When Does A Record Become An Oldie??

[hullsoul]

First I'll get my apologies in?..........Mike feel free to move this if I'm in the wrong forum?Sorry if this has been done before but could find anything?

This is a genuine question,not trying to cause some oldies,newies war

Djing last night at an oldies night,it was advertised along the lines of digging deep & finding a few forgotten things along side some of the better known tunes?

So part way through my set I got the comment from someone of........"These Aren't Oldies".........it was a bit tongue cheek as I know the girl making the comment but I think there was a bit of truth for her behind the smile?

In no particular order............

Sharon Scott-Could It Be You RCA

The Q-That's The Way Hound

Carole Waller-This Love Of Mind USA

Robert Thomas-Salvation Charay

Candy & The Kisses-Out On The Streets Again Scepter

The Wooden Nickles-Nobody But You Omen

Gladys Knight-No One Could Love You More TMG

Lew Kirton-Heaven In The Afternoon Alston

The Philharmonics-I Need,I Need Your Love Soulin'

The Montclairs-Hung Up On Your Love Paula

Emanuel Laskey-I'm A Peace Loving Man Thelma

Jack Montgomery-Do You Believe Scepter

Mike Vickers-On The Brink UK Columbia

Gordon Keith-Look Ahead Calumet

Bunny Sigler-For Cryin' Out Loud Decca

Ketty Lester-Some Things Are Better Left Unsaid RCA

LaVern Baker-Wrapped,Tied & Tangled Brunswick

The Paramount Four-You Don't Know Southern City

Joyce Kennedy-I'm A Good Girl Blue Rock

The Satisfactions-Take It Or Leave It Smash

Anthony & The Aqua Lads-I Remember Goldbee

The Astors-In The Twilight Zone Stax

Gwen Davis-My Man Don't Think I Know SS7

Walter Jackson-It's An Uphill Climb To The Bottom OKeh

 

So my question is "WHEN" does a record become an oldie,what's the criteria,is there any hard & fast rules??

 

I hear tunes played at (upfront)nighters that are Wheel oldies but have stood the test of time & are still accepted with open arms.On the flip side of that you get new releases becoming biggies on the oldies scene?

Cheers

Martyn

Edited September 26, 2015 by hullsoul

[Mellorful]

You pose a good question Martyn, any answer you get will be subjective with no absolute right or wrong.   

Like you I would be interested in the responses, for me personally I take the tunes recorded before the mid 70's as the oldies, rather than the release date.  

Atb

Stu

[Supercorsa]

Interested to know what tunes the young lady was referring to?  ?

[Kevinkent]

You pose a good question Martyn, any answer you get will be subjective with no absolute right or wrong.   

Like you I would be interested in the responses, for me personally I take the tunes recorded before the mid 70's as the oldies, rather than the release date.  

Atb

Stu

I take the tunes played and made popular before the mid 70's as the oldies, rather than the recording or release date.

Like you say, it's all subjective.

- Kev

[hullsoul]

You pose a good question Martyn, any answer you get will be subjective with no absolute right or wrong.   

Like you I would be interested in the responses, for me personally I take the tunes recorded before the mid 70's as the oldies, rather than the release date.  

Atb

Stu

Stu

I agree there's isn't a right or wrong but hopefully we can find some common ground...........for once

My personal view is I gauge a tune becomes an oldie by time from when it was first played on a regular basis,so I think tunes that were played in the 90t's early 00 are becoming oldies?

Patrinell Staten was massive in the 90t's & I think it's an oldie now???

Cheers

Martyn

Interested to know what tunes the young lady was referring to?  ?

I'll add my playlist to my original post as I think that will give people a starting point to discuss?
Cheers

Martyn

[Chatty]

Once RW plays it.

Edited September 26, 2015 by chatty

[Rick Scott]

Hi Martyn, Got to say what you listed as far as i can see are oldies, the problem here is what the person(s)

attending the venue(s)  know about the music we play, more and more i hear the same problem raising its ugly 

head, unless you are playing tracks that are over played or that they have heard same old same old a million times

over, this is what you are going to be up against, people who have not got a clue, sad but true.

[Winsford Soul]

 These days I think it's the DJ playing the tunes that's makes it the oldie or the newie. 

Seriously Martyn. Unless it's a brand new release they must surely be all oldies. Even new discoveries. 

Hope your well 

Steve

 

Edited September 26, 2015 by Winsford Soul

[hullsoul]

Hi Martyn, Got to say what you listed as far as i can see are oldies, the problem here is what the person(s)

attending the venue(s)  know about the music we play, more and more i hear the same problem raising its ugly 

head, unless you are playing tracks that are over played or that they have heard same old same old a million times

over, this is what you are going to be up against, people who have not got a clue, sad but true.

Hi Rick

I agree all oldies to me & thought I'd got it about right with the lesser played ones with the more well known?The one I could see some maybe questioning is The Philharmonics?But a massive nighter tune back in the day & that's when we start to get to your point of peoples knowledge,because it's not filtered down to masses yet so they would not class it as oldie?I heard loads of stuff played last night that are oldies but were new to me.........so what do I class them as...........a new oldies

Take care.

Cheers

Martyn 

Edited September 26, 2015 by hullsoul

[Steve Foran]

It was more clear cut in the 70s due to the turnover of tunes. So something like Leon Haywood was an oldie where as Yvonne Baker was not! Now of course IF I own it I most likely is an oldie. That's because I am an oldie now!  

[hullsoul]

 These days I think it's the DJ playing the tunes that's makes it the oldie or the newie. 

Seriously Martyn. Unless it's a brand new release they must surely be all oldies. Even new discoveries. 

Hope your well 

Steve

 

Steve

I disagree(surprise,surprise ).If an undiscovered tune is played but it was made if 1966 that's not an oldie it's a new tune to the scene?

Cheers

Martyn

[SHEFFSOUL]

simple...once discovered and played during its first flush of being a new 'top sound'..it subsequently becomes an oldie. Of course if you've never heard it before its 'an oldie ive never heard before'..however some 45's were so exclusive that they were considered new/top sounds after their first public exposure eg the twans ' i can't see him again' originally an Ian levine exclusive..was lent out to Sam (maybe others) before Richard Searling bought it, making it massive all over again..(kind of an oldie)..got it..good.

[hullsoul]

simple...once discovered and played during its first flush of being a new 'top sound'..it subsequently becomes an oldie. Of course if you've never heard it before its 'an oldie ive never heard before'..however some 45's were so exclusive that they were considered new/top sounds after their first public exposure eg the twans ' i can't see him again' originally an Ian levine exclusive..was lent out to Sam (maybe others) before Richard Searling bought it, making it massive all over again..(kind of an oldie)..got it..good.

Thanks..........I'll close the thread

I agree with part of what you're saying about once they start the downward slope they are on there way to becoming oldies.What about those tunes that have been around for ages without ever getting any regular plays & then burst into life,take Dottie & Millie & C L Blast massive now but were bit players of the nighter scene in the 90t's..........they are oldies to  me but to most hearing them recently they are new sounds?God I'm confusing myself now (yes I know it's not hard)

Cheers

Martyn

[Steve L]

Martyn, if I went to a typical East Midlands oldies night I would only expect to hear 4 or 5 records from your list.

When I first went to Wigan in 78, oldies were what you would hear in M's or on the monthly oldies nighter plus a few were played in the main room by Dave Evison etc. These were records that had had their hey-day at then Wheel, Torch and the first few years of Wigan.

Logically then an oldie at any point in time should be any record that was big/played/known say 3 or 4 years ago.

Then you have to consider the mass of returnees to the scene over the last 15 years, most of these had stopped going before i started, so the records I mentioned as oldies earlier were, in the main, the only records these people knew. These were the familiar "oldies" that they wanted to hear again and this what that whole scene was built on.

So the term "oldie" in my experience came to have its current meaning. If you played that set at the Grosvenor or Kingsway nights, you'd have an empty dance floor and people chucking their "nighter bags" over their shoulder and walking out -trust me I've seen it 

[Woodbutcher]

When the opening two bars herald a stampede of 40" waisted , beer towel encrusted patch embellished baggies and circle skirts ... 

[Supercorsa]

One mans Oldie is another mans Newie! 

[Chalky]

If they are "newies" then no hope is there

[Zed1]

It becomes an Oldie when you hear it and say 'Oh No - Not Again'.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Zed1

[hullsoul]

Martyn, if I went to a typical East Midlands oldies night I would only expect to hear 4 or 5 records from your list.

When I first went to Wigan in 78, oldies were what you would hear in M's or on the monthly oldies nighter plus a few were played in the main room by Dave Evison etc. These were records that had had their hey-day at then Wheel, Torch and the first few years of Wigan.

Logically then an oldie at any point in time should be any record that was big/played/known say 3 or 4 years ago.

Then you have to consider the mass of returnees to the scene over the last 15 years, most of these had stopped going before i started, so the records I mentioned as oldies earlier were, in the main, the only records these people knew. These were the familiar "oldies" that they wanted to hear again and this what that whole scene was built on.

So the term "oldie" in my experience came to have its current meaning. If you played that set at the Grosvenor or Kingsway nights, you'd have an empty dance floor and people chucking their "nighter bags" over their shoulder and walking out -trust me I've seen it 

Steve

So my cunning plan of starting this thread up & getting my playlist noticed has foiled me breaking into the oldies scene as they won't know my oldies

Seriously though by just the few reply's already I'm starting to think the term "Oldies" means different thing to different people.I thought it was going turn into a debate of how long 2,3,5 or 10 years before it becomes an oldie but it looks like it's about far more then just the year???

Cheers

Martyn

[hullsoul]

If they are "newies" then no hope is there

Chalky

Some of them would have taken you back to your youff,not played or heard Gordon Keith & Joyce Kennedy out for what seems like ever & they sounded brill.

Cheers

Martyn

[Chalky]

Hear Gordon Keith now and then and actually heard Joyce Kennedy not so long ago.  Tis underplayed compared with other stuff. 

Edited September 26, 2015 by chalky

[hullsoul]

It becomes an Oldie when you hear it and say 'Oh No - Not Again'.

Yep defiantly 

Cheers

Martyn

[hullsoul]

One mans Oldie is another mans Newie! 

I think that is going to be more or less what we end up with after we've gone on about for 5 pages

Cheers

Martyn

[KevH]

A proper deep thinkers thread Martyn.? I would like to join in but ....... Nothing wrong with your playlist only Philarmonics could be classed as new . A record becomes an oldie when you turn to your mates and say " remember when blah blah blah " ? 

[SHEFFSOUL]

Thanks..........I'll close the thread

I agree with part of what you're saying about once they start the downward slope they are on there way to becoming oldies.What about those tunes that have been around for ages without ever getting any regular plays & then burst into life,take Dottie & Millie & C L Blast massive now but were bit players of the nighter scene in the 90t's..........they are oldies to  me but to most hearing them recently they are new sounds?God I'm confusing myself now (yes I know it's not hard)

Cheers

Martyn

an oldie is an oldie..if you've never heard it before it's still an oldie..i find loads of sounds every day ive not heard before..most are oldies..new to me but still OLDIES...and that is my stance on oldies...

[Rich B]

On my very first trip to the Casino (August '74) a dj (don't ask me who) announced "It's been about a year since we stopped playing them, so it's time to give them a spin as oldies" and followed it up by playing the Gems and the Four Seasons - the first time it had occurred to me that some records were 'new' and some weren't.

Edited September 26, 2015 by Rich B
grammar

[kevinsoulman]

40+ years on they are all oldies like the rest of us 

kev

 

[hullsoul]

an oldie is an oldie..if you've never heard it before it's still an oldie..i find loads of sounds every day ive not heard before..most are oldies..new to me but still OLDIES...and that is my stance on oldies...

Oldie is an oldie is a bit simplistic isn't it,it's like saying a dog is a dog but that's not right is it?A dog is a Rottweiler or a Chihuahua?

So you're saying it's the timeline of the tune that makes it an oldie & I'm probably in that gang.

But if you are hearing tunes that are new to you how do you know where they belong on that timeline,so they can't be an oldie to you because the timeline starts the day you hear it?

Cheers

Martyn

[hullsoul]

A proper deep thinkers thread Martyn.?

Kev

You sound surprised.......Lynn asked me to post it really,you know she's the one who knows about music in our house 

In my mind it's always been about the timeline of a tune & thought the discussion would have been along those lines but it's evident others view what makes an oldie differently which has surprised me?

Cheers

Martyn

[hullsoul]

40+ years on they are all oldies like the rest of us 

kev

 

Come along Kevin put your zimmer frame down & join in properly

Cheers

Martyn

[KevH]

No tend to agree with you . It's a tough question . 

[Patto]

GOOD thread this makes a change these days to have a question posed that makes you stop and think for a while.I think your playlist Martyn is exccellent by the way.The bulk of it consists of what i associate as being from the 80s and 90s so although obviously oldies they are probabley not classed as such by the average ex Wiganites.Its already been put accross well in the thread that most of these tunes were missed by a lot of  the latest batch of returnees so to them incredibly they may be newies.You hear all kinds of wierd comments when you are out.Ive heard folks say this is a 70s record why dont they play any oldies.Another classic was two guys who said this R&B shite wasnt around back in the day.Just keep playing the stuff you believe in and if you see a guy dancing with a big smile on his face or singing his head off then you have played an OLDIE my son

[Chalky]

Oldie is an oldie is a bit simplistic isn't it,it's like saying a dog is a dog but that's not right is it?A dog is a Rottweiler or a Chihuahua?

So you're saying it's the timeline of the tune that makes it an oldie & I'm probably in that gang.

But if you are hearing tunes that are new to you how do you know where they belong on that timeline,so they can't be an oldie to you because the timeline starts the day you hear it?

Cheers

Martyn

I'd agree with Sheffsoul, the term does relate to a timeline or a period in time no this scene, not one person's knowledge of a record or when that person first hears something.  Yes they are "new" to someone who hasn't heard them but to the majority they relate to a period of time on this scene (or any scene) that was years prior.  Anything else, or as you put it "how do you know where they belong on that timeline" is all down to knowledge.

[Douglaschip]

Great thread Martyn and got us all thinking!

For me an oldie is a record that has been reasonably popular at anytime on the scene and is then played later - inevitably it will be a newie then to people that haven't heard it or don't remember it.  This of course causes the confusion 'one man's oldie is another man's newie' (or woman of course).  For example Ace Spectrum was effectively a newie approx 18 years ago but if you or I heard it out now we would consider it an oldie.  If you have recently returned to the scene and perhaps not been out and about much for 30+ years then all the Stafford / 100 club discoveries that for many are considered oldies will seem like fantastic new discoveries to you.

Bloody complicated and so difficult to just place a timeline on it - a personal timeline I suppose!

Adam

[hullsoul]

I'd agree with Sheffsoul, the term does relate to a timeline or a period in time no this scene, not one person's knowledge of a record or when that person first hears something.  Yes they are "new" to someone who hasn't heard them but to the majority they relate to a period of time on this scene (or any scene) that was years prior.  Anything else, or as you put it "how do you know where they belong on that timeline" is all down to knowledge.

Chalky

I agree as I'm in the timeline gang & that's how I qualify in my head a tune.But surely you can't hear something new (to you) & just say it's an oldie?

I suppose the "when you hear something" disagreement is a slight distraction from the "Oldie" term I was trying to get clarified?What I was trying to find out is when people think it becomes an oldie from been a "newie"??

Cheers

Martyn

[hullsoul]

Great thread Martyn and got us all thinking!

For me an oldie is a record that has been reasonably popular at anytime on the scene and is then played later - inevitably it will be a newie then to people that haven't heard it or don't remember it.  This of course causes the confusion 'one man's oldie is another man's newie' (or woman of course).  For example Ace Spectrum was effectively a newie approx 18 years ago but if you or I heard it out now we would consider it an oldie.  If you have recently returned to the scene and perhaps not been out and about much for 30+ years then all the Stafford / 100 club discoveries that for many are considered oldies will seem like fantastic new discoveries to you.

Bloody complicated and so difficult to just place a timeline on it - a personal timeline I suppose!

Adam

Adam

Complicated!!..........my head hurts 

The personal timeline is probably one for another thread & not quite what I was trying to get at but got distracted?

Cheers

Martyn

[Chalky]

Great thread Martyn and got us all thinking!

For me an oldie is a record that has been reasonably popular at anytime on the scene and is then played later - inevitably it will be a newie then to people that haven't heard it or don't remember it.  This of course causes the confusion 'one man's oldie is another man's newie' (or woman of course).  For example Ace Spectrum was effectively a newie approx 18 years ago but if you or I heard it out now we would consider it an oldie.  If you have recently returned to the scene and perhaps not been out and about much for 30+ years then all the Stafford / 100 club discoveries that for many are considered oldies will seem like fantastic new discoveries to you.

Bloody complicated and so difficult to just place a timeline on it - a personal timeline I suppose!

Adam

I considered Ace Spectrum an oldie 18 years ago, it was in my sets late 80's.  Personally just because someone missed out on a period in time doesn't alter the fact something is still an oldie. I still hear records from a period in time on the scene before I became involved. Although new to me personally it doesn't alter the fact that the record is still considered an oldie historically. 

[SHEFFSOUL]

Oldie is an oldie is a bit simplistic isn't it,it's like saying a dog is a dog but that's not right is it?A dog is a Rottweiler or a Chihuahua?

So you're saying it's the timeline of the tune that makes it an oldie & I'm probably in that gang.

But if you are hearing tunes that are new to you how do you know where they belong on that timeline,so they can't be an oldie to you because the timeline starts the day you hear it?

Cheers

Martyn

no..its common sense..here's another example.. just suppose you'd never heard 'out on the floor' dobie gray. Would it make it a newie? of course not only to your ears..once its been documented ( antique or historical ) or published or made available to the public for the first time thats the start point.You cannot shift the goal post ..even if its a bit obscure..even the most knowledgeable dj,fan or collector will come across a sound at some point that is new to their ears but known to others..and if i seem to make it sound simplistic thats because it is..its a simple question easily answered..all in my opinion of course...

[Sikirby]

Not trying to sound flippant, but surely it's when a Newie to the scene is no longer a Newie ! As all oldies were once yesterday's Newies regardless of the year the track was recorded. And although some oldies may be new to some individuals it doesn't change the fact that they are still oldies.........

[hullsoul]

no..its common sense..here's another example.. just suppose you'd never heard 'out on the floor' dobie gray. Would it make it a newie? of course not only to your ears..once its been documented ( antique or historical ) or published or made available to the public for the first time thats the start point.You cannot shift the goal post ..even if its a bit obscure..even the most knowledgeable dj,fan or collector will come across a sound at some point that is new to their ears but known to others..and if i seem to make it sound simplistic thats because it is..its a simple question easily answered..all in my opinion of course...

But you still haven't answered the question I was trying to get at of "when" does a tune become an oldie?At what point along the timeline does it become an oldie from a newie?

Cheers

Martyn

[KevH]

But we aren't talking about how old a record is are we?? On a soul forum the question surely relates to being played on the soul scene. ? If Dobie Gray hadn't been played before , it would not be an oldie in this context. How long before Mello Souls is an oldie ? After all it's accepted on all fronts now. Considered an old play on the rare scene, but a newie in other quarters . I give up.LOL

[hullsoul]

Not trying to sound flippant, but surely it's when a Newie to the scene is no longer a Newie ! As all oldies were once yesterday's Newies regardless of the year the track was recorded. And although some oldies may be new to some individuals it doesn't change the fact that they are still oldies.........

That's the thing I'm trying to find out............when does a newie stop been a newie & become an oldie?

The when you heard it is a distraction to what I've been trying find out from people.

Cheers

Martyn

[Cunnie]

When does a record become an oldie?

When it get's bootlegged for the masses to play & also when it fetches 10X it's value on Manships auction....

[Sikirby]

I think it's difficult to give it a precise timeline,  as it can depend on how long a record remains popular and on the playlists of dj's before being  dropped for more recent finds. For example  during the seventies and early eighties some Newies would remain current and popular for a year or more when others would be dropped only after a few plays due to bad dance floor reaction, either way these records would become oldies whether forgotten or not. 

But we aren't talking about how old a record is are we?? On a soul forum the question surely relates to being played on the soul scene. ? If Dobie Gray hadn't been played before , it would not be an oldie in this context. How long before Mello Souls is an oldie ? After all it's accepted on all fronts now. Considered an old play on the rare scene, but a newie in other quarters . I give up.

[Guest johnny hart]

Come on down Mr Dave Evison surely the "king" of oldies DJs,what are your thoughts on this enlightened discussion? First at the top Rank hanley then at the Casino Mr Ms,Dave simply leapt from the dance floor with his box of "Cheap and cheerful 50 pencers" and showed the crowd that these forgotten tunes still had mileage,or where unheard to many{this was a time of 3 plays and your out and it was a sin to play a pressing}. But when does this metamorthphosis occur Hullsoul still pleads?  When the premier league DJs find a rarer 50pencer to entrance the dancers and the top tune is relegated and becomes a you guessed it sort of " Northern Evolution Part 2 " by Charlie Darwin [creation records] LOL  Johnny Hart

[Sikirby]

I think it's difficult to give it a precise timeline, as it can depend on how long a record remains popular on the playlists of dj's before being dropped for more recent finds. For example during the seventies and early eighties some Newies would remain current and popular for a year or more whilst others would be dropped only after a few plays  due to bad dance floor reaction, either way these records would become oldies whether forgotten or not. 

[Steve L]

Martyn, as all the answers show - there is no answer to your question……...

[hullsoul]

Martyn, as all the answers show - there is no answer to your question……...

Steve

Thought that would be the case,in one of my early posts I said there wasn't a right or wrong but I was just interested how people choose when a tune becomes an oldie.I've heard a few things that I personally don't consider when deciding for myself

Cheers

Martyn 

[KevH]

Steve

Thought that would be the case,in one of my early posts I said there wasn't a right or wrong but I was just interested how people choose when a tune becomes an oldie.I've heard a few things that I personally don't consider when deciding for myself

Cheers

Martyn 

you mean when Lynn decides ?

[SHEFFSOUL]

But you still haven't answered the question I was trying to get at of "when" does a tune become an oldie?At what point along the timeline does it become an oldie from a newie?

Cheers

Martyn

as a previous poster said , a good yardstick is about 12 months judged from the classic era 73-76 (though many were booted much sooner thus their monster status was shorter) of course some 45's which have remained also unique or one offs maybe two of..can sometimes achieve a lifespan greater and are sometimes not really thought of as an oldie cos they were never hammered to death in the first place, so to simplify once a record has had it spot in the spotlight and then peters out its usually referred to as an oldie..in much the same way as a pop record..there is no exact timeline but 12 months is a good example i think...