how lucky you are in UK to have all this on your doorstep, venues galore, withing easy travelling distance, top class collectors spinning top class 45s week in, week out.

In my opinion, the very people who are contstantly questioning the "future" of Rare/Northern soul are the very same ones who will eventually damage it so much it will simply fragment and disappear as a "scene". The one thing that will never disappear however will be "The Record Collector"...now there's a different topic!

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

So dave

You clearly think that venues like Stafford, Lifeline, Bretby, Soul Essence, and The Orwell, That set out to look for no-yet played records have damaged the scene. They were not set up to preach but to find and bring records to peoples attention and for record collectors to collect.

People sit on here all day complaining about poor turn out at venues, or boring playlist and DJ's. Then when someone suggest change, everyone goes into melt down. You can't win, I give up

============

I think Dave Moore does make some valid points though. Don't you get frustrated when someone tells you John Legend isn't soulful simply because he doesn't fit their particular criteria? If I like something and think it's soulful, I get fed up reading the

"Oh no it isn't posts", because they come across as "I know considerably more than you". Maybe these are the people that need to take the blinkers off.

Same as the "They wear funny trousers, so youngsters won't come to the venues" Posts. What difference do the clothes make? And just what should we wear so that we're accepted by the younger element. I go to venues and people wear trainers, not traditionally associated with the scene because they're not great to dance in, but I guess they look fashionable and get you instant respect should a youngster walk by. Add that to a greeting of "Yo yo yo yo yo, waaaasssssuuuuuppppp" and we're well in

I think Mark B and many others have said it many times, it's the music ultimately that should and will move you, spend your time playing Trinny and Susanah and you're missing the point IMO.

Winnie:-)

[Dave Thorley]

Hi Dave,

Not at all. I understand that Mate and would support (and have) venues you mentioned. I think you need to maybe reread my post without such a defensive posture. I did actually open my comments almost with...

"Surely as people have wanted to try different styles of music they've set up their own gigs. If you have the courage of your convictions simply go out and "do it". Been done in the past. Being done now".

I would refer the learned gentleman to the comments by Sir James of Trouble...for an example of what I meant. Only a few minutes after my post. I rest my case M'Lud.

I just don't think that constantly trying to convert people by "talkin' down" to them is the way it can be done effectively. I just get fed up of being termed a dinasour, a sheep, etc simply because the "soul congescenti", which is how it comes across a lot of the time, deem their preferences/values are so much more valid than anyone elses. Not expecting you to agree with me, just trying to make room for my opinion, surely it's as valid as anyone elses........mmmm maybe not?

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

Hi Dave

People, go where they like, listen to what they like, what ever. I not preaching to anyone to change, that is happy with as is. This was a conversation tread for those who feel things do need to change and I am interested in their views. I feel the Northern scene has limited life, IMO. The rare soul scene can run as long as people make music and some of it stay under promoted and requires finding out.

Happy days

[Guest rachel]

playing Trinny and Susanah

Have they got a record out too or is that a cover-up name?

[Winnie :-)]

Have they got a record out too or is that a cover-up name?

==========

Yeah its Dottie and Millie

[Sweeney]

I agree with the main thrust of the sentiments Dave Thorley has expressed.

Did I think that back in 1981 when I attended an all-nighter for the first time that it would be more or less the same a quarter of a century later? No, I certainly didn't. In some ways I'm shocked that it's changed so little, paradoxically, I'm reassured that it hasn't changed that much. Go figure! Welcome to middle age, I suppose.

I thought that Black America would continue to produce innovative, exciting and thought-provoking dance-based music for the rest of my time on the planet. It has, broadly speaking, but very little (if any of it) will now get played at a Northern/Rare Soul night.

Why is this? Has Black America failed to live up to our stringent standards, or have we just become immune to it's peculiar charms, preferring records that were made 40-odd years ago?

Is it too late? are we, as miserable old gits too innately conservative to embrace a new definition of a Northern Soul scene? Should anyone over the age of 40 be banned from attending All-Nighters? Should comfier chairs and endless supplies of free Werthers Originals be made available at venues?

Discuss.

Edited October 18, 2006 by sweeney

[Guest James Trouble]

Oh, and Dave, with respect mate, you can stick your hip hop where the sun doesn't shine. I've spent half my life trying to avoid that nonsense without having to endure it at northern soul events

Anybody who is attracted to northern soul is not likely to want to hear hip hop. Plain and simple. The follk who will be attracted to it will be people who are fed up with shithoptripbeatdrumandbassgaragegroove, or whatever else is trendy this year. They will want to hear northern soul music. Which sounds like either motown or james brown, archie bells or quality disco.

Hip Hop never will be northern soul, and it has no part at a northern soul event. Forget that, seriously, you're worrying me.

I agree with the main thrust of the sentiments Dave Thorley has expressed.

Did I think that back in 1981 when I attended an all-nighter for the first time that it would be more or less the same a quarter of a century later? No, I certainly didn't. In some ways I'm shocked that it's changed so little, paradoxically, I'm reassured that it hasn't changed that much. Go figure! Welcome to middle age, I suppose.

I thought that Black America would continue to produce innovative, exciting and thought-provoking dance-based music for the rest of my time on the planet. It has, broadly speaking, but very little (if any of it) will now get played at a Northern/Rare Soul night.

Why is this? Has Black America failed to live up to our stringent standards, or have we just become immune to it's peculiar charms, preferring records that were made 40-odd years ago?

Is it too late? are we, as miserable old gits too innately conservative to embrace a new definition of a Northern Soul scene? Should anyone over the age of 40 be banned from attending All-Nighters? Should comfier chairs and endless supplies of free Werthers Originals be made available at venues?

Discuss.

It doesn't get played because it is basically, pony.

Edited October 18, 2006 by James Trouble

[Dave]

=============

Think you're right youngblood does not want to go where their parents are going, but people on here seem to think they'll want to go if that wasn't the case and it's a misconception. Young people don't want to go anywhere it's predominately older people full stop, doesn't matter if it's their parents their uncles, or Norman Soul himself. They want their own scene, they want to make their own statements and put their own slant on it. It's an absolute joke that some think fashion stops youngsters coming onto the current northern scene, it has no significant bearing.

Not sure about the 'they should be leading' comment. In what way can they lead?

Strange! I've spoken to a number of people who have a liking for the music, but find the 70's fashions naff and have mentioned that as a factor that puts them off attending. However, as you say "it has no significant bearing", I must have got mixed up somewhere along the line.

[Winnie :-)]

Strange! I've spoken to a number of people who have a liking for the music, but find the 70's fashions naff and have mentioned that as a factor that puts them off attending. However, as you say "it has no significant bearing", I must have got mixed up somewhere along the line.

=============

They let the fashions put them off attending, hmmm potential to be true soulies then if that outweighs the music

I've asked before, perhaps in your next survey you could ask these youngsters exactly what we should be wearing?

[Guest James Trouble]

Strange! I've spoken to a number of people who have a liking for the music, but find the 70's fashions naff and have mentioned that as a factor that puts them off attending. However, as you say "it has no significant bearing", I must have got mixed up somewhere along the line.

If people don't want to go somewhere because of the age of the other people, or what they wear, they are obviously a bit shallow and don't care about the music. So it's not worth worrying about folk like that.

[Zed1]

The dead wood that needs clearing out could easily be hearded into an old working men's club with a promotion like THIS (nice one Jason)!

Then bolt all the doors and set fire to the building, that'll be end of it and everything will be better.

Proof (If it were needed) why the two scene's will never fully co-exist!. :angry: