jesse fisher your not loving a beginner

[Sammy Seaman]

hi

can anybody answer this ?

jesse fisher -your not loving a beginner

is the rarer red and white issue a different take than the one on the multi coloured issue ?

thanks for your help

cheers

sammy

[Benji]

same take.

[Mike Lofthouse]

Why do I seem to see more copies of the 'rarer' Red & White issue than the multi coloured version?

[Sammy Seaman]

9 minutes ago, Mike Lofthouse said:

Why do I seem to see more copies of the 'rarer' Red & White issue than the multi coloured version?

I don`t had 3 multi and only one r/white in the last 3 years that's just my take on it

sammy

[Md Records]

According to the discography:-

Jesse Fisher has two pressings - first on the white label, a Boddie press, second on the red/yellow label. The two pressings have different EQ and mastering. The red/yellow one has much more bottom end, and sounds a little less crisp

Des

[Garethx]

The above is incorrect. The easiest way to tell what mix you have is by the record's title, rather than the label design.

The good mix is always titled "YOUR NOT LOVING A BEGINNER" and exists on both red/white and magenta/yellow labels.

The mix with radically different EQ is titled "YOU'RE NOT LOVING A BEGINNER" and is only on the red/white logo.

The different mixes have different matrix numbers: 104A for the YOUR… variant and 104A3 for the YOU'RE… version.

If you search soul-source topics on the subject Sebastian Fonzeus kindly provided a detailed comparison of the two sound files.

 

[Sammy Seaman]

5 hours ago, garethx said:

The above is incorrect. The easiest way to tell what mix you have is by the record's title, rather than the label design.

The good mix is always titled "YOUR NOT LOVING A BEGINNER" and exists on both red/white and magenta/yellow labels.

The mix with radically different EQ is titled "YOU'RE NOT LOVING A BEGINNER" and is only on the red/white logo.

The different mixes have different matrix numbers: 104A for the YOUR… variant and 104A3 for the YOU'RE… version.

If you search soul-source topics on the subject Sebastian Fonzeus kindly provided a detailed comparison of the two sound files.

 

cheers for that mine`s the YOU`RE not loving a beginner red/white issue ,

Edited June 15, 2016 by sammy seaman

[Garethx]

Should also state that rather than being different mixes the two are completely different recordings. Different vocal take and radically different guitar playing. 

[SLAMMINSOUL]

Yes they are two different takes.

The lyrics are different too if you listen closely.

Its the Red and white one for me.

I have both and they are different.

Thanks

Brian

Edited June 16, 2016 by SLAMMINSOUL

[Mike Lofthouse]

2 hours ago, SLAMMINSOUL said:

Yes they are two different takes.

The lyrics are different too if you listen closely.

Its the Red and white one for me.

I have both and the they are different.

Thanks

Brian

I thought Gareth said it was not the label design that indicated the 'better' mix/take rather than the title?  the good mix/take is on BOTH designs -  and that the 'inferior' mix/take is on Red and white only?  

[Roburt]

I'll ask Lou Ragland if he can shed any light on this matter. The B side of this 45 features a track listed as being from 69 -- "Waiting" 

... is that the same on both versions ??

[Guest]

 The best sound reproduction is on the red and white design with a larger runout groove, than the multi-coloured label copy.

The multi-coloured label copy has a muffled sound compared to the red and white design which has a cleaner sound reproduction.

The multi coloured copy has a small runout groove and the red and white has a wider run-out.  So they must be from different masters!

Edited June 15, 2016 by Guest

[Guest]

The red and white lable version that is spelled "You're" is the best version for me.  Clear recording and better production!

  The red and white and multicoloured labels spelled "Your" is not as good to me.  Sounds a bit muffled in comparison.

Always thought it's a great record since I first heard it way back in the 70's

Edited June 17, 2016 by Guest

[Garethx]

Solidsoul: be aware there are TWO MIXES or versions (104A and 104A3) on the red/white logo as detailed above.

The one which you refer to as having better sound production is less muffled, yes, but has too much top end and not enough bass. It's quite a pronounced difference.

There is one mix on the magenta/yellow logo: 104A. I don't think there is any sonic difference between the 104A copies on either red/white or magenta/yellow. Bear in mind there can be a difference in pressing quality between the beginning and end of a single pressing run as stampers get worn.

[Roburt]

I spoke to Lou and he confirmed that he had left Way Out by 1971 (he left in 70 to work with Hot Chocolate & they had their 45 "We Had True Love" - Co Co Cleveland - out by 71).

But he said that the common practice at Way Out, up to 1970, was to use Boddies to turn the master tapes into stampers. So I'd guess that the 1st version of this 45 was the Boddies one. 

[SLAMMINSOUL]

At the end of the of the song on the red and white he sings "I will tell you what I'm gonna do for you honey, I will sock it to your soul"

on the multi coloured version he sings "I will bring it to your soul" 

They are different takes or versions. Whatever you would like to call it but they are different. Sure listen for yourselves above. 

May I add The genius that is Mike Terry at work again. 

Ktf 

Brian

Edited June 17, 2016 by SLAMMINSOUL

[Benji]

Brian,

to me, he sings "bring it to you soul" in both videos. They sound like the same record. Only difference the record in the 2nd video plays faster, just a bit. But nevertheless faster.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Benji

[Guest Ivor Jones]

2 hours ago, SLAMMINSOUL said:

 

At the end of the of the song on the red and white he sings "I will tell you what I'm gonna do for you honey, I will sock it to your soul"

on the multi coloured version he sings "I will bring it to your soul" 

They are different takes or versions. Whatever you would like to call it but they are different. Sure listen for yourselves above. 

May I add The genius that is Mike Terry at work again. 

Ktf 

Brian

I too think thats the same version/mix in both clips Brian, with the Red/White copy sounding the better of the two. I have two versions, The multicolour issue as above and the White/Red copy which has the "Your'e" instead of "Your" in the title as Gareth pointed out earlier,which is definitely a different mix to both the above and is my personal favourite out of all of them. Less bass as Gareth pointed out but so much less muffled and clearer to listen to I think. Totally different vocals too. I remember pointing this out to Ady many years back and sticking them both on a tape for him. I used to have the Red/White version as above as well but sold it on years back. I always thought this a superb Northern side, still is ! 

[Roburt]

Numero bought up everything at Boddies after Thomas Boddie died. They put out a good release that contained the best of the stuff they found when they bought it.

The Boddies ran their outfit (recording, mastering, pressing of 45's & LPs) as a pure business concern. They didn't seem too bothered about focusing on the creative side of putting out records, that was left to the artists. They offered a service that made them money & it was the passage of time that did them in. Why update & install better equipment when you could make money utilising the old stuff (with no upgrade expenses to be financed).

But with time, the quality of their product was overtaken by competitors & only guys with less money to spend came to make use of their facilities. If you went to the added expense of hiring / using a high tech studio & decent musicians, why then go to an outdated facility to turn your master tapes into records. As those records would truly not be High Fidelity singles but lower grade items with more muffled sound quality.  

The Numero release utilised a few photos that still existed of earlier events that occurred during the Boddie's long recording adventure ...........

Numero's 'Boddies acetate 45 box' (3 x 7" singles featuring previously unreleased recordings) got some stick when it was issued but I liked the raw feeling of the cuts on display & even bought 2 sets as I'm a bit of a Cleveland soul nut.

[SLAMMINSOUL]

Thanks Benji for pointing that out. Sorry guys I dunno what's gone on there. I may have attached the wrong link. It's the same take alrite but the pictures are different. 

Please listen to this new link above. He sings "sock it to your soul"

It's different . The other link he clearly sings bring it to your soul. 

Thanks 

Brian 

Edited June 17, 2016 by SLAMMINSOUL

[SLAMMINSOUL]

I've edited my original post above to the alternate take. 

So sorry for the confusion. Thought I was going mad there 

Atb

Brian 

Edited June 17, 2016 by SLAMMINSOUL

[Garethx]

I have a feeling that the "Your Not Loving A Beginner" version (both red/white & magenta/yellow labels) was pressed at ARP in Michigan: the typesetting is very distinctive. I no longer have any copies of this 45, but it would be good if anyone who does have one could check. Their stamp was "ARP" in italic script. The plant burned down in 1972. I suspect the Boddie copies were pressed after this.

[Ted Massey]

i have the Your w/d and it has the ARP in the run outs

[Garethx]

Cheers Ted. Confirms what I remembered of it.

[Dave Pinch]

On Wednesday, June 15, 2016 at 11:54, garethx said:

Should also state that rather than being different mixes the two are completely different recordings. Different vocal take and radically different guitar playing. 

Been saying that for years Gareth. .. nobody listens to me tho.... different matrix on the label too

I think / know the multi colourd was 1st also

[Guest]

Very interesting reading all the comments.

I have the multi coloured copy but don't play it often due to the sound quality.

The information makes it clearer why this is.

Time to offload the multi coloured one and get the red and white issue.

Do they tend to be a similar price?

[Patto]

21 minutes ago, Vinyl Man said:

Very interesting reading all the comments.

I have the multi coloured copy but don't play it often due to the sound quality.

The information makes it clearer why this is.

Time to offload the multi coloured one and get the red and white issue.

Do they tend to be a similar price?

ive got the multi coloured copy and played it out a couple of time on a nice loud system and its fine.So really no need to offload them mate DJs have been playing them for years without any adverse dancefloor reaction.

[Mike Lofthouse]

38 minutes ago, Vinyl Man said:

Very interesting reading all the comments.

I have the multi coloured copy but don't play it often due to the sound quality.

The information makes it clearer why this is.

Time to offload the multi coloured one and get the red and white issue.

Do they tend to be a similar price?

Are you sure it has made it clearer for you?   As far as I understand it - you could well sell your multi coloured version and buy back the exact same mix/cut on red and white!  Gareth stated.....' There is one mix on the magenta/yellow logo: 104A. I don't think there is any sonic difference between the 104A copies on either red/white or magenta/yellow. '

And you know the multi coloured version does not sound that bad.    I have had mine since Ian Levine played it and wrote about it in his Black Music column of the day.  Any demand for it - and it was not great - was met a the time  by Soul Bowl and it was the multi coloured version they were selling.  Incidentally at the time I only recall hearing it at Wigan once and it was the instrumental 'Waiting' that was played.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Ted Massey said:

i have the Your w/d and it has the ARP in the run outs

My red and white issue has ARP stamped in the run out like your demo.  It is the "You're" title.

This is the clearer sounding version and has more verve and punch in his vocal!

Is there an red and yellow (multi-coloured) label copy with ARP stamped in the run out?

Edited June 17, 2016 by Guest

[Patto]

Just now, solidsoul said:

My red and white issue has ARP stamped in the run out like your demo.  It is the "You're" title.

This is the clearer sound version and the version that has more verve and punch in his vocal!

Is there an red and yellow label copy with ARP stamped in the run out?

My multi coloured copy is a YOUR copy and also has a ARP STAMP in the run out.Just played it again and it sounds fine to me.see scan

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, Mike Lofthouse said:

demand for it - and it was not great - was met a the time  by Soul Bowl and it was the multi coloured version they were selling. 

Soul Bowl used to put the multi-coloured copies in soul packs.  I had it in a pack at the time, and some others also got copies this way. 

I never knew of a red and white copy from a pack.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Guest

[Mike Lofthouse]

46 minutes ago, solidsoul said:

Soul Bowl used to put the multi-coloured copies in soul packs.  I had it in a pack at the time, and some others also got copies this way. 

I never knew of a red and white copy from a pack.

Mine was a individually priced 'front page' item.  Levine would often review them - then Soul bowl list them - this, Coetez Greer. L J Reynolds 'Cookin' spring to mind...

 

[Dave Pinch]

2 hours ago, Vinyl Man said:

Very interesting reading all the comments.

I have the multi coloured copy but don't play it often due to the sound quality.

The information makes it clearer why this is.

Time to offload the multi coloured one and get the red and white issue.

Do they tend to be a similar price?

most red/white copies play W104  take so are the same muffled version from the same stampers.. the re recording is W104A3 on red/white

[Dave Pinch]

On 16/06/2016 at 20:46, Benji said:

Brian,

to me, he sings "bring it to you soul" in both videos. They sound like the same record. Only difference the record in the 2nd video plays faster, just a bit. But nevertheless faster.

total re recording benji..different phrasing

[SLAMMINSOUL]

Thanks Dave. 

I'm not going mad so

My own fault!  I should of listened to the links first before posting them. I just assumed the sound bites matched the pictures and as they say,  assumption is the mother of all mistakes. 

 I have both copies n I could always differentiate between them when played out by the difference in phrase. 

If Mike Terry is on the credits you just know it's gonna rock. 

[KevH]

So just to recap - "YOUR" with ARP is the better version,multi colored 1st issue Dave.?

[Louise]

In November of 1965 with the help of Lou Ragland, for of us now using the name of the "Soul Notes" signed for Lester Johnson's Way-Out Label. Although several tracks were recorded only two 45's were released"How Long Will It Last/Don't Make Me Beg" (Way-Out 101) and "How Long Will It Last/I Got Everything You Need" (Way-Out 106). The intended flip to "I Got Everything You Need" was a song entitled "I've Been Waiting For Love" which had been written by myself, John Washington and Riki Dannison. We had gone as far as recording it but for reasons which remained unknown to us the song was pulled and replaced with a re-release of "How Long Will It Last".

"I've Been Waiting For Love" was later released under the different title of "Your Not Loving A Beginner" being recorded by Richard Fishers (Jive Five) younger brother Jesse, and with some of the original lyric's having been reworked by James Calloway.

An extract taken from the Sleeve notes of the cover of Bill Spoon's "A Spoonful Of Soul" Soul Junction SJLP5003 album.

Which Bill the former lead singer of the Soul Notes wrote himself. Bill also supplied us with a cut of the Soul Notes version of "I've Been Waiting For Love" a.k.a "Your Not Loving A Beginner" but unfortunately it was only a poorly recorded demo take with the backing band sounding as if they were playing in a building across the street hence the discision not to attempt to release it.

P.S It a surprise that one of the leading soul scribe's hasn't already plagerized Bill's notes, they must be slipping

Dave

Soul Junction

 

Edited June 18, 2016 by Louise

[Dave Pinch]

3 hours ago, KevH said:

So just to recap - "YOUR" with ARP is the better version,multi colored 1st issue Dave.?

i reckon so kev

[Chalky]

5 hours ago, Louise said:

In November of 1965 with the help of Lou Ragland, for of us now using the name of the "Soul Notes" signed for Lester Johnson's Way-Out Label. Although several tracks were recorded only two 45's were released"How Long Will It Last/Don't Make Me Beg" (Way-Out 101) and "How Long Will It Last/I Got Everything You Need" (Way-Out 106). The intended flip to "I Got Everything You Need" was a song entitled "I've Been Waiting For Love" which had been written by myself, John Washington and Riki Dannison. We had gone as far as recording it but for reasons which remained unknown to us the song was pulled and replaced with a re-release of "How Long Will It Last".

"I've Been Waiting For Love" was later released under the different title of "Your Not Loving A Beginner" being recorded by Richard Fishers (Jive Five) younger brother Jesse, and with some of the original lyric's having been reworked by James Calloway.

An extract taken from the Sleeve notes of the cover of Bill Spoon's "A Spoonful Of Soul" Soul Junction SJLP5003 album.

Which Bill the former lead singer of the Soul Notes wrote himself. Bill also supplied us with a cut of the Soul Notes version of "I've Been Waiting For Love" a.k.a "Your Not Loving A Beginner" but unfortunately it was only a poorly recorded demo take with the backing band sounding as if they were playing in a building across the street hence the discision not to attempt to release it.

P.S It a surprise that one of the leading soul scribe's hasn't already plagerized Bill's notes, they must be slipping

Dave

Soul Junction

 

Shame about the poor quality of the original take, would love to hear it and see it released.  

[Guest]

10 hours ago, KevH said:

So just to recap - "YOUR" with ARP is the better version,multi colored 1st issue

Yes if you like the muffled version!

The best, clear version is the Red and White label with Arp in the run out and the title YOU'RE.

This has been a very interesting topic for me and I have more knowledge about the different formats of this record now.

Edited June 18, 2016 by Guest

[Peter99]

On 6/16/2016 at 17:44, SLAMMINSOUL said:

At the end of the of the song on the red and white he sings "I will tell you what I'm gonna do for you honey, I will sock it to your soul"

on the multi coloured version he sings "I will bring it to your soul" 

They are different takes or versions. Whatever you would like to call it but they are different. Sure listen for yourselves above. 

May I add The genius that is Mike Terry at work again. 

Ktf 

Brian

Thanks for posting them both up. I'm deaf - but they are very different. The Your is far more soulful and less harsh in my opinion.

Peter

[Len]

I like the instrumental - The other side of the multi coloured one (That's what I have anyway) Listen to it all the way through, it's brilliant 

Len  

[Louise]

25 minutes ago, LEN said:

I like the instrumental - The other side of the multi coloured one (That's what I have anyway) Listen to it all the way through, it's brilliant 

Len  

Hey Len

RE: The previous Bill Spoon & The Soul Notes post, hence the reason the instrumental flip of Jesse Fisher being credited as " Waiting" 

Dave

P.S I've got a great snake story to tell you the next time I see ya out and about !

[KevH]

Right,listened to it again,and its obvious on the first line.

Multi - "Your'e not loviing a beginnner,,COS I've been loving a long long time."

Red & White does not have COS in the lyric.

This thread reminds me of Ronnie McNeir "boot",on DeTo.....the one with the different lyrics / take..........

[Garethx]

Bear in mind Kev that both versions are available on red and white. 

[Peter99]

7 hours ago, garethx said:

Bear in mind Kev that both versions are available on red and white. 

[Chalky]

I onow of the different takes/versions but we don't half make it hard for ourselves.  Can someone simply post the soundfile and the respective lable details for each soundfile rather than decifer this topic.

[Garethx]

Simple Chalky:

The easiest way to tell is the title.

"YOUR NOT LOVING A BEGINNER" matrix W104A. The "muffled" one. Available on all Magenta/Yellow labelled copies, but also on some Red/White labelled copies.

"YOU'RE NOT LOVING A BEGINNER" matrix W104A3. The one with too much top end in the mix. Only on the remainder of the Red/White labelled stock. 

I'd say both these were pressed at ARP and the information above about the Boddie pressing plant is a red herring. Some later Way Out releases may have been pressed there and at Rite Pressing, but those look really different.

As to which is the best version I'd say opinion is split down the middle. Personally I think the "muffled" one is musically superior and I can live with the muddiness of the mix. Others I'm sure will disagree with me and are free to do so!

[Roburt]

Some info from https://www.45rpmrecords.com/  ..........

So the two Way Out releases before BEGINNER were both Plated & Pressed by / at Boddies .... seems to me that some copies of BEGINNER would come from master lacquers (that become the A or B side stampers used to press up the actual records) made at Boddies (but guessing here) ...

.... 1st table is Way Out release info .... 2nd table is Boddie's Pressing Info ..... after early 72 (when 2nd table ends) just about every record pressed by Boddies was for his own releases (i.e. Bounty, Soul Kitchen, Soul Mine releases OR indie gospel recordings that Boddie would have done the whole thing for -- recording, plating, stamping, pressing up limited numbers of each 45 made).  

Boddies numbering system was quite easy to follow, 1st 2 numbers relate to the year ... 70, 71, 72, etc.  

.... so  Day-Wood #6901 Imperial Wonders "Just A Dream" was job 1 in 1969 .... 

.... AND ....  J&W Records #M-7028 Bro David Watt "Alright" was job 28 in 1970 hence #7028

other numbers after that (in say 7169 so the 69) must be the job number. BUT there are missing numbers (7168) but these could have been cuts laid down that never made it to the stamper / pressing stage.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Roburt

[Garethx]

Neither of these Jesse Fishers were pressed at Boddie. They were pressed at ARP. The label copy is ARP and they are both stamped as such. Owners of both releases have confirmed they have ARP stamps.

What makes you think they are Boddie presses?

Edited June 20, 2016 by garethx