John Legend=am I Missing Something Here

[Codfromderby]

just been round my parents house and flicked through the channels on their sky box thing, a couple of hip young things were introducing a video describing it as "crucial" "this man has put the sex and soul back into soul", on the screen comes mr legend and.... it was very average, am i missing something, or is it a case of the emperors new clothes

(as you can see from this post i dont keep abreast of much new music as ive been told mr legend has been around ages)

[Guest Trevski]

just been round my parents house and flicked through the channels on their sky box thing, a couple of hip young things were introducing a video describing it as "crucial" "this man has put the sex and soul back into soul", on the screen comes mr legend and.... it was very average, am i missing something, or is it a case of the emperors new clothes

(as you can see from this post i dont keep abreast of much new music as ive been told mr legend has been around ages)

No not missed a thing Total bollocks, as was discussed a few weeks ago. Decidedly average at best, IMHO. What is it with so called soul these days? It's either shite what passes for 'R 'n' B' as they call it, or the old Alexander O'Neil type "I'm a loverman, lets get it on baby' type rubbish.

Edited October 8, 2006 by Trevski

[Petebangor]

No not missed a thing Total bollocks, as was discussed a few weeks ago. Decidedly average at best, IMHO. What is it with so called soul these days? It's either shite what passes for 'R 'n' B' as they call it, or the old Alexander O'Neil type "I'm a loverman, lets get it on baby' type rubbish.

I take it your on about 'Save Room' not his best granted,but he has turned out some quality stuff.'Ordinary People' and 'Live It Up' immediately spring to mind.Perhaps Cod needs to land lucky at his parents house and catch his decent tracks on the new fangled Sky box thingy

As for Trev's Alexander O Neal analogy

[Mike]

moved to correct forum

[Guest WPaulVanDyk]

John Legend is a great R & B singer however to nail soul music now is to look at Lemar who i think is the best soul singer from last 5 years he ain't your typical black singer doing R & B or Rap but instead prefering soul.

[Guest]

just been round my parents house and flicked through the channels on their sky box thing, a couple of hip young things were introducing a video describing it as "crucial" "this man has put the sex and soul back into soul", on the screen comes mr legend and.... it was very average, am i missing something, or is it a case of the emperors new clothes

(as you can see from this post i dont keep abreast of much new music as ive been told mr legend has been around ages)

What about his tune Radio 2 keep playing which is a TOTAL RIP-OFF of "STORMY"

love to know gets the credits on his version, pretty awful version of the Classics IV song.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

As I said on another SS posting (more-or-less), the fact that people (and I'm talking about people in general, here, not Sourcers - most of whom should know better) are prepared to except the mediocre vocals and music of John Legend as being "essential", "fantastic" and "unbelievable", is a sad indictment on how low the standards of acceptability now have become in mainstream black music.

He's not even as good as the likes of Johnny Gill, Freddie Jackson, Alexander O' Neal or Luther Vandross, much less Al Green or Marvin Gaye, and if he's the spritual successor to Chuck Jackson, Ben E King and Roy Hamilton then Grits really ain't Groceries...

As I also said elsewhere of SS, the 'Legend' is all in his own mind. The man's complete pants and not worth a tanner, much less a tenner, of anyone's hard earned...

TONE

[Winnie :-)]

As I said on another SS posting (more-or-less), the fact that people (and I'm talking about people in general, here, not Sourcers - most of whom should know better) are prepared to except the mediocre vocals and music of John Legend as being "essential", "fantastic" and "unbelievable", is a sad indictment on how low the standards of acceptability now have become in mainstream black music.

He's not even as good as the likes of Johnny Gill, Freddie Jackson, Alexander O' Neal or Luther Vandross, much less Al Green or Marvin Gaye, and if he's the spritual successor to Chuck Jackson, Ben E King and Roy Hamilton then Grits really ain't Groceries...

As I also said elsewhere of SS, the 'Legend' is all in his own mind. The man's complete pants and not worth a tanner, much less a tenner, of anyone's hard earned...

TONE

============

Tone,

In the 6Ts and 7Ts vocalists with the quality of Marvin Gaye and Aretha, for example were required by the record producers at say Motown or Atlantic. This in turn would have spawned a lot of imitators as smaller record companies looked for similar quality to make their fortune. Skip forward X amount of years, the record producers aren't looking for the same ability, because the public aren't demanding it anymore. Step forward 'lesser voices' to take your place in the spotlight. I think musical tastes are fashioned by what's popular, hence sub-standard artists (in comparison to a 6Ts singer) come to the fore of soul music.

The above sort of makes sense to me, (not saying I'm right by the way) but I may have tried to condense it too much to make sense to anybody else.......soz

[Guest Trevski]

============

Tone,

In the 6Ts and 7Ts vocalists with the quality of Marvin Gaye and Aretha, for example were required by the record producers at say Motown or Atlantic. This in turn would have spawned a lot of imitators as smaller record companies looked for similar quality to make their fortune. Skip forward X amount of years, the record producers aren't looking for the same ability, because the public aren't demanding it anymore. Step forward 'lesser voices' to take your place in the spotlight. I think musical tastes are fashioned by what's popular, hence sub-standard artists (in comparison to a 6Ts singer) come to the fore of soul music.

The above sort of makes sense to me, (not saying I'm right by the way) but I may have tried to condense it too much to make sense to anybody else.......soz

Quite right Win, The 'general public' are fed watered down crap, which they blindly accept, so why should companies look for real talent Just look at the talentless nonentities on X-factor! all this 'warbling' that passes for emotion or soul, Pants! I once heard that all the warbling is to hide the fact that they are inferior singers who can't hold a note!

Edited October 9, 2006 by Trevski

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Quite right Win, The 'general public' are fed watered down crap, which they blindly accept, so why should companies look for real talent Just look at the talentless nonentities on X-factor! all this 'warbling' that passes for emotion or soul, Pants! I once heard that all the warbling is to hide the fact that they are inferior singers who can't hold a note!

IMO, the person whose feet we have to lay the blame for all of this at, is Bobby Brown. Once he became as enormous as he was, at the end of the 80s, on the basis of having negligible to no singing ability whatsoever, producers and labels were automatically no longer required to maintain any quality control. (Even Willie Mitchell once told me, when I asked him why he'd smothered the latest albums by Otis Clay and Ann Peebles in computerised bass and drum patters, that "I gotta grab a little of that Bobby Brown action, Gates". I didn't like to tell him that the people who like Otis and Ann wouldn't touch "That Bobby Brown Action" with a ten foot pole, but...)

...and on the female side, we have to point the finger at Janet Jackson who a) must have got her first deal simply because she was a Jackson and was somehow made into the benchmark artist for commercial 80s soul, becuse producers were queueing up to work with her in the hope that it might have led to a gig with her strange but inarguably more talented (whether you like him or not) brother.

Once people didn't have to sing properly anymore, the standards for what makes a good singer plummeted. That's why someone like John Legend - your average pub karakoe singer - gets singled out as something special. In comparison with the likes of most young black males of today, he is. Fortunately most of us who have standards and who have heard enough real singers in our years of collecting to know better. I hope....

TONE

PS Probably the best singer of the last 20 years, again IMO, is Gerald Levert. I'm sure having a role model like Eddie Levert for a dad must have helped a bit there

[Guest Goldwax]

IMO, the person whose feet we have to lay the blame for all of this at, is Bobby Brown. Once he became as enormous as he was, at the end of the 80s, on the basis of having negligible to no singing ability whatsoever, producers and labels were automatically no longer required to maintain any quality control. (Even Willie Mitchell once told me, when I asked him why he'd smothered the latest albums by Otis Clay and Ann Peebles in computerised bass and drum patters, that "I gotta grab a little of that Bobby Brown action, Gates". I didn't like to tell him that the people who like Otis and Ann wouldn't touch "That Bobby Brown Action" with a ten foot pole, but...)

...and on the female side, we have to point the finger at Janet Jackson who a) must have got her first deal simply because she was a Jackson and was somehow made into the benchmark artist for commercial 80s soul, becuse producers were queueing up to work with her in the hope that it might have led to a gig with her strange but inarguably more talented (whether you like him or not) brother.

Once people didn't have to sing properly anymore, the standards for what makes a good singer plummeted. That's why someone like John Legend - your average pub karakoe singer - gets singled out as something special. In comparison with the likes of most young black males of today, he is. Fortunately most of us who have standards and who have heard enough real singers in our years of collecting to know better. I hope....

TONE

PS Probably the best singer of the last 20 years, again IMO, is Gerald Levert. I'm sure having a role model like Eddie Levert for a dad must have helped a bit there

I can think of a lot worse vocal performances by artisits put of the Northern 'Soul' hall of fame pedistal than that of Mr. Legend. Seen him live a couple of times and thought he really put his heart and soul into it. Pretty unique voice that no doubt would be quite sort over if laid onto a rare sixties track or two.Bit of a pima donna granted, but then who in the entertainment industry makes it without a slight enlarged ego - then or now? I see your point on the standards slipping over the years but I don't think the vocal gene has disapeared from black America.

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

I can think of a lot worse vocal performances by artisits put of the Northern 'Soul' hall of fame pedistal than that of Mr. Legend. Seen him live a couple of times and thought he really put his heart and soul into it. Pretty unique voice that no doubt would be quite sort over if laid onto a rare sixties track or two.Bit of a pima donna granted, but then who in the entertainment industry makes it without a slight enlarged ego - then or now? I see your point on the standards slipping over the years but I don't think the vocal gene has disapeared from black America.

...I've seen him live, too. Yes, he was pants, a tenth rate Stevie Wonder wannabe with less than a hundredth of Stevie's talent. You're right in that the vocal gene hasn't disappeared from black America, but it's almost impossible to find evidence of outside of the church and Gospel music. Two things that do not seem to have figured too high on the list of Mr. legend's influences, as far as I can tell...

It's actually quite immoral that he's won Grammys (or has, at least, been nominated for same). Especially when you consider how many Grammys that Willie Hutch, O.V. Wright, William Bell, Luther Ingram, Otis Redding, Freddie Jackson, Teddy Pendergrass, Marvin Junior, Sam Cooke. Little Richard, Bobby Bland et al have never won (or were nominated for) between them...

TONE

[Guest Goldwax]

...I've seen him live, too. Yes, he was pants, a tenth rate Stevie Wonder wannabe with less than a hundredth of Stevie's talent. You're right in that the vocal gene hasn't disappeared from black America, but it's almost impossible to find evidence of outside of the church and Gospel music. Two things that do not seem to have figured too high on the list of Mr. legend's influences, as far as I can tell...

It's actually quite immoral that he's won Grammys (or has, at least, been nominated for same). Especially when you consider how many Grammys that Willie Hutch, O.V. Wright, William Bell, Luther Ingram, Otis Redding, Freddie Jackson, Teddy Pendergrass, Marvin Junior, Sam Cooke. Little Richard, Bobby Bland et al have never won (or were nominated for) between them...

TONE

Oh come on. Sam Cooke's SAR records comp did get a nomination for best sleeve notes in 1995

[Guest soul_hull]

[pardon me as not read whole thread...]

anyhoo.....read a book recently 'is it me, or is everything sh*t' and it's 100% hilarious. it's a bit like grumpy old men without the old - just this guy ranting about things he hates. top funny.

anyhoo, one of the things he hates.......a certain type of soul which he describes as 'disney does gospel'

i think we know what he means - all that crazy-assed warbling and stuff. stick it.

[Daved]

Personally I think John Legend is a real talent. His first CD is a classic. It may not be instant but it's great material. Granted, he isn't as good as Stevie Wonder and Donny Hathaway and I don't really think his trying to copy them. He has his own unique style for this decade and I'm looking forward to the new CD.

[Cunnie]

Quite funny this as quite a few of the folks on this thread who are slagging off John Legend are on the Amy Whinehouse thread saying how good they think her "Rehab" publicity stunt is.

No comparison IMO.

I'm not saying Save Room is the best record ever made, far from it but it ain't that bad.

Now picture this scenario. JL chose not to release Save Room & it lied in the vaults for years until some enterprising DJ or record dealer stumbled on it & cut it onto an acetate & stuck a Motown artists name on it.

Not as far fetched as it sounds with the Stormy connection.

End result - Northern monster. Seen it happen before haven't we

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Personally I think John Legend is a real talent. His first CD is a classic.

....No, 'a classic' is something that you will still be listening to with unbridled admiration in 35-40 years time, as I still am (along with many others) with Bobby Bland's "Two Steps From The Blues", O.V. Wright's "If It's Only For Tonight" and "Moods Of Marvin Gaye", for example...

I would be extremely surprised if you didn't take your John Legend CD off the shelf in even 10 years time, look at it, shake your head ruefully and wonder what on Earth ever possessed you to spend ten to fifteen quid on it in the first place ...

TONE

[Gert Mark]

Its just that record companys are more clued up, business wise.

Back in the day, artists were singers, musicians and performers long before they got in a recording studio, so IMHO the cream rose (the music exec's most common defence).

What happens now is the record company are so savvy that the whole package is sorted before it goes to press, musical talent is only a part of the whole saleable commodity with looks, personality etc.

You just need to look how much of a huge point they make of it when someone writes and records their own material, its always like theyre the new Lennon or Lady Day.

Its just that the job has changed, people like Legend,or even the Spice Girls or Westlife et al are just as professional at what they do. We just listen to music from a different era, not just musicaly, but on a business level too.

M

[Guest Dodger]

....No, 'a classic' is something that you will still be listening to with unbridled admiration in 35-40 years time, as I still am (along with many others) with Bobby Bland's "Two Steps From The Blues", O.V. Wright's "If It's Only For Tonight" and "Moods Of Marvin Gaye", for example...

I would be extremely surprised if you didn't take your John Legend CD off the shelf in even 10 years time, look at it, shake your head ruefully and wonder what on Earth ever possessed you to spend ten to fifteen quid on it in the first place ...

TONE

Heard any of these Tone?

Donald Harrison Jr. ft. Denise Hudson - You Love Me Back (3D Vol. 1 - 2006)

Trizonna McLendon - Remedy (Overtones & Innuendos - 2006)

Freddie Jackson - Heaven (Transitions - 2006)

Bernard James - Struggle (Today - 2006)

Miki Howard - Lowdown (Pillow Talk Miki Howard Sings The Classics - 2006)

Marcell & The Truth - Breathe Love (Hopes Too High - 2006)

Batiste - U (remix) (Batiste - 2006)

Boney James ft. Faith Evans - Gonna Get It (Shine - 2006)

Maylyn Murphy - Dream Come True (Body & Soul - 2006)

Ray Robinson - My Heart (What It Is - 2006)

Lilla D'Mone - Forever And A Day (Music Trance - 2006)

Allon Sams ft. 3am - You Remain the Same (Music And Laughter - 2004)

Franklin & Charlena Crouch - Where Did Love Go (Survivor - 2006)

Talein - You Need A Saviour (Don't Turn Your Back On God - 2006)

Meka King - Won't Be Like That (Count It All Joy - 2006)

Dave Hollister - No One (Book Of David Vol. 1 The Transition - 2006)

Khalil - We Kicked It (Tease U Please U - 2006)

Keisha White - Baby Come To Me (Out Of My Hands - 2006)

Terisa Griffin - Love Changes (My Naked Soul - 2006)

Tim Dillinger - That's What I Feel (The Muse - 2006)

Deni Hines - Ghetto Heaven (Water For Chocolate - 2006)

Nyr - Amazed By Your Smile (2 Funky Playlist Vol 1 & Nyr - 2006)

Plenty of great quality soul music still being released today if you look in the right places, and not every single artist tries to copy artists of years gone by, I think that's just in your own mind.

Roger

[Guest]

Here's Ray Robinson from Rogers list.

New out on 2Funky soon I think.

myheart.mp3

[Codfromderby]

Here's Ray Robinson from Rogers list.

New out on 2Funky soon I think.

sorry and all that ,but thats worse than the efforts from mr legend himself, as i said at the start "am i missing something"

as a fan of soul and northern stuff for over 30 years every time i hear a john legend or litehouse family called soul i wince at all the 45,s ive dismissed by great artists, played them once and sold them on or never played them because i knew they were ten bob records

soul is bobby bland

northern is jerry fuller

as for mr legend and his stuff, keep it in 40 something, radio two, mondao driving,golf playing, middle aged,....... run of the mill......music thats listened to by people who have plastic lives

sorry its orrible

[Mark R]

Edited October 10, 2006 by Mark R

[Jordirip]

Its just that record companys are more clued up, business wise.

Back in the day, artists were singers, musicians and performers long before they got in a recording studio, so IMHO the cream rose (the music exec's most common defence).

What happens now is the record company are so savvy that the whole package is sorted before it goes to press, musical talent is only a part of the whole saleable commodity with looks, personality etc.

You just need to look how much of a huge point they make of it when someone writes and records their own material, its always like theyre the new Lennon or Lady Day.

Its just that the job has changed, people like Legend,or even the Spice Girls or Westlife et al are just as professional at what they do. We just listen to music from a different era, not just musicaly, but on a business level too.

M

I don't know how "savvy" the record companies are, I would say lazy and greedy and not even intertested in music. They might as well be selling shampoo for all they're bothered, so long as they're shifting units. If they have a product that sells eg Beyonce and Destiny's child, then rather than sign other different style acts, they will only sign acts that are like Beyonce. This in turn sends signals to the acts that in order to get signed they must be like Beyonce, so their music then becomes what they think the record companies want. There must be loads of great singers doing great material who never get a look in because they don't tick the appropriate record company boxes. Every decade has produced brilliant soul singers, this decade is no different but convincing record companies and radio stations etc to get behind them is a different matter, when they would rather go down the tried and tested Beyonce route.

Jordi

[Guest Trevski]

Here's Ray Robinson from Rogers list.

New out on 2Funky soon I think.

AAARRRGHHHH Wishy-washy, late nite smoochin, sugary, sentimental, bland, soul-less, weak, can't sing, talentless, warbling, CRAP! Even worse than J Legend! NO MORE PLEASE :angry:

Edited October 10, 2006 by Trevski

[Guest Dodger]

I don't know how "savvy" the record companies are, I would say lazy and greedy and not even intertested in music. They might as well be selling shampoo for all they're bothered, so long as they're shifting units. If they have a product that sells eg Beyonce and Destiny's child, then rather than sign other different style acts, they will only sign acts that are like Beyonce. This in turn sends signals to the acts that in order to get signed they must be like Beyonce, so their music then becomes what they think the record companies want. There must be loads of great singers doing great material who never get a look in because they don't tick the appropriate record company boxes. Every decade has produced brilliant soul singers, this decade is no different but convincing record companies and radio stations etc to get behind them is a different matter, when they would rather go down the tried and tested Beyonce route.

Jordi

Spot on Jordi, most major label black music output these days is no more than shitty black pop music, mass produced to make millions (which sadly it often does). it's a sad state of affairs that people like Glenn Jones, Stephanie Mills, Jeffrey Osborne and countless classic soul artists still making great music now are unable to get major label deals.

It's also laughable that some of the members of this forum believe that that's all that constitutes current soul music being made today, just because it's not rough, out of tune and sounds like it was recorded in a tin shed, it smacks of ignorance if you ask me.

Roger

[Guest Dodger]

AAARRRGHHHH Wishy-washy, late nite smoochin, sugary, sentimental, bland, soul-less, weak, can't sing, talentless, warbling, CRAP! Even worse than J Legend! NO MORE PLEASE :angry:

I bet you think Pierre Hunt "I've Got To Have Your Love" is a great record!!

[Guest Trevski]

I bet you think Pierre Hunt "I've Got To Have Your Love" is a great record!!

No need to laugh so loud Doger, yer head might fall off! Actualy, compared to that crap, FOOTSEE is a great record You cannot seriously think that Ray Robinson is good?? I really do not see any redeeming qualities in it whatsoever.To me, it really is all I described it as. WHY do singers of this ilk, have to warble on every note held longer than 2seconds, with that pathetic tremulous voice? Is it supposed to sound like emotion? soul? It just sounds formulaic, and boring Come on, a joke is a joke, but thats going too far!

Edited October 10, 2006 by Trevski

[Guest Dodger]

No need to laugh so loud Doger, yer head might fall off! Actualy, compared to that crap, FOOTSEE is a great record You cannot seriously think that Ray Robinson is good?? I really do not see any redeeming qualities in it whatsoever.To me, it really is all I described it as. WHY do singers of this ilk, have to warble on every note held longer than 2seconds, with that pathetic tremulous voice? Is it supposed to sound like emotion? soul? It just sounds formulaic, and boring Come on, a joke is a joke, but thats going too far!

Trev, you're entitled to your opinion mate. Ray Robinson is a very good contemporary artist and that's a quality track, it's far from crap, and you are completely and utterly wrong in what you're saying.

But that's just my opinion.

Cheers

Roger

[Guest]

I don't know how "savvy" the record companies are, I would say lazy and greedy and not even intertested in music. They might as well be selling shampoo for all they're bothered, so long as they're shifting units. If they have a product that sells eg Beyonce and Destiny's child, then rather than sign other different style acts, they will only sign acts that are like Beyonce. This in turn sends signals to the acts that in order to get signed they must be like Beyonce, so their music then becomes what they think the record companies want. There must be loads of great singers doing great material who never get a look in because they don't tick the appropriate record company boxes. Every decade has produced brilliant soul singers, this decade is no different but convincing record companies and radio stations etc to get behind them is a different matter, when they would rather go down the tried and tested Beyonce route.

Jordi

While I agree with everything you say here Jordi, I would say part of the problem is that even SOME of the NON major label artists are following that same route that goes nowhere too.

Unfortunately, when those mediocre artists are constantly trumpeted as 'great' it damages the stuff that actually IS good (because there is good stuff ) on smaller labels or infact no label at all.

Add to that a new problem which is that suddenly everyone and anyone has the chance to be an A&R man and has access to new recordings which previously at least had been through the usual process required to make sure it was of some sort of releasable quality in the ears of people with experience.

When it was Berry Gordy, Willie Mitchell or someone like Ed Wingate or Gamble And Huff or Jam & Lewis making the desicions at least the good stuff had some chance of rising to the top because it had been some sort of selection process by a record company, big or small and had therefore been given the benefit of the companies music men, people who knew what they were doing.

New Soul is in constant danger of being lost in a morass of below average, boring and uncontrolled poop because of the way it is being presented.

The constant race to be the first one to have something that no one else has and be playing something new and unavailable..whatever the quality...is a recipe for disaster. That race is making people brand so many below average things as good. That in itself will damage the reputaion of new Soul.

Remember we are talking about NEW music here...not the madness of the Northern Soul scene and the chase for old DANCE RECORDS...and that is an important distinction. The Northern Scene has always looked to the past and occasionally to the present with an eye on the past.

[Daved]

Simon, whilst I agree with most of what you say in the first 5 paragraphs, I struggle to find the link to the last 2. The lack of major record label support for good artists is a completely separate issue to what a tiny minority of over 30s (40s!) dance to in grotty bars in the UK.

Even if there wasn't this big chase for the next exclusive, it wouldn't make any difference to the major record label's attitude. The modern soul scene constitutes very, very small sales.

[Winnie :-)]

Spot on Jordi, most major label black music output these days is no more than shitty black pop music, mass produced to make millions (which sadly it often does). it's a sad state of affairs that people like Glenn Jones, Stephanie Mills, Jeffrey Osborne and countless classic soul artists still making great music now are unable to get major label deals.

It's also laughable that some of the members of this forum believe that that's all that constitutes current soul music being made today, just because it's not rough, out of tune and sounds like it was recorded in a tin shed, it smacks of ignorance if you ask me.

Roger

==============

Perhaps there could be a current soul section, not that I'm advocating one, I'm quite happy with soul music in general being discussed in all about soul, but some obviously aren't.

I would say, that I recognise within myself, I'm far more likely to enjoy something with a powerful vocal, but thats because I've been bought up on such stuff. I realise thats a predjudice on my part, so try not to label something as soul-less just because it doesn't fit into my particular take.

Winnie:-)

[Guest Dodger]

Unfortunately, when those mediocre artists are constantly trumpeted as 'great' it damages the stuff that actually IS good (because there is good stuff ) on smaller labels or infact no label at all.

I'd be genuinely interested to hear examples of the current stuff that you consider to be good, Simon?

[Jordirip]

It's simply about making money. The music industry hardly exists anymore. It isn't about selling records, as I said before it might as well be shampoo or dog biscuits (eh??) but the thing is that they don't have to sell the music, they sell the image. They sell the lifestyle through videos. Nasty tin can tat bling dripping off some talentless thug or bimbo sells much more to the young impressionable crowd than someone with genuine talent like Adrianna Evans. Gone are the days when musical excellence, or in the case of rap music intelligence, counted for anything. I feel a rant coming on ...... think I'll have me dinner.

Jordi

[Guest ShaneH]

Spot on Jordi, most major label black music output these days is no more than shitty black pop music, mass produced to make millions (which sadly it often does). it's a sad state of affairs that people like Glenn Jones, Stephanie Mills, Jeffrey Osborne and countless classic soul artists still making great music now are unable to get major label deals.

It's also laughable that some of the members of this forum believe that that's all that constitutes current soul music being made today, just because it's not rough, out of tune and sounds like it was recorded in a tin shed, it smacks of ignorance if you ask me.

Roger

i reckon you would hear a lot more modern soul in a northern soul venue than vice-versa so what does that tell you?

many modern soul fans call the northern soul brigade 'blinkered' etc but in my experience the modern rooms are the ones lacking diversity imo.

Shane

Shane

[Guest Dodger]

many modern soul fans call the northern soul brigade 'blinkered' etc but in my experience the modern rooms are the ones lacking diversity imo.

The ignorance I was talking about was in people believing that the only soul music being made today is the shit that gets in the charts or on the telly.

[Guest ShaneH]

The ignorance I was talking about was in people believing that the only soul music being made today is the shit that gets in the charts or on the telly.

i doubt that dodger to be honest. how many people attend the weekenders such as prestatyn, cleethorpes. fleetwood etc? i am sure the vast majority have popped their heads (for a second or two ) into the modern rooms and heard the new stuff.

i think you are under-estimating the members on here

Shane

[Winnie :-)]

i reckon you would hear a lot more modern soul in a northern soul venue than vice-versa so what does that tell you?

many modern soul fans call the northern soul brigade 'blinkered' etc but in my experience the modern rooms are the ones lacking diversity imo.

Shane

=================

Wouldn't really expect to hear northen in modern rooms though because that would be a backwards step don't you think? You do hear lots of 7Ts, which is becoming increasingly popular in northern rooms IMO, so they can't be that blinkered

I know some of the modern boys probably see 7Ts being played as retrograde, but it is a learning curve albeit a slow one

[Guest Dodger]

i doubt that dodger to be honest. how many people attend the weekenders such as prestatyn, cleethorpes. fleetwood etc? i am sure the vast majority have popped their heads (for a second or two ) into the modern rooms and heard the new stuff.

i think you are under-estimating the members on here

Shane

Not at all Shane, I'm fully aware this forum has a wide ranging membership, the majority of whom probably have wide ranging taste and accept good music from whatever genre. I'm only basing my comments on what I glean from some of the more extreme postings on here, I'm not for a second generalising about the whole membership.

[Guest ShaneH]

Not at all Shane, I'm fully aware this forum has a wide ranging membership, the majority of whom probably have wide ranging taste and accept good music from whatever genre. I'm only basing my comments on what I glean from some of the more extreme postings on here, I'm not for a second generalising about the whole membership.

fair enough

[Guest]

Simon, whilst I agree with most of what you say in the first 5 paragraphs, I struggle to find the link to the last 2. The lack of major record label support for good artists is a completely separate issue to what a tiny minority of over 30s (40s!) dance to in grotty bars in the UK.

Even if there wasn't this big chase for the next exclusive, it wouldn't make any difference to the major record label's attitude. The modern soul scene constitutes very, very small sales.

Agreed , the lack of 'major labels support etc' is woeful...but Soul music is hardly a major lable concern and in fact hasn't been for years. And lets face it, when there was support it was for either dance music ..or someone like Whitney who was always on the pop side or Luther who was always going to appeal to the same mainstream as Simply Red.

But I've said before..Soul doesn't get the respect Jazz does and partly because so much new stuff is third rate. And at the rate it's going, it will never get that respect.

So if Soul is largely underground then yes, when they bother with a Soul artist the major labels are going to go for the obvious like John Legend, but the underground is always going to have its own agenda. In this case, given the nature of UK Soul music afficiandos for many, many years, then the appeal will be towards obscurity. And what is more obscure than a track which is not available in solid tangible form and is unfettered by the restrictions..or benefits ..of major label involvement ?

Therefore, what we are being told is 'great' is often not great at all...it's just obscure. Don't get me wrong, I know the Northern Scene is guilty of the same thing too. But some people seem to be intent on slagging the Northern Scene but actually act in a worse and more trainspotting way... and are quite happy to piggyback off of that bigger scene too.

[Guest Dodger]

Therefore, what we are being told is 'great' is often not great at all...it's just obscure. Don't get me wrong, I know the Northern Scene is guilty of the same thing too. But some people seem to be intent on slagging the Northern Scene but actually act in a worse and more trainspotting way... and are quite happy to piggyback off of that bigger scene too.

You're telling us there is some great stuff around Simon, so I'll ask again, could you provide some examples of what you believe is great?

[Guest]

I'd be genuinely interested to hear examples of the current stuff that you consider to be good, Simon?

Roger, as I have nowhere near the knowledge about the new Soul tracks that you have, I'll leave it up to you to tell us what is 'good' although I suppose your list of twenty plus new things you think are currently worthy of attention do that .

I hear a lot of new stuff on Starpoint for instance and through what Ralph at Expansion plays me and he receives a lot of stuff as you know. Little moves me to be honest. Dome do some brilliant stuff and I like two of the new tracks on the new 'Togetherness 2006' compilation a lot (Trace and Aura Jackson), Soul Brothers 'This Is Soul 2006' contains some great stuff and I thought Marva Kings 'Know You' was fantastic.

[Guest]

You're telling us there is some great stuff around Simon, so I'll ask again, could you provide some examples of what you believe is great?

Ooh so forceful !

and look Roger, we were posting at the same time. so impatient too .

[Guest Dodger]

Roger, as I have nowhere near the knowledge about the new Soul tracks that you have, I'll leave it up to you to tell us what is 'good' although I suppose your list of twenty plus new things you think are currently worthy of attention do that .

I hear a lot of new stuff on Starpoint for instance and through what Ralph at Expansion plays me and he receives a lot of stuff as you know. Little moves me to be honest. Dome do some brilliant stuff and I like two of the new tracks on the new 'Togetherness 2006' compilation a lot (Trace and Aura Jackson), Soul Brothers 'This Is Soul 2006' contains some great stuff and I thought Marva Kings 'Know You' was fantastic.

Fair enough, sorry I jumped the gun on the last post.

I genuinely don't 'tell' people what is good, all I can do is bring things to their attention that I personally believe are good, either via the forums or my shows. I accept that my ear is a lot more geared towards the more smooth sounding new releases than somebody who's basic love is 60s, that's why I don't recommend very much on here because I know most of it would get slated, a la Ray Robinson!!

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

Heard any of these Tone?

Donald Harrison Jr. ft. Denise Hudson - You Love Me Back (3D Vol. 1 - 2006)

Trizonna McLendon - Remedy (Overtones & Innuendos - 2006)

Freddie Jackson - Heaven (Transitions - 2006)

Bernard James - Struggle (Today - 2006)

Miki Howard - Lowdown (Pillow Talk Miki Howard Sings The Classics - 2006)

Marcell & The Truth - Breathe Love (Hopes Too High - 2006)

Batiste - U (remix) (Batiste - 2006)

Boney James ft. Faith Evans - Gonna Get It (Shine - 2006)

Maylyn Murphy - Dream Come True (Body & Soul - 2006)

Ray Robinson - My Heart (What It Is - 2006)

Lilla D'Mone - Forever And A Day (Music Trance - 2006)

Allon Sams ft. 3am - You Remain the Same (Music And Laughter - 2004)

Franklin & Charlena Crouch - Where Did Love Go (Survivor - 2006)

Talein - You Need A Saviour (Don't Turn Your Back On God - 2006)

Meka King - Won't Be Like That (Count It All Joy - 2006)

Dave Hollister - No One (Book Of David Vol. 1 The Transition - 2006)

Khalil - We Kicked It (Tease U Please U - 2006)

Keisha White - Baby Come To Me (Out Of My Hands - 2006)

Terisa Griffin - Love Changes (My Naked Soul - 2006)

Tim Dillinger - That's What I Feel (The Muse - 2006)

Deni Hines - Ghetto Heaven (Water For Chocolate - 2006)

Nyr - Amazed By Your Smile (2 Funky Playlist Vol 1 & Nyr - 2006)

Plenty of great quality soul music still being released today if you look in the right places, and not every single artist tries to copy artists of years gone by, I think that's just in your own mind.

Roger

...Yes, as I keep abreast of what's new in black music of all kinds, I've probably heard more of them than you might think, particularly as I'm betting that you actually think that I've heard none of them!

Around half of those that I've heard (which is about half of what you've listed in total) are good enough to want to hear more than once, and around half of those would earn a place in my collection if I was in the habit of buying 'one track' CDs - which I try not to be, anymore.

You seem to be under the impression that I do not care for Y2K music, and that I refuse to acknowledge that anything not made before 1980 might be good. You're wrong on both counts, so you can disabuse yourself of those daft notions immediately.

I am lucky in that, whether they were made last week or 50 years ago, I only seem to like good records. If John Legend ever makes one, I''ll be the first to alert the world as to its merits, I promise you. Until then, I can't defend his catalogue just because he's a current artist - which seems to be the main reason that you would have me defend him - I'd prefer to wait until his work puts on the same level as that of our cornerstone artists, and I fear I could be in for a long wait...

I don't intend to further defend my stance on most mainstream black music, so by all means have the last word - as I'm sure you will

TONE

[Guest Dodger]

I don't intend to further defend my stance on most mainstream black music, so by all means have the last word - as I'm sure you will

TONE

OK then, I'm not ordinarily a petty last-word merchant, but I won't disappoint you on this occasion. I find your postings on this forum towards new artists and anyone who says they like them to be condescending and arrogant.

We're not worthy and all that.

[Guest]

Is there any truth in the rumour?

[Guest]

Oops, sorry wrong thread hope I didn't get anyone excited !

[Guest TONY ROUNCE]

I find your postings on this forum towards new artists and anyone who says they like them to be condescending and arrogant.

...Much as I - and, I'm sure, at least some other Sourcers - find your postings to be towards anyone who says they don't like new artists. Oh, and let's not forget 'extraordinarily patronising', and 'thoroughly irritating', too...

Actually the only new artist I've ever said I don't like on this forum is John Legend. I might have been a bit negative about a few new records, but who isn't (Apart from you, obviously...) I like plenty of 'New Artists', from Faith Evans to Van Hunt and all points in between. I even (shock! horror!!) own lots of records by 'new artists' . Doesn't make me a bad person because I don't like every Y2K act. I don't like all 60s, 70s and 80s soul artists either and I've still managed get a decent collection together along the way...

I'm sure you'll have something else to say, but as far as this particular posting's concerned, I'm done, movin' on...

TONY