Counterfeit paintings or records - what's the difference?

[Amsterdam Russ]

Interesting article on Sky News about a master forger of classic paintings with the headline "Copycat artist defends sale of "Grand Masters"". Reading it I couldn't help but substitute references to the art world with those of the rare soul world and the eternal (and ever-increasing) problem of bootlegs, especially those that look so much like originals. 

https://news.sky.com/story/1696494/copycat-artist-defends-sale-of-grand-masters

Two sides to the argument mirror those of the rare soul scene: one, that making rare treasures accessible as "copies" ensures that they're appreciated by a wider audience, while the other side of the argument is that it's just plain illegal.

Thoughts?

[Pga1]

I have to disagree, just put my copy of ' mona Lisa'  on the decks and it didn't play and now my stylus is knackered and covered in old paint. Must say  I'm sure the miserable old face is smiling  now, the spindle hit the right spot.  'picture me gone'  cheers

[Whiskyagogo]

The Joker

[Chatty]

Surely "Behind A Painted Smile"? Pga1 

[Guest johnny hart]

"Picture Me Gone"!  Fine art world reeling at the stealing of old masters and rare treasures; Picasso ,Rembrandt,Mickey Moonshine, Helen Shapiro? Russ, you've been reading too many JM record reviews!

[Tattoodave]

Call me picky, if you must, but I prefer my illegal activities to be harmful to me only and not ripping off the public.  A print is a print, is a print, an original is a work of art.

[Mike Lofthouse]

But a rare record - no matter how many copies there are - is only a 'print' of the musical performance laid down in the studios.  The 'original' piece of art is on the tape from which masters, stampers are created to produce the 'copies' ie the records.

[Tattoodave]

1 hour ago, Mike Lofthouse said:

But a rare record - no matter how many copies there are - is only a 'print' of the musical performance laid down in the studios.  The 'original' piece of art is on the tape from which masters, stampers are created to produce the 'copies' ie the records.

That's what I was implying, referring more to the legal reissues, or label owners reissues rather than the fly by night bootlegger.

[viphitman]

22 hours ago, Mike Lofthouse said:

But a rare record - no matter how many copies there are - is only a 'print' of the musical performance laid down in the studios.  The 'original' piece of art is on the tape from which masters, stampers are created to produce the 'copies' ie the records.

Hmm not sure !!!! Art finds its complete existence in the final format it was intended to be or in the completion of the process. If an artist produced a limited run of prints, all prints are original prints.

The plate, block, stone, or stencil that has been hand created by the artist for the sole purpose of producing the desired image are just the means in order to create the final ``product or piece of art`` An original painting is a creative process quite often planed to be on one piece of material only. The sketch is just the original sketch of the painting. From the beginning it was intended to be one piece of art, on one canvas, to be sold or given as a present.

The musical performance laid down in the studios can be considered a piece of art as a performance but it was concieved in order to produce a piece of art (musical recording) and therefore is just a stage in a creative process which ends with the production of a record.

The recording, masters and stampers are only created in order to produce the final original piece of art, which has been chosen to find it’s final existence on a record. A record is not just a print; it’s the final piece of art or piece of music on the chosen format in which the creative output became complete as a piece of art. There are many stages in which a piece of art can be created but only the finished ``product`` makes it complete. You could argue that the original idea, the first jam session or the first music sheet is the original. They are original in their given spectrum but all combined are only in existence in order to produce a record.

The original model of an old classic car is the creative output of the engineers and designers. But it’s just the original model. But it was intended to be produced and sold in a certain quantity. A true, original car is a vehicle that has been maintained both aesthetically and mechanically without the replacement of any parts or pieces. The repairs that have occurred are few and far between, and whenever possible, parts needing maintenance have been fixed rather than replaced. At the same time you have original restored, modified and retro copies.  It is the same with any other product, which you may consider a piece of art.

The same with a lovely bottle of red wine…. Ok I stop now  ;)

[Mike Lofthouse]

Some interesting and fair points....  

Music is an aural experience and is recorded in a studio in order to provide aural entertainment to the listener.  It was not conceived to produce a piece of plastic or to look good (a car is - it provides a practical purpose but people enjoy the styling too).  At various times the music performance could also be delivered by Radio, 8 Track, cassette,CD or today, via download - you don't even see them when they are reproducing the sound for your enjoyment.  The purpose of the process is to deliver a musical performance, it is irrelevant what the delivery medium is.

Yes, I do like the look of the odd label but I would never buy a record because it 'looked good' , likewise, I would never buy a record if it did not reproduce the sound in an enjoyable way or as the musicians intended.

[Ernie Andrews]

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I think the lack of Provenance is the main problem for rare soul records. Most of the painting masters have been researched and documented

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 so as to give some legitimacy to the original art form. This is very rare in music unless you have some form of documanentation and by the very nature of being rare they probably dont

 

 

 

[Frankie Crocker]

Art is art. Fraud is fraud. The current record fraudsters have raised standards of their forgeries to a fine art. Record collecting, precarious at the best of times, has now become trickier than ever because of items branded 'original' when they are indeed fakes/replicas/bootlegs. Lookalike paintings or records sold as genuine are an artful dodge and a scourge to collectors. I 'won' an 'Original' Pointer Sisters on eBay last week but ended up not paying for it once I learned the matrix number from the seller - he was pretty miffed that I posed the question, yet was content to market the record as genuine.