Ian Levine Soul Pack's

[Pete S]

1 minute ago, markw said:

I don't think anyone has any suspicions about you or your intentions Pete.

Well thanks for saying that Mark.  

[Peter99]

17 minutes ago, Tony Smith said:

Can't believe anyone has bought these "Soul Packs" expecting much to be honest, bought some off Silverfox records 100 for £250, all were Unplayed old stock at least, sold 6 records and covered 30% OK. So misrepresentation is the issue and I find it hard to believe bootlegs are being lauded because they are not intended for sale!, of course they will leak out, and someone will get stiffed. Just saying.

Spot on Tony.

[Tony Smith]

13 minutes ago, Pete S said:

And again, I will tell you that it won't be from me because I have one copy of each and I do not sell bootlegs as originals.  Seriously, one copy.  and I want to keep Salvadors, Sam W etc.

 

Not saying you would Pete, but it will happen for sure.

[pow wow mik]

24 minutes ago, Tony Smith said:

Not saying you would Pete, but it will happen for sure.

Already happened, I've just heard. As we see in every field of human endeavour that you can imagine, greedy corrupt shitbags always around to ruin it. No wonder aliens wont talk to us.

[Frankie Crocker]

4 hours ago, markw said:

Why would someone go to the not insignificant expense and trouble of reproducing good and convincing counterfeits of top end value rare records and then give them away? That is indeed a most generous friend.

Giving away something that is essentially worthless isn't generous but baseless, shallow and unfriendly...

[Peter99]

4 minutes ago, Ian Dewhirst said:

Yep. I'm that way inclined tonight. I have been re-calibrating my 7" key play-out collection over the last 5 months and replacing a lot of stuff as well as clearing out some of those old bootlegs that were on the shelves that I would never actually play in a million years and I've now realised that that there is a massive market for this stuff, especially with younger people who would never get access to the originals and who could never afford them anyway. So it's better that I pass 'em on, rather than letting 'em wallow on my shelves.

In the 90s, I had a particularly good Mel Britt repro which wasn't for sale but some nutcase insisted that they had to buy that copy for £50 at the time, so I sold it. No big deal. I thought I could replace it. But I couldn't. So despite being a repro, I wish I'd kept it.

So I'd love to have a look at these Salvadors and Billy Woods repros because they'll probably be way superior to the ones I have. I want to see exactly how close they can get to the originals from a professional viewpoint. So is someone gonna send me 'em since, apparently, they're free? Am I not in the inner circle...?

Ian D

 

It's the Free "Vinyl" Masons. 

 

[Guest niknak]

5 hours ago, WoodButcher said:

So is it fair to assume that the bootlegs are coming from Ian Levine then ... ? ...  these things being so exclusive but he can dole out 14 just like that ... !

 

It's hard to say. What i do know is, one of Ian own legit record released last year The Sensationelles was made at the same pressing plant. You place this record next to the boots & every tiny detail is identical. The stand out tell is the squaring off of the label on the side by the matrix numbers (the matrix numbers on the label, not the run out) This 'tell' is on all the boots.

[Geeselad]

4 hours ago, pow wow mik said:

Yeah, would be great, except for the shortage of newies and exclusives

and tolerance and progressive attitudes.......

[Chris L]

Having read the threads coming to the conclusion that this is more an oppertunity to stick it to Ian Levine and not much more. Tens of sellers sell soul packs, the same amount of people sell (and press) boots and they hardly see the light of day on here. If a buyer isn't happy then send them back for a refund don't plaster it all over place, by all accounts the majority of buyers of Ian Levines soul packs have been satisfied otherwise he'd not be selling any and have to stop. Ian Levine invades Poland.

[Jnixon]

17 hours ago, Chris L said:

Perhaps I can sum up. Niknak bought 1000 soul records, received 1050+ so less than a £1.00 each. On top of that you received a quantity of pressings that are not generally for sale but probably could be sold for £100.00 each on Ebay. So I'm guessing the total value of what you got was about £2000/2500 at least, not bad.

Here's a link to Ian Levines podcast, the listeners give very good feedback for some of those you received. 

https://www.mixcloud.com/ianlevine35/solid-soul-sensations-a-very-special-and-unique-podcast/

You got for what you paid and more what's the complaint again ?

 

Perhaps I can sum up - his complaint is that he was oversold with a load of hype and got delivered a load of tripe. The classic say anything to get the money then send any old shit, he seems to feel.

I did toy with the idea of buying a few grands worth from him a year or two back as stock for my discogs shop but didnt due to the fear of this kind of thing happening. Just end up with loads of tut you cant ever shift.

For under a grand you could have some custom made wallpaper to look like there are shelves and piles of records on the wall. This would seem less pointless than buying 1000 tunes most of which are dross.

Edited January 23, 2016 by JNixon

[Woodbutcher]

13 minutes ago, Okehdownsouth said:

These copies are produced for one purpose only and that is to rip off genuine collectors. Whoever is getting them pressed is a scum bag should be strung up!

Can someone please post a list of these records so that I can remove them from my wants list

List's already been posted.

[Lambrettagp200]

6 minutes ago, Chris L said:

Having read the threads coming to the conclusion that this is more an oppertunity to stick it to Ian Levine and not much more. Tens of sellers sell soul packs, the same amount of people sell (and press) boots and they hardly see the light of day on here. If a buyer isn't happy then send them back for a refund don't plaster it all over place, by all accounts the majority of buyers of Ian Levines soul packs have been satisfied otherwise he'd not be selling any and have to stop. Ian Levine invades Poland.

No your wrong.

It's all about a bloke who didn't get what he paid for.

Then after getting lambasted for complaining, gets sent counterfeit records as compensation.

Pretty simple really......just a bloke not getting what he is due & letting others know about it.

[Tlscapital]

37 minutes ago, WoodButcher said:

List's already been posted.

partially and incompletely only... more to come maybe...

[Len]

Part of the fun when I bought Soul Packs in the 80's and 90's was sorting out the piles of 'dross', the 'oks', the 'well I'll keep it for nows', and the 'wows'........Some of those back then Soul Packs items are now highly sort after......You never know your luck 

All the best,

Len 

[Ian Dewhirst]

11 minutes ago, LEN said:

Part of the fun when I bought Soul Packs in the 80's and 90's was sorting out the piles of 'dross', the 'oks', the 'well I'll keep it for nows', and the 'wows'........Some of those back then Soul Packs items are now highly sort after......You never know your luck 

All the best,

Len 

Plus tastes change over the years. I left a 100 count box of Lew Kirtons in the mid 70s 'cos you couldn't give that record away then. 10 years later a different story. Arnold Blair was a soulpack record which no one bothered with and now it's a £100 record. Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it?

Ian D

[Sjclement]

27 minutes ago, LEN said:

Part of the fun when I bought Soul Packs in the 80's and 90's was sorting out the piles of 'dross', the 'oks', the 'well I'll keep it for nows', and the 'wows'........Some of those back then Soul Packs items are now highly sort after......You never know your luck 

All the best,

Len 

Jerry Washington on Glades came out of a soulpack I got from Soul Bowl back in the seventies, seen it go for £900 in the past as Ian (D) says hindsight is a wonderful thing, I found time to listen to the podcast that features some of the soul pack tunes and made a list of the ones I liked, found most of them on Discogs for £3.00- £5.00, a lot I had already got mostly in that modern/crossover vein. (the sellers could be recipients of one of Ian's packs) .

So I'll pick up those items from Discogs sellers in the next few months beats paying £1000.

Collection building by buying 1000's of records at a time ? surely the measure of a good collection is quality not quantity, I know what I'd rather spend a grand on.

The boots, superior bootlegs of unobtainable stuff and mega rare items given to the select few dealers and DJ's for free ! I can see how this would annoy anyone whose not in the circle, could it be that this is the purpose.

[Len]

1 hour ago, Ian Dewhirst said:

Plus tastes change over the years. I left a 100 count box of Lew Kirtons in the mid 70s 'cos you couldn't give that record away then. 10 years later a different story. Arnold Blair was a soulpack record which no one bothered with and now it's a £100 record. Hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it?

Ian D

Yes - I'm now DJing with a lot of my 'Well I'll keep it for nows' 

Len 

Edited January 23, 2016 by LEN

[Len]

I think a Soul Pack back then was only £10.00, can't quite remember, but they were cheap for the amount of records, and I'd always have pretty low expectations because I knew the 'gamble' was one sided towards the record dealer - It was their way of shifting a load of left overs, putting in a few good ones made the deal worthwhile to the buyer (just)

I knew they weren't doing it for me anyway 

Len 

[Garethx]

25 minutes ago, Steve G said:

The mid tempo cut off of his Capitol LP….I can't be arced to go and find it now, but its the best track on the LP. Done on a moody Gatur 45.

Cheers Steve. This topic is interesting. 

[Mike]

important info 

this thread was deleted in error earlier today by myself while deleting off topic posts

it has been restored but only to the point of last backup 3 days ago

will open once have done the below

i will re-post ian levines email response shortly

 

 

 

 

 

[Sheldonsoul]

It's the first time I've quoted on this thread, my point of view is niknak bought a soulpack in good faith from mr levine, the said pack was very poor battered records etc, what's he supposed to do shut up and say nothing ! If you were to buy an electrical item from currys take it home and it doesn't work what do you do you take it back simple as. As for the extra rare records 15 ks worth  for a 1k deal he received as a softener and was sworn to secrecy well that just adds fuel to the fire for me and strengthens  niknaks case even more

Edited January 27, 2016 by sheldonsoul

[Pete S]

4 hours ago, sheldonsoul said:

It's the first time I've quoted on this thread, my point of view is niknak bought a soulpack in good faith from mr levine, the said pack was very poor battered records etc, what's he supposed to do shut up and say nothing ! If you were to buy an electrical item from currys take it home and it doesn't work what do you do you take it back simple as. As for the extra rare records 15 ks worth  for a 1k deal he received as a softener and was sworn to secrecy well that just adds fuel to the fire for me and strengthens  niknaks case even more

If you buy and electrical item from Currys and it doesn't work, you take it back - and then you go on the internet and tell everyone about it.

[Spook]

Actually you can tell everybody about it on the internet, by putting in a bad review against the item you have purchased on Curry's website against the product you have purchased.

[Chalky]

27 minutes ago, spook said:

Actually you can tell everybody about it on the internet, by putting in a bad review against the item you have purchased on Curry's website against the product you have purchased.

You can also get a full refund if not happy. 

[Mike Lofthouse]

I don't think buying something from Curry's is a very good analogy.   Curry's sell brand new branded items from worlds largest manufacturers - that you have full legal recourse for if they are not as described.   Ian's Soul packs consist of second hand fifty year old fragile pieces of plastic.  Do you take these things back for a refund if you pick them up at car boot sales or when you go 'digging' for records?  From what I have seen when he advertises these packs he even describes  them to say that some are rough and need cleaning.  They are priced at £1 each - I know exactly what I would get if bought them - I think a bit of common sense is needed here  and I think some people need to be a bit less disingenuous and naive.

[Shinehead]

10 minutes ago, Mike Lofthouse said:

I don't think buying something from Curry's is a very good analogy.   Curry's sell brand new branded items from worlds largest manufacturers - that you have full legal recourse for if they are not as described.   Ian's Soul packs consist of second hand fifty year old fragile pieces of plastic.  Do you take these things back for a refund if you pick them up at car boot sales or when you go 'digging' for records?  From what I have seen when he advertises these packs he even describes  them to say that some are rough and need cleaning.  They are priced at £1 each - I know exactly what I would get if bought them - I think a bit of common sense is needed here  and I think some people need to be a bit less disingenuous and naive.

I think we have all bought soul packs in the past and knew that for the few good items we might receive the majority would be fillers .

I do not condone selling thrashed records but for anybody to spend £1000 on a soul pack is extremely naïve , trying a smaller pack first might have made more sense when buying the unknown. 

  

 

 

 

 

 

[Johnnyf]

Me and a few friends chipped in for one , i had low expectations of Mr Levine and I was not disappointed  i must have thrown away 15 records that were unplayable due to their condition and  3 were  cracked , thankfully because I like everything from deep soul to disco I just about found enough in there not to be depressed . If I had bought it as a Northern collector I would have been furious as there was virtually no decent northern in there whatsoever . 

[Guest niknak]

7 hours ago, sheldonsoul said:

It's the first time I've quoted on this thread, my point of view is niknak bought a soulpack in good faith from mr levine, the said pack was very poor battered records etc, what's he supposed to do shut up and say nothing ! If you were to buy an electrical item from currys take it home and it doesn't work what do you do you take it back simple as. As for the extra rare records 15 ks worth  for a 1k deal he received as a softener and was sworn to secrecy well that just adds fuel to the fire for me and strengthens  niknaks case even more

I can't quite fathom why Levine thinks he's hard done by because i broke my word. Luckily for me, i have my FB messages between in Ian & myself. 

In these messages, he is standing firm that these are real. Here are some of the things he said-

"there is no way the Jeanie Tracy is a fake. Nor the John Wesley which we have verified" 

here's another classic Ian lie-

"last thing, is that lots of experts have looked at these 14 records & believe most if not all of them to be authentic"

Here's the best-

Plus Geoff Swallow bought his d.j box around and we compared several of theses records to the ones he had for years, like John Wesley, & we could see no visible difference at all, especially the run out grooves"

All these direct quotes of  statements he made to me totally contradict his statement above "only 30 copies of each made" & " only a bit of fun"

5 more people have come complaining of their packs being below par since this started.

I could go on forever with all the stuff i've found out about him  concerning these counterfeits & his soul packs. He's a class act, he really is.

[Kegsy]

3 minutes ago, niknak said:

I can't quite fathom why Levine thinks he's hard done by because i broke my word.

I think anybody would be pissed off with anybody who broke their word. 

[Guest niknak]

3 minutes ago, Kegsy said:

I think anybody would be pissed off with anybody who broke their word. 

That hardle excuses cheating people. I can't keep my word to what accounts to fraud. Should i have kept quite & let people get fooled & ripped off?

Edited January 27, 2016 by niknak

[Pete S]

1 minute ago, niknak said:

That hardle excuses cheating people. I can't keep my word to what accounts to fraud. Should i have kept quite & let people get fooled & ripped off?

No you're an absolute hero 

[Hermanthegerman]

54 minutes ago, niknak said:

That hardle excuses cheating people. I can't keep my word to what accounts to fraud. Should i have kept quite & let people get fooled & ripped off?

You were absolutely right to speak up

Edited January 27, 2016 by hermanthegerman
missunderstandable?

[Guest niknak]

19 minutes ago, niknak said:

I can't quite fathom why Levine thinks he's hard done by because i broke my word. Luckily for me, i have my FB messages between in Ian & myself. 

In these messages, he is standing firm that these are real. Here are some of the things he said-

"there is no way the Jeanie Tracy is a fake. Nor the John Wesley which we have verified" 

here's another classic Ian lie-

"last thing, is that lots of experts have looked at these 14 records & believe most if not all of them to be authentic"

Here's the best-

Plus Geoff Swallow bought his d.j box around and we compared several of theses records to the ones he had for years, like John Wesley, & we could see no visible difference at all, especially the run out grooves"

All these direct quotes of  statements he made to me totally contradict his statement above "only 30 copies of each made" & " only a bit of fun"

5 more people have come complaining of their packs being below par since this started.

I could go on forever with all the stuff i've found out about him  concerning these counterfeits & his soul packs. He's a class act, he really is.

Another thing i forgot to mention is, he sent me the 14 records in tatty sleeves. why would you put them in tatty sleeves if you know the are "just for fun" fakes

[Kegsy]

4 minutes ago, niknak said:

That hardle excuses cheating people. I can't keep my word to what accounts to fraud. Should i have kept quite & let people get fooled & ripped off?

I'm not excusing the cheating of anyone, if you were unhappy with the soul pack you should have insisted on a full or partial money refund. If however you entered into some sort of "secret/shady deal" in recompense, then you should have kept your word as requested. Even when the shady deal fell you should have kept this between yourself and Ian as this was the agreement. I'm quite sure the threat of bad publicity regarding the soul pack would have been sufficient to ensure you were compensated. I have no idea where these records came from, but I do know that they have been known about for quite some time.

[Steve G]

8 minutes ago, niknak said:

I can't quite fathom why Levine thinks he's hard done by because i broke my word.

I wouldn't be too upset at being on top of his hate list. I am not and understand we are just the latest in a very long list of people over the last 40+ years. My sin was identifying the Rita Graham as a pressing. I didn't even mention his name. Then Ted says there is a moody Magnetics which I confirmed I too had seen, and boom I am suddenly the "head of the soul police" and now "pursuing a personal vendetta". Utter cobblers. And all because we were trying to get to the bottom of these 20 titles and whether they'd been sold.

I really don't know what you can do about your records - if you really don't want some of them take them down the skip. I did this recently with some records I didn't want, and the guys at the dump were all over me like a rash. It made their afternoon to get a big box of old 7s to look through! As someone else said chalk it up to experience. 

 

[davidwapples]

Could you not just swap the sleeves for any of the ones on the 300 that didnt play. 14 new sleeves  cost about 70p

If anyone wants to send me free records i can supply my own sleeves

[Guest niknak]

2 minutes ago, Steve G said:

I wouldn't be too upset at being on top of his hate list. I am not and understand we are just the latest in a very long list of people over the last 40+ years. My sin was identifying the Rita Graham as a pressing. I didn't even mention his name. Then Ted says there is a moody Magnetics which I confirmed I too had seen, and boom I am suddenly the "head of the soul police" and now "pursuing a personal vendetta". Utter cobblers. And all because we were trying to get to the bottom of these 20 titles and whether they'd been sold.

I really don't know what you can do about your records - if you really don't want some of them take them down the skip. I did this recently with some records I didn't want, and the guys at the dump were all over me like a rash. It made their afternoon to get a big box of old 7s to look through! As someone else said chalk it up to experience. 

 

I have taken around 50 of the banjaxed records to a charity shop i volunteer in. We put them out at 5 for a quid. They sold to a person using them in a wall backdrop for a party, so they do have a use.

[Kegsy]

16 minutes ago, niknak said:

Another thing i forgot to mention is, he sent me the 14 records in tatty sleeves. why would you put them in tatty sleeves if you know the are "just for fun" fakes

So someone offers your 14 of the rarest records on the planet, as compensation for 300 soul pack records, he also tells you to keep your mouth shut, and you don't think for a minute that something a touch untoward is going on ? Is your birthday 26/01/2016. (Yesterday).

Edited January 27, 2016 by Kegsy

[Mace]

20 minutes ago, niknak said:

That hardle excuses cheating people. I can't keep my word to what accounts to fraud. Should i have kept quite & let people get fooled & ripped off?

As I said the other day, list your copies of the boots on ebay and get back what you can from your outlay that way....describe them for exactly what they are and at least that way you are giving the ebay market the heads up on what these really are......not everyone uses SS or FB forums so plenty of potential buyers who could still get burnt it the remaining copies filter away into other hands.....

[Guest niknak]

6 minutes ago, Kegsy said:

So someone offers your 14 of the rarest records on the planet, as compensation for 300 soul pack records, he also tells you to keep your mouth shut, and you don't think for a minute that something a touch untoward is going on ? Is your birthday 26/01/2016.

Your argument is rubbish!

[Andreas B]

12 minutes ago, davidwapples said:

Could you not just swap the sleeves for any of the ones on the 300 that didnt play. 14 new sleeves  cost about 70p

If anyone wants to send me free records i can supply my own sleeves

I don't think the argument was that they were in wrecked sleeves, anyone anguished over the condition of the plain sleeve their record arrives in needs to have their head checked. I think whats implied is that the sleeves being old/tattered were added to give these shady records more of a look of authenticity. 

[Jim G]

I have read the many posts on hear with great interest and for me the initial post subject was about the expectations about the quality of someone buying a pack of records for £1,000. The issue of the illegal copies of the rare records merits a separate topic of discussion on its own as it not directly about the actual expectations of the items first purchased (Imho).

Had the soul pack been full of records worth £50 plus a copy, then the second issue about the illegal copies might not have to come to light and the purchaser might have been on here saying how happy they were. 

Nonetheless, back to the 1000 records. Was the buyer being unreasonable in their expectations about the value of quality of the 1000 records, perhaps so. Was the seller being unfair with their description of said records, perhaps so. Is their any legal recourse, no there is not. This was a private transaction between two individuals and the buyer has no rights in this respect. The only recourse was to seek a partial or full refund from the seller as a gesture of goodwill. The seller is under no obligation to offer any such compromise. Result, a stand off and one unhappy buyer, whom unfortunately will have to chalk it up to experience however bitter a pill this is to swallow. The seller, despite all protestations has also been damaged. And, for the sake of clarity, this transaction was not lot like buying from a retail outlet or Ebay, it was a private sale.

In respect of the token gesture of illegal records sent to buyer as an appeasement, then had it just been any old 14 record records then the buyer would probably still be unsatisfied and their negotiations may have continued. The mistake made by the seller was to send the illegal copies and then try an enforce a caveat of secrecy on the seller. This was both unreasonable and naive which has resulted in the open verbal abuse posted in these forums. As stated earlier, the issue of source of the illegal records merits separate discussion and perhaps follow up by those who wish to pursue this.

The whole episode is a sad example of how things can go terribly wrong when expectations are not met and the subsequent actions taken by both parties can lead to the dire consequences.

Edited January 27, 2016 by jim g

[Kegsy]

22 minutes ago, niknak said:

Your argument is rubbish!

Did you seriously expect someone to send you £30k (your figure) worth of records as compensation for 300 £1 records ?. 

[Pete S]

22 minutes ago, Andreas B said:

I don't think the argument was that they were in wrecked sleeves, anyone anguished over the condition of the plain sleeve their record arrives in needs to have their head checked. I think whats implied is that the sleeves being old/tattered were added to give these shady records more of a look of authenticity. 

Apart from the fact they are spanking brand new unmarked records

[Guest niknak]

17 minutes ago, Kegsy said:

Did you seriously expect someone to send you £30k (your figure) worth of records as compensation for 300 £1 records ?. 

read the opening statement again. 

[Cover-up]

The thing I can't quite fathom out is how Mr Levine thought that swearing someone to secrecy was going to seal the deal. What is this, the Society of Free Soul Masons? If you promise to keep a secret upon receiving 14 singles worth a fortune, fair enough. Actually, you'd almost CERTAINLY keep it a secret! If you send someone 14 bootlegs, why would you think the other person would keep their side of the bargain? The deal is null and void. Utterly ludicrous...

The whole thing is a very sorry saga, perhaps the clue was that he was clearing out his dregs before his next shipment arrived. I'm sure a simple "sorry you're not happy with 300 of the records, how about I refund you £300 or send you 300 new titles when the next batch arrive from Detroit" would have saved endless stress and ballache...

Edited January 27, 2016 by cover-up

[Sheldonsoul]

5 hours ago, spook said:

Actually you can tell everybody about it on the internet, by putting in a bad review against the item you have purchased on Curry's website against the product you have purchased.

 

6 hours ago, Pete S said:

If you buy and electrical item from Currys and it doesn't work, you take it back - and then you go on the internet and tell everyone about it.

I think an awful lot of people would give an online review about a bad product proberbly you included because I know I would, you seem determined to fight tooth and nail to protect mr Levines corner from all angles, why I don't know ?

[Pete S]

9 minutes ago, sheldonsoul said:

 

I think an awful lot of people would give an online review about a bad product proberbly you included because I know I would, you seem determined to fight tooth and nail to protect mr Levines corner from all angles, why I don't know ?

 

12 minutes ago, cover-up said:

The thing I can't quite fathom out is how Mr Levine thought that swearing someone to secrecy was going to seal the deal. What is this, the Society of Free Soul Masons? If you promise to keep a secret upon receiving 14 singles worth a fortune, fair enough. Actually, you'd almost CERTAINLY keep it a secret! If you send someone 14 bootlegs, why would you think the other person would keep their side of the bargain? The deal is null and void. Utterly ludicrous...

The whole thing is a very sorry saga, perhaps the clue was that he was clearing out his dregs before his next shipment arrived. I'm sure a simple "sorry you're not happy with 300 of the records, how about I refund you £300 or send you 300 new titles when the next batch arrive from Detroit" would have saved endless stress and ballache...

He offered him 300 60's only titles from the next batch which were refused, every offer he made was refused.

[Paul Bear]

it stinks

[davidwapples]

It has been said that you were offered 300 different 60s records for the damaged ones from the next incoming shipment to replace the ones that would not play properly that are usually sold for £3 not the £1 plus you were given 50 records and the set of bootlegs so that is 64 records on top of what you paid for.

You could have not said anything and sold the bootlegs online to cover a large percentage of your outlay if you were not happy , If you paid via paypal you could have contacted them to see about getting your money back.

I will happily take the 14 new records from you in exchange for 14 others , all originals and not ones from my soul pack and will not sell them on or play them out djing , then you wont have to look at them