Current Bootleg Trading (split from Soul Pack thread)

[Julianb]

1 hour ago, guest said:

 

Some 'top DJ's' have been spinning these boots at venues [maybe a chance to off load their originals ] but carry on with the kudos attached.

How can anyone describe these disreptubale and deceitful people 'top DJs'???

[whereismy record]

I have followed this thread on here and elsewhere with interest and as someone who buys records, to be honest, my opinion NIKNAK you have opened a can of worms that needed to be opened and highlighted this issue. 

For me, as it has been discussed previously, the labels should have been white or copies or with and distinguishing mark on the label identifying them, my personal opinion being honest, they should not have been done at all, especially not secretly.  Caught Red Handed and the only people I feel for is the ones that have been ripped off by these coming into circulation.

[Fishcake]

Now Nicholas Clarke single handedly ruined all that for me. I hope he can sleep at night after breaking all his promises both verbal and in writing

Quote from Ian Levine above

What about Geoff Swallows involvement ?,apparently trying to sell one of the Magnetics boots as a Original.

Did IL criticise him or unfriend ? No

Surely he betrayed him aswell.

[Mike]

site note - the posts above were split from the original topic in order to provide a suitable place to discuss current bootlegging separate from the soul pack sales dispute topic

 

 

[Frankie Crocker]

5 hours ago, fishcake said:

Now Nicholas Clarke single handedly ruined all that for me. I hope he can sleep at night after breaking all his promises both verbal and in writing

Quote from Frankie Howard at the Blackpool Hippodrome...

Is that a muffled titter running round the courtroom. Nick, infamy, infamy...

Edited January 28, 2016 by FRANKIE CROCKER
Typo

[Davenpete]

I'm sorry but (between this and the other thread) what an absolute load of sanctimonious double think and unfair point scoring against Ian, with anyone offering any comments to try and add balance to the pack mentality being accused of being in cahoots with him in some way. As I understand it from what's been said in this thread:

1. Those people who have received them have been made to promise on their honour that they would never sell them - or pass them on to any third party.

2. Ian has made no attempt to sell any of these and has circulated them only to a very small group of people. 

3. Many of the discs have never been released on 45 - so how could they be passed off as 'originals'

4. The world is absolutely awash with bootlegs being passed off as the real thing for profit - why are these not far more offensive than what Ian is doing.

5. Over the years you and I know that there are many respected DJs who've got up to it (I could name specifics but I won't) - I've never previously seen Ian accused of it - despite as probably the greatest breaker of new discoveries ever he has been in the best position imaginable to do so (coz nobody knew what the real thing looked like).

6. As these seem to simply be label lookalikes on standard vinyl any collector worth the name should be able to spot the lack of matrix stamps etc etc

Dave

Edited January 28, 2016 by DaveNPete

[Pete S]

54 minutes ago, DaveNPete said:

I'm sorry but (between this and the other thread) what an absolute load of sanctimonious double think and unfair point scoring against Ian, with anyone offering any comments to try an add balance to the pack mentality being accused of being in cahoots with him in some way. As I understand it from what's been said in this thread:

1. Those people who have received have been made to promise on their honour that they would never sell them - or pass them on to any third party.

2. Ian has made no attempt to sell any of these and has circulated them only to a very small group of people. 

3. Many of the discs have never been released on 45 - so how could they be passed off as 'originals'

4. The world is absolutely awash with bootlegs being passed off as the real thing for profit - why are these not far more offensive than what Ian is doing.

5. Over the years you and I know that there are many respected DJs who've got up to it (I could name specifics but I won't) - I've never previously seen Ian accused of it - despite as probably the greatest breaker of new discoveries ever he has been in the best position imaginable to do so (coz nobody knew what the real thing looked like).

6. As these seem to simply be label lookalikes on standard vinyl any collector worth the name should be able to spot the lack of matrix stamps etc etc

Dave

Well said Dave.  

[Chris L]

On 1/22/2016 at 21:04, Mace said:

Doubt anyone would press as little as 30 copies of each to be honest.........also didn't Simon Soussan apparently re-surface in recent months..........?????  Could history be repeating itself?..........

 

When and where is/was that ?

[Pete S]

14 hours ago, fishcake said:

Now Nicholas Clarke single handedly ruined all that for me. I hope he can sleep at night after breaking all his promises both verbal and in writing

Quote from Ian Levine above

What about Geoff Swallows involvement ?,apparently trying to sell one of the Magnetics boots as a Original.

Did IL criticise him or unfriend ? No

Surely he betrayed him aswell.

How do you know he didn't?

[Chris L]

1 hour ago, DaveNPete said:

I'm sorry but (between this and the other thread) what an absolute load of sanctimonious double think and unfair point scoring against Ian, with anyone offering any comments to try an add balance to the pack mentality being accused of being in cahoots with him in some way. As I understand it from what's been said in this thread:

 

If Ian was late in feeding his dogs I'm sure it would end up on here...............

[Kegsy]

1 hour ago, Chris L said:

If Ian was late in feeding his dogs I'm sure it would end up on here...............

God help him if he refers to the subject matter as a "bunch" of records. 

[Pete S]

26 minutes ago, guest said:

Pete - the valid and relevant questions would have been asked whoever it was behind these deceive-a-likes . 

But why?  

[Pete S]

True, but you don't need to know who made the fake clothes though, this is the part I don't get.

[Soulof]

13 hours ago, guest said:

I'm glad niknak brought the boots to my attention - so thank you . All this 'for friends and not to be sold' malarky - what a load of cobblers . Guarantee they will find their way into the marketplace [already have] and someone else will get rumped . The difference is with these boots is that they look like they were made to deceive - unlike your common or garden ones which are generally not . Remember the Four Vandals 45 - this was made to fool 'collectors' .

 

Same here also glad this has been brought to our attention. At least we know a few mote titles to keep an extra suspicious eye on. 

 From the list I only own the Louis Paul one ( not familiar with all titles if I'm honest).  Most copies of this record that I seen are in good condition both vinyl and label so a counterfeit one displayed online or even at a venue could definitely fool a buyer.  Sorry if this has been covered before but are there any attempts to scribble in matrix numbers on these boots?    

 

[Pete S]

3 minutes ago, guest said:

Totally agree - but as I said before - not interested in who at all - just want to log the information on certain 45's for future reference .

Shall I make a guide?  (Serious question, not sarcasm)

[Mike]

18 minutes ago, Soulof said:

 

Same here also glad this has been brought to our attention. At least we know a few mote titles to keep an extra suspicious eye on. 

 From the list I only own the Louis Paul one ( not familiar with all titles if I'm honest).  Most copies of this record that I seen are in good condition both vinyl and label so a counterfeit one displayed online or even at a venue could definitely fool a buyer.  Sorry if this has been covered before but are there any attempts to scribble in matrix numbers on these boots?    

 

 

currently catching up on this  thread

have moved @Soulof post to this thread as better suited

 

 

looking at recent posts 

ask all members to keep things factual and related to the actual subject - current bootleg trading 

 

thanks

 

[Steve G]

25 minutes ago, Pete S said:

True, but you don't need to know who made the fake clothes though, this is the part I don't get.

I suppose really because these were good looking, amongst the best I have ever seen. Everyone knows what they are getting with a crudely stuck on label from Nottingham or wherever, but the ones I saw in this batch (Rita Graham, Magnetics, JWR and Greater Experience) actually looked pretty close to the originals. Yes of course a serious collector can tell up close, and we know B Woods and Sam Williams were all styrene on OV and so easy to tell.  So immediately collectors are going to ask how many more are there?, where did they come from?, is this the tip of the iceberg?, is my copy I got last month original? etc. etc. 

[Pete S]

7 minutes ago, guest said:

What to soul packs or dealers ?

To the new lookalikes - matrixes etc

[maslar]

3 minutes ago, guest said:

I knew what you meant Pete . To be honest from the scans already shown - the new vinyl , swirls and overall look are a dead give away . The distressed one's look to contrived ie, a bit like 'ageing' wood or something to give a fake 'patina' . The ones that are a bit more difficult are the unreleased tracks that suddenly appear on 'original' 45's - even harder if they are 'distressed' a bit .

Huh? surely these are the easiest to identify? And also the least contentious?

Edited January 28, 2016 by maslar

[Pete S]

8 minutes ago, guest said:

I knew what you meant Pete . To be honest from the scans already shown - the new vinyl , swirls and overall look are a dead give away . The distressed one's look to contrived ie, a bit like 'ageing' wood or something to give a fake 'patina' . The ones that are a bit more difficult are the unreleased tracks that suddenly appear on 'original' 45's - even harder if they are 'distressed' a bit .

If anyone has 'distressed' the records, they've done it themselves after receiving them so that's nothing to go on.  And as Maslar says below, the previously not on singles releases are the easiest to spot because...they don't exist

 

[maslar]

7 minutes ago, guest said:

Let's say you had access to some unreleased material . You issue a track with a fictitious name on the same label as the known releases on this label . Let's say for arguments sake the label runs 5001 , 5002 , 5003 , 5004 , 5005 . You issue the unreleased material as 5006 with spot on artwork/labels [as you can do these days] . Suddenly a new 45 is discovered 'never thought to have been released' and there you go . A possibility ?

Absolutely not. Well not to me anyway.

A good beginners 101 would be to go to popsike. The "no results" would be a pretty good starting point for any further investigation. There is so much info available nowadays -detailed discographies such as on  soulfulkindamusic, that really any such record should be easily spotted for what it is (in terms. of actual release).

And if by some chance this really did happen (a genuine "find" came to light) then the subsequent investigation would easily validate it. 

Edited January 28, 2016 by maslar

[Pga1]

Sam Moore plenty good lovin obviously now known as plenty lovin on Atlantic  how was that missed ? Cheers

[Kegsy]

20 minutes ago, guest said:

Johnny Watson / It's better to cry / Valise 6913 - exactly what happened - although subsequently sussed .

What someone had to say -

'Without doubt, almost the biggest fraud involving "Northern Soul" records.This previously unreleased recording was passed of as a "Rare Find - only 3 copies known". At £1600 each they were the most expensive new releases. The fraud was spotted though and collectors refunded.'

 

I always had my doubts about that Trickbag thing, especially after I visited a certain dealers shop in Las Vegas and saw a box of brand spanking new copies, that I don't think I was supposed to see, being spirited behind the counter.

 

Edited January 28, 2016 by Kegsy

[maslar]

18 minutes ago, guest said:

Johnny Watson / It's better to cry / Valise 6913 - exactly what happened - although subsequently sussed .

What someone had to say -

'Without doubt, almost the biggest fraud involving "Northern Soul" records.This previously unreleased recording was passed of as a "Rare Find - only 3 copies known". At £1600 each they were the most expensive new releases. The fraud was spotted though and collectors refunded.'

 

I think that release had it's own unique characteristics and isn't at all the same thing that we're talking about.

[Steve G]

.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Steve G

[Mike]

different thread Steve

this new thread is set up to discuss trading bootlegging records

15 hours ago, mike said:

site note - the posts above were split from the original topic in order to provide a suitable place to discuss current bootlegging separate from the soul pack sales dispute topic

 

 

 

 

[Mike]

 

for info 
 

@Pete S has posted a 'guide' to the recent bootlegs - link above

have closed it so for now all discussion is in one place - ie  this thread

 

 

[Davenpete]

1 hour ago, guest said:

Let's say you had access to some unreleased material . You issue a track with a fictitious name on the same label as the known releases on this label . Let's say for arguments sake the label runs 5001 , 5002 , 5003 , 5004 , 5005 . You issue the unreleased material as 5006 with spot on artwork/labels [as you can do these days] . Suddenly a new 45 is discovered 'never thought to have been released' and there you go . A possibility ?

Actually NO you can't copy labels perfectly nowadays (at least not to the eye of someone in the print business) - most of the cheapo cheapo local labels' production runs were printed letterpress on coloured paper (pretty impossible to get nowadays in the right weight) or overprinted on pre-printed litho labels (hence the splodgy type on most - especially with silver text) - letterpress is literally almost impossible to get done now as nobody has the presses any more... It would be possible to absolutely perfectly copy a record (matrix stamps and all) if you had unlimited access to master cutting (to get the run ins and runouts right etc etc) and a granvure die maker to do the matrix stamps etc - but the record would probably cost you at least a couple of grand before it ever went on press.

Dx

Edited January 28, 2016 by DaveNPete

[baudrillard]

Just checked Pete Smith's guide against my Jeanie Tracey and the matrix numbers are spot on. There are no other identifying marks and, from the scan put up earlier this week, the labels look the same, too. Although I obviously haven't seen the actual record, from what I've seen and read on here it would, I'm guessing, be pretty tricky to distinguish between this new boot and the original. Annoying for me as I was toying with the idea of selling, but also begs the question: if there was never any intent to deceive, why replicate the matrix numbers so exactly?

[Kegsy]

4 minutes ago, baudrillard said:

Just checked Pete Smith's guide against my Jeanie Tracey and the matrix numbers are spot on. There are no other identifying marks and, from the scan put up earlier this week, the labels look the same, too. Although I obviously haven't seen the actual record, from what I've seen and read on here it would, I'm guessing, be pretty tricky to distinguish between this new boot and the original. Annoying for me as I was toying with the idea of selling, but also begs the question: if there was never any intent to deceive, why replicate the matrix numbers so exactly?

Begs the question who would have ALL 14 originals in order to supply in depth matrix details etc. ?. The vinyl pressed copies of styrene only originals is certainly a pretty weird anomaly, if the intent was primarily to deceive, why not just replicate originals that were on vinyl. 

[Pete S]

John Wesley

 

Love Is Such A Funny Thing /Stop The Music
Dead wax details

 

Love Is Such A Funny Thing
At 11 0 clock scratched inM-4196 R-250

 

Stop The Music
At 5 0 clock M-7195 R-849

 

Circular pattern easy to see even without bright light

 

 

 

 

 

Billy Woods

 

Let Me Make You Happy / That Was The Love That Was
Dead wax details

 

Let Me Make You Happy

 

At 7 0 clock SUX 213 B scratched in
At 5 0 clock very poor triangle a la Monarch, sides aren’t straight and two sides don’t meet at the top.  Delta number 100849 scratched in.
That Was The Love That Was

 

At 7 0 clock as above but triangle looks more like a small arrow. 

 

At 2 0 clock SUX 213-A scratched in.

 

This side also has something extra – the word TRAY scratched in in large capital letters.

 

Circular pattern quite hard to see.

 

This copy is vinyl, the original is styrene.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

48 minutes ago, baudrillard said:

Just checked Pete Smith's guide against my Jeanie Tracey and the matrix numbers are spot on. There are no other identifying marks and, from the scan put up earlier this week, the labels look the same, too. Although I obviously haven't seen the actual record, from what I've seen and read on here it would, I'm guessing, be pretty tricky to distinguish between this new boot and the original. Annoying for me as I was toying with the idea of selling, but also begs the question: if there was never any intent to deceive, why replicate the matrix numbers so exactly?

Sorry I have to disagree, firstly, I did make it plain that it was extremely easy to spot the concentric circle pattern on the label, and secondly, I have no idea if the handwriting on the numbers is the same on original and copy.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Pete S
spelling

[maslar]

just out  of interest and for clarification how many of these new batch of  pressings have been sold as originals. Explicitly as originals with an accompanying price tag? Is a figure known?

[Pete S]

27 minutes ago, maslar said:

just out  of interest and for clarification how many of these new batch of  pressings have been sold as originals. Explicitly as originals with an accompanying price tag? Is a figure known?

One that I know of.  It was the shot that was heard around the world.  

[Pete S]

This is what bugs me though.  NO one has said a dicky bird about this and the other counterfeits coming from this source...

[Steve G]

Never seen it before Pete, who is this one from? 

[Pete S]

Willie Tee
Please Don’t Go / My Heart Remembers
Dead wax details
Please Don’t Go
At 11 0 clock 174-2332

At 5 0 clock NIA-737 A

My Heart Remembers

At 7 0 clock NIA-737 B

At 4 0 clock 174-2333

The giveaway on this one is that the label is slightly too small, a black outer ridge can be seen before the run off groove.  The white of the label is really bright white instead of dull white and the printing of Dist. By Dover Records at the bottom is not well defined at all.  The circle pattern is extremely hard to see but can just about be seen in the black box under the 737 number.

 

 

 

[Modernsoulsucks]

56 minutes ago, maslar said:

just out  of interest and for clarification how many of these new batch of  pressings have been sold as originals. Explicitly as originals with an accompanying price tag? Is a figure known?

Good luck with that question.

A mystery wrapped in an enigma from reading this thread.

I'd just like some facts as to who, if anybody, has misrepresented these 45s for sale.

Wouldn't want them using this site to do the same.

Hopefully though now out in the open opportunities to do so are severely limited.

[Peter99]

28 minutes ago, Pete S said:

This is what bugs me though.  NO one has said a dicky bird about this and the other counterfeits coming from this source...

Do people know about it though Pete - not everyone gets to hear some of the stuff you hear.

 

 

[Pete S]

2 minutes ago, Peter99 said:

Do people know about it though Pete - not everyone gets to hear some of the stuff you hear.

 

 

It's on ebay and facebook and websites mate

[Peter99]

Just now, Pete S said:

It's on ebay and facebook and websites mate

Fair enough Pete

I don't go on Facebook - well hardly ever.

[Pete S]

UPDATED LIST

GUIDE TO THE “NEW LOOKALIKES” by PETE SMITH

 

Jonathan Capree

Gonna Build Me A Mountain / Big City
Ox Bow

 

Dead wax details:
Gonna Build Me A Mountain

At 4 0 clock RI 3109A scratched in

At 3 0 clock looks like CI/M DW scratched in but much smaller than the one mentioned above

Big City
as above except says RI 3109B instead of A and the smaller markings read RI/M DW
Circular pattern on label is very easy to see around the centre
Black print on original is darker

 

 

Sam Williams
Love Slipped Through My Fingers / Let’s Talk It Over
Tower

 

Dead wax details:
Love Slipped Through My Fingers
At 2 0 clock 61554 . T – 367 scratched in
Let’s Talk It Over
At 12 0 clock 61553   T – 367
Circular pattern on label is hard to see except for on the black of the Tower logo

Record is pressed on vinyl – original is on styrene

 

 

Jeanie Tracy
Making New Friends / Trippin On The Sounds
Brown Door

Dead wax details:
Making New Friends

At 11 0 clock 131238A – 1A scratched in
Trippin On The Sounds
At 6 0 clock 131238B – 1A

Circular pattern on label extremely easy to see

 

 

The Districts

One Lover (Just Won’t Do) / Like Clouds

Nile

 

Dead wax details:
One Lover (Just Won’t Do)
At 7 0 clock N40A scratched in
Like Clouds
At 7 0 clock N40B scratched in
Circular pattern very easy to see around centre and on Nile records logo

 

 

The Salvadors

Stick By Me Baby / I Wanna Dance

Wise World

 

Dead wax details
Stick By Me Baby
At 10 0 clock 62771 scratched in

I Wanna Dance

At 5 0 clock 62772 scratched in

Circular pattern easy to see all over when held to the light

 

 

 

The Greater Experience

Don’t Forget To Remember / Carol’s Carol
Colony “13” records

 

Dead wax details

Don’t Forget To Remember

At 8 0 clock very light CS scratched in. At 6 0 clock CSP – 45 2572A

Carol’s Carol
Reading anti clockwise from 9 0 clock small c inside large C and small s inside large S scratched in then CSP – 45 2572 – B

Original has a very deep CS stamp. Original is much glossier print, darker lettering.  The “Forget” in the title is almost touching the edge of the label on the original. 

The circular pattern is very hard to see on this one.

 

 

 

John Wesley

Love Is Such A Funny Thing /Stop The Music
Dead wax details

Love Is Such A Funny Thing
At 11 0 clock scratched inM-4196 R-250

Stop The Music
At 5 0 clock M-7195 R-849

Circular pattern easy to see even without bright light

 

 

Billy Woods

Let Me Make You Happy / That Was The Love That Was
Dead wax details

Let Me Make You Happy

At 7 0 clock SUX 213 B scratched in
At 5 0 clock very poor triangle a la Monarch, sides aren’t straight and two sides don’t meet at the top.  Delta number 100849 scratched in.
That Was The Love That Was

At 7 0 clock as above but triangle looks more like a small arrow. 

At 2 0 clock SUX 213-A scratched in.

This side also has something extra – the word TRAY scratched in in large capital letters.

Circular pattern quite hard to see.

This copy is vinyl, the original is styrene.

 

 

Willie Tee
Please Don’t Go / My Heart Remembers
Dead wax details
Please Don’t Go
At 11 0 clock 174-2332

At 5 0 clock NIA-737 A

My Heart Remembers

At 7 0 clock NIA-737 B

At 4 0 clock 174-2333

The giveaway on this one is that the label is slightly too small, a black outer ridge can be seen before the run off groove.  The white of the label is really bright white instead of dull white and the printing of Dist. By Dover Records at the bottom is not well defined at all.  The circle pattern is extremely hard to see but can just about be seen in the black box under the 737 number.

 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Peter99 said:

Fair enough Pete

I don't go on Facebook - well hardly ever.

Facebook is the new Black, apparently.

Massive massive amount of records sold to an incredibly huge captive audience - I can reach 500 people on here or on my list, but 15000 on facebook

I wish my posts would stop merging as they are unrelated

[Chris L]

6 hours ago, Kegsy said:

God help him if he refers to the subject matter as a "bunch" of records. 

Hang him...............

[Mike]

yet another off topic post removed

have asked a few times now

action will be taken if get any more!

[Soul-slider]

This is a recent one doing the rounds, trouble is it's a re-recording!

 

 

[Pete S]

14 minutes ago, Soul-Slider said:

This is a recent one doing the rounds, trouble is it's a re-recording!

 

 

How do you mean, a re recording, what like a new version?  Never heard another version of this apart from the Bob Fowler one.  

[Soul-slider]

22 minutes ago, Pete S said:

How do you mean, a re recording, what like a new version?  Never heard another version of this apart from the Bob Fowler one.  

Yes Pete, sounds like a newer version. I can't do sound files but maybe someone on here can supply? It is good though and maybe it has just been 'beefed' up like some of the 'Studio One' re-presses (you'll know what I mean).

Just seems weird that it has been pressed using the original label.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Soul-Slider

[Pete S]

4 minutes ago, Soul-Slider said:

Yes Pete, sounds like a newer version. I can't do sound files but maybe someone on here can supply? It is good though and maybe it has just been 'beefed' up like some of the 'Studio One' re-presses (you'll know what I mean).

Just seems weird that it has been pressed using the original label.

I'll see if any of the ebay ones have a sound clip

[Soul-slider]

Found it. It's this one....

 

 

[Pete S]

52 minutes ago, Soul-Slider said:

This is a recent one doing the rounds, trouble is it's a re-recording!

 

 

Oh the irony of it all.  This is an Ian Levine production LOL, he recorded her on a whole album of remakes in 1999 for Marathon Media, the people who bootlegged it obviously ripped it off youtube thinking it was the original version.  Comedy gold, Ian Levine being bootlegged, on the Ian Levine bootleg thread.

[Ian Parker]

Candi, what have you done ? ??? 

Edited January 28, 2016 by IanP