SAM FLETCHER 'I'D THINK IT OVER'TOLLIE

[dean jj]

I've seen two versions of the issue: tollie in a box and tollie not in a box. What is the significance?

dean

[Tlscapital]

Pressing plants: east-coast vinyl (box) and west-coast styrene (no box)

[dean jj]

Thank you most muchly. Mines got a box.

dean

[Zanetti]

exactly ... box pressing out of chicago - styrene one the rarer one

[Chris L]

I like the box one best of all (don't like the record much though)

[Roburt]

Of all the tracks Johnny Pate worked on in his early years as an arranger (1963/64 -- Major Lance, Billy Butler, Impressions, Betty Everett, Artistics, Gene Chandler, Ted Taylor, Opals & more), this was the track that he got the most excited about when I talked with him. He was really proud of this.

[Chris L]

16 minutes ago, Roburt said:

Of all the tracks Johnny Pate worked on in his early years as an arranger (1963/64 -- Major Lance, Billy Butler, Impressions, Betty Everett, Artistics, Gene Chandler, Ted Taylor, Opals & more), this was the track that he got the most excited about when I talked with him. He was really proud of this.

I hope you told him how excited we get about Earl Jackson 

[Simon T]

8 hours ago, tlscapital said:

Pressing plants: east-coast vinyl and west-coast styrene

Does anyone know if this 'rule' is actually true and that the majority of records are indeed vinyl in the East and styrene in the West? Or is the it just a perception skewed by the output from the Monarch plant mostly being styrene .  If it is, why did they choose vinyl above styrene and visa versa? Is the machinery different?

 

[dean jj]

8 hours ago, Zanetti said:

exactly ... box pressing out of chicago - styrene one the rarer one

styrene good?

[Roburt]

10 hours ago, Chris L said:

I hope you told him how excited we get about Earl Jackson 

I talked to him about Earl Jackson. That was cut in the period when he was 9 to 5 everyday for ABC. It was just a job to him by then, he couldn't remember even working with Earl Jackson, anything about the guy or the tracks cut. That work was a total blank to him, even though he arranged the track, conducted the musicians on the backing & produced it. He is even co-credited with writing "Soul Self Satisfaction", so he must have changed / developed the song that Earl had fetched to the studio with him to have 'earnt' that credit (maybe Earl had planned it at another tempo & Johnny suggested doing it the way it turned out, we'll never know I'm afraid).

[Tlscapital]

14 hours ago, dean jj said:

styrene good?

Vinyl versus styrene debate is endless. Comparing good quality 45 vinyl with good quality 45 styrene pressings on a good quality phono set-up shows that styrene have a "clearer" and "airy" sound where vinyl is "noisy" and "damped" sounding. Vinyls wear out better where styrene tend to suffer from "rough" handling. Some companies used different pressing plants and so the same 45 came out both on vinyl and styrene. Collectors like me go for one or the other depending on the label. Not only accordingly for the "realistic" reasons, but also for subjective esthetic reasons. Some styrene releases are favored by some for their look (label, typos...) and the same goes for some vinyls. In this case, the styrene if clean looks better IMHO and "realistically" sounds much better to do justice to the musical/vocal arrangements and the magnificent sound mastering. And I respect and understand those who prefer the vinyl release on this Sam Fletcher.

[dean jj]

8 minutes ago, tlscapital said:

Vinyl versus styrene debate is endless. Comparing good quality 45 vinyl with good quality 45 styrene pressings on a good quality phono set-up shows that styrene have a "clearer" and "airy" sound where vinyl is "noisy" and "damped" sounding. Vinyls wear out better where styrene tend to suffer from "rough" handling. Some companies used different pressing plants and so the same 45 came out both on vinyl and styrene. Collectors like me go for one or the other depending on the label. Not only accordingly for the "realistic" reasons, but also for subjective esthetic reasons. Some styrene releases are favored by some for their look (label, typos...) and the same goes for some vinyls. In this case, the styrene if clean looks better IMHO and "realistically" sounds much better to do justice to the musical/vocal arrangements and the magnificent sound mastering. And I respect and understand those who prefer the vinyl release on this Sam Fletcher.

I'm on my fourth copy of bobby reed [bell]]and while its fine it is getting a bit pricey to replace.

dean

[Tlscapital]

8 minutes ago, dean jj said:

I'm on my fourth copy of bobby reed [bell]]and while its fine it is getting a bit pricey to replace.

dean

I would believe that the vinyl for the Bobby Reed on Bell is better. I'll ask a friend here to come over one day to my place with his vinyl copy and compare it direct with my styrene one (that does distort in the highs). I love the looks of the 6T's & 7T's Bell, Amy, Mala... on styrene but they were never the best quality really. Okeh (Columbia) styrene where good !

Edited August 18, 2016 by tlscapital

[Chris Turnbull]

2 hours ago, dean jj said:

I'm on my fourth copy of bobby reed [bell]]and while its fine it is getting a bit pricey to replace.

dean

Hi Dean, in fact you were the first person I heard spin Bobby Reed, at an excellent Parkers occasional 'northern' night in one of the other rooms, c. 1992 I guess.

It was creating something of a stir at the time and I remember being blown away. Took me ages to get one - Dave Hind sold his copy to Soul Sam at Thorne having already promised it to Alan D, which went down like the proverbial with Alan

Seem to recall you also spun some nice beat ballads that night at Parkers like Irma Thomas 'It's starting to get to me now' - have a funny memory for that kind of thing. Holly Maxwell 'Only when you're lonely' another big tune of the time

My Bobby Reed styrene I think - does distort slightly in places. Hadn't realised also on vinyl. Had a Buddy Ace 'Pleasing You' for sale on here a few weeks back and several emails asking if it was vinyl or styrene, folks only after the vinyl - hadn't thought that scientifically about it before, just a good tune.  

Cheers, Chris.

[Chris Turnbull]

Dean, PS I remember the day you got your Sam Fletcher from Rod - Alan told me one had come in but you had got there first with the readies and I was totally miffed lol

[dean jj]

Did not get it from Rod, got it from Mr.Pierce at a record fair and managed to get Minnie Epperson on Action thrown in to the deal. Gave a guy a lift to Lowton that weekend he offered me £500...I pointed out that after decade or so I didn't want to sell it after six days.

dean

Edited August 18, 2016 by dean jj

[dean jj]

don't know what the lines over the last bit are about

[Chris Turnbull]

26 minutes ago, dean jj said:

Did not get it from Rod, got it from Mr.Pierce at a record fair

I knew you were going to say that lol 

[Frankie Crocker]

On 17 August 2016 at 12:36, Zanetti said:

exactly ... box pressing out of chicago - styrene one the rarer one

I'll settle for the Chicago vinyl pressing thanks. I've also read that is the rarer pressing.

[Frankie Crocker]

On 18 August 2016 at 12:17, tlscapital said:

Vinyl versus styrene debate is endless. Comparing good quality 45 vinyl with good quality 45 styrene pressings on a good quality phono set-up shows that styrene have a "clearer" and "airy" sound where vinyl is "noisy" and "damped" sounding. Vinyls wear out better where styrene tend to suffer from "rough" handling. Some companies used different pressing plants and so the same 45 came out both on vinyl and styrene. Collectors like me go for one or the other depending on the label. Not only accordingly for the "realistic" reasons, but also for subjective esthetic reasons. Some styrene releases are favored by some for their look (label, typos...) and the same goes for some vinyls. In this case, the styrene if clean looks better IMHO and "realistically" sounds much better to do justice to the musical/vocal arrangements and the magnificent sound mastering. And I respect and understand those who prefer the vinyl release on this Sam Fletcher.

Have you got this right? Even brand new styrene records distort when the high notes are reached - this does not happen with vinyl records. A stylus placed on a styrene record soon causes a hiss on the run in. Vinyl is longer lasting and tends to wear out less whereas styrene deteriorates noticeably. Styrene records have an inherent weakness where the material joins that sometimes shows up as a linear flaw. Styrene records can crack even when handled gently. Moulded vinyl labels are more practical and aesthetic whilst those stuck on styrene can peel and fall off. Styrene was used as a cheaper substitute for vinyl as the record market grew and the records of the 60's played on crude portable turntables with weighty tone-arms tended to suffer irreversible damage made of this material. True, some styrene labels look good but as it's what's in the grooves that counts, give me vinyl records  any day. Made my day when I checked my Sam Fletcher to discover it was the Chicago release in vinyl.

[Chalky]

On 17 August 2016 at 21:27, simon t said:

 

plenty of styrene out of the east Simon.

[Chalky]

5 minutes ago, chalky said:

plenty of styrene out of the east Simon.

Some good info from Gareth in this topic.....

 

[Simon T]

39 minutes ago, chalky said:

plenty of styrene out of the east Simon.

So would you say about a 50:50 split on both 'coasts'?

[Simon T]

36 minutes ago, chalky said:

Some good info from Gareth in this topic.....

 

[Tlscapital]

18 hours ago, FRANKIE CROCKER said:

Have you got this right? Even brand new styrene records distort when the high notes are reached - this does not happen with vinyl records. A stylus placed on a styrene record soon causes a hiss on the run in. Vinyl is longer lasting and tends to wear out less whereas styrene deteriorates noticeably. Styrene records have an inherent weakness where the material joins that sometimes shows up as a linear flaw. Styrene records can crack even when handled gently. Moulded vinyl labels are more practical and aesthetic whilst those stuck on styrene can peel and fall off. Styrene was used as a cheaper substitute for vinyl as the record market grew and the records of the 60's played on crude portable turntables with weighty tone-arms tended to suffer irreversible damage made of this material. True, some styrene labels look good but as it's what's in the grooves that counts, give me vinyl records  any day. Made my day when I checked my Sam Fletcher to discover it was the Chicago release in vinyl.

Yes, I've got this totally right. I'll stick to my words up there. Styrene is not automatically "cheap" where vinyl is not always "better", that can't be right. I'll give you that there's a lot of cheap made vinyl that can be very annoying to play. And they made many all over the world since the 6T's, more and more in the 7T's that became dull, ultra static after few plays... Now I acknowledge that indeed styrene inherent life-span (before wear) is kinda shorter than vinyl.

This is due to it's "weaker" resistance to mechanical "stylus" friction. but what comes as a major factor when playing them, is the phono set-up you play them on ! Cue burn (on styrene...) for instance is caused by un-proper use with an unfit diamond on.

You can not be bothered about what you play your records on and then that's that. But you can't argue that a proper phono set up (doesn't have to be expensive from head to trail) is NOT only an audiophile nerd thing. I also believed for years that it was only a snobbish geek thing to be taught wrong after all. It can be ! It's just not only that. And I do love my good styrene pressings played on my true MONO phono set up. They sound much deeper, airy and tight than their vinyl counterparts!

 

Example; I had a mint Spinners 'I'll always love you' on styrene Motown, it sounded amazing, but I collect them promo & vinyl and so I kept the promo vinyl. But honestly the sound on the styrene was indeed much deeper and airy. Some collect them Motown things on styrene only and that is far from stupid. Now I understand them better. I'm a collector with some collector's reasons which are sometimes... stupid; I just love the rough looks of those Motown promo "block" design logo.

Edited September 1, 2016 by tlscapital

[Frankie Crocker]

5 hours ago, tlscapital said:

Yes, I've got this totally right. I'll stick to my words up there. Styrene is not automatically "cheap" where vinyl is not always "better", that can't be right. I'll give you many cheap made vinyl pressings that are very annoying to play everyday. And they made many all over the world since the 6T's, more and more in the 7T's that became dull, ultra static after few plays... Now I acknowledge that indeed styrene inherent life-span (before ware) is kinda shorter than vinyl.

This is due to it's "weaker" resistance to mechanical "stylus" friction. but what comes as a major factor when playing them, is the phono set-up you play them on ! Cue burn (on styrene...) for instance is caused by un-proper use with an unfit diamond on.

You can not be bothered about what you play your records on and then that's that. But you can't argue that a proper phono set up (doesn't have to be expensive from head to trail) is NOT only an audiophile nerd thing. I also believed for years that it was only a snobbish geek thing to be taught wrong after all. It can be ! It's just not only that. And I do love my good styrene pressings played on my true MONO phono set up. They sound much deeper, airy and tight than their vinyl counterparts!

 

Example; I had a mint Spinners 'I'll always love you' on styrene Motown, it sounded amazing, but I collect them promo & vinyl and so I kept the promo vinyl. But honestly the sound on the styrene was indeed much deeper and airy. Some collect them Motown things on styrene only and that is far from stupid. Now I understand them better. I'm a collector with some collector's reasons which are sometimes... stupid; I just love the rough looks of those Motown promo "block" design logo.

Yep, I'll concede that some vinyl from the 60's is poor quality with the odd bump, bubble or too coarse a grain. Just been sorting through a pile of records and was reminded that some styrene records just have a screen printed label and not even a stick-on one.

I use a fantastic Thorens deck and use a 1.5 gm tracking weight to minimise wear. I am not an audiophile buff but the system I use is terrific for the 'vintage'records I play with amp and speakers doing full justice to vocals and instruments.

As a primitive hunter-gatherer, I keep both vinyl and styrene pressings for the same release plus any other label variations: for the Motown records, this is particularly tricky so this part of the collection is badly in need of reorganising.

I wish the price guides and record sellers would specify whether records were vinyl and/or styrene releases so we could specialise when buying.

[Chalky]

A lot of vinyl was reused or reground (especially in the 70s and the oil crisis) which resulted in oxygen getting in the regrind, thats why there are many mint vinyl copies that play with noise.  Most (quality) brand new styrene presses is often far better quality initially but its deteriorates far too quick.  The styrene stampers lasted much much longer than vinyl stampers.  But at the end of the day records weren't made to last though and many record companies were just interested in the here and now and making a quick buck.

Edited September 1, 2016 by chalky