General Feeling About Record Prices

[Dave Moore]

With Keith's recent post about going part time. Good luck Mate, hope it all works out). I'd like to ask a question. No agenda, no alterior motive just a wish to know how others are thinking and what are dictating other collectors buying habits. So....

When people put 45s up in the sales section "before putting them on Ebay" how many actually sell any records. I know that my sales on Ebay run at about 25% but then I only sell doubles of stuff and Motown Demos I've replace with better copies. Thing is this....I've collected for 30 years and haven't bought a record of any note from a UK dealer for almost 5 years! In fact I've sold them to UK dealers at what I could only describe as "going rate" to see them appear at more than double what I rated them at (and more!) on their lists. List after list of overpriced mid/poor quality records just get the "delete" button treatment I'm afraid, whilst the top end items attract the type of prices that far outstrip a "realistic" value imo. Just because one record fetches X amount it seems fine for sellers to quote that example in relation to another record being worth Y. I personally judge a records value by my own experience/knowledge of it, not be some price paid by someone else in an auction scenario. That has obviously curtailed my purchases over the past few years, but has also made me delve deeper into the collecting scene to find something I'd like to own.

Maybe dealers expectations are now outstripping the buyers willingness to "accept" the pricing of records. Once "The Returnees", (no disrespect intended), start trying to "liquify their assets" as they did last time, then surely it's gonna be a good thing all round. Prices fall, collectors start sniffing around again, money changes hands more, and the cycle starts again. Less collectors buying more records can only be a good thing for the long term collector AND the dealers who can recognise that and stay ahead of the pack?

For long term collectors....check out the sales section on ANY website (including SS), and tell me that for all the hype about Set sales, Summer sales, Bargains, Got to Go, etc etc. there's anything that makes you go "Quick....where's mi wallet?!

All this is obviously just my personal opinion, but it's vinyl....and we all know that's more than a case of life or death!

Is it time to ofload the big hitters and stash the money for a few years in order to rebuy them back at half the price? Go on admit it.... you know you've mulled that one over!

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

[paultp]

With Keith's recent post about going part time. Good luck Mate, hope it all works out). I'd like to ask a question. No agenda, no alterior motive just a wish to know how others are thinking and what are dictating other collectors buying habits. So....

When people put 45s up in the sales section "before putting them on Ebay" how many actually sell any records. I know that my sales on Ebay run at about 25% but then I only sell doubles of stuff and Motown Demos I've replace with better copies. Thing is this....I've collected for 30 years and haven't bought a record of any note from a UK dealer for almost 5 years! In fact I've sold them to UK dealers at what I could only describe as "going rate" to see them appear at more than double what I rated them at (and more!) on their lists. List after list of overpriced mid/poor quality records just get the "delete" button treatment I'm afraid, whilst the top end items attract the type of prices that far outstrip a "realistic" value imo. Just because one record fetches X amount it seems fine for sellers to quote that example in relation to another record being worth Y. I personally judge a records value by my own experience/knowledge of it, not be some price paid by someone else in an auction scenario. That has obviously curtailed my purchases over the past few years, but has also made me delve deeper into the collecting scene to find something I'd like to own.

Maybe dealers expectations are now outstripping the buyers willingness to "accept" the pricing of records. Once "The Returnees", (no disrespect intended), start trying to "liquify their assets" as they did last time, then surely it's gonna be a good thing all round. Prices fall, collectors start sniffing around again, money changes hands more, and the cycle starts again. Less collectors buying more records can only be a good thing for the long term collector AND the dealers who can recognise that and stay ahead of the pack?

For long term collectors....check out the sales section on ANY website (including SS), and tell me that for all the hype about Set sales, Summer sales, Bargains, Got to Go, etc etc. there's anything that makes you go "Quick....where's mi wallet?!

All this is obviously just my personal opinion, but it's vinyl....and we all know that's more than a case of life or death!

Is it time to ofload the big hitters and stash the money for a few years in order to rebuy them back at half the price? Go on admit it.... you know you've mulled that one over!

Regards,

Dave

www.theresthatbeat.com

www.hitsvillesoulclub.com

People are still buying records, I sold about half of the ones I recently listed on here. I think that the things that don't sell are the ones that are listed at top whack. The cheaper stuff is tougher to sell because its always been common and eBay has made common records so accessible (Carl Carlton - Competition is a good example).

I'm still buying records but I won't buy something because I have to have it at any price, I buy stuff I like at a price I'm willing to pay. I'm buying less to sell on at the moment though but that is because it is hard to get stuff at a price that allows some profit. I think that many records are currently vastly over priced because there has been such demand over the last few years, an adjustment is well overdue. A bit like house prices to be honest.

I hope the scene isn't going pear shaped just as I'm about to return after 3 years away from getting out and about. Mind you a slump in record prices would have me reaching for my wallet.

Edited September 27, 2006 by paultp

[Ged Parker]

People are still buying records, I sold about half of the ones I recently listed on here. I think that the things that don't sell are the ones that are listed at top whack. The cheaper stuff is tougher to sell because its always been common and eBay has made common records so accessible (Carl Carlton - Competition is a good example).

I'm still buying records but I won't buy something because I have to have it at any price, I buy stuff I like at a price I'm willing to pay. I'm buying less to sell on at the moment though but that is because it is hard to get stuff at a price that allows some profit. I think that many records are currently vastly over priced because there has been such demand over the last few years, an adjustment is well overdue. A bit like house prices to be honest.

I hope the scene isn't going pear shaped just as I'm about to return after 3 years away from getting out and about. Mind you a slump in record prices would have me reaching for my wallet.

Rising prices has been a self fulfilling prophesy over the last few years, once a price guide came out dealers in the US wanted that price and so dealers found it hard to access them cheaper so had to inflate the selling price to make a crust. The next price guide then shows the inflated price and off we go again, of course it can't go on like that forever. I accepted a long time ago that certain records I will never own because loads of people rate them higher in value that I do. Having said that I got one of them this week at around 1/3rd of it's usual list price. The list of stuff I want is always gonna be bigger than that I own and I only buy to keep so to me they are always a cost and never an investment so anything that allows me to get some of the ones I thought were out of reach is a good thing. Not sure there'll be anyone to play them to though

[Guest Dante]

Rising prices has been a self fulfilling prophesy over the last few years, once a price guide came out dealers in the US wanted that price and so dealers found it hard to access them cheaper so had to inflate the selling price to make a crust. The next price guide then shows the inflated price and off we go again, of course it can't go on like that forever.

In my opinion, THE question is, how it'll stop. In a few years the 90% of the records will be in th UK, so there's gonna be less and less US dealers with cheaper prices, so the UK dealers are gonna inflate more the prices and the history will start again.

So how the rising price phenomenom is gonna stop??????

Cheers

Dante

[Sanquine]

Looking back to your teen year's you could easy spend that entire weeks wage on a record or 2 - look at your salary now on a weekly basis pre out-going's mortgage food etc similar comparison? Yes the big stuff would take more than a weeks salary - but as prices have increased so have salaries - all relative and comparable to some degree.

Having said that - lot of big in demand stuff - few copies - one off's etc will continue to attract and fetch big monies - as these are usually auctioned the buyer will always dictate the final price as they are paying the money.......

Maybe we should look at one the real reason's, record prices have been able to go mad - Credit...... credit cards - loans and overdrafts - face it without them very few would be buying as much or paying the prices they do.... Would you have bought as much as you have and gone as high in the last 16 yrs if you had to pay cash direct from your wage

Stop and think how often do you pay for a record - higher priced stuff anyway without using credit card or if bankers card is it from overdraft - or cash loan put into bank etc etc in some way or another

Food for thought with your breaky..

Karen

Edited September 28, 2006 by sanquine

[Guest kermack]

Having said all that look how many records are out there, I can count at least 5 lists and sites that have Brice Coafield for sale all at around the £300 to £350 mark, Towana, George Smith & Bobby Reed all hover at around that price and there seem to be quite a few around........are they really that rare!!

Compare those to two that I've hunted for a while now The Vows on Major 3 and The Marvelows 'I've got my eyes on you' ABC cant find them anywhere

So a lot of records need a price readjustment imo, If prices do fall which They are doing anyway it can only be good.

John

[Baz Atkinson]

VERY VALID POINTS HERE AND A GOOD THREAD.MY VIEW FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH IS THAT AFTER 28 YEARS BUYING THE ONLY RULE IS THE FREE MARKET RULE IE MAKE AN OFFER AND SEE IF YOU GET IT.

CANT BLAME BRIT DEALERS FOR GOING OFF THE BOOK,THE QUESTION IS DO THERE SELL ALL THERE STUFF AT BOOK PRICE WHEN AT LEAST 70% OF STUFF PRICED AT 100 QUID OR LESS CAN BE PICKED UP ON E BAY FOR $9.99.

SURE THERE IS DEBT ABOUT BUT THAT IS A WIDER PROBLEM THAN JUST BUYING RARE SOUL,IT IS THE SYMPTON OF A SOCIETY WHICH TO A CERTAIN EXTENT HAS LOST IT WAY. HOUSE PRICES,FLASH CARS,KEEPING UP WITH THE JONESES ETC CONSUMER SOCIETY GONE MAD ,LOTS OF MY MATES COLLECT HIP HOP ETC AND THERE ARE JUST AS BAD AS ME,SO ITS NOT JUST NORTHERN.

BAZ A.

[Sanquine]

SURE THERE IS DEBT ABOUT BUT THAT IS A WIDER PROBLEM THAN JUST BUYING RARE SOUL,IT IS THE SYMPTON OF A SOCIETY WHICH TO A CERTAIN EXTENT HAS LOST IT WAY. HOUSE PRICES,FLASH CARS,KEEPING UP WITH THE JONESES ETC CONSUMER SOCIETY GONE MAD ,LOTS OF MY MATES COLLECT HIP HOP ETC AND THERE ARE JUST AS BAD AS ME,SO ITS NOT JUST NORTHERN.

BAZ A.

Agree totally - most people's life style's would change dramatically without it - but is relative to the reason for mad price's often paid - based on "I want it" whatever - will go to whatever - just stick it on overdraft/credit card etc.....

If having to put hand in pocket for cash out of wage packet, as we used to do in the early 80's - more serious thought would be made before going that extra couple of £100 or more, infact no option but to stop at limit....

Just pointing out a fact, not preaching / critising - been there, done it, got T.shirt as they say.... try to be cash only for me from now on - managed to keep to it for last year...

Karen

Edited September 28, 2006 by sanquine

[Guest Baz]

Maybe we should look at one the real reason's, record prices have been able to go mad - Credit...... credit cards - loans and overdrafts - face it without them very few would be buying as much or paying the prices they do.... Would you have bought as much as you have and gone as high in the last 16 yrs if you had to pay cash direct from your wage

Absolutely spot on Karen

I think one reason is presisly down to this, a few years ago every one was trying to buy there way in to get DJ spots, with the use of credit cards morgage payed off ect what ever, investment buyers, thinking they will make a mint, what ever, people have racked up debt, run out of spare cash what ever and the buying has dramticly dropped, along with all them 'rare' records that fetch £200-300 in books, turning up two a week on the bay, i have my own theorys as to why these price guides were bought out, due to ebay ect but not going into that one on here any record dealrer will tell you the market is saturating, apart from one major dealer, but why would he want to admit it? when he can bring out a new guide with even more hiked up prices? (not a dig a John in any way, fair play to him he's a business man and thats what he is doing protecting his business)

[Guest in town Mikey]

Agree totally - most people's life style's would change dramatically without it - but is relative to the reason for mad price's often paid - based on "I want it" whatever - will go to whatever - just stick it on overdraft/credit card etc.....

If having to put hand in pocket for cash out of wage packet, as we used to do in the early 80's - more serious thought would be made before going that extra couple of £100 or more, infact no option but to stop at limit....

Just pointing out a fact, not preaching / critising - been there, done it, got T.shirt as they say.... try to be cash only for me from now on - managed to keep to it for last year...

Karen

I agree with Baz. Spot on Karen.

And I'd add my twopenneth.

Despite the lies of those numbnuts I helped vote in. I think the UK is in a recession. Spending money of most of my friends seems to be much less than 5 years ago. This will have an effect, probably more so on places like ebay, because there are going to be fewer times that multiple people have the spare £500 to go after a Ty Karim say.

And I'd also say this site has had an effect. It educates us of so many cheap records that we didnt know and can often sound even better than the £200 record we initially wanted.

[Guest Baz]

And I'd also say this site has had an effect. It educates us of so many cheap records that we didnt know and can often sound even better than the £200 record we initially wanted.

Few years ago i used to think cheap ment poo, how was i wrong, some of them are still poo, but you just need to look abit harder

[Guest]

Absolutely spot on Karen

I think one reason is presisly down to this, a few years ago every one was trying to buy there way in to get DJ spots, with the use of credit cards morgage payed off ect what ever, investment buyers, thinking they will make a mint, what ever, people have racked up debt, run out of spare cash what ever and the buying has dramticly dropped, along with all them 'rare' records that fetch £200-300 in books, turning up two a week on the bay, i have my own theorys as to why these price guides were bought out, due to ebay ect but not going into that one on here any record dealrer will tell you the market is saturating, apart from one major dealer, but why would he want to admit it? when he can bring out a new guide with even more hiked up prices? (not a dig a John in any way, fair play to him he's a business man and thats what he is doing protecting his business)

In previous years the only way to buy Rare Soul 45s was off record lists or at record fairs/events etc. basically from the dealers within the Northern Soul circle.

Nowadays the internet has changed it all aspects of record collecting. You can now buy from anyone in the world with a website or of course E-bay. So the collector has a choice, in fact a massive choice where to spend his money. So if any UK dealers previously sold mis-graded 45s, sold bootlegs and counterfeits as originals, took weeks to mail the order and won't take anything back once you've bought it.. are finding there's now competition from dealers worldwide who think and operate differently.

I protect my business by selling clean records, mailed out the same day with a 7 day no hassle return policy sold to you by pleasant staff. I've said it before, every dealer in the UK who is NOT vat registered should be 17.5% cheaper than me and other VAT registered dealers. Hiking prices is anti-productive and we'd sell less..but dropping prices maybe works in a "Supermarket" but NOT a "Collectors Market"

If you have records in todays marketplace, the world will find you, if you give a good service the customers will stay with you. I can't speak for other dealers, but there is no down-turn in sales but there is a wider choice for the collector on where he spends his money. Our turnover has increased ever year since we started in business. We now employ 8 people.. it's about stock, service and exposure within the internet and having records people want.

We're gathering new SOUL collecting customers daily and hopefully keeping them.

[paultp]

In previous years the only way to buy Rare Soul 45s was off record lists or at record fairs/events etc. basically from the dealers within the Northern Soul circle.

Nowadays the internet has changed it all aspects of record collecting. You can now buy from anyone in the world with a website or of course E-bay. So the collector has a choice, in fact a massive choice where to spend his money. So if any UK dealers previously sold mis-graded 45s, sold bootlegs and counterfeits as originals, took weeks to mail the order and won't take anything back once you've bought it.. are finding there's now competition from dealers worldwide who think and operate differently.

I protect my business by selling clean records, mailed out the same day with a 7 day no hassle return policy sold to you by pleasant staff. I've said it before, every dealer in the UK who is NOT vat registered should be 17.5% cheaper than me and other VAT registered dealers. Hiking prices is anti-productive and we'd sell less..but dropping prices maybe works in a "Supermarket" but NOT a "Collectors Market"

If you have records in todays marketplace, the world will find you, if you give a good service the customers will stay with you. I can't speak for other dealers, but there is no down-turn in sales but there is a wider choice for the collector on where he spends his money. Our turnover has increased ever year since we started in business. We now employ 8 people.. it's about stock, service and exposure within the internet and having records people want.

We're gathering new SOUL collecting customers daily and hopefully keeping them.

I have to say that this is absolutely true, records are for more accessible today than they were even five years ago. However I bet everyone on here has a tale of buying stuff from people they don't know and being disappointed with the result. There are only a few dealers (on or off eBay) that I will confidently buy a high priced (over 50 in my case) record from, and I've never had a duff record from Mr Manship.

However John, I must take issue with your comments on reducing prices in a collectors market not working. If you reduce that Rufus Wonder on Lendo to 100 I'll buy it today

[Pete S]

In previous years the only way to buy Rare Soul 45s was off record lists or at record fairs/events etc. basically from the dealers within the Northern Soul circle.

Nowadays the internet has changed it all aspects of record collecting. You can now buy from anyone in the world with a website or of course E-bay. So the collector has a choice, in fact a massive choice where to spend his money. So if any UK dealers previously sold mis-graded 45s, sold bootlegs and counterfeits as originals, took weeks to mail the order and won't take anything back once you've bought it.. are finding there's now competition from dealers worldwide who think and operate differently.

I protect my business by selling clean records, mailed out the same day with a 7 day no hassle return policy sold to you by pleasant staff. I've said it before, every dealer in the UK who is NOT vat registered should be 17.5% cheaper than me and other VAT registered dealers. Hiking prices is anti-productive and we'd sell less..but dropping prices maybe works in a "Supermarket" but NOT a "Collectors Market"

If you have records in todays marketplace, the world will find you, if you give a good service the customers will stay with you. I can't speak for other dealers, but there is no down-turn in sales but there is a wider choice for the collector on where he spends his money. Our turnover has increased ever year since we started in business. We now employ 8 people.. it's about stock, service and exposure within the internet and having records people want.

We're gathering new SOUL collecting customers daily and hopefully keeping them.

I'm probably 20% cheaper than you John but it's still hard to sell records nowadays! I could have an identical record to you at £100 cheaper and they will still buy it from you and not me. And I've never figured out why that is because I'm usually very polite to customers, provide next day service and the grades are spot on.

Eventually everyone else will fall by the wayside and there will only be you and one or two others left, it's like the village shops syndrome, everyone now goes to the shopping malls and the village shops close down, then all of a sudden everyone misses them and thinks they weren't that bad after all!

This isn't a criticism at all. I just wish you'd never bought those price guides out, that was the beginning of the end for anyone who didn't already have 100,000 records safely in stock

[mischief]

I think Johns website must be the key to he's business.. I mean most of us on here use it for reference when checking out new tunes, I have oftern sat on my computer of a night playing things I don't know and then purchasing them from he's site..checking out hes recomendations and thinking this is good or in some cases thats pants... I buy off of John as some times for £20/£30 more you know what your getting.. I try not to buy from Ebay anymore if i do just cheapies, because of the quality of the records.

Pete maybe sound clips with some of the tunes would help, sometimes I don't know tunes, if I can't find a clip I can't buy it.. (just a thought)

[Winnie :-)]

Absolutely spot on Karen

I think one reason is presisly down to this, a few years ago every one was trying to buy there way in to get DJ spots, with the use of credit cards morgage payed off ect what ever, investment buyers, thinking they will make a mint, what ever, people have racked up debt, run out of spare cash what ever and the buying has dramticly dropped, along with all them 'rare' records that fetch £200-300 in books, turning up two a week on the bay, i have my own theorys as to why these price guides were bought out, due to ebay ect but not going into that one on here any record dealrer will tell you the market is saturating, apart from one major dealer, but why would he want to admit it? when he can bring out a new guide with even more hiked up prices? (not a dig a John in any way, fair play to him he's a business man and thats what he is doing protecting his business)

============

Buying may have dropped because people realise they're not actually getting DJ spots whatever they've bought, so instead of buying with an aim to DJ they're back to buying stuff they like and just becoming collectors again?

Also wondering if it's in a businessman's interests to actually admit his/her business is either on the slide or actually failing. Placing the seed of doubt starts people thinking is it worth investing in vinyl if the bottom is falling out of the market?

Winnie:-)

[Pete S]

Pete maybe sound clips with some of the tunes would help, sometimes I don't know tunes, if I can't find a clip I can't buy it.. (just a thought)

I've done that mate, before John did, but just couldn't keep on top of it or learn how to do it properly, in fact I couldn't do it now if I tried. I also offer clips of anything via email but I realise thats not the same as clicking on a website. John's got people who do all this for him, I remember him showing me when they were setting up his website and I knew and he knew it was going to be pretty great when it was up and running.

[mischief]

I've done that mate, before John did, but just couldn't keep on top of it or learn how to do it properly, in fact I couldn't do it now if I tried. I also offer clips of anything via email but I realise thats not the same as clicking on a website. John's got people who do all this for him, I remember him showing me when they were setting up his website and I knew and he knew it was going to be pretty great when it was up and running.

Maybe get your list out the day before my payday thats when I spend money, if just buying recs for the sake of it... usually done my buying by the middle of the month I can't be the only one that does that.. can I ..

Good luck

[Martint]

Having said all that look how many records are out there, I can count at least 5 lists and sites that have Brice Coafield for sale all at around the £300 to £350 mark, Towana, George Smith & Bobby Reed all hover at around that price and there seem to be quite a few around........are they really that rare!!

Compare those to two that I've hunted for a while now The Vows on Major 3 and The Marvelows 'I've got my eyes on you' ABC cant find them anywhere

So a lot of records need a price readjustment imo, If prices do fall which They are doing anyway it can only be good.

John

I was just going to make the same point - whatever people say, many records HAVE turned up in large quantities over the last few years but people have persisted in acting like they were still 'rare'..... many records which people are still trying to get £200-£300 quid for are constantly offered for sale all over the place in mint condition. I agree that some serious reality checks are needed and will come soon, I could list a number of records which have

1. become available in quantity in recent years (or were always available just not in demand)

2. had a flash of 'next big thing' exposure which sent or kept the price high

3. are now played out or in the hands of wannabe DJ's who are fed up

4. and are now being offered for sale everywhere - but the prices haven't 'dropped'....

bottom line being that many people can only see the value of their records going up at all costs, and some have become convinced that buying these records is safer than their pension over recent years. Unwise IMO......

I have always bought and sold bits and bobs along the way but I love my 'core' collection dearly and wouldn't want to sell them no matter what. I wouldn't want to be in the position of having a collection (especially a recently bought one) which I regarded as a pile of cash which I was going to rely upon for anything 'real life'....

[Supercorsa]

Maybe get your list out the day before my payday thats when I spend money, if just buying recs for the sake of it... usually done my buying by the middle of the month I can't be the only one that does that.. can I ..

Good luck

When buying off ebay, I aim to buy on something ending the day before or on payday. I tend to buy most of my stuff off ebay. Very occasionally buy stuff from dealers, but as I'm buying cheaper stuff tends to be almost half price on Ebay. Have seen some stuff on Pete's lists lately, but am always skint when I get them. Like Mischief says have a splurge on payday then have to wait another 4 weeks before I buy again.

[Pete S]

Unfortunately I can't do lists just to coincide with payday because I have to try to make a living wage every week!

Ebay is useful but it doesn't help when people are so slow to pay. I sold £850 worth on monday but so far have only received £250 worth of payments, and that just stays in paypal to finance more purchases. So while it looks like I did really well selling £850 on ebay, the fact is that will trickle in over the next 3 weeks, if half of them bother to pay at all

[Mark B]

In previous years the only way to buy Rare Soul 45s was off record lists or at record fairs/events etc. basically from the dealers within the Northern Soul circle.

Nowadays the internet has changed it all aspects of record collecting. You can now buy from anyone in the world with a website or of course E-bay. So the collector has a choice, in fact a massive choice where to spend his money. So if any UK dealers previously sold mis-graded 45s, sold bootlegs and counterfeits as originals, took weeks to mail the order and won't take anything back once you've bought it.. are finding there's now competition from dealers worldwide who think and operate differently.

I protect my business by selling clean records, mailed out the same day with a 7 day no hassle return policy sold to you by pleasant staff. I've said it before, every dealer in the UK who is NOT vat registered should be 17.5% cheaper than me and other VAT registered dealers. Hiking prices is anti-productive and we'd sell less..but dropping prices maybe works in a "Supermarket" but NOT a "Collectors Market"

If you have records in todays marketplace, the world will find you, if you give a good service the customers will stay with you. I can't speak for other dealers, but there is no down-turn in sales but there is a wider choice for the collector on where he spends his money. Our turnover has increased ever year since we started in business. We now employ 8 people.. it's about stock, service and exposure within the internet and having records people want.

We're gathering new SOUL collecting customers daily and hopefully keeping them.

the only thing i dissagree with you on this is that it would not be 17.5% cheaper as you can claim the vat back on what you pay for the record so if you paid £200 the vat would be £29.79 and sold it for £300 the vat would be £44.68 so you would pay 14.89 vat to the vatman therefore dealers should be cheaper but not by 17.5% pedantic i know .

but i have always thought as you stated that the ordinary dealers should be a good 10 to 15% cheaper than the big VAT reg dealers because it is a business and you have overheads to cover.

mark

[Modernsoulsucks]

It's particularly obvious that some UK dealers/ collectors/sellers operate as if Ebay does not exist. They have the JM and TB guides and seem to stick to those when pricing, taking usually the rate for a mint copy and then even adding on at times.

They completely fail to take into account record condition or the fact that the same records appear regularly on Ebay [they may have even got their 45s from Ebay themselves] at half the price or in a lot of instances without attracting any bids, despite the US seller mentioning that it's so much in the guide.

I think a general perusal of what's on sale at any allnighter would bear that observation out.

If you're trying to sell 45s at £30 and above IMO you're selling to collectors and you've not done your homework if you think we just shell out cos it's there. We're on Ebay,we get various lists, there's this site, so we compare prices and majority of us will wait until we think it's worth the money.

Of course the price guides have been a disaster in that the source of supply has wised up but then a lot of US dealers have been abreast of developments over here well before JM and TB guides. However it has spread to a lot more people over there and last time I was in USA I did get the impression that these guys think ALL 60's soul 45s are worth a fortune.

Too late to put the genii back in the jar but maybe the new editions of these guides will reflect what some of us see as a too high valuation on a lot of 45s.

They say anecdotal evidence is not proof but for instance Eddie Bishop reg issue is £300 in both guides [or maybe was on John's site] but can't sell it for £150. No wonder,it's crap!! Im sure many people on here have similar experiences. I do take John's point though about global reach. Bit of a difference between his site and my handful down at the local Northern do!!

There is however a slight upside to all this in that you can sell pretty poor records and make a profit by selling cheaper than guides or established sites. I recently sold a couple for £15 and £40 which were £75 and £100 elsewhere respectively.

Maybe the problem with the guides is that they cannot reflect the fluid nature of what collectors are prepared to pay. For every 45 that John or Tim IMO over-rates there's another they've under-rated if you take the Ebay auctions as your guide.

ROD

[Modernsoulsucks]

Mark, if John gets his 45s from USA he pays no VAT on the 45s but he still has to pay VAT to taxman. I fell into that trap when I was dealing full-time. He can't claim anything back on the records. So if he bought at $1000 and sold at £2000 cos he's registered he'd pay £350 VAT which puts up the cost of the initial purchase by 50%!!

Think Im right in that, aren't I John.

ROD

[AlanB]

...it would not be 17.5% cheaper as you can claim the vat back on what you pay for the record so if you paid £200 the vat would be £29.79 and sold it for £300 the vat would be £44.68 so you would pay 14.89 vat to the vatman..."

A VAT registered dealer could only reclaim VAT on records bought if seller is VAT registered and provides a VAT invoice, which I can't imagine happens very often. The big dealers therefore DO have a 17.5% price disadvantage.

Alan

Alan

[SteveM]

-->

QUOTE(mark.b @ Sep 28 2006, 12:54 PM) link

the only thing i dissagree with you on this is that it would not be 17.5% cheaper as you can claim the vat back on what you pay for the record so if you paid £200 the vat would be £29.79 and sold it for £300 the vat would be £44.68 so you would pay 14.89 vat to the vatman therefore dealers should be cheaper but not by 17.5% pedantic i know .

but i have always thought as you stated that the ordinary dealers should be a good 10 to 15% cheaper than the big VAT reg dealers because it is a business and you have overheads to cover.

mark

Not necessarily the case Mark. You can only claim VAT back if the person you bought it from was UK Vat registered. So the average collector would not be vat registered for buying or selling records.

There are however, certain VAT schemes that registered vat businesses can apply to join where the VAT element of the deal is charged only on the PROFIT element of the transaction. Second Hand Motor Vehicles and antiques fall under this type of scheme, but I'm not sure about second hand records. I'll have to get my VAT notices out

All very boring I know, but there you go.

Anyway Mark, that kind of advice would normally set you back set you back a good few hundred quid, but send me the Johnny Vanelli and we'll call it straight. (And please, the Blue Dolphin copy, not that well dodgy TopTen boot/reissue that that mate of yours has got )

[Guest Baz]

The reason why some of the bigger dealers will be VAT registered would be purley for the fact of claiming the VAT back on the overheads, weahouses, storage, ect ect

[SteveM]

Mark, if John gets his 45s from USA he pays no VAT on the 45s but he still has to pay VAT to taxman. I fell into that trap when I was dealing full-time. He can't claim anything back on the records. So if he bought at $1000 and sold at £2000 cos he's registered he'd pay £350 VAT which puts up the cost of the initial purchase by 50%!!

Think Im right in that, aren't I John.

ROD

Hi Rod, in the normal vat scheme the vat on a £2000 sale would be £297.87 (7/47 of £2000). £350 would be the vat on top of £2000.

Sorry to be so boring but I'm feeling more like myself now. I'm off to look for Winnie, about him supporting Yorkshire cricket (say three times Sir Geoffrey is God).

I knew there was some good in him somewhere

[SteveM]

The reason why some of the bigger dealers will be VAT registered would be purley for the fact of claiming the VAT back on the overheads, weahouses, storage, ect ect

Theres also the value of turnover aspect though Baz. Its just under £60000 a year, and you HAVE to register.

[Guest Stuart T]

Theres also the value of turnover aspect though Baz. Its just under £60000 a year, and you HAVE to register.

Alternatively you could trade via a limited partnership domiciled in a non EU offshore jurisdiction which also charges a lower rate of corporation and income tax, just like HMV is doing with their online business.

John, send the records to Guernsey, we'll look after them for you.

I won't charge a penny for this advice, unlike that meanfisted tightwad beancounter from Yorkshire.

weahouses

Is that a small house or a khazi?

[SteveM]

Alternatively you could trade via a limited partnership domiciled in a non EU offshore jurisdiction which also charges a lower rate of corporation and income tax, just like HMV is doing with their online business.

But can you remit the profits back to the uk though Stuart ? (This needs its own thread, but this new bunch of mods are a bit, well, you know what I mean. Shane would not put up with this, whether he knew what it meant or not. At least Dans back in the fold, did they find out about him ? )

John, send the records to Guernsey, we'll look after them for you.

I won't charge a penny for this advice, unlike that meanfisted tightwad beancounter from Yorkshire.

There will be a price to pay somewhere along the line. Enron ?

[Guest Baz]

Theres also the value of turnover aspect though Baz. Its just under £60000 a year, and you HAVE to register.

Oh yes forgot about that bit, £60000 is naff all though really

Is that a small house or a khazi?

[Guest Stuart T]

I imagine that if you routed the proceeds via Switzerland to a private fund in Liechtenstein and then spent the money on solid gold bumpers for your car and then decided to smelt them into krugerrands after driving home to the UK it would all be just fine and dandy?

Is that a bit too off topic Shane?

Is Dan back?

Please don't mention Enron, not while its still being litigated in the US.

[KevH]

hi,read this thread with interest, talk of VAT ,record prices affected by " The Economy", maybe we need something like the Footsee Index to oversee the scene?(sorry Mak,i know it's a crap joke)

Edited September 28, 2006 by KevH

[Sanquine]

Guess John run's his business for the same reason's as the rest of us who run a business or go to work, to live. Just so happen's with time effort and good presentation as with everything, it has eventually paid off, bonus to John is his dream combining Income with pleasure has obviously come true. Something most of us can only sit and dream of though some will envy

In the last few year's mainly due to scare storie's (bottom falling out of record collecting etc), a few people have sold - some in job lot's. Dealer's like John have got to a position where they are able to buy collection's, so a lot of big stuff flow's through their fingers. Put on auction the buyer dictate's the price not the dealer these day's. Some prefer it so they are guaranteed authentication of the record - rather than maybe take a risk and buy from Ebay etc....

Think most of us have at one time or another used one of John's guide's whether price or boot etc... Let's move this thread away from one person - discuss in general again....

Though - whatever way you look at it - come's down to my original post - Credit card's - overdraft - loan's have all assisted in the high price's....

Best get some work done myself...

Karen

Edited September 28, 2006 by sanquine

[SteveM]

I imagine that if you routed the proceeds via Switzerland to a private fund in Liechtenstein and then spent the money on solid gold bumpers for your car and then decided to smelt them into krugerrands after driving home to the UK it would all be just fine and dandy?

Is that a bit too off topic Shane?

Is Dan back?

Please don't mention Enron, not while its still being litigated in the US.

He's not a mod anymore. And seeing as some of the targets are still around, I assumed he'd been compromised. What about Simsy ? Who's he sh......... hold on, probably best not to go there now he has the power.

[SteveM]

Guess John run's his business for the same reason's as the rest of us who run a business or go to work, to live. Just so happen's with time effort and good presentation as with everything, it has eventually paid off, bonus to John is his dream combining Income with pleasure has obviously come true. Something most of us can only sit and dream of though some will envy

In the last few year's mainly due to scare storie's (bottom falling out of record collecting etc), a few people have sold - some in job lot's. Dealer's like John have got to a position where they are able to buy collection's, so a lot of big stuff flow's through their fingers. Put on auction the buyer dictate's the price not the dealer these day's. Some prefer it so they are guaranteed authentication of the record - rather than maybe take a risk and buy from Ebay etc....

Think most of us have at one time or another used one of John's guide's whether price or boot etc... Let's move this thread away from one person - discuss in general again....

Though - whatever way you look at it - come's down to my original post - Credit card's - overdraft - loan's have all assisted in the high price's....

Best get some work done myself...

Karen

Back on topic . I agree Karen. Lots of purchases must have been funded by credit. When you can charge it to plastic, theres got to be the temptation to pay just that bit more in an auction.

[givemesoul]

Mr.M sold Lena Junoff, Olga demo, yesterday has gone,for if memory serves me £150 last week at auction,my copy sold on ebay last night for £26 with a full soundclip ex con played mint, don't know what's going on

[Glyn Williams]

"Is it time to ofload the big hitters and stash the money for a few years in order to rebuy them back at half the price? Go on admit it.... you know you've mulled that one over! tongue.gif "

ALREADY DID THAT - IN 2001 WHEN EBAY DIDNT EVEN HAVE A NS SECTION

Got £20 for marvelettes with a crack through it - bought back for £5 mint, got £50 for holly st james on soul fox - bought back on original for £30 etc etc - actually bought a £15k conservatory with the proceeds too

Bought em all back now for less than half the price

[Guest]

The reason why some of the bigger dealers will be VAT registered would be purley for the fact of claiming the VAT back on the overheads, weahouses, storage, ect ect

Baz,

Don't be so cinical, all VAT registered dealers write out a fat cheque for Europe every 3 months. I don't mind too much cause I might need some plumbing doing by Romanian one day..should be cheaper..

[paultp]

Baz,

Don't be so cinical, all VAT registered dealers write out a fat cheque for Europe every 3 months. I don't mind too much cause I might need some plumbing doing by Romanian one day..should be cheaper..

And its due tomorrow ....

Now what about that Rufus Wonder?

Edited September 28, 2006 by paultp

[Guest]

Prices are due a fall surely. What gets me is the prices of really common records

David Ruffin - Walk away from love - £20 - what's that all about? see copies of it in viertually every second hand record shop i go into - so where does the £20 price come from?

That's just one example i wouldn't want to be starting collecting these days whose going to buy stuff blind or on recommendations from others if their a minimum of £20 a pop?

There doesn't seem to be any logic in the pricing these days

Derek

[Pete S]

Mr.M sold Lena Junoff, Olga demo, yesterday has gone,for if memory serves me £150 last week at auction,my copy sold on ebay last night for £26 with a full soundclip ex con played mint, don't know what's going on

I'd have said £26 was a quid too much, never in this world is that record worth more than £25 so who are these people who are happy to pay five or six times the 'real' value? And why?

[Guest Baz]

Baz,

Don't be so cinical, all VAT registered dealers write out a fat cheque for Europe every 3 months. I don't mind too much cause I might need some plumbing doing by Romanian one day..should be cheaper..

Im not being cinical, i too write out a fat cheque every three months, its all part of running a business, you cant make money fron VAT so its not a big issue, was mearly stating thats what you would claim the VAT back on.

[Guest]

The reason why some of the bigger dealers will be VAT registered would be purley for the fact of claiming the VAT back on the overheads, weahouses, storage, ect ect

don't you HAVE to become vat reg if you're tunover is above a certain figure?

[Guest]

Im not being cinical, i too write out a fat cheque every three months, its all part of running a business, you cant make money fron VAT so its not a big issue, was mearly stating thats what you would claim the VAT back on.

Sorry mate..i'm sure your not cinical..don't it piss you off, paying to be in Europe..so they can waste it.. Edited September 28, 2006 by john manship

[Guest Stuart T]

don't you HAVE to become vat reg if you're tunover is above a certain figure?

£60k as mentioned by Steve above.

John, there are ways of making money out of VAT

[Youyou]

Dear all,

just a comment from a former German and now Canadian point of view.

For me a big problem buying records in the UK is the strong pound. Normally I buy cheapies, but even these cheapies do cost between 10 and 20 pounds.

In the majority of cases I am able to find this record for 10 to 20 dollars in the US.

20 Pound = 42 Canadian Dollar

20 US Dollar = 22 Canadian Dollar

Take care

YouYou

[Guest GoodRecordsNYC]

... and conversely, if an item is auctioned by an American (or anyone with a weak currency) it can be bid up higher because the price remains (relatively) low in other currecies. Or you up your set sale price and everybody's mad!

I personally don't change my rate because the US dollar sucks, I don't think my local customers would be too happy with that.

[Guest]

Sorry mate..i'm sure your not cinical..don't it piss you off, paying to be in Europe..so they can waste it..

Eh!!,dont talk stupid........s`pose we should get a free membership to the Euro club then,makes sense ,s`pose you should fukc off outa` Europe if you dont wanna` be in it ,i was born in it,i`m happy with it.....