Crossover Top 100

[Kegsy]

3 minutes ago, TRICKY said:

8O,S RECORDS Crossover really!!

Not having it. Will bow out now because pointless arguing the toss.

Quite a lot of years on the Soul Scene.

Tricky 

Without wishing to be pedantic, where do records by say, Angie Stone or Drizabone fit in, I've heard both played alongside more traditional northern stuff, in fact I've done it myself.

[Steveh73]

As a phrase or sub-genre all of its own, I can remember 'crossover soul' first being coined in Voices From The Shadows magazine in 1992 and being used to describe soul released after the Holland Dozier Holland Motown-period (so from 1968) but before Philly Soul really took off (so up to about 1972). As it happened, there was enough sixties bounce and enough seventies smoothness to appeal to both Northern and Modern fans but this was perhaps coincidental. As these things do, the original meaning has become blurred over time and is seemingly used as a general description for a modern sound that might appeal to the northern fraternity Eg. Ace Spectrum, Jesse James etc. Maybe someone can find the original article and post it up as the definitive origination?

[Chris Turnbull]

21 minutes ago, solidsoul said:

Well I'm sorry but after 45 years of following Northern Soul/Modern Soul without a break, I can tell you this were the term came from.

We needed something to describe a record/sound that could sort of fit into both scenes!  Crossover!

  It has nothing to do with dates, as a 60's or 80's record can be described as Crossover.

Maybe the term was used that way back in the day but for me it represents tunes from the late 60's / early 70's that were mostly ignored before the 1990's because they had the wrong tempo  

3 minutes ago, Kegsy said:

Without wishing to be pedantic, where do records by say, Angie Stone or Drizabone fit in, I've heard both played alongside more traditional northern stuff, in fact I've done it myself.

Just modern soul at a northern night, nothing more

[Chris Turnbull]

12 minutes ago, steveh73 said:

As a phrase or sub-genre all of its own, I can remember 'crossover soul' first being coined in Voices From The Shadows magazine in 1992 and being used to describe soul released after the Holland Dozier Holland Motown-period (so from 1968) but before Philly Soul really took off (so up to about 1972). As it happened, there was enough sixties bounce and enough seventies smoothness to appeal to both Northern and Modern fans but this was perhaps coincidental. As these things do, the original meaning has become blurred over time and is seemingly used as a general description for a modern sound that might appeal to the northern fraternity Eg. Ace Spectrum, Jesse James etc. Maybe someone can find the original article and post it up as the definitive origination?

Bang on there - I have the excellent Voices article somewhere and will scan when I get a minute 

[Guest Ivor Jones]

1 hour ago, Chris Turnbull said:

That's really interesting as I always took it to mean the crossover between the 1960's and 1970's, therefore records from that short period with their distinctive sound.  

Most of the records we have listed weren't played much, if at all, until the early 90's onwards. At that time with venues like Canal Tavern at the forefront I did see it as a new music scene (albeit under the umbrella of the northern and modern scenes) which then expanded with a whole load of 'across the board' venues like Pitches.

Or Rhetta Hughes 'Cry myself to sleep' (Tetragrammaton) which of course was a huge play for Roger Banks late 90's

Not nitpicking Chris but most of that great list you put up were actually hammered out and about around the late 80s,some earlier than that,but most before the 90s.

The Southport weekenders and the Modern Soul scenes in [Predominantly] London and Manchester were the main breeding ground for hearing this stuff at the time. Venues like The Norfolk Village, Canal Tavern, Pitches carried this on. The acceptance of this stuff by the wider Northern scene in general was quite a few years later from my recollection. From the list, Guitar Ray, Ruby Andrews were Stafford spins as was Dave Thorleys "Pyramid". I think Pyramid was the real mould breaker as a style changer,around 84-85 at Stafford. Full marks to Dave then ! Of course theres also other stuff which were played as "Northern" before but which also happen to fit right in that bag,I'm thinking stuff like:

Buddy Conner/Worlds Funkiest Band "When You're Alone"

Ann Sexton "You've Been Gone Too Long"

Lynn Varnado " Wash and Wear Love"

Chris, I think you've absolutely nailed the essence of what the sound is with that list. You can add these to the list as well:

 Corey Blake "How Can I Go On Without You"

 Bobby Patterson "I'm In Love With You"

Alice Clark "Dont You Care" 

Tommie Young "Hit And Run Lover"

Minits "Still A Part Of Me" 

All the best, Ivor

 

[Guest Ivor Jones]

25 minutes ago, Kegsy said:

Without wishing to be pedantic, where do records by say, Angie Stone or Drizabone fit in, I've heard both played alongside more traditional northern stuff, in fact I've done it myself.

Are these Styrene or Vinyl Kegsy ? Or are they Stynyl ? 

[Autumnstoned]

Crossover in the music biz is defined as:-

musical works or performers who appeal to different types of audience.

Coined in the late 50's when the likes of Pat Boone were re recording toned down versions of R&B tunes?

Seems to have a different meaning on the soul scene. Eg this definition from Dave Rimmer in Soulful Kinda Music:-

'Crossover'. Now what on earth does that mean, and where does it fit in amongst the Northern Soul scene ? Well it means records that were recorded during the late Sixties and early Seventies, records that don't fit the old style stomper beat, but don't fit comfortably into the Modern scene. The difficulty with Crossover is just that though, because it doesn't fit into either scene entirely it gets played on both, so just blurs the descriptions even more. I would hazard a guess that there are no allnighters that play just Crossover, but I'm sure someone will prove me wrong !

Anyway, here's a few I like:-

Jimmie Ellis - Happy To Be

Little Carl Carlton - Drop By My Place 

Bobby Foster - Where Do You Go

 

 

Edited March 25, 2016 by autumnstoned

[Guest Ivor Jones]

24 minutes ago, steveh73 said:

As a phrase or sub-genre all of its own, I can remember 'crossover soul' first being coined in Voices From The Shadows magazine in 1992 and being used to describe soul released after the Holland Dozier Holland Motown-period (so from 1968) but before Philly Soul really took off (so up to about 1972). As it happened, there was enough sixties bounce and enough seventies smoothness to appeal to both Northern and Modern fans but this was perhaps coincidental. As these things do, the original meaning has become blurred over time and is seemingly used as a general description for a modern sound that might appeal to the northern fraternity Eg. Ace Spectrum, Jesse James etc. Maybe someone can find the original article and post it up as the definitive origination?

I agree Steve….

[Steve G]

15 hours ago, Dave Thorley said:

But surly that is a modern soul track 

40 year old "modern"….is that another genre? :-) 

[Chris Turnbull]

4 minutes ago, Ivor Jones said:

The Southport weekenders and the Modern Soul scenes in [Predominantly] London and Manchester were the main breeding ground for hearing this stuff at the time. Venues like The Norfolk Village, Canal Tavern, Pitches carried this on. 

 

You are right Ivor, I had forgotten the Southport weekenders etc

Great tunes to add to the list BTW - had forgotten Tommie Young & Minits but prime examples

[Kegsy]

8 minutes ago, Ivor Jones said:

Are these Styrene or Vinyl Kegsy ? Or are they Stynyl ? 

Original MP3 mate !.

[Kegsy]

I'm sure its safe to say,  Its No Mistake that this Crossover business is a tricky one.

[Guest Ivor Jones]

6 minutes ago, Kegsy said:

I'm sure its safe to say,  Its No Mistake that this Crossover business is a tricky one.

Darrow Fletcher…..Its No Mistake on Stynyl

Edited March 25, 2016 by Ivor Jones

[Guest Ivor Jones]

Also, just remembered…..for me, one of the ultimate Crossover style tunes to add to the master list: 

Gloria Shannon "Tears Are Gifts From Heaven"

Wonder who this really is ? So brilliant its off the scale…... 

[Guest chrissue]

How about Jean Battle, I've got to come in.

Willie Bollinger, I Don't have to cry no more.

Don Thomas, How can I help but love you.

 

[Chris Turnbull]

22 minutes ago, Ivor Jones said:

Also, just remembered…..for me, one of the ultimate Crossover style tunes to add to the master list: 

Gloria Shannon "Tears Are Gifts From Heaven"

Wonder who this really is ? So brilliant its off the scale…... 

Woah, that is fantastic Ivor - completely passed me by - is it pukka? Certainly sounds the real deal. So good I had to post below. Brings to mind the wonderful Qunestine Strong 'One Hundred years from now', also below:-

 

[Chris Turnbull]

8 minutes ago, chrissue said:

How about Jean Battle, I've got to come in.

Willie Bollinger, I Don't have to cry no more.

Don Thomas, How can I help but love you.

All three top tunes but I must admit only Jean Battle what I would class as crossover. Love the Eboney Essence version too

[Guest chrissue]

Almost forgot about Serena Johnson "All work and no play"!

[Ncfc]

Hardly anyone was buying this stuff until Rod took over Thorne from Gary(RIP).

[Pga1]

Hiya, geater Davis - my love is so strong  on house of orange is one I play. Crossover ? Great  tune.  Cheers

[Chris Turnbull]

30 minutes ago, Pga1 said:

Hiya, geater Davis - my love is so strong  on house of orange is one I play. Crossover ? Great  tune.  Cheers

Great shout, love it

Gwen McCrae 'Lead me on' (Columbia) and James Fry 'Still around' (Hi) would also get my vote on the more downbeat southern side  

[Guest Ivor Jones]

1 hour ago, Chris Turnbull said:

Woah, that is fantastic Ivor - completely passed me by - is it pukka? Certainly sounds the real deal. So good I had to post below.

Its a genuine previously unnissued thing which appeared a few years back. No one actually knows who its by seemingly,[was an uncredited acetate or tape recording]. Deaf people have claimed its Gladys Knight…..Yeah right ! Its clearly not her, but whoever it is its absolutely top notch. the only way to get it is the Realside release [Black issue or white demo] plus a handful of 10" promo acetates which I believe were done to build demand by Realside before they pressed up the 45s.

Rumours circulating that Berry Gordy may have produced the backing track for a soundtrack[What for no one has suggested] Thats all I know.

Oh, and its brilliant of course. But then you already know that !

[Dave Thorley]

56 minutes ago, NCFC said:

Hardly anyone was buying this stuff until Rod took over Thorne from Gary(RIP).

I have to disagree, yes when Rod took over he did give it a big shot in the arm but of the ones already mentioned 50% had been popular in the early 80's at venues like Oddfellows, Stafford and even the 100 Club, clearly you didn't go to any of these

 

[Soulof]

Changes all the time but my fave crossover at the moment is THE SOUL WALKERS - Can I Say It Again . Quite new to my ears this but should definitely be in top 100 what a tune!  

 

 

[Guest Ivor Jones]

How about these:

Aretha Franklin "Dont Let Me Lose This Dream"

Dee Dee Warwick "Where Is That Rainbow"

Betty Everett "Unlucky Girl"

And a late contender…...

Dee Dee Warwick "You Tore My Wall Down" [Recent 45 on Soul Junction]

Also

 Phillip Mitchell "Just The Beginning" [The original version on Grapevine CD]

And

Spencer Wiggins "Im At The Breaking Point" Tuuuuuunnne !

 

[Guest Ivor Jones]

8 minutes ago, Dave Thorley said:

I have to disagree, yes when Rod took over he did give it a big shot in the arm but of the ones already mentioned 50% had been popular in the early 80's at venues like Oddfellows, Stafford and even the 100 Club, clearly you didn't go to any of these

 

Thats the point I was trying to make earlier Dave….A lot of the tunes on Chris's list at the top of the thread were already established spins way before the 90s.

[Dave Thorley]

1 hour ago, Ivor Jones said:

Thats the point I was trying to make earlier Dave….A lot of the tunes on Chris's list at the top of the thread were already established spins way before the 90s.

We all can fall into the trap of sighting what we know as the main. Any of the guys above that weren't going frequently in the early to mid 80's would feel the same, that it was a discovery of their generation. But many of the DJ's of the 80's partly built their reputations on the Crossover sound, Ian Clark, Robin Salter, Adam, Bob Jones, Colin Law, Bob Jeffries, Simon Dunmore, Soul Sam, Arthur Fenn and I'd put your good self in there.

 

Edited March 25, 2016 by Dave Thorley

[Guest Ivor Jones]

5 minutes ago, Dave Thorley said:

We all can fall into the trap of sighting what we know as the main. Any of the guys above that weren't going frequently in the early to mid 80's would feel the same, that it was a discovery of their generation. But many of the DJ's of the 80's partly built their reputations on the Crossover sound, Ian Clark, Robin Salter, Adam, Bob Jones, Colin Law, Bob Jeffries, and I'd put your good self in there.

 

Simon Dunmore as well Dave. He kind of gets airbrushed out these days but at the time he was a force to be reckoned with for sure. Great taste in Soul and a great DJ too.

 

[Roburt]

Does Lou Ragland's "Makin Love" qualify (maybe it's already been mentioned anyway) ??

[Guest Ivor Jones]

Also, if it wasn't a set in stone Northern Biggie surely Mel Britt "She'll come running back" would be on that Crossover list wouldn't it ? Certainly fits the mould for me.

Also these in the same bag to me:

 Tommie Young" Thats All A Part Of Loving Him"

Buddy Ace "Pleasing You"

Jim Gilstrap "Run, Run, Run"

Dells "Its All Up To You"

Garland Green "Since You've been Gone"

3 minutes ago, Roburt said:

Does Lou Ragland's "Makin Love" qualify (maybe it's already been mentioned anyway) ??

I always have that down as a London Two step Sound. Its much later isn't it...

[Stubbsy]

Really love this one, which I picked up recently.

Can't remember hearing it before until I heard it on Solar radio recently. Very catchy tune/song!

1972 release on King, listed as Xover record in JM's guide but trust you'll all agree it's one of those 70's releases which has a proper "northern" sound.

"The Harlem Clown" - Our Brothers Keeper

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9vgJoZ0e28

 

Edited March 25, 2016 by Stubbsy

[Dave Thorley]

44 minutes ago, Ivor Jones said:

Simon Dunmore as well Dave. He kind of gets airbrushed out these days but at the time he was a force to be reckoned with for sure. Great taste in Soul and a great DJ too.

 

Have edited above to included him, thanks Ivor

[Roual Galloway]

3 hours ago, Ivor Jones said:

Not nitpicking Chris but most of that great list you put up were actually hammered out and about around the late 80s,some earlier than that,but most before the 90s.

The Southport weekenders and the Modern Soul scenes in [Predominantly] London and Manchester were the main breeding ground for hearing this stuff at the time. Venues like The Norfolk Village, Canal Tavern, Pitches carried this on. 

Ivor - you should give credit to Scotland and in particular the Kilt within your list - great times 

3 hours ago, Ivor Jones said:

 

 

[Guest Ivor Jones]

Yes Roual, the jocks were very much on it. In London there was a nucleus of Scots who were very much part of the modern Soul scene back then. Big Jim, Speedy etc went to all the gigs. Of course Tom Jackson and Billy Davidson were also instrumental in shaping the musical direction at the Upnorth weekenders from day one. Big Jim Dunn and his mate Sam[can't remember his surname but he lived in the Uxbridge area?] accompanied me and Dunmore up to the first one at Berwick on Tweed. Great Days indeed. I never went to the Kilt myself though. There were people all over the place who appreciated this stuff but I still maintain it was mainly London and Manchester at the time, in London mainly because there were plenty of disillusioned ex Jazz Funk and Northern punters looking for something different. So, yes, we tip our hat to the Kilt Mr Galloway !

[Mal C]

great thread...

Edited March 25, 2016 by Mal C

[Winsford Soul]

Could someone please define crossover. late sixties through early seventies or northern to modern or vice versa. And why Pidgeon holed as such ?

Great music whatever era is great music and deserves to be played out everywhere doesn't it ?

Steve

[Davenpete]

7 hours ago, Kegsy said:

But did they cross from Modern to Northern or Northern to Modern or did some swing both ways ??

It seems to me (and especially given the inital listing and mentions of things like Kiss My Love Goodbye that there's a confusion on wht acrossover IS - to me it isn't modern that crossed over to northern or vice-versa it is a genre of sounds that sit musically/cronologically BEFORE modern, but after the 60s stomp period of sounds - mainly stuff between say 68 and 73. Dx

[Chris Turnbull]

6 minutes ago, DaveNPete said:

It seems to me (and especially given the inital listing and mentions of things like Kiss My Love Goodbye that there's a confusion on wht acrossover IS - to me it isn't modern that crossed over to northern or vice-versa it is a genre of sounds that sit musically/cronologically BEFORE modern, but after the 60s stomp period of sounds - mainly stuff between say 68 and 73. Dx

Same here as previously stated 

[Rich B]

For my part, I don't think it's the date a song is recorded or released that makes it 'crossover' but you just know it when you hear it....

Edited March 25, 2016 by Rich B

[charliew]

7 hours ago, Ivor Jones said:

Darrow Fletcher…..Its No Mistake on Stynyl

Well theres no arguing on this one as the label tells you lol

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, DaveNPete said:

It seems to me (and especially given the inital listing and mentions of things like Kiss My Love Goodbye that there's a confusion on wht acrossover IS - to me it isn't modern that crossed over to northern or vice-versa it is a genre of sounds that sit musically/cronologically BEFORE modern, but after the 60s stomp period of sounds - mainly stuff between say 68 and 73. Dx

So reading that it looks like Northern Soul finished in 1968 then crossover started???

Some records I like, that I call Northern Soul, but others call crossover are:-   "Stop Hurting Me Baby"- Purple Mundi,     "All Of A Sudden"- Melvin Moore,     "Your Love"- Choice Of Colours,      "I'm Not Ready"- Ujima,     "Yes I'm In Love With You"- Unique Blend,     "Gotta Be A Reason"- Bernard Smith,     "Thank You Baby"- Matt Brown,     Things a Lady Ain't Supposed To Do"- Four Dynamics ,    "I'm So In Love With You"- Gino Washington,    "There's A Girl Somewhere"- Bobby Rich, etc.  All Northern Soul records to me, and all records I have heard played at Northern Soul venues!

Edited March 25, 2016 by Guest

[Roburt]

4 hours ago, Ivor Jones said:

I always have that down as a London Two step Sound. Its much later isn't it...

Ivor, Lou's "Makin Love" was booted due to it's popularity with 2-Steppers, but it's just a great track all around !!

[Guest Ivor Jones]

1 minute ago, Roburt said:

Ivor, Lou's "Makin Love" was booted due to it's popularity with 2-Steppers, but it's just a great track all around !!

Yes it was. It is a great track but not one I would class as Crossover.

[Guest Ivor Jones]

52 minutes ago, DaveNPete said:

It seems to me (and especially given the inital listing and mentions of things like Kiss My Love Goodbye that there's a confusion on wht acrossover IS - to me it isn't modern that crossed over to northern or vice-versa it is a genre of sounds that sit musically/cronologically BEFORE modern, but after the 60s stomp period of sounds - mainly stuff between say 68 and 73. Dx

Yes I agree. However, lots of 60s stuff gets played alongside these because,due to tempo or general style and feel of the record they just happen to really fit in. Later stuff too. I think its this that tends to confuse some people. Its just about the feel of the music surely ? You either get it or you don't. And, if you don't get it, no amount of  explaining it all out can change that…...

I rest my case your honour.

 

[charliew]

Without delving into the true meaning of where and when i would like to think the nine tunes below would be classed as crossover although they were played at Northern doos ! I just personally feel theres a distinct sound that lends itself to the label if that makes sense. If someone asked me to lst a 100 crossover tunes these 9 would probably be in my top ten

massive Northern tunes !

Willie tee,First taste of hurt

Jimmy Bo Horn, I just cant speak

Richard Caiton, I,d Like to get near you

Chuck Cockerham, Have i got the right

Ty Karim, Lighten up

The United sounds, Think it over baby

Psychodelic Frankie, Puttin you out of my life

Guitar Ray, Your gonna wreck my life

New Sounds, Dont take your love

 

Then tunes like this below i would class as 70ts ! (slightly different sound) but all subjective to individuals ?

Archie Bell, Thousand Wonders

[Stateside]

I've been buying soul music since 1969 and I couldn't care less what label people choose to give it. It's soul music!.

Ask any soul artist what crossover is and they will say music that crossed over into the pop charts.

I'll get me coat.

 

Kev

[Bazm]

Definiteley one for the Top Ten Dottie Pearson Bring It Over Baby........

[Guest Ivor Jones]

24 minutes ago, BazM said:

Definiteley one for the Top Ten Dottie Pearson Bring It Over Baby........

Yep…its a winner too

[Sean Hampsey]

Fascinating thread.

There are thousands of records that fit into the genre and which were recorded during the 'crossover of decades' period of 4-5 years.

Certainly though there's a Top 100 (or more) of continuously trotted out same old, same olds that seem to have become deep rooted these days in Northern Soul culture.

But the actual output is vast, possibly infinite. Some folk are still digging and seeking out these hidden gems. Others are satisfied to stick to the well worn, tired and proven.

A familiar tale.

Sean

 

 

[Ian Dewhirst]

Two pages in and it's become obvious that everyone has their own interpretation of what "Crossover" actually is, so it's kinda murky and obviously hard-to-define clearly and succinctly.

I've never understood why people would want to hijack an existing term and confuse things by trying to re-invent the same term as something else entirely. The same thing has happened with 'garage'. 'Garage' records were traditionally lo-fi pop/rock records that were literally recorded in garages, generally in outer L.A. in the mid 1960s. Then some bright spark decided that 'garage' would be the term that described UK urban late 90s dance records. Crazy.

'Crossover' is a traditional US music term to describe records which have half a chance of crossing over to the mainstream Pop chart. The diametric opposite of the UK meaning of the word.

Y'know, are there so FEW words in the English language that we can't help repeating the same ones whether they make any sense or not? I've never heard one person be able to describe what 'crossover' actually is. I KNOW what crossover is, but it beats me why an existing term had to be appropriated rather than inventing a new one.

Great thread though Ivor!

Ian D