My cup runneth over- Rita Graham on 45

[Hammersoul]

A mate who`s started collecting again found the above on Trc on a 45. Now i was under the impression it was lp only. Spoke to a few collectors and they think the same. Is it  legit or a repress/ Boot?I can try and add a scan if poss. The run out is Trc 757 at 5 o`clock.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Hammersoul

[Mal C]

I'm with you, always an lp track, but you never know. Your mate, where did he get it from? I asssume he can spot an original 45? I know the run out groove tells, but most collectors can tell when they get something in the hand simply from the press... If it's a lookalike, most I've looked at the label gives them away immediately, then the vinyl...

mal

[Hammersoul]

He never said where he found it(collectors rules lol) .he didn`t know the track,it came with a big pile of 45`s. It looks real to me but don`t know how to post up a scan. i can send someone the photo if they know how?

[Tsu Tomatoes]

Seems to be a legit 45 Wayne and confirmed by Lars here: https://www.soul-source.co.uk/forums/topic/341264-rita-graham/#comment-2239513

Nice find for your mate. Do I know him?

 

[Hammersoul]

Fair play to him if it`s real. It`s same scan as the one shown in picture of the other thread Neil.

 

No he`s an old mod mate of mine from Cheshunt,Herts. Better tell him the good news .

 

So what price do we put on this?

[Tsu Tomatoes]

1 hour ago, Hammersoul said:

 

 

So what price do we put on this?

I'll give him a tenner! I might stretch to £11 if it's Mint. If I was him, I'd move it on at a big mark up. No one will believe him that it's legit anyhow. My Jamaican Colombia copy of "Universal Love - It's you girl" sat in my sales box for ages, because everyone thought it was moody. 

[hullsoul]

Well thank you boys? If LP only tracks ever crop up in conversation this is one of the first I smugly throw in the ring..........I'll have to get a new one 

Would be interested in what it would go for if it was sold? Won't be cheap will it?Been well known & loved by many for ages & between two threads on here only two copies mentioned,so doesn't sound as if there's loads about which usually equals a descent price???

Is TRC a US only label?If not could be issued somewhere else?

Great find.

Cheers

Martyn

PS Didn't RS cover it up as Baby Washington or did I dream that???

 

[Dobber]

i assume its the same mix? same song,not a misprint,or a completely different version?

[Micksmix]

3 hours ago, hullsoul said:

Well thank you boys? If LP only tracks ever crop up in conversation this is one of the first I smugly throw in the ring..........I'll have to get a new one 

Would be interested in what it would go for if it was sold? Won't be cheap will it?Been well known & loved by many for ages & between two threads on here only two copies mentioned,so doesn't sound as if there's loads about which usually equals a descent price???

Is TRC a US only label?If not could be issued somewhere else?

Great find.

Cheers

Martyn

PS Didn't RS cover it up as Baby Washington or did I dream that???

 

Hi Martyn

I think Dean had it c/u at Parkers as Jean Washington

[hullsoul]

12 minutes ago, micksmix said:

Hi Martyn

I think Dean had it c/u at Parkers as Jean Washington

Hey Up Mick

Half right,that's good by my standards

Cheers

Martyn

[Micksmix]

haha well done mate!!!

[Peter Richer]

On 12 December 2015 at 15:23, Hammersoul said:

A mate who`s started collecting again found the above on Trc on a 45. Now i was under the impression it was lp only. Spoke to a few collectors and they think the same. Is it  legit or a repress/ Boot?I can try and add a scan if poss. The run out is Trc 757 at 5 o`clock.

 

Hi. Do you know what the Tangerine record number is on the label? I'm assuming it can't be 757 as they go from the 900s to the 1000s.

 

On the Soulful Kinda Music label listing I can't see any missing numbers; and if this track is from 1969 it ought to be numbered around the 990s. Could it be some later release on a reactivated label?

 

[Chalky]

11 minutes ago, Peter Richer said:

 

Hi. Do you know what the Tangerine record number is on the label? I'm assuming it can't be 757 as they go from the 900s to the 1000s.

 

On the Soulful Kinda Music label listing I can't see any missing numbers; and if this track is from 1969 it ought to be numbered around the 990s. Could it be some later release on a reactivated label?

 

On the previous  scan the 767 was under the table number (1032).

Looking at other releases The Visitors is 1004 with TRC 454 under the label number.  All other releases I can see are the same.

I would imagine the lower number is a mastering or file number rather than label or release number.

The previous scans look legit and Lars knew of another copy so it would appear this isn't a one off. 

 

Edited December 13, 2015 by chalky

[Chalky]

Scan from the previous topic.....

[Peter Richer]

21 minutes ago, chalky said:

On the previous  scan the 767 was under the table number (1032).

Looking at other releases The Visitors is 1004 with TRC 454 under the label number.  All other releases I can see are the same.

I would imagine the lower number is a mastering or file number rather than label or release number.

The previous scans look legit and Lars knew of another copy so it would appear this isn't a one off. 

 

Thanks Chalky - I hadn't looked at the other thread.

It certainly looks pretty good. Are the matrix markings similar to the previous release by the Raeletts on number 1031, does anybody know?

 

Edited December 13, 2015 by Peter Richer

[John Benson]

It'll probably get 'discovered' a few more times yet - before it's finally a known of 45 

Hopefully most of us on here will have turned one up by them eh.... or maybe not 

Yes, it's a lovely find indeed!

[Benji]

4 hours ago, chalky said:

Scan from the previous topic.....

 

I don't want to spread any false rumours but the fonst of title and artist don't look right to me. I remember the previous thread and remember the first time I saw the scan. "Recent press, computer designed label" I thought immediately.

[hullsoul]

Benji

I'm not so sure,doesn't seem much between the fonts to me?

If anything the Rita label does look very new with no ware or loss of colour?

Cheers

Martyn

[Swaggy]

There is no TRC 1032 on record

[Tlscapital]

13 hours ago, hullsoul said:

Benji

I'm not so sure,doesn't seem much between the fonts to me?

If anything the Rita label does look very new with no ware or loss of colour?

Cheers

Martyn

You outdid me. Was about to do exactly that. And I agree, looks too neat ! Plus the Rita has that typical "circular silky brush" effect on the label that you only see on contemporary presses. Still the title and artist credits typos/fonts are close but not the same...

Edited December 14, 2015 by tlscapital

[Chalky]

But the fonts on the Raelettes look different as well, well the "A"and the "E" do to me but then again I don't have my glasses on and I'm on the ipad not a desktop.  The label on Rita does look a bit fresh but means little really.  The matrix is in the same place as a Tangerine release I looked at yesterday.  If it is a scam then then someone gone to a lot of trouble if it is vinyl.  Would need to see it in the flesh before making any claims either way.

[Louis]

Interesting thread this.  Now I'm sure I bought the album off a Mr. Pearson of Bratford, a few years ago.  He stated at the time that it was only available on the album.

 

Are you know calling Derek a cad and a bounder???

[Chalky]

17 minutes ago, Louis said:

Interesting thread this.  Now I'm sure I bought the album off a Mr. Pearson of Bratford, a few years ago.  He stated at the time that it was only available on the album.

 

Are you know calling Derek a cad and a bounder???

Think everyone considered it Lp only until these recent finds.  Still some convincing needed too by the looks of it.

[Dave Pinch]

It looks fine to me but the vinyl will reveal all

[Steve G]

I am afraid it looks moody to me. The font is different. I am happy to have a closer look at the vinyl if the record is in Cheshunt Wayne.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Steve G

[Docfish]

As I said in another thread, I've seen a copy in the flesh. It came with a bulk buy from the states and was in rather trashed condition. It looked abolutely kosher to me.

Rita Graham is still alive and performing, I had her contact details, but lost them in a computer crash. Maybe someone should ask her to confirm, should be easy to track her down. She recorded two 45s for Prodigal as well, but they are rather Jazz then soul.

Edited December 14, 2015 by docfish

[Mike Lofthouse]

1 hour ago, Steve G said:

I am afraid it looks moody to me. The font is different. I am happy to have a closer look at the vinyl if the record is in Cheshunt Wayne.

I'm sure you would Steve!!!  

[Swaggy]

Anybody thought what the B side is

[hullsoul]

44 minutes ago, swaggy said:

Anybody thought what the B side is

Here you go Wag off the other thread about this...............

[John Reed]

I would love to believe that it’s a genuine vintage pressing, but there are a few things don’t stack up for me.

With no singles released at the time of the LP, why wait 4 years to release a solitary single. 

After touring with the Raelets, she left Ray Charles and toured with the Harry James Orchestra and then worked with Mike Post releasing singles on Bell in early 70’s as herself and Rye and Rita Jean.  Surely she would have had commitments, would she have done any promotion for her new Tangerine single?

The Tangerine releases I have from 1972 onwards (both issues and demos) have the year of release on the label, this one doesn’t.  Also from 72 onwards Tangerine demos were quite prolific, but there no demo for this release.

[Chalky]

Have to agree that there are more questions than answers but unless someone can have a look at the record, then the doubts will remain. 

[Steve G]

I've offered Chalky…..the record is in my town. 

Good point about the release year not being on it John Reed, and the lack of demos, which would have been first for radio plays. 

Edited December 14, 2015 by Steve G

[Mike Lofthouse]

Regardless of whether the copy that has been scanned and featured here,  Docfish (is that Lars ?) has said on this thread and the previous one that he has seen a copy 'in the flesh' and even described the condition.   It seems quite an elaborate  scam to produce a 'perfect' copy that turns up here then 'plant' a battered copy in a job lot from the States.   But why bother ? as others have pointed out its been played out of the album for years - its not like it is a previously unreleased unknown track is it?

[Steve G]

Just for interest sake here is the cool "bag" for 1031 issue copies (The Raelettes) which is styrene. 45Cat only lists this as a WD, but there is an issue here.  Interestingly whilst most of my higher numbers are styrene, 1030 (Neal Kimble) is vinyl. 

Edited December 14, 2015 by Steve G

[Dave Pinch]

When was the lp issued... sold mine a couple of yrs ago

[Chalky]

5 minutes ago, dave pinch said:

When was the lp issued... sold mine a couple of yrs ago

1969

[Rbman]

On 14 December 2015 at 12:34, docfish said:

As I said in another thread, I've seen a copy in the flesh. It came with a bulk buy from the states and was in rather trashed condition. It looked abolutely kosher to me.

Rita Graham is still alive and performing, I had her contact details, but lost them in a computer crash. Maybe someone should ask her to confirm, should be easy to track her down. She recorded two 45s for Prodigal as well, but they are rather Jazz then soul.

I have just received this reply from RG .....

[John Benson]

As I said on the earlier thread about this, back in September - I do find it odd that someone would go to the trouble of pressing this up on a 45. It's never been popular enough to warrant it in my opinion.

But it isn't unheard of for singles to be taken from LPs 4 years or so after the album came out,so you never know.

Plus as I also mentioned, by the time this record is suspected to have been released - 1973, Ray Charles had started his own label 'Crossover' so you may think it would have got released on that. Unless ABC had the rights to it and not Ray.

Of course this is all speculation until we get confirmation from someone else who can verify that copies do really exist!

 

By the way Steve G, I got that same 'picture' bag with an unplayed copy of Neal Kimble 

[Rbman]

8 minutes ago, John Benson said:

.....

Plus as I also mentioned, by the time this record is suspected to have been released - 1973, Ray Charles had started his own label 'Crossover' so you may think it would have got released on that. Unless ABC had the rights to it and not Ray.

....

Ray Charles was TRC .....Tangerine Record Company.....I have asked RG if she had signed away all her rights in the record.  

[Chalky]

2 minutes ago, Rbman said:

Ray Charles was TRC .....Tangerine Record Company.....I have asked RG if she had signed away all her rights in the record.  

She wouldn't have any rights other than artist royalties via sales which I would imagine didn't cover studio time and other costs unless she wrote some of the LP tracks. I would imagine the label owned the rights to the music?

[Rbman]

I've dug through loads of Billboards from 1973 and although I've found reference to the documented Raelettes release i could find nothing on TRC 1032.

[Steve G]

Correct RBMan, there were adverts etc and a review for The Raelettes 1031 in BB, and nothing at all about 1032. But that is not definitive of anything as plenty of stuff never got into Billboard. 

PS: john Benson my Neil Kimble is in a "Ray Charles presents"….bag…ha ha.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Steve G

[Mark B]

Surely if it was a boot there would be more out there ?

[Sunnysoul]

Equally so if it is was a stock copy issue.

[Steve G]

Until I've seen the record (which I hopefully will soon) I don't want to keep commenting on bootleg versus original. 

However it is quite possible to have an issue that is dead rare if the copies never got out of the factory, plenty of examples of that where an engineer or A&R man took a couple of copies but there are no others out there.

Equally we've long speculated about bootlegging 300 copies, smashing or holding back 295 and selling the other 5 for a lot of money (much more than the cost of pressing 300).

So we can speculate all we want, but until seen the vinyl, it is just that, speculation and guesswork. Lars also makes an interesting point too about having seen the trashed copy.

Merry Xmas all….

[Rbman]

Just to add to the TRC release numbers.....what about this one! 

[Mike Lofthouse]

3 hours ago, Steve G said:

 

However it is quite possible to have an issue that is dead rare if the copies never got out of the factory, plenty of examples of that where an engineer or A&R man took a couple of copies but there are no others out there.

 

I think the Sam Moore on Atlantic is a good example of that - heralded as a 'lost' album track on CD release and on 45 too, then 10 or more years later turns up.  Not many about - Ian levine insisting his was the only copy - but we know there was at least two different pressings in in different parts of the US .  Someone did a good job keeping those under wraps.

 

[purist]

It's not something that was made for one of these multitude of box sets that have flourished lately? Maybe one that didn't get finished? The reason for thinking this is that some of the ones I've seen look quite convincingly 60's original in the photos
btw anyone know if the Revilot box set of 45's is ever going to come to the market?

[Chalky]

Unless you have full access to a labels archive material then you shouldn't necessary believe everything you read or in this case don't read.

every site has TRC 1026 listed with the instrumental as the flip

1026 - Tommy Payton - I'll Give You A Ride / I’ll Give You A Ride (inst)

[Chalky]

5 hours ago, Rbman said:

Just to add to the TRC release numbers.....what about this one! 

Presume that is the flip as it isn't listed on most discog sites