Dean Posted December 20, 2015 Posted December 20, 2015 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Northern-Soul-Willie-Hutch-Love-Runs-Out-/161921009334?hash=item25b33e86b6:g:WmMAAOSw~otWcqQ6 Listed as a 70s Reissue, I'm used to reissue being shorthand for Bootleg but was this booted in the 70s? I recall the abc Willie Hutch / Bobby Hutton 70s release but don't recall a Dunhill Boot at the time? Just curious alongside my usual disgruntled grumpyness.
Rich B Posted December 20, 2015 Posted December 20, 2015 I don't recall a 70's boot - and it's odd that they don't mention the other side?
kevinsoulman Posted December 20, 2015 Posted December 20, 2015 ebay should change it's name to bootbay kev 1
Russoul1 Posted December 20, 2015 Posted December 20, 2015 see the 8 x 45s he is selling, spinning at a local soul night near you...... 2
Mal C Posted December 20, 2015 Posted December 20, 2015 saw this chaps boots the other day, they all say the same... ie say they are all from the seventies,, my god we have come to a point where folk have to lie about bootlegs? 2
Mellorful Posted December 20, 2015 Posted December 20, 2015 A mate of mine was preparing for a session behind the decks, lifted his original Gwen Owens as the opener and the DJ playing at the time pulled a Gwen Owen bootleg out of his box and played it.... A brief candid exchange ensued and my mate pointed out to the other DJ that he was playing boots that he had never seen before... Perhaps this is the source of these obscure bootlegs. Bootlegs are here to stay, that's the reality (no matter how much I wish it wasn't); but I do wish they wouldn't describe a bootleg as a reissue, the latter pays the copyright holder and artist (tax paid) the former is an unauthorised copy. If bootlegs were described as an unofficial release then it might not attract as much criticism. Perhaps this should be a Xmas SS challenge - guess the total for the eight records or each individual record 1
aiden Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 All I see on Evilbay is boots with a photo copy of they original 45's people are paying silly money for the 45.
Popular Post Dean Posted December 21, 2015 Author Popular Post Posted December 21, 2015 I instinctively detest this practice, but what also concerns me is why pay £36+ (3 days to go) when there are several abc reissue copies for £5-£8 available on buy it now, unless the intent is duplicitous, to fool someone into thinking you have a collection when you don't. You can't convince yourself it's the real thing, no matter how poor the lighting near your home deck is. If you want to own the tune on record and can't justify the price tag of the original (I don't have one by the way and probably outside of my justification) why pay more for something you know is just as fakey, if not more so, than the abc copy. The more you try to build a reputation on these boots the further there is to fall when found out, and if you are of the opinion that originals are not important then why not the abc copy? I hope it breaks in the post. 6
Guest johnny hart Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 Agreed its the awful creepy crawly, slimy attempts at delusion; Reissue ,re;press,test press, 2nd issue,etc etc .Discogs try hard to eradicate this practice eg They have 5 "Love Runs Out " on Stephanye ,stp-340, from £5 each. Notes read; Unofficial release, this is a " Cover up " using a false artist name and credits. Over to you ebay. LOL Happy Holliday ,to all Soul Source Staff and members! Johnny.
Mick Holdsworth Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 "Love Runs Out" was booted in the seventies and credited to James Conwell Jr. on Patches (Soussan boot from about '76). The previous Stephanye boot a couple of years earlier was only "The Duck" both sides credited to Richard Temple (Let's Do The Duck). This was sped up, whereas the Patches had both "Love Runs Out" and "The Duck" at the right speed. The Patches boots seem to be quite scarce, even by the end of that decade there wern't many who even remembered them. The ebay listing is clearly not is one of these as it has Bobby Hutton on the flip. As it has a large middle, it's probably the recent boot of the 70's ABC legal reissue, as he can buy these for peanuts. Cheers Mick 1
Guest johnny hart Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 Correct mick , the boot cited in Discogs is the Stephanye Double sided " lets Do the Duck"= Richard temple from A Fiver a piece ,but it does appear onthe Willie Hutch "Love" posting /page.
Rich B Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 1 hour ago, Mick Holdsworth said: "Love Runs Out" was booted in the seventies and credited to James Conwell Jr. on Patches (Soussan boot from about '76). I presume that copy was somewhere on the same list that the Salvadors, George Blackwells etc Simon did? I must confess I was unaware of it.
Soulboyrecords Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 Look at his sold listings...it is criminal. Thousands of ££££ for what is likely modern boots with photo copied labels Northern Soul ... Bob n Fred ....I'll be on my way c/w. Big Mack $147.43 Buy It Now +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-19 08:11 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... Joanne Summers .... Don't Pity Me $104.24 21 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-18 04:41 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... Utopias .... Girls are Against Me $59.57 4 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-18 04:37 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... Ivories .... Please Stay $79.67 22 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-18 04:31 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... Terry Callier .... Ordinary Joe $107.22 30 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-18 04:27 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... Kelly Garrett .... Loves the Only Answer c/w $74.46 21 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-18 04:23 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... Morris Chestnut .... Too Darn Soulfull c/w You Don't Love Me $65.52 17 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-18 04:18 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... Cashmeres ....Showstopper c/w. Don't let the Door HEM $104.24 Buy It Now Free international shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-13 12:28 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... TanGeers .. Let my Heart and Soul be Free C/w. What's .. Okeh $89.35 13 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-11 06:54 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... Youngblood Smith .... You Can Split .... Verve $44.68 11 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-11 06:47 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... Del Larks .... Job Opening Part 1 c/w. Job Opening Part 2 $59.57 6 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-11 06:44 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... Bob n Fred ....I'll be on my way c/w. Big Mack $150.41 25 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-11 06:40 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... Cashmeres ....Showstopper c/w. Don't let the Door HEM $117.65 14 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-11 04:23 From United Kingdom Northern Soul .... Herb Ward .... Strange Change ..... Argo $44.68 9 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-11 04:14 From United Kingdom Northern Soul .... Jimmy Mack .... My World is on Fire c/w Go On .... Palmer
Russoul1 Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) 21 minutes ago, SoulBoyRecords said: money for old rope or in this case old boots!! total disgrace makes you wonder why we bother buying original 45s...... oh yeh to make money off our labels..... Look at his sold listings...it is criminal. Thousands of ££££ for what is likely modern boots with photo copied labels Northern Soul ... Bob n Fred ....I'll be on my way c/w. Big Mack $147.43 Buy It Now +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-19 08:11 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... Joanne Summers .... Don't Pity Me $104.24 21 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-18 04:41 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... Utopias .... Girls are Against Me $59.57 4 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-18 04:37 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... Ivories .... Please Stay $79.67 22 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-18 04:31 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... Terry Callier .... Ordinary Joe $107.22 30 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-18 04:27 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... Kelly Garrett .... Loves the Only Answer c/w $74.46 21 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-18 04:23 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... Morris Chestnut .... Too Darn Soulfull c/w You Don't Love Me $65.52 17 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-18 04:18 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... Cashmeres ....Showstopper c/w. Don't let the Door HEM $104.24 Buy It Now Free international shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-13 12:28 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... TanGeers .. Let my Heart and Soul be Free C/w. What's .. Okeh $89.35 13 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-11 06:54 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... Youngblood Smith .... You Can Split .... Verve $44.68 11 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-11 06:47 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... Del Larks .... Job Opening Part 1 c/w. Job Opening Part 2 $59.57 6 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-11 06:44 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... Bob n Fred ....I'll be on my way c/w. Big Mack $150.41 25 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-11 06:40 From United Kingdom Northern Soul ... Cashmeres ....Showstopper c/w. Don't let the Door HEM $117.65 14 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-11 04:23 From United Kingdom Northern Soul .... Herb Ward .... Strange Change ..... Argo $44.68 9 bids +$3.72 shipping View similar active itemsSell one like this Dec-11 04:14 From United Kingdom Northern Soul .... Jimmy Mack .... My World is on Fire c/w Go On .... Palmer Edited December 21, 2015 by russoul1
Shinehead Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 Who are the idiots paying these prices for these records ?
Steve L Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 52 minutes ago, shinehead said: Who are the idiots paying these prices for these records ? We'll never know - no one ever admits to it on these threads
Soulboyrecords Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Steve L said: We'll never know - no one ever admits to it on these threads How much is it folks pretending they have the real deal vs deceit on the part of sellers ? Edited December 21, 2015 by SoulBoyRecords
Milliontearsoul Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 (edited) .....what the fake ??????? Edited December 21, 2015 by milliontearsoul
Mellorful Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 Wow; having seen all those bootlegs sold with copied labels and the prices paid. JM and TB may get the best prices for originals but this seller gets the top prices for bootlegs. This seller looks like he will be having a very Merry Christmas.... ho ho ho
Mick Holdsworth Posted December 22, 2015 Posted December 22, 2015 20 hours ago, Rich B said: I presume that copy was somewhere on the same list that the Salvadors, George Blackwells etc Simon did? I must confess I was unaware of it. Just found a scan, plus a list from SS advertising it ... This is a scan, fould it on popsike and this is a list from July 76 (posted it a while back, just copied it over to this thread) Although I never marked it on the list at the time, I ordered a few, but not James Conwell. However I did get sent one anyway, probably in place of the Rubies which never existed. I have no idea what happened to that first copy back in the 70's, but I remember getting one a few years back, and sold it immediately. Never seen another since. As I said before, probably quite rare. Cheers Mick
Mach Posted December 22, 2015 Posted December 22, 2015 Never knew Eddie Billups ever got booted ?, could imagine someone getting easily duped in a year a or two going thru a box at a niter and seeing that.
Sjclement Posted December 22, 2015 Posted December 22, 2015 (edited) Kenni Smith on Goldspot was it known on that imprint in '76 ? CC's copy as reviewed by Dave Godin in B&S was on G.A.R. Edited December 22, 2015 by sjclement
Bo Diddley Posted December 22, 2015 Posted December 22, 2015 1 hour ago, Mach said: Never knew Eddie Billups ever got booted ?, could imagine someone getting easily duped in a year a or two going thru a box at a niter and seeing that. Do you mean Eddie Daniels? 2 hours ago, Mick Holdsworth said: Just found a scan, plus a list from SS advertising it ... This is a scan, fould it on popsike and this is a list from July 76 (posted it a while back, just copied it over to this thread) Although I never marked it on the list at the time, I ordered a few, but not James Conwell. However I did get sent one anyway, probably in place of the Rubies which never existed. I have no idea what happened to that first copy back in the 70's, but I remember getting one a few years back, and sold it immediately. Never seen another since. As I said before, probably quite rare. Cheers Mick Mick - Were ALL of the records on the list Bootlegs/Reissues?
Mick Holdsworth Posted December 22, 2015 Posted December 22, 2015 1 hour ago, bo diddley said: Mick - Were ALL of the records on the list Bootlegs/Reissues? Yes, I think so Bod, Certainly thing like the Jades on Fee and GTO's / Skullsnaps, and loads of others you see the boots around today. You could say the new vocals to the classic instrumentals (Del Satins / Shirley Matthews / Charades etc.) were just new releases, although the B sides were all boots of the instrumentals. I've never seen an Eddie Daniels boot - did they actiually exist, or was it made up, like the Rubies (I have another list from about the same time listing the new Cigarette Ashes vocal by "Judy Church" - Again, never happened). Just noticed "These Heartaches" was going to be done as Sharon Scott, but was done as Dena Barnes.
Bo Diddley Posted December 22, 2015 Posted December 22, 2015 2 hours ago, Mick Holdsworth said: Yes, I think so Bod, Certainly thing like the Jades on Fee and GTO's / Skullsnaps, and loads of others you see the boots around today. You could say the new vocals to the classic instrumentals (Del Satins / Shirley Matthews / Charades etc.) were just new releases, although the B sides were all boots of the instrumentals. I've never seen an Eddie Daniels boot - did they actiually exist, or was it made up, like the Rubies (I have another list from about the same time listing the new Cigarette Ashes vocal by "Judy Church" - Again, never happened). Just noticed "These Heartaches" was going to be done as Sharon Scott, but was done as Dena Barnes. Mick, I've seen some speculation previously, but do you think the Kenny Smith/Goldspot was an SS Special. It sounds a little less polished than the GAR release which is why I assumed it was a legit "local" release prior to GAR. A local friend and DJ bought a copy of Eddie Daniels for a significant amount from a DJ/Promoter/Dealer in the last 2 years. I wouldn't know if there were reissues of this or how to tell the difference.
Mach Posted December 22, 2015 Posted December 22, 2015 4 hours ago, bo diddley said: Do you mean Eddie Daniels? No mate. That Eddie Billups on Peachtree..it must be a photo copied label mash-up
Bo Diddley Posted December 22, 2015 Posted December 22, 2015 Just now, Mach said: Sorry, I got a bit side tracked with the SS list Mick posted!
Guest chorleybloke Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 Makes my blood boil this. Does anybody know if eBay has ever attempted to do anything about it or do they just turn a blind eye? Got a bit of time on my hands so I might see if I can rattle somebody's cage in the eBay management hierarchy. Also, is this practice unique to NS or are they at it on the Rockabilly/R&R/Elvis/etc scenes too? Cheers..........Pete
Richard Free Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 I remember that list from 1976 I had just started work that year and I was planning how to spend my wages .£16 per week .had to give my mum £8 so not much left over .found out from guys at Wigan it was all boots anyway .it was big news in the record bar . re the boots on eBay it is fraud and deception and the perpetrators need outing .They are trading on some peoples naivety.Sick of other eBay listings not even mentioning that record is a re issue and have been coming across the same issues on discogs especially from Belgian sellers . Buyers beware
Bo Diddley Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 I had an weird experience while checking eBay last night. I saw this listing.... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161933107992?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT Why was it weird? Well I have the ORIGINAL that the copy label is taken from!! It made me check my copy and it does have the "bell sound" stamp. I bought mine some time last year from a member on here who lives in Scotland. The seller of the eBay copy and similar records seems to live in Yorkshire. Mine was bought by a private sale and as far as I'm aware, no scan was posted. I've no problem with the seller who was an honest and nice guy to deal with and seems to have a great collection, some of which he has been selling. The only problem may be that if I were to try and sell mine, someone might check popsike and see the eBay item and assume they are the same.
Dean Posted January 4, 2016 Author Posted January 4, 2016 2 hours ago, bo diddley said: I had an weird experience while checking eBay last night. I saw this listing.... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161933107992?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT Why was it weird? Well I have the ORIGINAL that the copy label is taken from!! It made me check my copy and it does have the "bell sound" stamp. I bought mine some time last year from a member on here who lives in Scotland. The seller of the eBay copy and similar records seems to live in Yorkshire. Mine was bought by a private sale and as far as I'm aware, no scan was posted. I've no problem with the seller who was an honest and nice guy to deal with and seems to have a great collection, some of which he has been selling. The only problem may be that if I were to try and sell mine, someone might check popsike and see the eBay item and assume they are the same. That's beyond annoying. If the faker is prepared to do this once then you may well see repeat copies where the label markings become shorthand for bootleg. I also saw this on the net from a couple of years ago with the same label markings; https://www.rootsvinylguide.com/ebay_items/jay-traynor-up-and-over--2 Looking at the other boots on offer I see the Larry Clinton has a Chips sticker on https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Northern-Soul-Larry-Clinton-Shes-Wanted-/161933079600?hash=item25b3f6b430:g:Rc0AAOSwSdZWg~Cs . I wonder if this is a sticker or a photo of the sticker on the orig label? I know people on her mock the notion of 'Soul Police' (not that they exist) but I'd be happy for the Soul Police to have power of arrest. 1
Bo Diddley Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 3 minutes ago, Dean said: That's beyond annoying. If the faker is prepared to do this once then you may well see repeat copies where the label markings become shorthand for bootleg. I also saw this on the net from a couple of years ago with the same label markings; https://www.rootsvinylguide.com/ebay_items/jay-traynor-up-and-over--2 Looking at the other boots on offer I see the Larry Clinton has a Chips sticker on https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Northern-Soul-Larry-Clinton-Shes-Wanted-/161933079600?hash=item25b3f6b430:g:Rc0AAOSwSdZWg~Cs . I wonder if this is a sticker or a photo of the sticker on the orig label? I know people on her mock the notion of 'Soul Police' (not that they exist) but I'd be happy for the Soul Police to have power of arrest. The plot thickens!!! So either multiple copies (likely) or the buyer in the first link is re-selling the one bought in 2014 (less likely as the seller seems to have loads of 'em)
Soulboyrecords Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 On 12/21/2015 at 19:45, Steve L said: We'll never know - no one ever admits to it on these threads I'm sure that CHIPS sticker is just part of the copying process in this bootleg operation. If you check the seller's past sales he's doing around £1500 per month. That's quite a bit of wonga for boots with photo copied labels. I'm assuming that is what these are ? New boots, new labels. If so criminal morally and legally
Pete S Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 Come on folks, these aren't proper bootlegs, they are previous reissues with photocopy labels stuck on them, if people can't see through this, even though the bloke tells you what they are, then more fool them. The James Conwell Jr boot is one of the rarest of the lot...
Guest Juniorsoul Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 24 minutes ago, Pete S said: Come on folks, these aren't proper bootlegs, they are previous reissues with photocopy labels stuck on them, if people can't see through this, even though the bloke tells you what they are, then more fool them. The James Conwell Jr boot is one of the rarest of the lot... Yeah. What he seems to be doing is letting the 45 get to a price before posting in the description that it's a 70's RE. All a bit naughty.
Peter Richer Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 29 minutes ago, Pete S said: Come on folks, these aren't proper bootlegs, they are previous reissues with photocopy labels stuck on them, if people can't see through this, even though the bloke tells you what they are, then more fool them. The James Conwell Jr boot is one of the rarest of the lot... Yes, exactly. The guy isn't a bootlegger (as far as we can tell), he is 'customizing' previously bootlegged records which already exist. He could - and probably would - argue that any premium he receives for these records is a reward for the customizing effort he has put into the re-labelling. They are still listed as non-originals. I would guess that some of the buyers who are paying fairly hefty prices for them may be the ones that might try to pass them off fraudulently in the future, for a sizeable profit. And that is where the problem will be.
Pete S Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 17 minutes ago, Juniorsoul said: Yeah. What he seems to be doing is letting the 45 get to a price before posting in the description that it's a 70's RE. All a bit naughty. Really? That's deception.
Steve L Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 49 minutes ago, Peter Richer said: I would guess that some of the buyers who are paying fairly hefty prices for them may be the ones that might try to pass them off fraudulently in the future, for a sizeable profit. And that is where the problem will be. I agree, thats what you can see happening and the main problem with all this
Soulboyrecords Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Steve L said: I agree, thats what you can see happening and the main problem with all this Lots of folks have said they may talk to EBAY - is anyone actually doing that ? Is it illegal to take a 2nd issue or even a bootleg that someone else made and to photo copy a label and stick it on if that is what you tell buyers you are doing ? Edited January 4, 2016 by SoulBoyRecords
Guest Juniorsoul Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 54 minutes ago, Pete S said: Really? That's deception. Yeah, I think it was the Larry Clinton promo, I saw it and there was nothing in the description, looked a few hours later and he'd filled in that spiel about a 1970's RE.
Peter Richer Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 (edited) 48 minutes ago, SoulBoyRecords said: Lots of folks have said they may talk to EBAY - is anyone actually doing that ? Is it illegal to take a 2nd issue or even a bootleg that someone else made and to photo copy a label and stick it on if that is what you tell buyers you are doing ? 1) What would they say? 'Somebody is selling something which may or may not be a bootleg, as do lots of other people with impunity, but I personally don't like this one because they've re-worked it - although they've still said it isn't the genuine article.' Or perhaps (and this would actually be a justifiable thing to do): 'Please stop people selling any and all unlicensed items, including soul records; regardless of whether they call them re-issues, second issues, reproductions or any other similar term, and regardless as to whether they are second hand or not.' But then you get into the issue of how to monitor it, and who should do it; and who should arbitrate if it is disputed. Probably just leave it to the legal owners of a copyrighted item to challenge if they wish; after all, it is those people who were 'wronged' in the first place. 2) Of course not - there is no deception, so nothing illegal. Might be worth keeping an eye on the people who bought them though. Edited January 4, 2016 by Peter Richer
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