Should they be considered Northern soul Artist

[Guest Musicnam101]

The shangri-las 

Although,they were an American pop girl group of the 1960s. Should they possibly be considered Northern soul Artist?

 

[dean jj]

There is no such thing as 'a northern soul artist' but there artists who have made records appreciated by the northern soul sub culture.

dean

[Kegsy]

51 minutes ago, dean jj said:

There is no such thing as 'a northern soul artist' but there artists who have made records appreciated by the northern soul sub culture.

dean

You beat me to it, my sentiments in a nut shell.

[Soul-slider]

'Give Him A Great Big Kiss' is a nice dancer

[Guest Musicnam101]

This is not well known, if known at all by most who are not members of the culture and community from which soul music comes.

In various places through out the U.S.A Our parents and even Grand parents would refer to our brothers and sisters who performed at small

picnics and what we referred to as garage parties particularly in D.C, Philly, parts of Richmond and northern Virginia as our "NORTHERN SOUL BROTHERS"

Whom also had family members in Detroit, Chicago, and many other places throughout the U.S.  Whom shared, taught and even joyfully competed against one another. for the applause and judging of the small group of usually family members and friends present.   D.C's   "GO-GO" Music was also a part of that.

So even though there is a story about how the term Northern soul came about, It is written once again by sources not from the actual community.

Many from the community, in particular the older who are aware and alive  Wonder how does this type of stuff keep on happening.

(EXAMPLE)   Elvis is considered the king of (Rock & Roll)  But not by the Community who created It. Who also happens to be the same Community that created "NORTHERN SOUL MUSIC"   Mostly Poor, talented African American men and women Many with a gospel back ground. Singers and Instrumentalist.

Our "SOUTHERN SOUL BROTHERS" Same thing. When going south to visit family. There was fair anticipation wondering what new sound or twist our friends and family members who played music had in store for us.

It was all soul, It was NORTHERN SOUL-SOUTHERN SOUL and on the side  " D.C GO-GO."

I've heard the story about how the term came about in northern England. But there is Another story an earlier story that comes from friends, family and the artist themselves. Many/most never recorded a single record. But were the best around. This may truly Only be known by members of the Older African American  community. Who today simply go to work ,Pay their bills and try to make a better life for their kids.

"REMEMBER"  They say that Elvis was the king of Rock and Roll.  But The creators of the genre knows better.

 

       

 

 

 

[Steve L]

1 hour ago, Musicnam101 said:

This is not well known, if known at all by most who are not members of the culture and community from which soul music comes.

In various places through out the U.S.A Our parents and even Grand parents would refer to our brothers and sisters who performed at small

picnics and what we referred to as garage parties particularly in D.C, Philly, parts of Richmond and northern Virginia as our "NORTHERN SOUL BROTHERS"

Whom also had family members in Detroit, Chicago, and many other places throughout the U.S.  Whom shared, taught and even joyfully competed against one another. for the applause and judging of the small group of usually family members and friends present.   D.C's   "GO-GO" Music was also a part of that.

So even though there is a story about how the term Northern soul came about, It is written once again by sources not from the actual community.

Many from the community, in particular the older who are aware and alive  Wonder how does this type of stuff keep on happening.

(EXAMPLE)   Elvis is considered the king of (Rock & Roll)  But not by the Community who created It. Who also happens to be the same Community that created "NORTHERN SOUL MUSIC"   Mostly Poor, talented African American men and women Many with a gospel back ground. Singers and Instrumentalist.

Our "SOUTHERN SOUL BROTHERS" Same thing. When going south to visit family. There was fair anticipation wondering what new sound or twist our friends and family members who played music had in store for us.

It was all soul, It was NORTHERN SOUL-SOUTHERN SOUL and on the side  " D.C GO-GO."

I've heard the story about how the term came about in northern England. But there is Another story an earlier story that comes from friends, family and the artist themselves. Many/most never recorded a single record. But were the best around. This may truly Only be known by members of the Older African American  community. Who today simply go to work ,Pay their bills and try to make a better life for their kids.

"REMEMBER"  They say that Elvis was the king of Rock and Roll.  But The creators of the genre knows better.

 

       

 

 

 

I'm afraid you're missing the point entirely, there could have been little green men on mars calling something or other northern soul. 

The "northern soul" that is discussed on this forum is the music scene that originated in England and has nothing to do with  

"what we referred to as garage parties particularly in D.C, Philly, parts of Richmond and northern Virginia as our "NORTHERN SOUL BROTHERS"

apart from where northern soul music comes from of course

 

[Jordirip]

I think you're getting a bit mixed up. As you mentioned, the term 'Northern soul' was coined in the UK and referred to the geographical area of the the north of England's appreciation of a type of music that was made mainly in the USA, mainly by black artistes though far from exclusively, and from all geographical areas in the USA, north, south ,east and west. Your reference to Northern soul brothers and Southern soul brothers is geographical. And as Dean said earlier, there aren't 'northern soul' bands or artistes, just bands or artistes that happened to have made within theirs careers a record or records that have been appreciated and played on the 'northern soul' scene. Now, what constitutes a northern soul record is for another thread.

[Supercorsa]

4 hours ago, Musicnam101 said:

The shangri-las 

Although,they were an American pop girl group of the 1960s. Should they possibly be considered Northern soul Artist?

 

Not in my opinion and you can add the following to the list as well, Helen Shapiro, Elvis Presley  with his rubber neck, not forgetting recently seen Dolly Parton mentioned,  FFS! ?

[Kevinkent]

3 hours ago, Musicnam101 said:

This is not well known, if known at all by most who are not members of the culture and community from which soul music comes.

In various places through out the U.S.A Our parents and even Grand parents would refer to our brothers and sisters who performed at small

picnics and what we referred to as garage parties particularly in D.C, Philly, parts of Richmond and northern Virginia as our "NORTHERN SOUL BROTHERS"

Whom also had family members in Detroit, Chicago, and many other places throughout the U.S.  Whom shared, taught and even joyfully competed against one another. for the applause and judging of the small group of usually family members and friends present.   D.C's   "GO-GO" Music was also a part of that.

So even though there is a story about how the term Northern soul came about, It is written once again by sources not from the actual community.

Many from the community, in particular the older who are aware and alive  Wonder how does this type of stuff keep on happening.

(EXAMPLE)   Elvis is considered the king of (Rock & Roll)  But not by the Community who created It. Who also happens to be the same Community that created "NORTHERN SOUL MUSIC"   Mostly Poor, talented African American men and women Many with a gospel back ground. Singers and Instrumentalist.

Our "SOUTHERN SOUL BROTHERS" Same thing. When going south to visit family. There was fair anticipation wondering what new sound or twist our friends and family members who played music had in store for us.

It was all soul, It was NORTHERN SOUL-SOUTHERN SOUL and on the side  " D.C GO-GO."

I've heard the story about how the term came about in northern England. But there is Another story an earlier story that comes from friends, family and the artist themselves. Many/most never recorded a single record. But were the best around. This may truly Only be known by members of the Older African American  community. Who today simply go to work ,Pay their bills and try to make a better life for their kids.

"REMEMBER"  They say that Elvis was the king of Rock and Roll.  But The creators of the genre knows better.

 

       

 

 

 

An interesting perspective and a good post I think from a new member, so don't be put off by adverse responses.  Unfortunately you do show a lack of appreciation regarding the Northern Soul scene that began in the UK and is now acknowledged world-wide as a genre of music.  I can almost understand from your post the reasoning behind so many U.S. ebay sellers describing some of their vinyl as "Northern Soul" - when to the rest of the world it clearly isn't.

Think of it as Football. We could both discuss that game with a ball, played between 2 teams - yet we would each be talking about a completely different  thing.

- Kev

Edited February 16, 2016 by KevinKent

[Daved]

Surely there is such a thing as northern soul artists. Eddie Holman, JJ Barnes and Lorraine Chandler for example?

[Jordirip]

But only certain bits from their full repertoire of material is in a 'northern soul' style. You could also say the same about Jackie Wilson, Major Lance etc.

[Stateside]

7 hours ago, Musicnam101 said:

This is not well known, if known at all by most who are not members of the culture and community from which soul music comes.

In various places through out the U.S.A Our parents and even Grand parents would refer to our brothers and sisters who performed at small

picnics and what we referred to as garage parties particularly in D.C, Philly, parts of Richmond and northern Virginia as our "NORTHERN SOUL BROTHERS"

Whom also had family members in Detroit, Chicago, and many other places throughout the U.S.  Whom shared, taught and even joyfully competed against one another. for the applause and judging of the small group of usually family members and friends present.   D.C's   "GO-GO" Music was also a part of that.

So even though there is a story about how the term Northern soul came about, It is written once again by sources not from the actual community.

Many from the community, in particular the older who are aware and alive  Wonder how does this type of stuff keep on happening.

(EXAMPLE)   Elvis is considered the king of (Rock & Roll)  But not by the Community who created It. Who also happens to be the same Community that created "NORTHERN SOUL MUSIC"   Mostly Poor, talented African American men and women Many with a gospel back ground. Singers and Instrumentalist.

Our "SOUTHERN SOUL BROTHERS" Same thing. When going south to visit family. There was fair anticipation wondering what new sound or twist our friends and family members who played music had in store for us.

It was all soul, It was NORTHERN SOUL-SOUTHERN SOUL and on the side  " D.C GO-GO."

I've heard the story about how the term came about in northern England. But there is Another story an earlier story that comes from friends, family and the artist themselves. Many/most never recorded a single record. But were the best around. This may truly Only be known by members of the Older African American  community. Who today simply go to work ,Pay their bills and try to make a better life for their kids.

"REMEMBER"  They say that Elvis was the king of Rock and Roll.  But The creators of the genre knows better.

 

       

 

 

 

A nice post and welcome to Soul Source.

As the old saying goes...........The UK and USA................two countries separated by a common language.

[Guest Musicnam101]

17 hours ago, Steve L said:

I'm afraid you're missing the point entirely, there could have been little green men on mars calling something or other northern soul. 

The "northern soul" that is discussed on this forum is the music scene that originated in England and has nothing to do with  

"what we referred to as garage parties particularly in D.C, Philly, parts of Richmond and northern Virginia as our "NORTHERN SOUL BROTHERS"

apart from where northern soul music comes from of course

 

Take away the music, Replace it with country or heavy metal, Does the term northern soul apply. I think even Little green men would Answer "NO".

WHY?

Because it is about the music (first and foremost). Without it there is no NORTHERN SOUL.

[Dave Rimmer]

Musicnam101

I think more to the point is that it is the Northern Soul SCENE in the UK, which plays Soul and R & B from black (And white) artists from all over the USA.

Several of the artists who are clearly Southern Soul artists, by location and style of music, have had hugely popular records on the Northern Soul scene, the geographical location of the artist is immaterial as to whether their records got played on the Northern Soul scene in the UK.

There is no real musical genre called Northern Soul though, in the way there is Country, or rock, or even classical, it's just that the terminology of 'Northern Soul' has been in use for over forty years in the UK, and now of course worldwide, so it has reached a level where most people recognise what it means.

[Guest Musicnam101]

17 hours ago, jordirip said:

I think you're getting a bit mixed up. As you mentioned, the term 'Northern soul' was coined in the UK and referred to the geographical area of the the north of England's appreciation of a type of music that was made mainly in the USA, mainly by black artistes though far from exclusively, and from all geographical areas in the USA, north, south ,east and west. Your reference to Northern soul brothers and Southern soul brothers is geographical. And as Dean said earlier, there aren't 'northern soul' bands or artistes, just bands or artistes that happened to have made within theirs careers a record or records that have been appreciated and played on the 'northern soul' scene. Now, what constitutes a northern soul record is for another thread.

By the time the people in the northern regions of England discovered an appreciation of  African American soul music,

The TERM "NORTHERN SOUL" was already being used by members of the African American  community.  (Northern soul, Southern soul, Juke Joint style, Jive etc.)

The community did differentiate between the very styles of music that they created, The bands as well as the artist. Even if those outside of the community did not recognize or acknowledge it.

At that same time Others outside of the community were referring to the music as jungle music, the devils music, and other unpleasant terms I will not repeat. I am fully aware that there are areas north of England that appreciate the music and created a culture around it., But the "TERM" NORTHERN SOUL was not coined in the northern regions of England.  

What artist outside of black artist produced Northern soul music?  Are you referring to Blue eyed soul?

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Musicnam101]

19 minutes ago, Dave Rimmer said:

Musicnam101

I think more to the point is that it is the Northern Soul SCENE in the UK, which plays Soul and R & B from black (And white) artists from all over the USA.

Several of the artists who are clearly Southern Soul artists, by location and style of music, have had hugely popular records on the Northern Soul scene, the geographical location of the artist is immaterial as to whether their records got played on the Northern Soul scene in the UK.

There is no real musical genre called Northern Soul though, in the way there is Country, or rock, or even classical, it's just that the terminology of 'Northern Soul' has been in use for over forty years in the UK, and now of course worldwide, so it has reached a level where most people recognise what it means.

This is where the confusion comes in. There is a musical genre called Northern soul. It was coined by the African American community itself. Soul, Northern soul, Southern soul, Juke style soul, Jive, Go-Go, etc. These are terminologies given to these genres by the community. The people themselves. 

in spite of the fact that those outside of the community knew about it or recognized it or even acknowledged it.

Go-Go music has been apart of The African American community for decades. Many had no idea of what it was until 10/15 years ago.  We call it go-go.

In time Those outside of the community may attempt to call it something else and claim it originated some where else or was coined some where else.

It would be harder to do these days, but not impossible. "NORTHERN SOUL" is an example of how this can happen.

The true History of this community in the field of their own music and terminologies has been dealt such injustice it's almost unreal.

The community as invisible to the larger community as they may have been, Coined the styles of music that came from their community.

There cannot be a Northern soul scene without the northern soul music which is a style/genre of music clearly distinguishable to The older African American community.

 

 

[Tattoodave]

9 minutes ago, Musicnam101 said:

 

There cannot be a Northern soul scene without the northern soul music which is a style/genre of music clearly distinguishable to The older African American community.

 

 

But, the older African American community's Northern Soul is not our Northern Soul, ours is the rare, forgotten, often "B" sides to commercial flops that America discarded. 

[Guest Musicnam101]

Rare, forgotten, B side, Commercial flop, discarded or not. it is all a genre of music, coined by the African American community who are much older now.

 

[Steve L]

"This is where the confusion comes in. There is a musical genre called Northern soul. It was coined by the African American community itself. Soul, Northern soul, Southern soul, Juke style soul, Jive, Go-Go, etc. These are terminologies given to these genres by the community. The people themselves. 

In time Those outside of the community may attempt to call it something else and claim it originated some where else or was coined some where else.

It would be harder to do these days, but not impossible. "NORTHERN SOUL" is an example of how this can happen.

The true History of this community in the field of their own music and terminologies has been dealt such injustice it's almost unreal."

 

I really don't see what you're arguing here. There isn't any confusion.

Our "northern soul" is not the same as your "northern soul' 

Your use of the term was first, so what? who cares? 

You're arguing about two entirely separate things, one of which you know very little about

[Kegsy]

23 hours ago, Musicnam101 said:

This is not well known, if known at all by most who are not members of the culture and community from which soul music comes.

In various places through out the U.S.A Our parents and even Grand parents would refer to our brothers and sisters who performed at small

picnics and what we referred to as garage parties particularly in D.C, Philly, parts of Richmond and northern Virginia as our "NORTHERN SOUL BROTHERS"

Whom also had family members in Detroit, Chicago, and many other places throughout the U.S.  Whom shared, taught and even joyfully competed against one another. for the applause and judging of the small group of usually family members and friends present.   D.C's   "GO-GO" Music was also a part of that

It was all soul, It was NORTHERN SOUL-SOUTHERN SOUL and on the side  " D.C GO-GO."

 

 

       

 

 

 

Surely in this context this was NOT about a particular style/genre of music, but about the people who were playing it, and where they came from I.E. people would be referring to their SOUL BROTHERS from the north or the south.  Therefore they are referring to the PEOPLE not the musical style. I would imagine people would say when visiting relatives in Detroit, "we are going to visit our Northern Soul Bothers", whether there was ANY OR NO musical connection.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Kegsy

[Guest Musicnam101]

19 hours ago, KevinKent said:

An interesting perspective and a good post I think from a new member, so don't be put off by adverse responses.  Unfortunately you do show a lack of appreciation regarding the Northern Soul scene that began in the UK and is now acknowledged world-wide as a genre of music.  I can almost understand from your post the reasoning behind so many U.S. ebay sellers describing some of their vinyl as "Northern Soul" - when to the rest of the world it clearly isn't.

Think of it as Football. We could both discuss that game with a ball, played between 2 teams - yet we would each be talking about a completely different  thing.

- Kev

Great reply.

But, We both are talking about the same thing. It's just that when claiming that the term NORTHERN SOUL was "coined" in the northern regions England

Clarity should make an appearance.

THE WORD the TERM NORTHERN SOUL was being used by members of the African community before the peoples of the northern regions of England discovered an appreciation for it.

To say Northern soul is alive and well in these regions is great, fine and cool. But to say that the term which rest apon the music which fuels the culture was coined in England is not correct. even though we're talking about a northern region.

If one is saying northern soul and only attaching it to a region and claiming that the term was coined there. and accepting it.

Then there is no desire to investigate the true coining of the WORD. from where it comes and how it has been utilized through out the world and by whom and in what circumstances. geographical, cultural, etc.

 

 

[Shinehead]

47 minutes ago, Musicnam101 said:

This is where the confusion comes in. There is a musical genre called Northern soul. It was coined by the African American community itself. 

 

 

Could you post up some YouTube clips of Northern Soul U.S. style I would be interested to know what type of soul music this is , I know what Southern Soul is and sounds like .

Never once in my 60 years have I heard the terminology referred to any type of soul music in the U.S. , Northern Soul just been a title given to a wide spectrum of uptempo soul music played in the UK.      

[Tivoli]

From Wikipedia...

 

The phrase northern soul emanated from the record shop Soul City in Covent Garden, London, which was run by journalist Dave Godin.^[2] It was first publicly used in Godin's weekly column in Blues & Soul magazine in June 1970.^[3] In a 2002 interview with Chris Hunt of Mojo magazine, Godin said he had first come up with the term in 1968, to help employees at Soul City differentiate the more modern funkier sounds from the smoother, Motown-influenced soul of a few years earlier. With contemporary black music evolving into what would eventually become known as funk, the die-hard soul lovers of northern England still preferred the mid-1960s era of Motown-sounding black American dance music. Godin referred to the latter's requests as "Northern Soul":

I had started to notice that northern football fans who were in London to follow their team were coming into the store to buy records, but they weren't interested in the latest developments in the black American chart. I devised the name as a shorthand sales term. It was just to say 'if you've got customers from the north, don't waste time playing them records currently in the U.S. black chart, just play them what they like - 'Northern Soul'.^[4]

 

 

[Tivoli]

Extracted from "The Wall of sound" Web page.

Some points about the UK Northern Soul scene and US soul music remade. December 12, 2007

Posted by wallofsound in Northern Soul, Soul. 
trackback

This post is based upon a post I made about a year ago. In the year since I put it up it caused quite a bit of controversy with people on the Northern scene. I’ve rewritten it a bit to try and get my point across more clearly. If you want to compare this with the original post, it’s here. If you are at all interested in a few reflections on academic writing I made when I made the changes, they’re here.

This is a short extract from a much longer paper on dancing on the Northern Soul scene that was published in Popular music, and I posted the original extract as a contribution to a debate with other popular music academics about the link between white Britons and black music. So, I’m not trying to explain the Northern Soul scene here, just take issue with what’s been written by other academics about the link between the scene and black American culture.

Hopefully here’s a clearer discussion about that relationship between the UK Northern Soul scene and US soul music:

When writing about the Northern Soul scene in Britain many academics try and make some strong points about the link between the scene and US soul music and the African American culture in which the music developed. Based on my own involvement in the scene, and my own reflections as a popular music academic I’m not convinced the other academic analyses are correct.

Joanne Hollows and Katie Milestone (1998) have produced a thoughtful mapping of the cultural geographic meanings of the relationship of the UK Northern Soul scene with the northern cities of the USA where the music was recorded. Many of the points they make are accurate. The authors note that by using imported records participants in the scene could produce a culture independent of London. They further suggest that people on the scene in the 1970s negotiate the competing meanings of ‘North America’ in English culture to produce a relationship with an ‘imagined’ African American culture structured through an interpretative community which extends from the US cities in which the music was produced, through the dancefloors of the Northern scene, and to the pop sensibilities of other consumers of soul records (87- 94).

That is an overstatement of the case. The relationship between the UK Northern Soul and the black culture of Northern cities of the US is even more complex than Hollows and Milestone suggest. The greater complexity can be grasped by attention to the practices in African American music culture during the 1960s, and the British Northern Soul scene in the 1970s and beyond.

As a number of other scholars have demonstrated, there is a richness to the politics of culture, identity and music generated in African American communities in the 1960s and 70s, which requires sophisticated analysis (George 1986; George 1988; Early 1995; Ward 1998; Smith 1999). The music played in Northern clubs is selectively, and meaningfully, drawn from the historical moment in which the aspirations among black Americans for integration gave way to a desire for a self-defined equality. Specifically, Northern soul DJs most often play records from the earlier black pop pro-integrationist period, and exclude those with strong musical elements associated with the ‘funkier’ music associated with the African pride and black power initiatives which followed.

This point will become clearer, perhaps, if we turn to Dobie Gray’s recording of ‘Out on the Floor’. I’ve used this record elsewhere to explain Northern Soul dancing, and within the scene this is how it is meaningful. However, in the context of the development of black music in the USA the lyrics and music place the song in an interesting mid-point between the integrationist agenda in black politics and the civil rights movement and a greater emphasis on separatism.

Brian Ward has allied these cultural poles to the move from the Motown black pop of the early sixties to the black power funk of late sixties James Brown (1998, p. 123-169). The early operation and music of Motown Records in Detroit exemplifies the internationalist cultural and political ambitions (Smith 1999) – and it is no coincidence that Motown’s early records are often presented as key to the Northern sound – while Brown’s late 1960s and early 1970s music embodies both the move to a more conscious celebration of the distinctive qualities of black culture and the contradictions of trying to operate in a white dominated society and music industry (1988, 388 – 415).

On the one hand the lyrics ‘Out on the Floor’ deal with hedonism and dancing drawing upon a repertoire of black entertainment, and reference points from the broader sixties American youth culture which were apparent in much of the black pop produced by Motown and other independent record labels that were established after the success of Rock and Roll (Gillett 1971). Gray sings the lyrics in a style mid way between the dominating influences of Sam Cooke and Jackie Wilson; two of black pop’s biggest contemporary stars who worked in Los Angeles where Gray also recorded. The production reflects many of the pop experiments undertaken by Phil Spectre at the time.

On the other hand the recording also features hints of the new developing music of Soul and Funk. Unusually for black pop the lyrics feature the sorts of African American phraseology increasingly apparent in the music of James Brown at this time (see Wall 2003, p. 138-141). As such, it is an example of what Brackett argues is the articulation of a new black ‘soul’ culture (Brackett 2000). While Gray’s vocals do not feature the high key style which gives James Brown’s singing its distinctive feel, he does use Sam Cooke’s characteristic glissandi and the urgency of Jackie Wilson’s blues gospel style with increasing prominence as the song progresses. Nevertheless, the song structure is characterised by the same sorts of developments found in Brown’s music, where verses and choruses are increasingly dissolved into continually movement and delayed harmonic releases. The mid section of increasingly emotionally-expressive sung one-liners of black vernacular speech are very similar to the sorts of developments in Brown’s repertoire of the time, particularly the ground-breaking ‘Papa’s got a Brand New Bag’ from 1965.

However, in my experience on the scene these very important factors in African American music are not significant in the way the record is interpreted on the Northern scene. It is not incidental to the popularity of the record on Northern dancefloors – along with another Gray success ‘The In-crowd’ – that the lyrics seem to celebrate the world of dance culture that gave them a new life beyond the deletion racks. Further, the song’s lyrics of sixties black vernacular speech are transformed in the scene to articulate the scene itself, and its strong sense of communality (rather than its connection to liberation politics). This is also true of the use in the scene of the African American-derived terms ‘right on’, ‘keep the faith’, and ‘brothers and sisters’. The ‘faith’ is no longer one of liberation and a better future, but of a commitment to a community, its records and dancing.

The lyrical content of the record is understood to stand for, and articulate, the scene as a whole and many dancers sing these key lines as they dance. The sense of identity with Northern Soul is the product of a complex set of layered relationships: the musical structure of a record like ‘Out on the floor’; then performed as dance within a common set of competencies of dancers and shared techniques.

That is not to deny that there is some sense of identification with African American culture. My own interest in black music, and my development of an academic career around that interest, was fired by my love of soul records. However, the relationship between the scene’s participants and African American culture is not direct, is much more conditional. African American music on record relates more to the cultural possibilities it offers for a British alternative identity, than to any consistent support for the liberation struggle taking place in the US at the time.

Brackett, D. 2000. ‘James Brown’s ‘Superbad’ and the double-voiced utterance’, in Reading Pop, ed. R. Middleton. (Oxford): 122-39
Early, G. 1995. One nation under a groove: Motown and American culture. (New Jersey)
George, N. 1986. Where did our love go? : the rise & fall of the Motown sound. (London)
George, N. 1988. The death of rhythm & blues. (London)
Gillett, C. 1971. The sound of the city : the rise of rock and roll. (London)
Hollows, J. and K. Milestone 1998. ‘Welcome to dreamsville: a history and geography of northern soul’, in The place of music, ed. A. Leyshon, D. Matless and G. Revill. (New York ; London).
Smith, S. E. 1999. Dancing in the street : Motown and the cultural politics of Detroit. (Cambridge, Mass. ; London)
Ward, B. 1998. Just my soul responding : rhythm and blues, black consciousness and race relations. (London)
Wall, T. 2003. Studying popular music culture. (London)

This is an extract from ‘Out on the Floor: The Politics of Dancing on the Northern Soul Scene’ in Popular Music 25/3

[Tattoodave]

It wasn't until the 70's that flights to the USA became cheap enough to entice vinyl collectors over to look for the hidden gems that we refer to as Northern Soul, if you'd asked for Northern Soul then in the record shops, warehouses or anywhere else you'd have been given a blank look even deeper than the ones given when asking for specific titles.  You have to remember that this is a subculture made prevalent by working class individuals, so not your frequent flying elite.  Maybe some folks called it Northern Soul when they sang at informal gatherings of their brethren, but it cuts no ice in a country where people were ignorant of that "fact". 

[Guest Musicnam101]

9 minutes ago, Kegsy said:

Surely in this context this was NOT about a particular style/genre of music, but about the people who were playing it, and where they came from I.E. people would be referring to their SOUL BROTHERS from the north or the south.  Therefore they are referring to the PEOPLE not the musical style. I would imagine people would say when visiting relatives in Detroit, "we are going to visit or Northern Soul Bothers", whether there was ANY OR NO musical connection.

Great Reply,

But no. If you are familiar with the blues and it's dynamics within the African American community, Then you will understand the dynamics of soul music.

Northern, Southern etc.

[Guest Musicnam101]

36 minutes ago, Steve L said:

"This is where the confusion comes in. There is a musical genre called Northern soul. It was coined by the African American community itself. Soul, Northern soul, Southern soul, Juke style soul, Jive, Go-Go, etc. These are terminologies given to these genres by the community. The people themselves. 

In time Those outside of the community may attempt to call it something else and claim it originated some where else or was coined some where else.

It would be harder to do these days, but not impossible. "NORTHERN SOUL" is an example of how this can happen.

The true History of this community in the field of their own music and terminologies has been dealt such injustice it's almost unreal."

 

I really don't see what you're arguing here. There isn't any confusion.

Our "northern soul" is not the same as your "northern soul' 

Your use of the term was first, so what? who cares? 

You're arguing about two entirely separate things, one of which you know very little about

When did arguing make an appearance?

You asked who cares.  I thought you and little green men did.

About the Northern soul sub culture in the northern regions of England, Much is Known.

And sharing is caring. 

 

 

[Kegsy]

10 minutes ago, Musicnam101 said:

Great Reply,

But no. If you are familiar with the blues and it's dynamics within the African American community, Then you will understand the dynamics of soul music.

Northern, Southern etc.

I am fully aware of the regional differences in musical styles inside the U.S.A. be it Blues,Jazz or soul, Memphis had a distinct style as did Detroit, Chicago, Philly etc. The thing is you can't associate the British usage of the term "Northern Soul" with it's U.S. usage as they are obviously two different things. The U.S. usage may well refer to music made in the north Chicago/Detroit, whereas in the British sense northern soul music came from ALL regions of the U.S. and was NOT about any particular region. It's a bit like fanny, two totally different meanings depending on which side of the pond you are.

[Guest Musicnam101]

GREAT REPLY.  BEST SO FAR.

[SOULCENTRAL]

Regarding the original post, it is my opinion that the Shangrilla's would not be considered to be Northern soul artists as such within the uk. This due to the lack of any of their material establishing itself as being played on the scene. 

As for the developing argument regarding the origins of Northern soul the solution is simple. Both the USA and the UK coined the term Northern soul but both have different interpretations and applications as to why it is so called. Dave Rimmer for me sums it up admirably in his post above.

Dave Godin did not take the term from the USA as I am sure he was totally unaware of the NS and SS communities at the time and therefore cannot be accused of hijacking the name for his own use.

ROY

[Steve L]

2 minutes ago, Musicnam101 said:

GREAT REPLY.  BEST SO FAR.

What did he say that i didn't? 

This is just a wind up

[Guest Musicnam101]

That is POSSIBLE.

 

 

[Chris Robinson]

"Right Now And Not Later" always  sounded perfect for wigan  era imho

 

[Jordirip]

2 minutes ago, Steve L said:

What did he say that i didn't? 

This is just a wind up

fanny.

[SOULCENTRAL]

1 minute ago, Steve L said:

What did he say that i didn't? 

This is just a wind up

Steve, I think it was the "fanny" comparison that got him.

 

ROY

[Guest Musicnam101]

It was the fanny comparison that got me.

Clearly, Northern Soul stuff 

[Kegsy]

5 minutes ago, SOULCENTRAL said:

Steve, I think it was the "fanny" comparison that got him.

 

ROY

On that note, this article may explain it a bit better.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/howaboutthat/11707669/Rear-of-the-Year-competition-2015-in-pictures.html?frame=3359034

[Guest Musicnam101]

8 minutes ago, Kegsy said:

On that note, this article may explain it a bit better.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/howaboutthat/11707669/Rear-of-the-Year-competition-2015-in-pictures.html?frame=3359034

Thanks for the link.

What's the deal with I guess is a new northern soul patch in England that has a black background and pale black power fist on it.

What is that all about? 

[SOULCENTRAL]

2 minutes ago, Musicnam101 said:

Thanks for the link.

What's the deal with I guess is a new northern soul patch in England that has a black background and pale black power fist on it.

What is that all about? 

Another thread methinks!.

[Kegsy]

6 minutes ago, Musicnam101 said:

Thanks for the link.

What's the deal with I guess is a new northern soul patch in England that has a black background and pale black power fist on it.

What is that all about? 

No idea.

The people on the northern soul scene in the early days did have an affinity with the struggle of Black Americans and the black power fist was used all over the place on badges, adverts etc. Also, many often wore a single black glove when attending all nighters. People like the Soledad Brothers and Angela Davies were quite well known about on the scene, whereas most of the UK population would not have had a clue who they were.

Edited February 17, 2016 by Kegsy

[Jordirip]

Yeah, it was all about the fact that every single northern soul fan in the UK was a miner living up north and if someone from the south said 'what's northern soul music?', the last thing they would see would be a coal dust covered fist coming at them. It's true.

[SOULCENTRAL]

1 minute ago, jordirip said:

Yeah, it was all about the fact that every single northern soul fan in the UK was a miner living up north and if someone from the south said 'what's northern soul music?', the last thing they would see would be a coal dust covered fist coming at them. It's true.

HA HA, Love it Jordi.

ROY

[Guest Musicnam101]

Just now, SOULCENTRAL said:

HA HA, Love it Jordi.

ROY

Are you saying that their love for a music and culture not of  their own was that intense?

[Kegsy]

1 minute ago, Musicnam101 said:

Are you saying that their love for a music and culture not of  their own was that intense?

I'm sorry mate but if you have to ask that question you DON'T have and will never have any understanding of "northern soul" in the British sense. The Northern Soul Scene in the British sense is actually a complete way of life not just a musical genre.

[Jordirip]

7 minutes ago, Musicnam101 said:

Are you saying that their love for a music and culture not of  their own was that intense?

Bordering on fanatacism and illness.

[Guest Musicnam101]

20 minutes ago, jordirip said:

Bordering on fanatacism and illness.

Clearly, Something was touched. For that kind of reply.

Let's be better and kinder.   

[Jordirip]

Just now, Musicnam101 said:

Clearly, Something was touched. For that kind of reply.

Let's be better and kinder.   

I was looking for a 'smiley' icon to put next to the comment. It was a comment made in jest!

[Guest Musicnam101]

No, It was heart felt. I have enjoyed myself tonight, You guys are great. And I see I can learn a lot from all whom communicated with me tonight.

I know about the brave people in northern England that stood up for equality for African Americans.

They are to be respected and acknowledged.

 

That is REAL.

 

 

 

 

  

[jam66]

2 hours ago, TIVOLI said:

That is not to deny that there is some sense of identification with African American culture. My own interest in black music, and my development of an academic career around that interest, was fired by my love of soul records. However, the relationship between the scene’s participants and African American culture is not direct, is much more conditional. African American music on record relates more to the cultural possibilities it offers for a British alternative identity, than to any consistent support for the liberation struggle taking place in the US at the time.

As the part quote above and others have mentioned and if I may add, we didn't really give a rat's ass the colour or geographical location of the record's artists or producers, certainly for the majority, it just had a certain sound that joie de vivre. That's not to say we weren't conscious of it it simply was not our first concern. I too wore a single black driving glove (Bradford Mecca '68/'69/'70ish Kegsy ) when first being attracted to the records. To presume I had any real idea of the racism and struggle for self identity within America would be tosh. Once again in reference to the above quote it was about me/the rest of us not the social discord elsewhere. Many of us had our own to flee from.

 

Any later ruminations on these themes have come with age and the growing awareness that comes with knowledge and experience,  we were young people having the time of our lives which is the annoying part of your post in retrospectively applying politics to our 'childhoods' which misses the whole point and is what you seem to be missing.  Sure now many of these things are well recognised amongst us but they really were irrelevant at the time.

 

Your other point about the geographical element says more perhaps about some divisions as seen by black America than here, many a fantastic side came out of LA including many on the Okeh imprint. Or is it that perhaps it's not as important there as you are claiming and are merely trying to upset us with some perceived superior knowledge and or insights. Don't think I'd bother if I was you as some on here could tell you what the assistant engineer had for breakfast and whether the receptionist got lucky the night before the tracks were laid down.

 

Rant over but I can't help but envisage trolls like yourself as bathing in infants tears so here's something for after bathtime for you.

 

 

[Kegsy]

18 minutes ago, jam66 said:

As the part quote above and others have mentioned and if I may add, we didn't really give a rat's ass the colour or geographical location of the record's artists or producers, certainly for the majority, it just had a certain sound that joie de vivre. That's not to say we weren't conscious of it it simply was not our first concern. I too wore a single black driving glove (Bradford Mecca '68/'69/'70ish Kegsy ) when first being attracted to the records. To presume I had any real idea of the racism and struggle for self identity within America would be tosh. Once again in reference to the above quote it was about me/the rest of us not the social discord elsewhere. Many of us had our own to flee from.

 

 

 

Ah yes, who could ever forget seeing The Equals !!!!!!!!!!!!!