Jimmy Hart "Sugar Baby" Blue Rock 4035 - Help Requested

[Guest rickwilkerson]

I am a shop owner in Indianapolis and have just joined Soul Source though I've read it off and on for years.

What brings me to post:  I got in 2 copies of Jimmy Hart's Blue Rock single #4035, Sugar Baby/Tea House.  My searches indicate that this wasn't actually released on Blue Rock, that it was acetate only via Blue Rock and was only officially released on Mercury. 

I recently purchased a collection that came from an employee of the RPC pressing plant in Richmond, Indiana.  These 45's were in the collection.  Two stock copies, apparently unplayed, in company sleeves, yet there doesn't appear to be a record of their existence.

Anyone know the story on this record?  Thanks in advance.

[The Yank]

Not sure why this happened but it also happened to another Blue Rock 45-#4039- The Fads- "The Problem Is"/  "Just Like A Woman"  which

was issued as Mercury #72542. 

[Roburt]

Mercury were obviously changing their release policy with regard to Blue Rock 45's in late 1965.

I don't have the exact details at present but they seemed to suspend all Blue Rock releases towards the end of 1965 (around #4036/37).

When they started to use the label again about 18 months had passed & a whole section of numbers weren't used (perhaps releases had been scheduled for the missing numbers but these tracks then transferred to other Mercury labels). 

I'd say what you have (Blue Rock #4035  -- planned as a Nov 65 release) will be rare items.

I guess this Billboard report explains why the Blue Rock releases were suspended (staff changes) .......

Edited July 8, 2016 by Roburt

[Roburt]

From early to summer 68, Mercury execs held a series of meetings with their regional distributors to get feedback on sales, trends. No doubt, they were told that soul music buyers missed the Blue Rock label. Abe Chayet was one of these execs & he was soon designated Blue Rock Product Manager & the label was reinstated. 

In Oct 65, Abe (then a Eastern regional director) had been tasked by Mercury with promoting the label's move into pushing a new line of reissued cheap C&W albums from the company (along with Shelby Singleton). Billboard had abandoned their R&B 45's chart in late 63 & these were only reinstated in Feb 65.,Perhaps (slow to react) Mercury Execs had decided soul 45 sales would be dipping & so eventually (months later) shut the Blue Rock label down.  

Blue Rocks resurrection in June 68 ........  

Edited July 9, 2016 by Roburt

[Guest rickwilkerson]

Thanks for this detailed info.  Increasingly I suspect that a small production run of the Blue Rock 45 was completed, but maybe trashed before release.  That would be a plausible explanation as to why these two copies exist.

[Guest rickwilkerson]

Here's a photo of the Sugar Baby side.

 

Edited July 8, 2016 by rickwilkerson
Fixed image.

[The Yank]

Thanks for posting the picture !

 

[Robbk]

Ron Murphy, Detroit record producer, record masterer and label owner, from the late '60s through the 2000s, and a friend of mine, told me that he had a good working relationship with many of the Detroit pressing plants.  That's how he obtained many rare 45s, which had been both DJ and store stock press run test copies.  He told me that standard policy at ARP, RCA Midwest, and most other large pressing plants was to make 6 labeled test pressings before each press run, to assure that no mistakes or problems would occur.  The usual policy was for the plant to keep 2 of those test copies on hand, for samples  in case of future runs.  The 4 other copies were given to the customer (record company).  THAT's how the Soul 35019 Frank Wilson DJ and store stockers were found (DJs were found by Ron in an old pressing plant box), and the 2 store stockers were in Motown's and Jobete's record files-I had seen those, myself-and we had one in Tom DePierro's office for 5-6 years), despite the real press runs being cancelled.  

I suspect that those Blue Rock unreleased issues experienced the same fate.  Their scheduled press runs had been cancelled before any real press run - BUT, there WERE test runs of 6 store stockers (and, perhaps DJs, too?).  And THAT is why only a couple copies are known (they were the 2 test copies retained at the pressing plant).

[Guest rickwilkerson]

And...this is exactly why I came here to find out the story on this record.  Thanks for the info!

[Guest rickwilkerson]

[Robbk]

Incredible that I've been looking through literally millions of 45s since that record was out in 1965, and never saw it (as it was likely never pressed up), and then TWO copies show up (probably the 2 pressing plant copies of the 6 test pressings).

Interesting that the title is shortened from "Tea House In Chinatown" (Mercury pressing) to just "Tea House".

[Guest rickwilkerson]

Based on your info, the only other shot you'd have had (or anyone else) is to find the label's copies.  Here it is 51 years later, so what are the chances of that, right?

[Robbk]

Not nil.  Often people working for those record companies steal them, and sell them on E-Bay (as happened with Motown's Record File and Jobete Music Co.'s  record file copies of the Frank Wilson Soul issue, and the Andantes' VIP issue, and loads of Motown unreleased acetates.  But, I suspect that Mercury Records probably threw theirs away or had them melted down, years ago.

[Guest rickwilkerson]

If the latter's true, would be such a shame.  Better that these get into collector hands regardless, though I'm not necessarily condoning theft.  Them getting trashed is worse.

Oh yeah.  I have had several messages asking--I will be selling one of these but I've decided to do eBay because I have no idea what kind of market there is. I'll post the link when it's up.  

[Chalky]

11 hours ago, RobbK said:

Not nil.  Often people working for those record companies steal them, and sell them on E-Bay (as happened with Motown's Record File and Jobete Music Co.'s  record file copies of the Frank Wilson Soul issue, and the Andantes' VIP issue, and loads of Motown unreleased acetates.  But, I suspect that Mercury Records probably threw theirs away or had them melted down, years ago.

Only one of the file copies was stolen though. The second came for a pressing plant employee who Ron Murphy traced/advertised for. Obviously he or she had kept one of those intended to be destroyed. Presumably the Jobete copy is still there?

back on topic,great find  one that should keep the anoraks moist for a while  

 

[Robbk]

1 hour ago, chalky said:

Only one of the file copies was stolen though. The second came for a pressing plant employee who Ron Murphy traced/advertised for. Obviously he or she had kept one of those intended to be destroyed. Presumably the Jobete copy is still there?

back on topic,great find  one that should keep the anoraks moist for a while  

 

When the Frank Wilson "Do I Love You" was in our (Tom DePierro's) office, in late 1979 or early 1980, I checked BOTH The Motown Record Corp. Record File, and The Jobete Music Co. Record File (as that was the only place I had seen the record before), and not surprising, I saw that BOTH copies were missing.  I assumed "Ours" (Tom's) was one of them.  And didn't know what had happened to the other.  I shouldn't speak ill of the dead, or someone who I had called a friend.  But, Tom told me that he had "rescued" that record, along with 2 copies of The Andantes VIP, and several other ultra rare records in a box that had been "thrown into the trash".  Somehow, I found that tough to believe.

 

But, are you telling me that ONE of the 2 different file copies turned up at Motown after 1980?  So, only the one copy (that presumably went to Simon Soussan, or someone else, who eventually delivered it to The UK) was removed from Motown's offices?  Tom took "his" copy with us to our Airwave Records office, and it was "obtained" (probably by Soussan) from there, some time during 1980-82 (If I remember correctly).

[Chalky]

2 minutes ago, RobbK said:

When the Frank Wilson "Do I Love You" was in our (Tom DePierro's) office, in late 1979 or early 1980, I checked BOTH The Motown Record Corp. Record File, and The Jobete Music Co. Record File (as that was the only place I had seen the record before), and not surprising, I saw that BOTH copies were missing.  I assumed "Ours" (Tom's) was one of them.  And didn't know what had happened to the other.  I shouldn't speak ill of the dead, or someone who I had called a friend.  But, Tom told me that he had "rescued" that record, along with 2 copies of The Andantes VIP, and several other ultra rare records in a box that had been "thrown into the trash".  Somehow, I found that tough to believe.

 

But, are you telling me that ONE of the 2 different file copies turned up at Motown after 1980?  So, only the one copy (that presumably went to Simon Soussan, or someone else, who eventually delivered it to The UK) was removed from Motown's offices?  Tom took "his" copy with us to our Airwave Records office, and it was "obtained" (probably by Soussan) from there, some time during 1980-82 (If I remember correctly).

Just the one copy in the Uk came from Motown, the one Soussan "obtained" from Tom's office, it was played in the Uk in '79 if remember rightly so would be earlier than you suggest when SS obtained it.The other came via a pressing plant employee who had one of those that should have been destroyed.  Now if the other Motown/Jobete copy is missing as well that would make three copies out there in the wild, only two are known about.

[Robbk]

49 minutes ago, chalky said:

Just the one copy in the Uk came from Motown, the one Soussan "obtained" from Tom's office, it was played in the Uk in '79 if remember rightly so would be earlier than you suggest when SS obtained it.The other came via a pressing plant employee who had one of those that should have been destroyed.  Now if the other Motown/Jobete copy is missing as well that would make three copies out there in the wild, only two are known about.

We had The Frank Wilson in our offices (both at Motown and Airwave) for a total of 4-5 years.  So, it was probably sold to Soussan in '79. 

Yes, then there should be 3 copies out there.  There also should have been another one at the pressing plant.  That may have been sold by the "rescuer" to someone else (an American collector, perhaps?).  And you should NOT assume that American Motown collectors would automatically sell it to a Brit just because The Northern Soul Scene values it more highly than an American collector would pay to get one.  Tom owed me a lot of money.  I had the choice of all his records to help pay his debt to me.  I could have taken "Do I Love You".  Had I done so, I would have kept it, rather than selling it for $30,000 or even $60,000 US.  I believe there are several other North American Motown collectors who wouldn't sell it off just because it can be sold for a LOT of money.

 

I'm sure there are a lot of rare Soul records, very valuable on The Northern scene, that are sitting in US Soul collectors' collections (many of whom don't buy on auctions - and those who DO, may change their buyer names periodically).

 

[purist]

Off on a tangent slightly - does the gap in Blue Rock's output correspond with the two different label designs, the pink and the blue?

 

[Robbk]

3 minutes ago, purist said:

Off on a tangent slightly - does the gap in Blue Rock's output correspond with the two different label designs, the pink and the blue?

 

Yes!  They went to the new design when they returned in 1968.  

[purist]

Thanks for the confirmation RobbK

 

[Guest rickwilkerson]

eBay listing on the Jimmy Hart Blue Rock goes live this evening.  Thanks again to everyone for their kind assistance, and good luck if you decide to bid.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/381705040897?

[neckender]

On 7 July 2016 at 22:55, rickwilkerson said:

I am a shop owner in Indianapolis and have just joined Soul Source though I've read it off and on for years.

What brings me to post:  I got in 2 copies of Jimmy Hart's Blue Rock single #4035, Sugar Baby/Tea House.  My searches indicate that this wasn't actually released on Blue Rock, that it was acetate only via Blue Rock and was only officially released on Mercury. 

I recently purchased a collection that came from an employee of the RPC pressing plant in Richmond, Indiana.  These 45's were in the collection.  Two stock copies, apparently unplayed, in company sleeves, yet there doesn't appear to be a record of their existence.

Anyone know the story on this record?  Thanks in advance.

My colleague has a red issue of the jimmy hart.  Not the same format as the copy that you have above; but follows the format of the dj copies with the full title.

[Robbk]

8 hours ago, neckender said:

My colleague has a red issue of the jimmy hart.  Not the same format as the copy that you have above; but follows the format of the dj copies with the full title.

That means that there was, at least, one regular pressing of the stock issue, in addition to the 6 press run test pressings, and that also means that 6 test pressings were made for the 2nd run.  It COULD be possible that if the two regular stock issue press runs were scheduled for the same day, that only the 2 test runs of 6 each were made, and then, both regular runs were cancelled.  But, the odds against that are probably hundreds to one.  So, it seems that at least one stock issue run was made, and perhaps even 2 were made.  Then, it is likely that they were called back from the pressing plant, or first receiving distributors, and destroyed.  Given that 2 different press runs of the stockers occurred, and, at least 3 escaped destruction,  we've got to assume that these are not as rare as we had previously surmised.

Although, they still must be fairly rare, as most of us have never seen one in all our years of searching.

[Tony Smith]

3 hours ago, RobbK said:

That means that there was, at least, one regular pressing of the stock issue, in addition to the 6 press run test pressings, and that also means that 6 test pressings were made for the 2nd run.  It COULD be possible that if the two regular stock issue press runs were scheduled for the same day, that only the 2 test runs of 6 each were made, and then, both regular runs were cancelled.  But, the odds against that are probably hundreds to one.  So, it seems that at least one stock issue run was made, and perhaps even 2 were made.  Then, it is likely that they were called back from the pressing plant, or first receiving distributors, and destroyed.  Given that 2 different press runs of the stockers occurred, and, at least 3 escaped destruction,  we've got to assume that these are not as rare as we had previously surmised.

Although, they still must be fairly rare, as most of us have never seen one in all our years of searching.

I think he means the red stock copy of the Mercury release not the Blue Rock.

[Robbk]

1 hour ago, Tony Smith said:

I think he means the red stock copy of the Mercury release not the Blue Rock.

Oh!  That makes a HUGE difference!  I then go back to my previous theory, that the 2 known Blue Rock store stock pressings are likely from the 6 press run test pressings, as none of us has ever seen one before.  And that makes them likely to be DEAD RARE.    So, good luck in getting as high a return as the market will bear (How much one person is willing to bid up the price).

[Garethx]

Is Jimmy Hart's "Sugar Baby" the exact same recording as Jimmy Holland's on Syco? Are they the same artist? Both Andre Williams productions and the Holland and Hart Blue Rock/Mercury recordings have consecutive master numbers. 

[Robbk]

15 hours ago, garethx said:

Is Jimmy Hart's "Sugar Baby" the exact same recording as Jimmy Holland's on Syco? Are they the same artist? Both Andre Williams productions and the Holland and Hart Blue Rock/Mercury recordings have consecutive master numbers. 

Interesting question, as Jimmy Holland was from Detroit and sang with The Holidays(Hollidays) (a Detroit group), and Andre Williams was a Detroit and Chicago producer, and Jimmy Holland also lived in Chicago, and worked also with Chicago labels.  While Jimmy Hart worked with Williams, and sang a Jobete Music song used by Motown artists (Four Tops), and sung it for a Chicago label (Mercury), which placed a fair amount of Detroit productions on its Blue Rock label.  And Jimmy Holland and Jimmy Hart have the same first name.  I think there may well be a good chance that Jimmy Holland was also Jimmy Hart. 

Otherwise, why wouldn't Jimmy Hart have showed up on other labels in Detroit and Chicago, and been known for singing in any groups???  I doubt that Mercury would sign a one shot artist, who had no other professional experience.  I do know that Andre Williams had been signed as Blue Rock's A&R man, and he also was supposed to oversee Mercury's Soul output at that time.  But would he have taken the risk to have Mercury sign, on his recommendation, a completely green talent?

Edited July 23, 2016 by RobbK

[Louise]

Hi Guys

Just to throw some intrigue in to the subject.

I've just asked Jimmy Holland about the above theory that he and Jimmy Hart are one and the same ?

He claims to have knowingly never recorded under the name of Jimmy Hart and upon playing him "Tea House In China Town" he claims to have never heard the record before (not even The Four Tops LP version) and assured me that it wasn't him singing. He's quite aware of "Sugar Baby" on Syco and Markie, which he recorded for Andre Williams at United Sound. The plot thickens !!

Dave

[Garethx]

Cheers for that Dave. Still be interested to know if the versions of "Sugar Baby" are identical. Same timing on the Hart and Holland 45s, which suggests at least the same band track.

[Louise]

Gareth I couldn't find a soundfile of Sugar Baby (Blue Rock )to play him, although he did say that Joe Hunter and the rest of the cast from Thr Funk Brothers played on the session. Possibly priviously having plenty practice with the Four Tops "Tea House In China Town" and "Don't Turn Away", LP session,maybe so, maybe no?

Dave

[Mick Holdsworth]

We need a music clip of Jimmy Hart - Sugar, to help sort it out. I can't find one anywhere. Jimmy Holland - Sugar and Jimmy Hart - Tea House definately sound like different artists (as confirmed by Jimmy Holland via Dave two posts up)

Probably a coincidence, and it doesn't help anything, but Jimmy Holland's Sugar sounds more like Tony Diamond - Don't Turn Away (also on Blue Rock and an Andre Williams Prod.), but thats just an impression I got, probably wrong, and also nothink really to do with this.

 

[Robbk]

It would be VERY surprising to me if Mercury had recorded different backing tracks for 2 different artists singing the same song (Jimmy Holland, Jimmy Hart and/or Tony Diamond), ESPECIALLY given that Andre Williams produced them all. 

I guess that Williams, as Mercury's A & R man (taking advantage of being with a high-budget major label), was trying out his songs on a few different artists, to see which would be the better one to promote (just as Motown did regularly).  Given Jimmy Holland's statement, I would guess that all three artists are different people.  Although, it's been a long time since I've heard the Jimmy Hart cuts.  I know, based on my memory of their voices, that Tony Diamond is not Jimmy Holland.

[Mick Holdsworth]

2 minutes ago, RobbK said:

 I know, based on my memory of their voices, that Tony Diamond is not Jimmy Holland.

OK Robb, as said it was just speculation, I just listened to them and "thought" they may be the same, but if not, then not.

Cheers
Mick

[Robbk]

7 minutes ago, Mick Holdsworth said:

OK Robb, as said it was just speculation, I just listened to them and "thought" they may be the same, but if not, then not.

Cheers
Mick

No!  I don't trust my 70-year old ears, or my memory of 5+ years ago over your ears, after currently listening to both.  So, we need several of us listening to both, to form a consensus.  One person's ears differentiating two very close voices are not enough.  One person with good ears might choose wrong.  but, I think we've proved that we have enough "good ears" on this forum, that a consensus of a lot of us is likely to be correct.

[Mick Holdsworth]

Here's all three records.

Tony Diamond - Don't Turn Away

 

Jimmy Holland - Sugar Baby

 

Jimmy Hart - Tea House in Chinatown

Cheers
Mick

 

Edited July 23, 2016 by Mick Holdsworth

[Robbk]

Upon listening to all 3 videos posted above, I have come to the conclusion that all 3 are different singers, as they seem to each have a unique tone that is discernably different from the others. 

[Louise]

I have a nagging recolection in the back of my head that Tony Diamond was a pseudonym used by a former group member of a well known Chicago group to record his one and only solo outing. Possibly The Chi-Lites but then again I might be wrong, need to think more about it.

Dave 

Edited July 23, 2016 by Louise

[Robbk]

35 minutes ago, Louise said:

I have a nagging recolection in the back of my head that Tony Diamond was a pseudonym used by a former group member of a well known Chicago group to record his one and only solo outing. Possibly The Chi-Lites but then again I might be wrong, need to think more about it.

Dave 

The Chi-Lites sounds wrong.  Are you confusing Tony Diamond with Tony Daniels?  He was a prolific Chicago songwriter, who was mostly a single artist, but WAS a member of a couple of Chicago Soul groups (I forget which right now, but, if I remember correctly, they were known locally, but not known all that much nationally - certainly nowhere near as well known as The Chi-Lites.   Tony Gideon was a member of The Daylighters.

Edited July 23, 2016 by RobbK

[Triode]

Tony Diamond formally of the Five Dutones........

[Mal C]

Just my first impression, first two very close, third different singer for sure.. I think the warble in the first two's voice is telling.. its very close...

[Tricky]

Didnt Tony Diamond also have a release on Capitol?

[Chalky]

Tony Diamond aka David Scott of the Five Dutones (as Paul mentioned) and The Chi-Lites as Dave mentioned.

[Robbk]

I've never seen nor heard of a Tony Diamond release on Capitol.  If anyone has it, please post scans of the two sides, and upload a snippet, if it's not too much trouble.  Then, we could match that voice to Jimmy Holland's, as well.

[Tony Smith]

1 hour ago, TRICKY said:

Didnt Tony Diamond also have a release on Capitol?

Yes, "I Don't Want To Lose You" Capitol 2418

Edited July 25, 2016 by Tony Smith

[Chalky]

16 minutes ago, RobbK said:

I've never seen nor heard of a Tony Diamond release on Capitol.  If anyone has it, please post scans of the two sides, and upload a snippet, if it's not too much trouble.  Then, we could match that voice to Jimmy Holland's, as well.

https://www.45cat.com/record/2418

[Robbk]

That's a 1969 Monk Higgins production for Wally Roker's group.  But Tony Diamond was a Chicago guy.  So, I assume it was recorded in Chicago, rather than L.A.  Does anyone know if it was on a Wally Roker label first (Canyon, Soul Clock,etc.) and picked up by Capitol?

Listening to it, he still sounds different from Jimmy Holland and Jimmy Hart.

Edited July 25, 2016 by RobbK

[Chalky]

 

[Chalky]

Tony Diamond sounds nothing like the other two to my ears.

[Roburt]

48 minutes ago, Tony Smith said:

Yes, "I Don't Want To Lose You" Capitol 2418

Either Monk asked him to sing in the wrong key OR this guy was having a really bad day vocally (he misses notes all over the place & strains in other passages).

Not lead singer material.